[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum

I'm playing the 14 land version with 3 Ichorids and no Dread Return maindeck.
The problem I see with the plan of exploding in the face of Rest in Piece is that you don't always have the nuts and can go off before turn 2, at least that 's the case in my testing. Once they land Rest in Peace it isn't likely to come back from that.

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But if they drop a RiP you are unlikely to recover anyway, unless you drew into a nice hand and they have nothing backing up that RiP. I for one haven't successfully closed out a game after destroying a RiP (Usually claim gets countered or they drop a faster clock right after it). I have won games with tokens generated before RiP came down however.

If you win game 1 you have 1 turn to go off game 2, that's pretty bad yes. But the only way you beat a RiP on T2 is having a claim and open mana, so you have to skip your T1 on that plan. And they might not even drop RiP right away. The other plan is just do your best game 2 and else you have at least two turns in game 3. And they would need a fast RiP again. While it happens it won't happen all the time. I like my chances without claim better than with it, as I won't have to board in extra lands just on the off chance I might need them. That makes the deck unstable and you might just lose to a solitary Gheist.

I don't think "not casting any spells so you don't get beat by the Crypt aspect" is how you beat Rest in Peace.

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Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum

I'm playing the 14 land version with 3 Ichorids and no Dread Return maindeck.

I wouldn't bring in Nether Shadow's neither if I knew that they only boarded in Crypts/Relics, but the problem is: How shall I know?

It would be nice if we could collect some telling cards of the opponents, which give a hint at what they could board in against us.
For example: If I see Snapcaster Mage or Young Pyromancer, I will board in the Shadows and Dread Returns because it is likely that they play Extractions as their graveyard hate of choice.
I always board in the Claims against decks with white, because Rest in Piece is THE hate card you can run when you play white.
Feel free to add some more points to the list ;)

Perhaps I'm just overboarding and my fear of hate cards is unreasonably big :P

The problem I see with the plan of exploding in the face of Rest in Piece is that you don't always have the nuts and can go off before turn 2, at least that 's the case in my testing. Once they land Rest in Peace it isn't likely to come back from that.

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I'm pretty sure boarding Nature's Claim is just worse than boarding Thoughtseize vs any deck playing White, mainly because if they don't draw Rest in Peace then Nature's Claim is worthless while Thoughtseize is going to either strip their Thalia, Zenith, Ooze, Shaman, counter or cantrip etc, any "answer" that doesn't inherently accelerate the deck (shit like Firestorm or Darkblast that kill a creature and discard a dredger or dredge) or deccelerate your opponent is going to be pretty suspect fwiw.

RIPs main problem is that it costs 2, the only card you actually need a direct answer for is Cage, and nobody really plays that and even if they did they don't play it in sizeable numbers.

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Originally Posted by Minosse

Thanks for your answer.

Can I ask which is your maindeck and how do you generally sideboard on G2 depending on the opponent's deck?


Thanks,
ML

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//LANDS-14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

//CREATURES-22
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp

//SPELLS-24
4 Faithless Looting
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamon

//SIDEBOARD-15
2 Dread Return
2 Iona Shield of Emeria
2 Ashen Ghoul
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
1 Putrid Imp
2 Ancient Grudge


This is where I'm at right now, the only thing set in stone for me is the main deck. If you read a page or so back I brought up how I really feel like the sideboard is a giant waste of effort. In my opinion there is no effective antihate really available, and I've hit a brick wall as far as innovations go. I can't really give you sideboarding advice as of now because I'm still trying to figure out what I like best, and I have extremely minimal time for testing at the moment.

The cards in bold are the ones I hate to bring in, because the only card they can even answer efficiently is Leyline of the Void, which nobody plays. Against Crypt/Cage/Spellbomb I found the best way to beat it is by simply not bringing in answers. I do usually bring in the Dread Returns and the Grudges, that's it. The Ionas have proven to be pretty versatile against a lot of decks I expect to face like Elves, TES, ANT, High Tide, and even Reanimator. The Ghouls and Dread Returns come in against Extraction. Against decks that aren't very fast I usually take out Breakthroughs first, maybe an Ichorid, then LEDs. It's important to not dilute the deck.

