[Primer] Nic Fit

@Echelon That list does deviate from mine a bit. I cut the some of the creatures to go up on interaction. My base assumption with Rhino fit was always that I'll win the game if my opponent doesn't. This can lead to an grueling grind fest but going up on discard and removal meant that a siege rhino or 2 was always enough. But that just happened to be my interpretation of the deck.

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Originally Posted by Brael

The problem here is that there's not enough Nissa's that play well together. There's only two good ones, and possibly a third with the GU version... if you can maintain a high enough creature count.

Vastwood Seer and Vital Force play well together, but none of the other Nissa's really get along. If you want PW tribal I think you would have better luck with Garruk in green, or just play Gideons.

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Garruks might play better together, I'm mostly playing Nissa's because I already have the Nissa's. That being said, several of the Nissa's do 1 thing, make lands creatures. Exploring the theme of manlands I'm starting with the following.

The deck is very much a stylized rock style GB deck, now the top end just happens to be planeswalkers that make lands into hastey attackers.

I'm also already aware of the nombo of pernicious deed with land creatures, hopefully I find myself in magical christmas land next week, but I may swap out some deeds for deluge or other wrath's that might save me.

//Creatues
4 Veteren Explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 Nissa Vastwood Seer
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Dryad Arbor

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Cabal therapy
2 abrupt decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood

//Art.&Enct.
3 Pernicious deed
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Nissa Worldwaker

//Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty
2 Polluted Delta

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

//Creatues
4 Veteren Explorer
2 deathrite shaman
1 Nissa Vastwood Seer
4 Sylvan Advocate
1 Dryad Arbor

//Inst.&Sorc.
4 Cabal therapy
2 abrupt decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Hymn
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Innocent Blood

//Art.&Enct.
3 Pernicious deed
4 Oath of Nissa
2 Sylvan Library

//Planeswalkers
2 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Nissa, Worldwaker

//Lands
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Island
3 Bayou
2 Treetop Village
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty
2 Polluted Delta

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The nissa theme is cute, but I'd rather have Trackers over the Advocates - they play alongside lands just the same, except leave you with value. Not as weak to Deed/Angler either. Nissa Worldwaker could way more easily be...Ob Nixilis Reignited to clear the path or draw more cards. BTW, his ultimate is exceedingly hilarious alongside Nissa VF's ultimate. I've see that happen on a stream before.

Liliana, the Last Hope would also fix the Strix/Angler issue btw. If you are absolutely bent on playing Advocates.

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Originally Posted by Brael

14 of each color is generally the baseline for your opening hand. Unfortunately for you, you have other curve considerations to consider. For example if you want to curve Vet into Hymn you're going to need to play Bayou into Swamp, and you only have 10 ways to play a GB land on T1, which means your G into BB hands are going to be weak, you also have few ways to open on Forest since you're base black.

Basically, there's a reason the Lands decks are playing Mox Diamond. It's the only way to make their mana work.

And I'm still not sure what Vet is doing here since you're not really ramping into anything.

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Deed/GSZ/Primeval Titan/Thragtusk. Only 7 bombs...not enough?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Deed/GSZ/Primeval Titan/Thragtusk. Only 7 bombs...not enough?

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More like, your list looks to me like it just durdles a lot. Discard is strong when backed by a clock, but I'm not really seeing a clock in your deck that can take advantage of making your opponent stumble.

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Originally Posted by Brael

More like, your list looks to me like it just durdles a lot. Discard is strong when backed by a clock, but I'm not really seeing a clock in your deck that can take advantage of making your opponent stumble.

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Good point. I suppose disruption into Depths, instead of more traditional threats, is the real issue? Mostly because I am disrupting into (hopefully!) a combo rather than a more reliable way to win the game (because I don't have filtering to ensure the combo)?

EDIT: this is worded weird, sorry for that. Should I just jam different threats because Depths combo is a distraction/too unreliable?

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Originally Posted by square_two

The nissa theme is cute, but I'd rather have Trackers over the Advocates - they play alongside lands just the same, except leave you with value. Not as weak to Deed/Angler either. Nissa Worldwaker could way more easily be...Ob Nixilis Reignited to clear the path or draw more cards. BTW, his ultimate is exceedingly hilarious alongside Nissa VF's ultimate. I've see that happen on a stream before.

Liliana, the Last Hope would also fix the Strix/Angler issue btw. If you are absolutely bent on playing Advocates.

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I think I've been tunnel visioned on exploiting the new planeswalker rule that I've simply constructed a borse version of vet. walkers.

