[Deck] Fetchland Tendrils

Seems like an interesting new take on the list. If I were to run something like this I think I'd do some things differently, namely the manabase. I think 15 lands is too little in any DDFT list. One of the strengths of the deck is the fact that you can just make land drops and eventually hard cast Doomsday. I don't think the preordain in the main is necessary and I would replace with an Underground sea. I'm also not sure about the chrome mox, if it works for you that's great, and you obviously have more experience with it than me, but I'd probably replace it with a 17th land (Karakas perhaps). I also think it could be advantageous to run a basic plains in the board so you can have a no wastable white source to cast your mentors after transforming. If you did that, you wouldn't need as many white sources in the main, and honestly 2 white sources main that only function as a wastable island and swamp doesn't seem fantastic.

One thing that would be interesting to explore would be a stoneforge package in the sideboard like the TinFins lists have been doing lately. Apparently they've been having a lot of success with it.

Overall, I think this is a great idea. I've been looking for a way to cut red for a while and have considered LDV, but never actually tested anything. If I find some time I'll try out a list similar to yours (more lands like I stated above, but that'd just because I never go less than 16 in my DDFT lists) and see how it runs. I'd suggest posting it on the storm boards as well, as that's where most of the DDFT discussion happens.

Edit: Green might also not be necessary, but I'll never downplay the effectiveness of decay.

One more small data point:

3-1 (7-4) at local weekly

1-2 vs. Maverick
2-1 vs. Lands
2-1 vs. Lands
2-0 vs. Death and Taxes

I know Lands is a very favorable matchup (I lost one game before my turn 2!), but I did fight through Sphere of Resistance and Surgical Extraction.

Dark Confidants were very strong. Transformation is bad against lands. My storm wins were relatively fast (1x Turn 2 stopped by Thalia, 3x Turn 3, 1x Turn 4).

Just, ever so slowly, working my way towards giving the non-red build a try. Quick question, how are you working around the extra storm that the wish provides?

I can imagine situations where you'd normally cast both a probe and then wish as the last card for storm 9 to get tendrils. Also have you considered running the lab man as a win con to get around main deck stuff like teeg etc / too high life total?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nevilshute

Just, ever so slowly, working my way towards giving the non-red build a try. Quick question, how are you working around the extra storm that the wish provides?

I can imagine situations where you'd normally cast both a probe and then wish as the last card for storm 9 to get tendrils. Also have you considered running the lab man as a win con to get around main deck stuff like teeg etc / too high life total?

---

Generating Extra Storm
If you need extra storm (with a Top in play) you can use the standard pile of:
Ideas Unbound
LED
LED
Sensei's Divining Top
Tendrils of Agony

Where this will generate +1 storm for every extra mana (flip Tops until 5 mana remains and then put Tendrils on top and cast). In one game I used this method to generate 15 storm. Of course there are many other piles capable of generating extra storm if needed; I have not run into the issue of not being able to generate enough storm.

Laboratory Maniac
I have been thinking about adding a Hurkyl's Recall in the main to add to a Doomsday pile to fight Chalice. Is there a good Laboratory Maniac pile that gets around Chalice? Passing the turn twice seems too slow.
I don't think there are enough maindeck Gaddock Teegs to worry about including a maindeck answer. Abrupt Decay answers this problem post-board.

Thoughtseize
Unrelated, I have been testing out the combination of 2 Thoughtseize/1 Duress/4 Cabal Therapy and have been happy with the results.

Extra Doomsday Piles
Finally, there are two different piles possible with a Tendrils of Agony in the mainboard
Doomsday + Brainstorm +1 card in hand + BBBBU:
Ideas Unbound
LED
Probe
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Doomsday + Cantrip + Cantrip + Cantrip Mana + BBB:
LED
Ideas Unbound
Lotus Petal
Dark Ritual
Tendrils of Agony

Previously a double cantrip hand required an extra red mana to cast Burning Wish.

MTGO Leagues Report #2/3
Likely the last post containing game details for a while (I would appreciate feedback on technical play if possible!)