I've been having decent results with NO sideboarding at all. I won a lot of games on the draw, post board, against Shardless BUG. Out of 20 games I won 13, which is pretty good considering the BUG list had 4 FoW, 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Flusterstorm, 4 Deathrite, 3 Nihil Spellbomb, and a Maelstrom Pulse. So against those decks, I'm pretty comfortable just not bringing anything in.

Its a concept tried and true. GO FEARLESS!!

Yah that's the option that I'm seriously leaning towards, goin to a GPT to try and pick up some duals and 3 byes on the 12th. Wish me luck, I'm gonna need it because I'm very rusty when it comes to Legacy seeing as there's no decent Legacy scene here anymore. It died off along with half my team lol.

Do you have any thoughts on Iona vs Griselbrand + Ray of Revelation for the Show&Tell + Leyline of Sanctity match up? I usually find Iona is a little lackluster vs RUG and Blade compared to Griselbrand, where boarding Ray of Revelation by itself vs Show&Tell isn't that big of a commitment and it's fairly useful vs random shit like Ghostly Prison.

I think 4 Breakthrough is too many, that card is really "gold fishy," and I don't think you should ever SB in draw spells unless you're on the draw and can use your DDD strategy.

Trying to answer Rest in Peace is a losing battle, unlike Grafdigger's Cage, the problem with removing Rest in Peace from the board is that more often than not it's damage has already been done - you've lost your graveyard regardless.

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Originally Posted by Que

Its a concept tried and true. GO FEARLESS!!

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Seeing that i almost never board in my 3 Chain of Vapor, yes, I do agree that it's time to go fearless

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Do you have any thoughts on Iona vs Griselbrand + Ray of Revelation for the Show&Tell + Leyline of Sanctity match up? I usually find Iona is a little lackluster vs RUG and Blade compared to Griselbrand, where boarding Ray of Revelation by itself vs Show&Tell isn't that big of a commitment and it's fairly useful vs random shit like Ghostly Prison.

I think 4 Breakthrough is too many, that card is really "gold fishy," and I don't think you should ever SB in draw spells unless you're on the draw and can use your DDD strategy.

Trying to answer Rest in Peace is a losing battle, unlike Grafdigger's Cage, the problem with removing Rest in Peace from the board is that more often than not it's damage has already been done - you've lost your graveyard regardless.

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I only want Iona because I'm positive there is going to be Goblins, Elves, AnT, TES, Omnitell and probably even High Tide & Reanimator at this event. To me, her versatility is pretty astounding just considering the matchups where she is super strong. I probably wouldn't bring in any DR targets against RUG or Blade, because I think Grave Troll does a good enough job there and I want to side out the least amount of cards possible. In every matchup.

It's funny you bring up the Breakthrough count, because I've been thinking about going to 3 in favor of the 4th Imp, which would also free up a board slot. I'm not sure if I like Ray of Revelation much, it can kill random stuff like Moat, Humility, Ghostly Prison, Sneak Attack, and even Rest in Peace (although your gy still gets exiled) but it seems to low impact to really be justifiable.

I've also been doing a lot of brainstorming on Thoughtseize as a preemptive answer against not only RiP, but other combo decks(elves included). Just slowing them down for a turn or two could prove to be very beneficial. With 8 or maybe even 9 discard effects, this should be quite possible. Against RiP decks, I'd probably board the discard out if we go to game 3 and I happen to be on the play (most likely). It seems like it's our best chance game two because even if we explode on turn 1, we still have to hit at least a Narcomoeba and a Therapy.

I think going Fearless has some pretty big benefits in this meta. Trying to play reactive against Deathrite decks that pack countermagic an additional hate in their sideboards only slows us down. Which in turn makes Deathrite a VERY relevant threat. I think it's pretty hard to hold back draw spells and such just hoping for the right cards to come together off the top of our deck, because it just gives our opponent time to sculpt a better hand with their superior cantrips and draw power. Testing against BUG has taught me beating a Shaman has to come quick, sitting back simply gives them time to get countermagic up. Or worse, a Crypt effect.