You might be right in that I should cut the bad nissa's for better walkers and go that way with it. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

More like, your list looks to me like it just durdles a lot. Discard is strong when backed by a clock, but I'm not really seeing a clock in your deck that can take advantage of making your opponent stumble.

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I largely agree with this. If you're running a ton of disruption then you need to be able to turn a corner quick and close out the game. That's why I like the DD plan even if NicPost is the better DD nic fit deck. Personally, I would try to push the DD, thespian's stage a little more. If you can close out the game with a 20/20 on turn 3 or turn 10 then life is good.

@Mr. Safety
I needed to see your post because it's a thought experiment I also want to figure out.

I'll work with Junk-Fit, as that's what I prefer to run with. From what I've gathered, Turbo Depths can be broken down to ~11 combo pieces (dd/stage/hex) / ~11 tutors / ~11 protection (discard/needle). On the flipside, Maverick frequently runs DD/Stage as a 2-card package. Sometimes crop rotation is in the mix.

Where does that leave Nic Fit? I'm coming from a perspective we can continue to play Nic Fit with the upside of a combo. This philosophy may be something others disagree with, but it's something @Arianrhod taught me about SneakyFit. Just do your usual business...and oops we have sequence that nets us a 20/20. If you want more of the combo than Nic Fit, go for it. If you really want the combo, I'd argue you're better off playing pure Turbo Depths.

I feel we can safely incorporate a 2 card combo, a la Maverick. However, I'd like to pursue a 4 card combo package for this discussion. Since we're talking about packages *eyeroll at sexual inuendo*, let's talk Vampire Hexmage. I don't like her here. She works well in turbo because of petal + their philosophy to combo immediately or die. Don't get me wrong, she's playable but not ideal. I also don't want Urborg in the manabase -- it's tight as is. Hexmage also has a tendency to durdle until DD appears, which isn't "good enough" IMO. The same situation is true for alternative enablers from the newer set(s) such as mirror and solemnity. They don't really do anything to advance the actual Nic Fit plan.

I think the first step is configuring the manabase. Then we can select choices.

24 lands (23 + arbor)
7 fetch
2 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
2 DD
2 Stage
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 savannah --> or steppe
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
1 dryad arbor

*sejiri steppe and ghost quarter strong considerations

36 slots remain. Turbo Depths uses ~11 tutors and ~11 protection to force the combo or die. We don't need to strictly adhere to these amounts. So to start, I think it's safe to include Crop Rotation. Rotation also grabs tower in g1 and possible sb lands like bog or another karakas g2/g3. If we want additional tutors, we're looking at a thin list: sylvan scrying, expedition map, or into the north. We can open up the pool with more obscure choices like diabolic edict, prime-time, and knight of the reliquary. Prime-Time is an auto-include here as well. I'm not a fan of diabolic, but I fanboy all over Knight. She's a great mid-range weapon with land-tutoring upside. In terms of protection, we'll already be running cabal therapy. To compliment, we can run discard (pro-active) or removal (reactive). Junk can play PTE/STP whereas pure BG has slimmer pickings. Hymn is fantastic, but rough on casting cost for junk. Fatal Push is another contender -- but it's worthless against bigger boom booms. Sweepers like deed give us tremendous momentum as a deck. Lets round out the list with standard Nic Fit inclusions.

/24 lands

*arbor
4 veteran explorer
2 deathrite
1 scavenging ooze
1 witness
3 kotr
1 thragtusk
1 prime-time
1 titania, p.o.a
1 sylvan safekeeper
/15

4 gsz
4 crop rotation
4 therapy
3 deed
3 swords to plowshares (alt. thoughtseize)
2 abrupt decay
1 nissa, vital force
/21

*Honorable mentions: leovold, sigarda, vindicate, toxic d, titans, land-tutors, loam.

The list isn't perfect, but it should get ideas stirring. All creatures are zenithable.
I guess I could be more BG and have only KotR as the sole white card. I'd shift the mana around to have a very solid BG game + karakas/2 duals/1 plains.
If you wanted to increase the combo nature of this list, you have to decrease some of the removal "protection" and up the tutors. If you think I'm loud wrong about Hexmage, her inclusion comes at the expense of what I listed.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Stuff

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Good point. I suppose disruption into Depths, instead of more traditional threats, is the real issue? Mostly because I am disrupting into (hopefully!) a combo rather than a more reliable way to win the game (because I don't have filtering to ensure the combo)?

