[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Mishra's Factory is never a problem and Dreadnought usually comes down before Tinkerer and after that you don't get to stick it. You can't rely on it to come down before Dreadnought if you play one. So I would cut Tinkerer, he's awful in almost every matchup and even against Dreadstill where he's supposed to shine he is awful most of the time. He's not even worth the sideboard space.

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Uh, how often does Dreadstill actually have a turn 2 Dreadnought? Generally they have to spend a turn or two of sculpting their hand before that And even then, you can hardcast it, take one hit and be in time even on the draw. Also, being able to keep Countertop-decks replaying their Top is very handy in conjuction with Wasteland and Port.

Oh, and killing Vial from Merfolk or the mirror is pretty huge. And while not that omnipresent, Jitte is still around and kicks your arse if it gets going - better kill it. And breaking Moxes of the Diamond-variety is often a key to beating Aggro Loam and Stax, while the Chrome-variety is often integral to the Stompy-decks. And Chalice at 1 bones you if it comes out turn 1; breaking it and dropping Vial is a lifesaver.

And Factory can definitely be relevant when you can't get Vial to stick and thus have to run your card advantage Goblins through counters. Sure, Gempalm is preferable, but lacking that, Tinkerer is a lifesaver. Also deals with the whole Crucible-nonsense if the game goes midgame.


I definitely disagree with your assessment here; I've found Tinkerer quite useful quite often. Hell, I've even won games because of 0/1 Tinkerer swinging with Pile under Plague (of course, that only makes him better than X/1s, but still).

Well sure if you run 3 or 4 Tinkerers they are great as they serve as pro active disruption, as a 1 of its reactive. A Dreadstill player will have permission for your Matron -> Tinkerer cascade. Pro actively playing Matron for Tinkerer seems bad as well, it means you play terribly slow. I would prefer Matron for Piley against Merfolk every time I guess.
Factory has never been an issue with Port, Waste and Incinerator.

Against Stax and Stompy its good but those decks make up just a tiny percentage of the metagame. Against Aggro Loam playing Matrob for Tinkerer means Goyf, DD, Assault and Vore will stomp you while you are busy neutering their Mox...

As a 3 or 4 of main or side I could see an argument depending on the meta, but a reactive one of plan is just terrible.

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Originally Posted by Mantis

Well sure if you run 3 or 4 Tinkerers they are great as they serve as pro active disruption, as a 1 of its reactive. A Dreadstill player will have permission for your Matron -> Tinkerer cascade. Pro actively playing Matron for Tinkerer seems bad as well, it means you play terribly slow. Merfolk is the most unfair MU I have ever seen, also I would prefer Matron for Piley there anyway.
Factory has never been an issue with Port, Waste and Incinerator.

Against Stax and Stompy its good but those decks make up just a tiny percentage of the metagame. Against Aggro Loam playing Matrob for Tinkerer means Goyf, DD, Assault and Vore will stomp you while you are busy neutering their Mox...

As a 3 or 4 of main or side I could see an argument depending on the meta, but a reactive one of plan is just terrible.

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It's pretty functional as a 2-of main with one more on the side. That's the set-up I've been running. But you're right, it's not amazing as a tutor target.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but I sort of like Gemstone Caverns so far in testing. I can't decide if I want to run one or two. I did hit both of them when I ran two one time, which was sort of a pain in the ass, but I like how often I hit it with one.

Of the times I had Gemstone Caverns in my opening hand on the draw in testing (9 out of 20, but that seems a little high. Some math nerd, what's the actual probability here?), I was able to make easy decisions as to what to remove based on my hand. I removed land three times (Including the other Gemstone Caverns once), a Lackey twice (When I had no removal backing him up), a Siege-Gang (When I had two), and I forget what else.

It's allowed me turn one Frogtossers on the draw, which has been nice. It's also allowed me turn one Weirdings against fast aggro decks. I've also dropped Piledrivers and aggro accelerated Gempalms.

It's not drawbackless, though. A couple games I wanted it to produce red when it didn't so bad that it might have cost me the game. So I'll keep testing.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Some math nerd, what's the actual probability here?

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22% of it being in your starting 7 on the draw playing 2 copies.

I'm playing a single one and it was fantastic the only time i had it in the starting 7. However, the other times it was just better as a red source.

Still testing, though.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

22% of it being in your starting 7 on the draw playing 2 copies.

I'm playing a single one and it was fantastic the only time i had it in the starting 7. However, the other times it was just better as a red source.

Still testing, though.

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And I got it 45%? That's pretty ridiculous. I'm waiting for it to succumb to the "Tacosnape Rule of Leylines," which means that regardless of the shuffle or cut, Leyline of the Anything, if run in the deck, will be the 8th card from the top.

It seems to be a pretty high impact card. It wins me games and loses me games.

Just came home from my championship. Did 1-2 drop, where the 1 was the 1st round bye due to 37 players... not what I expected. I almost won a a game agains't TES though.