TLDR
More data points!
7-3 (15-9) in 2 MTGO Leagues

2-0 vs. Eldrazi
1-2 vs. Miracles (punt)
2-1 vs. Jund
2-0 vs. Grixis Delver
0-2 vs. Eldrazi

2-0 vs. Miracles
0-2 vs. BR Reanimator
2-0 vs. Show and Tell
2-1 vs. BUG Depths
2-1 vs. UR Delver


Adding in the first MTGO League and the weekly local:
14-5 (31-16)


Changes to the deck for League #2:
-2 Duress
+2 Thoughtseize

Changes to the deck for League #3:
-1 Preordain
+1 Echoing Truth


Round 1 - Eldrazi

Game 1 - On the play:
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Lotus Petal
Flooded Strand
Island

Start with an Island into a Top; Opponent mulligans to 6 and begins with Temple into Eldrazi Mimic. I fetch a Tundra to pretend to be Miracles and Ponder, shuffling to draw a Dark Ritual. My opponent plays a 4/4 Endless One. I find a Doomsday and win.

Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (Top + Cantrip)
TRANSFORM
-4 Doomsday
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ideas Unbound
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-3 Dark Ritual
-1 Tendrils of Agony
+4 Monastery Mentor
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Meddling Mage
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - on the draw:
Meddling Mage
Cabal Therapy
Gitaxian Probe
Lotus Petal
Cavern of Souls
Underground Sea
Polluted Delta

I draw a Top and my opponent leads with Ancient Tomb into Thorn of Amethyst. I fetch an Island and pay 1 mana to probe seeing: Thorn, Matter Reshaper, Endless One, Thought-Knot Seer, and Mishra's Factory. My opponent plays another thorn and I play a Meddling mage naming Endless One. My opponent plays a Matter reshaper and I pay 3 mana to Ponder, leaving a Monastery Mentor on top. My opponent play a chalice on zero. I play Mentor and cast 3 mana Dark Rituals, Cabal Therapies, and Cantrips.

Win - Turn 4 Monastery Mentor/Meddling Mage beats

1-0 (2-0)


Round 2 - Miracles

Game 1 - On the draw:
Lim-Dul's Vault
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Cabal Therapy
Flooded Strand
Swamp

My opponent mulligans and leads with an Arid Mesa. I lead with a Swamp and Top. My opponent Brainstorms. I pass and cast Lim-Dul's Vault in response to a Counterbalance, leaving a Doomsday on top. I attempt to win, but my Cabal Therapy is countered by a Top on top. I immediately shift gears into finding my Tendrils. Many turns of draw-go later, my opponent activates Jace's +2 and I accidentally pass priority with my Tendrils on top. My hand at this point has 7 one/zero mana spells, with 7 lands and a Top in play, and my opponent at 16 life. I asked my opponent later about his hand and I believe I had a definite win here.

Lose - Punt
TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 2 - On the play:
Monastery Mentor
Brainstorm
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta

I lead with a Sea into Thoughtseize and see:
Force of Will
Counterbalance
Pyroblast
Pyroblast
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Island

I take the Top. My opponent plays Island and passes. I brainstorm and pass. My opponent Ponders into a Mountain. I therapy away a Force of Will and use Petal to cast Dark Confidant. I draw a Cavern, play Mentor, and make 2 tokens. My opponent concedes.

Win - Turn 5 Mentor
TRANSFORM BACK TO STORM (see above)


Game 2 - On the draw:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal
Flooded Strand

My opponent begins with Island into Top. We both Ponder and pass. I brainstorm into more mana and Ideas Unbound. I cast Ideas Unbound into Doomsday and Abrupt Decay and my opponent flashes in Containment Priest (??). I decay a Counterbalance and am still looking for a cantrip. A few turns later I find a Top. My Cabal Therapy is Forced, my Doomsday is hit by Counterspell and Surgical Extraction. I lose, partially due to my impatience.

Loss

1-1 (3-2) Punt in game 1 due to misclick


Round 3 - Jund

Game 1 - On the draw:
Doomsday
Ponder
Lotus Petal
Mox Opal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand

My opponent leads with Badlands into Deathrite. I Ponder into Thoughtseize. My opponent plays a Bloodstained Mire and I win on turn 2.