EDIT: this is worded weird, sorry for that. Should I just jam different threats because Depths combo is a distraction/too unreliable?

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You may be interested in this
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1015935

I'll be off for a couple of days. Back on wednesday.

Edit: On an unrelated note - there are so many hipsters in Vienna! Oh, and the schnitzels are huge. And delicious.

Salutations everyone, I've been observing this forum for sometime now, and this Depths shell has peaked my interest since it's inception here a few months ago and was inspired by bobmans list to build one of my own. Seeing now that the Depths shell is picking up some steam I'd like to throw my list into the mix to try and stir the pot.

Maindeck 61

Lands 22
x3 Verdant Catacombs
x2 Windswept Heath
x2 Bayou
x1 Savannah
x1 Scrubland
x3 Forest
x2 Swamp
x1 Plains
x1 Dryad Arbor
x1 Thespian Stage
x1 Dark Depths
x1 Phyrexian Tower
x1 Bojuka Bog
x1 Karakas
x1 Wasteland

Creature Spells 17
x4 Veteran Explorer
x1 Deathrite Shaman
x1 Sylvan Safekeeper
x1 Gaddock Teeg
x1 Eternal Witness
x1 Ramunap Excavator
x2 Knight of the Reliquary
x2 Tireless Tracker
x1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
x1 Thragtusk
x1 Titania Protector of Argoth
x1 Primeval Titan

Non-creature spells 22
x4 Green Sun's zenith
x4 Cabal Therapy
x3 Crop Rotation
x3 Path to exile
x2 Sylvan Library
x2 Diabolic Intent
x3 Pernicious Deed
x1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (Catered to LGS meta)
x1 Engineered Explosives
x1 Cavern of souls
x1 Relic of Progenitus
x2 Thoughtsieze
x1 Surgical Extraction
x1 Circle of protection: Red
x1 Ethersworn Canonist
x2 Containment Priest
x1 Lost Legacy
x1 Pulse of Murasa
x1 Vindicate
x1 Toxic Deluge
x1 Nissa Vital Force

Titania + Safekeeper steals games

Trackers seem grind out games where you fail to combo off with Explorer

Teeg is the main as a desperate play to try and win game 1's against fast combo decks and new miracles

Meren, Excavator, Wasteland and Intent #2 feel like they can flexed out

Volraths Stronghold, Maze of Ith are under consideration

Yay or nay?

@Fonzdizon: you're the one who's been playing it (or perhaps not) , you tell us. :) With that said I've been playing Leshrac's Cloudpost list and have been making changes pulling it slightly in the fair direction (less Cloudpost reliance but still using them). So I think the green land related creatures coupled with crop rotation and depths+stage seems strong in itself, I'm guessing your list works just fine. Try Leshrac's or my list and see how it feels. Apart from the Cloudposts some differences are 4 Trackers and 2 Veterans, which makes sense considering the posts (more mana for trackers, less reliance on Veterans due to alternate ramp). And you run more removal while his list goes bigger. And the safekeeper with ramunap backup seem good too. Maybe I'll try your list soon.

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Originally Posted by fonzdizon

Yay or nay?

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I like most of it. I think the white is unnecessary though, same goes for Wasteland.

I would rather play something like this
Lands 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creature Spells 17
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Titania Protector of Argoth
1 Primeval Titan

Non-creature spells 22
4 Green Sun's zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Crop Rotation
2 Fatal Push
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Maelstrom Pulse

I actually used to play something similar, I went 12-0 in a paper league with it in the swiss, then 2-0 in the top 4. It won me an Underground Sea. It did well enough, but I found myself not actually using the DD combo very much, it was just there... in that league I think it was only relevant in 2 games. I think you need to be more dedicated to the combo to make it useful.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I actually used to play something similar, I went 12-0 in a paper league with it in the swiss, then 2-0 in the top 4. It won me an Underground Sea. It did well enough, but I found myself not actually using the DD combo very much, it was just there... in that league I think it was only relevant in 2 games. I think you need to be more dedicated to the combo to make it useful.

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That seems fantastic, 12-0? Why did you stop playing it? And what were your matchups? I may try that list too.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

That seems fantastic, 12-0? Why did you stop playing it? And what were your matchups? I may try that list too.

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The exact list is posted in the thread somewhere, it was a league I played in last spring. I stopped playing it because SDT got banned, and it forced me to rethink things. Fortunately I was already cutting SDT, but removing the last 2 still messed things up.

Now, I play similar lists but without the DD plan at all.