Well, at least got to buy 4 Badlands, and will try Rb, probably with prospector, and Earwig main deck. =]

I guess the question about caverns is that do you think it makes you win games that you not have otherwise? I mean, sure getting some things out faster is nice, but is it both A) Good enough in the situations where you do have caverns in the beginning and B) worth it in the situations later when you'd rather have a particular color source.

If you want to see something hilarious... try Raging River

Enchantment - RR

Whenever one or more creatures you control attack, each defending player divides all creatures without flying he or she controls into a "left" pile and a "right" pile. Then, for each attacking creature you control, choose "left" or "right." That creature can't be blocked this combat except by creatures with flying and creatures in a pile with the chosen label.

I absolutely love the flavor on that card.

with the mana burn rule change, do you all think its possible to add Braid of Fire in this deck (after all, Goblins is a mana-demanding deck)

What does goblins play that requires mana during it's upkeep? With the new rules there is no mana burn, but also mana is lost from step to step as well as phase to phase. I don't see it having a home in goblins since you have nothing to play with the excess mana.

oh crap...

now i know why its not viable...

With the rule changes and people wondering over the number of one-drops to run, I decided to do a couple of calculations. If you run 12 one drops, you have a 80.9% chance of drawing at least one of them in your opening hand. If you run 10, there's a 74.1% chance of the same. For 8 one drops you have a 65.3% chance (that's running bare minimum with 4 lackeys and Vials).

This then means that running the bare minimum lackeys and vials, you're going to have to send about a third of your hands back.
I don't really know how much of a risk you guys like to take, but that seems to be too much of a chance.

For interests sake, there's a 14.3% chance of drawing two hands (7 then 6 cards after a mullagain) with no one drops in them if you run bare minimum.

As I stated before, I firmly believe we need a minimum of 10 1-drops. Thanks for providing the numbers to back me up.

I am considering something like:

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 ???

That last slot could be another Mogg Fanatic, a Skirk Prospector, Goblin Sledder, Goblin Grappler (leaning this way).

Or hell, maybe just go with three fanatics and call it good.

Though I am interested in the Gemstone Caverns experiment. I happen to have that thing right in my binder and always thought it should serve some purpose...

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Originally Posted by dr4g0n

This then means that running the bare minimum lackeys and vials, you're going to have to send about a third of your hands back.

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It's not like a hand without turn 1 drop is an automull.
I'd gladly keep a hand with a 2cc drop (or a rishadan port) on the play, or a hand with 2cc drops and Gemstone Caverns on the draw.

This is the list I played to a 6/1/0 result (no T8 playoff) at the Iserlohn event yesterday:

// Lands (24)
5 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

// Creatures (29)
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Pyromancer
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
2 Earwig Squad
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Spells (7)
4 AEther Vial
3 Warren Weirding

Goblin Pyromancer was mvp all day long, as he is able to win situations that would be lost otherwise. I would substitute two of the Weirdings with Terminate. Often times I wished for a targeted removal that isn't dependent on the number of goblins in play.

@ GreenOne: In fact, a hand without a 1st turn drop, is a mulligan most of the time. A 2nd turn Port activation without a 1st turn Vial or Lackey drop is definitely bad.

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Originally Posted by Shimster

@ GreenOne: In fact, a hand without a 1st turn drop, is a mulligan most of the time. A 2nd turn Port activation without a 1st turn Vial or Lackey drop is definitely bad.

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Are you seriously mulliganing hands on the play like 2xMountain, Port, Mogg war marshal, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader?

Or Mountain, Port, Gemstone Caverns, Mogg war marshal, Warchief, Matron, Ringleader on the draw?

I'm not going to take the risks of a mull to six, just looking for the power of a turn 1 Lackey or Vial.
And, anyway, it's not like I'm not playng 4 vials and lackeys, I'm just not maximizing the third 1cc drop.

A second turn Port is decent if you're trying to reach the middle-late game, where your card advantage machine starts to work.

If you're feeling more comfortable mulliganing down to 6 and taking your 55% (or so) of probability of having a vial or a lackey, take your chance.
I don't feel like it's a good deal, but you can do it.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

If you want to see something hilarious... try Raging River

Enchantment - RR

Whenever one or more creatures you control attack, each defending player divides all creatures without flying he or she controls into a "left" pile and a "right" pile. Then, for each attacking creature you control, choose "left" or "right." That creature can't be blocked this combat except by creatures with flying and creatures in a pile with the chosen label.

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I used to run this in Mono Red. No joke. In RB this is inferior to Cover of Darkness IMO, though. Cover of Darkness = Super Sneaky Tech.

That said, just removing the blockers is generally a better strategy. Otherwise they tend to hit you back.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I used to run this in Mono Red. No joke. In RB this is inferior to Cover of Darkness IMO, though. Cover of Darkness = Super Sneaky Tech.

That said, just removing the blockers is generally a better strategy. Otherwise they tend to hit you back.

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Wow, cover is just plain mean. I'd hate to see that in a tournament.

I'm curious as to how this deck deals with mass removal like Pyroclasm and the like.