EDIT- 600th post WOOT!!!

If I were to go fearless, I'd do something like this:

Main: I agree here: Quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return.

Sideboard:
4 Firestorm (Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Mid range, Beatdown)
4 Lotus Petal (Race combo)
1 Ancient Grudge (Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, etc)
1 Legacy Weapon (Or whatever with the same hability. Painter-Stone, High Tide, etc)
1 Ichorid (Mid range, Beatdown)
1 Dread Return (Targets)
1 Ashen Rider (New and improved Bald Angel. Lands, Blazing Archon, Enchantments, well, pretty much anything)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (Elves, Goblins, Merfolks, etc)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (High Tide, Burn, Combo, etc)

Still debating on Firestorm, though. If I'd remove them, I'd probably replace for something against Mid range as well: +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Tarnished Citadel +2 Ashen Ghoul.

I also want to go fearless in G2, and eventually board Claim in G3, but only in case I lost G2 due to RiP or something similar.
But I think that in case the opponent does not have counters, it is better to become faster to explode on turn 1.
For example, on a recent tournament I won a G2 vs maverick with turn 1 breakthrough + led, cabal for RiP...
I'm thinking about something like:
-4 gemstone mine + 4 lotus petal
-1 golgari thug, -1 careful study -1 putrid imp +1 dread return +2 reanimation targets

My fear is that every turn that passes on G2 it becomes riskier that they will find hate, so probably the better bet is just trying to explode.

If they have counters it's stupid to try to use led or breakthrough and just lose, so I will probably try the "safer route":
-4 LED
-4 breakthrough
+1 ichorid
(+ ashen ghoul + paradise?)
+4 firestorm

and maybe DDD on turn 1.

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Originally Posted by Minosse

-4 gemstone mine + 4 lotus petal

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I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here. There is no reason for trading 4 Lotus Petal for 4 Gemstone Mine. Ultimately you want to be able to have 2 manas on turn 1, so what you just did is placing a worst version of Gemstone Mine in (only one counter).

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree here. There is no reason for trading 4 Lotus Petal for 4 Gemstone Mine. Ultimately you want to be able to have 2 manas on turn 1, so what you just did is placing a worst version of Gemstone Mine in (only one counter).

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Yeah, I'm unsure what to sb-out for petals and I've a tourney this saturday! Suggestions?

I'm also thinking about this sb:
3 firestorm
3 thoughtseize
3 petal
1 dread return
2 ashen rider
2 nether shadow
1 ancient grudge

g2 I can board:
-4 led
-4 break
+3 thought
+2 nether
+2/3 firestorm
+0/1 grudge

While g3:
-1 putrid
-1 careful
-1 thug
-3 X???
+1 dread
+2 ashen
+3 petal

I want to try with ashen rider as single reanimation target because it seems to be the one working best on average, and 2 give me a "decent" possibility to have an answer vs turn 3 omniscience.

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

If I were to go fearless, I'd do something like this:

Main: I agree here: Quadlazer -1 Ichorid +1 Dread Return.

Sideboard:
4 Firestorm (Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze, Mid range, Beatdown)
4 Lotus Petal (Race combo)
1 Ancient Grudge (Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, etc)
1 Legacy Weapon (Or whatever with the same hability. Painter-Stone, High Tide, etc)
1 Ichorid (Mid range, Beatdown)
1 Dread Return (Targets)
1 Ashen Rider (New and improved Bald Angel. Lands, Blazing Archon, Enchantments, well, pretty much anything)
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (Elves, Goblins, Merfolks, etc)
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (High Tide, Burn, Combo, etc)

Still debating on Firestorm, though. If I'd remove them, I'd probably replace for something against Mid range as well: +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Tarnished Citadel +2 Ashen Ghoul.

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I would play Memory's Journey instead of Legacy Weapon, although neither of them are good against Tide because they just make you draw your deck nowadays.

I've decided against Firestorm for the time being. I just think it requires you to side out to many cards. Also, notice how Iona is just as good, if not better, than Elesh in the matchups where you want the Cenobite.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

I would play Memory's Journey instead of Legacy Weapon, although neither of them are good against Tide because they just make you draw your deck nowadays.