I don't remember the exact matches anymore, but I wrote about them at the time, so they're in this thread somewhere. Actually, come to think of it... the record might have been 10-0-2 or something. All I really remember now is that I went undefeated.

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Originally Posted by Brael

The exact list is posted in the thread somewhere, it was a league I played in last spring. I stopped playing it because SDT got banned, and it forced me to rethink things. Fortunately I was already cutting SDT, but removing the last 2 still messed things up.

Now, I play similar lists but without the DD plan at all.

I don't remember the exact matches anymore, but I wrote about them at the time, so they're in this thread somewhere. Actually, come to think of it... the record might have been 10-0-2 or something. All I really remember now is that I went undefeated.

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I checked the thread due to being curious at the list, it's probably this one right? It has a little less focus on the land package than I thought [edit: it seems to be 2 Crops, 2 Trackers and a Courser in the main and Depths + Stage in the sideboard].

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1006008

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Originally Posted by pettdan

I checked the thread due to being curious at the list, it's probably this one right? It has a little less focus on the land package than I thought [edit: it seems to be 2 Crops, 2 Trackers and a Courser in the main and Depths + Stage in the sideboard].

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1006008

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Scroll back, I linked it.

Based on feedback, I've dropped cards and reworked my list to be Gbw. I still want to emphasize Depths, so its got some tutor emphasis with Knight/Crop Rotation/Primeval Titan. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice on how to tweak from here. I think my biggest problem was trying to cram Hymn/Wasteland into the deck, which wasn't exactly productive (especially in testing.) So here is where I'm at with my list, similar to the list linked a few posts above from Brael. I don't have some of the lands, but I think I can get started with this and move forward from here as I get ahold of the right cards.

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x verdant catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
3x windswept heath
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
2x Pithing Needle
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Choke
1x Lost Legacy
1x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Based on feedback, I've dropped cards and reworked my list to be Gbw. I still want to emphasize Depths, so its got some tutor emphasis with Knight/Crop Rotation/Primeval Titan. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice on how to tweak from here. I think my biggest problem was trying to cram Hymn/Wasteland into the deck, which wasn't exactly productive (especially in testing.) So here is where I'm at with my list, similar to the list linked a few posts above from Brael. I don't have some of the lands, but I think I can get started with this and move forward from here as I get ahold of the right cards.

4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Primeval Titan
1x Thragtusk
1x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Pernicious Deed
4x Crop Rotation
1x Life from the Loam
2x Green Sun’s Zenith
2x Sylvan Library
2x Swords to Plowshares

4x verdant catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
3x windswept heath
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Swamp
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Wasteland
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian’s Stage
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Maze of Ith
1x Dryad Arbor

2x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
2x Pithing Needle
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Choke
1x Lost Legacy
1x Karakas
1x Gaddock Teeg

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Maverick/Aggro Loam decks are out of my wheel house but wouldn't this list benefit from adding a ramunap excavator and a land that draws cards (horizon canopy/scattered groves/Tranquil Thicket)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Based on feedback, I've dropped cards and reworked my list to be Gbw. I still want to emphasize Depths, so its got some tutor emphasis with Knight/Crop Rotation/Primeval Titan. Beyond that, I'm looking for advice on how to tweak from here. I think my biggest problem was trying to cram Hymn/Wasteland into the deck, which wasn't exactly productive (especially in testing.) So here is where I'm at with my list, similar to the list linked a few posts above from Brael. I don't have some of the lands, but I think I can get started with this and move forward from here as I get ahold of the right cards.

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I would drop a Crop Rotation and Life from the Loam for 2 more GSZ.

Loam will become Excavator, and I could easily drop a Crop Rotation for another GSZ. I want some way to recur the Depths combo, whether it be Loam or Excavator, and Excavator obviously works better with GSZ. I was thinking 4 Crops is probably too many as well, especially when KotR is a much better engine. I like the instant speed grave hate and other utility lands, but 4 does seem excessive. I can get GSZ #4 in there by cutting to 1 Library. Thanks for the feedback! I think my mana-base is fairly solid, based on your '14 initial sources' feedback. I have 14 green sources, 14 black, and 11 white sources. White is a little thin, but its a fairly light splash.

@Kobra_D: Loam is just a placeholder until I get a Ramanup Excavator, and the synergy is so loose with only 1 Loam that I wouldn't go there anyways. I would probably stuff in a Sejiri Steppe before that, or just maindeck the Karakas. Horizon Canopy is fine, but not Tranquil Thicket.