Win - Turn 2 Doomsday (Cantrip + LED)
-1 Duress
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Preordain
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - On the play:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Lim-Dul's Vault
Polluted Delta
Swamp

My opponent starts with Badlands into Deathrite and I Probe into Therapy, taking Null Rod. My opponent Thoughtseizes away my LED. I cantrip for a few turns while my opponent plays a Dark Confidant and activates Deathrite. I attempt to combo on the last turn and lose to Red Elemental Blast + Pyroblast.

Loss
TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 3 - On the play:
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Ponder
Meddling Mage
Flooded Strand
Tundra
Swamp

I begin with Probe and Ponder/shuffle into a second Meddling Mage (Opponent has Wasteland, Goyf, Liliana, Pyroblast, Bloodbraid, Grove, Badlands). We both draw and play a Dark Confidant. I play a Meddling Mage naming Liliana. My opponent responds with a Goyf. I find a Monastery Mentor, make 3 tokens and pass. My opponent plays a Bloodbraid Elf. Next turn I cast many spells for the win.

Win - Turn 5 Monastery Mentor/Meddling Mage/Dark Confidant

2-1 (5-3)


Round 4 - Grixis Delver

Game 1 - On the draw:
Ponder
Ponder
Preordain
Sensei's Divining Top
Mox Opal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta

My opponent plays a Sea and passes. I draw/play a probe and see Force, Ponder, Stifle, and 3 lands. I draw a Tropical Island, play out Top and all my artifacts, and Preordain into Sea. My opponent Ponders, plays a second Sea and Deathrite. I cantrip and Duress a Stifle. My opponent cantrips. I Therapy a Force of Will and see Fire/Ice, which will disrupt my combo (tap Top in response to Doomsday). I Therapy away Fire/Ice and win. Starting with Top in hand for the combo gets around Fire/Ice as they will never have priority in time to tap the Top.

Win - Turn 5 Doomsday (Top + LED); Beat Force, Stifle, Fire/Ice

TRANSFORM (see above)


Game 2: On the draw:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Ponder
Sensei's Divining Top
Meddling Mage
Abrupt Decay
Polluted Delta

My opponent plays a Volcanic Island and passes. I draw Ponder, play Delta, and pass, fearing Stifle. My opponent Brainstorms and I fetch an island and Brainstorm in response. My opponent misses a 2nd land drop. I play Top and Ponder into Cavern. My opponent Ponders into land. I Probe and play Meddling Mage naming Cabal Therapy. I decay a Deathrite Shaman and play a second Top. I trade my Meddling Mage for a Snapcaster, play Mentor, Petal, and pass. My opponent plays two Delvers. I play Top and Meddling Mage, naming Young Pyromancer. A Deathrite Shaman joins two flipped Delvers. My opponent Stifles my Top activation many times but eventually loses to Monastery Mentor.

Win - Turn 8 Mentor

3-1 (7-3)


Round 5 - Eldrazi

Game 1 - On the Draw:
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Lim-Dul's Vault
Ideas Unbound
Doomsday
Dark Ritual
Flooded Strand

Without the Ideas Unbound, this is a Petal/LED away from a Turn 1 win. My opponent begins with Ancient Tomb into Chalice of the Void on 1. I scoop after playing a Flooded Strand into Tundra. I decide I need a maindeck answer to Chalice.

Loss - Turn 1 Chalice of the Void
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Ponder
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea
Tropical Island

I Thoughtseize away a Mind Stone, leaving my opponent with Reality Smasher and lands. My opponent plays an Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Mimic. I Therapy away a Reality Smasher and play Top. My opponent plays a 3/3 Endless One. I Brainstorm into Dark Confidant. I cannot find a Monastery Mentor and lose to Thought-Knot Seer.

Loss

3-2 (7-5)


League #3

Round 6 - Miracles

Game 1 - On the play:
Sensei's Divining Top
Lotus Petal
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flooded Strand
Tropical Island
Tundra
Swamp

Start with an Island into a Top. My opponent starts with Volcanic into Ponder. I Probe and see Force, Counterbalance, Brainstorm, Ponder, Snapcaster Mage, Swords, and Volcanic Island. I prepare to find my Tendrils of Agony, and start to play draw-go, making land drops. I am able to resolve a second Top and respond to fetchlands with Brainstorms (I am guaranteed only three 1-CMC spells on my combo turn). My opponent begins attacking with a Snapcaster and Mentor. I find my Tendrils of Agony and my opponent plays a Jace. Due to Swords to Plowshares I need 11 storm to guarantee the win. On turn 8 I untap with Tendrils, 5 spells, and 2 Tops on board. I am able to cast Tendrils for 26 through 2 Forces and a Counterbalance on 0.