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But then there is Painter-Stone and rogues. But yeah, the card is arguable.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

I've decided against Firestorm for the time being. I just think it requires you to side out to many cards.

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The problem about not running Firestorm is that there are many Tier 1 decks in the format right now that exploit DRS. BUG, JUND, Stoneblade...
We can always consider Running a 2-2 Split of Darkblast and Thug, though (and forgeting about Ooze).

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Also, notice how Iona is just as good, if not better, than Elesh in the matchups where you want the Cenobite.

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Iona may note save you if your opponent has a lot of elves or goblin at the table. But I can't say Elesh is a MUST have.

Firestorm is for putting stuff in the GY against blue decks or wiping out tribal board presence. It's not to combat DRS. A lone DRS won't stop you unless you have kept a sketchy hand or are just very unlucky. Just don't run DR if you are facing too many DRS.

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

But then there is Painter-Stone and rogues. But yeah, the card is arguable.

The problem about not running Firestorm is that there are many Tier 1 decks in the format right now that exploit DRS. BUG, JUND, Stoneblade...
We can always consider Running a 2-2 Split of Darkblast and Thug, though (and forgeting about Ooze).

Iona may note save you if your opponent has a lot of elves or goblin at the table. But I can't say Elesh is a MUST have.

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Memory's Journey is pretty nuts against Painter as well because it gives you one more turn to bring back all your Ichorids and hopefully finish them off. Their fundamental turn is a little later than ours so this should usually be enough.

I agree Iona might not stop goblins every time, especially if they have a Vial, but she stops Elves dead in their tracks. All they have is mana producers, the only threats they could possibly have are Deathrites, which we can easily outrace at that point.

I agree with the above that Firestorm isn't really that great of an answer to Shaman and Scooze. It can work, yeah, but those cards are too slow more often than not. Or they can be overwhelmed if we have a good hand.

I really don't like Darkblast in Dredge, dredge 3 is a lot worse than dredge 4. It's also a very weak answer to Shaman, I find it's easiest to just have two dredgers go to your gy at the same time and hopefully dredge into more gas.

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Originally Posted by tyriion

Firestorm is for putting stuff in the GY against blue decks or wiping out tribal board presence. It's not to combat DRS. A lone DRS won't stop you unless you have kept a sketchy hand or are just very unlucky. Just don't run DR if you are facing too many DRS.

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Yeah that's kind of BS considering no one ever played Firestorm MD before Deathrite Shaman was printed, I think the purpose of the card is pretty clear.

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Originally Posted by tyriion

Firestorm is for putting stuff in the GY against blue decks or wiping out tribal board presence. It's not to combat DRS. A lone DRS won't stop you unless you have kept a sketchy hand or are just very unlucky. Just don't run DR if you are facing too many DRS.

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So any hand that you won't go nuts you call sketchy and unlucky? I must be very unluck, because the way I see it, any hand without LED (or petal) to enable discarding and drawing at T1 (therefore placing lots of cards in graveyard), would require 2 dredgers for you to be able to dredge the following turn against a T1 DRS.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Memory's Journey is pretty nuts against Painter as well.

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For me the problem about Memory's Journey is that it's not static, you have to have the rainbow land untapped to save you, and holding yourself back to keep it that way, may result in your graveyard not being able to swing for the win the next turn. But as I said, it IS a viable option.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

I really don't like Darkblast in Dredge, dredge 3 is a lot worse than dredge 4. It's also a very weak answer to Shaman, I find it's easiest to just have two dredgers go to your gy at the same time and hopefully dredge into more gas.

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I agree it's worse than dredge 4. Besides, that was me trying not to disagree completely with you...=p Of course it's weak, since DRS can remove it before you dredge to your hand and cast on it. I forgot that while trying not to sound like a douche.

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Originally Posted by indefinite.soul

For me the problem about Memory's Journey is that it's not static, you have to have the rainbow land untapped to save you, and holding yourself back to keep it that way, may result in your graveyard not being able to swing for the win the next turn. But as I said, it IS a viable option.

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You cast it during your upkeep after getting milled.