Win - Turn 8 Natural Storm
TRANSFORM
-4 Doomsday
-2 Lim-Dul's Vault
-1 Ideas Unbound
-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-2 Dark Ritual
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Tendrils of Agony
+4 Monastery Mentor
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Cavern of Souls
+2 Meddling Mage
+3 Abrupt Decay


Game 2 - on the draw:
Ponder
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Dark Confidant
Island

My opponent plays a Tundra and passes. I probe to see Force, Force, Brainstorm, Jace, Terminus, Staticaster. I draw a Therapy and Ponder into Flooded Strand. My opponent Brainstorms and my Meddling Mage is hit by Force pitching Staticaster. My opponent passes and I Brainstorm and play Confidant. My opponent flashes in Clique in response to Thoughtseize, taking a Confidant and Flusterstorming the Thoughtseize. I Therapy away Jace, leaving my opponent with Force of Will. I find a Mentor, Therapy away the Force, play Mentor, and make 2 tokens. My opponent concedes.

Win - Turn 6 Monastery Mentor/Confidant beats

4-2 (9-5)


Round 7 - BR Reanimator

Game 1 - On the play I mulligan to:
Ponder
Dark Ritual
Cabal Therapy
Tendrils of Agony
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea

My opponent mulligans to 5 and I play Delta and pass. My opponent plays Delta, Petal, Unmask (taking Ponder) and passes. My opponent reanimates Griselbrand on turn 2 (after a mulligan to 5 and an Unmask!)

Loss - Turn 2 Griselbrand
NO SIDEBOARD


Game 2 - On the play I mulligan twice to:
Thoughtseize
Dark Ritual
Lotus Petal
Polluted Delta
Underground Sea

I lead with a Sea and Thoughtseize away an Entomb. My opponent topdecks entomb and casts a turn 1 Griselbrand.

Loss - Turn 1 Griselbrand

4-3 (9-7)


Round 8 - Show and Tell

Game 1 - On the draw:
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Duress
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Flooded Strand
Tropical Island

My opponent leads with Island, Probe, and Ponder. I draw LED, fetch a Sea, and Duress a Brainstorm, leaving Show and Tell, Force of Will, 2 fetches, and Ancient Tomb. My opponent plays a land and passes. I Ponder into Doomsday and attempt to win on turn 2 but my Dark Ritual is hit by a topdecked Spell Pierce. We cantrip for a few turns and I Therapy away Force, leaving Intuition and Show and Tell. I am forced to fetch away my Top to Thoughtseize the Intuition. I win on turn 5 after checking for topdecked countermagic with Probe.

Win - Turn 5 Doomsday (Top + LED) through Force, Intuition, and Spell Pierce
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Mox Opal
+2 Meddling Mage


Game 2 - On the draw I mulligan to:
Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's Divining Top
Cabal Therapy
Doomsday
Duress
Scrubland

My opponent leads with Volcanic into Grafdigger's Cage (a common sideboard mistake against Doomsday). I draw a Flooded Strand and Duress away a Show and Tell, leaving Force, Red Elemental Blast, Delta, and City of Traitors. My opponent Brainstorms and I play a Top. We trade cantrips and Top activations, and I Therapy away a Force of Will, seeing Griselbrand, Flusterstorm, and Red Elemental Blast. I Therapy away a Flusterstorm and my Probe is hit by Red Elemental Blast. I check my opponent's hand with Probe and win.

Win - Turn 5 Doomsday (Top + LED) through Show and Tell, Force, Flusterstorm, and Red Elemental Blast
TRANSFORM (see above)

5-3 (11-7)


Round 9 - BUG Depths

Game 1 - On the play:
Brainstorm
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea
Swamp

I play land and pass. My opponent plays Urborg and passes; I immediately think Eldrazi and think about Brainstorming at end of turn, but decide not to. I draw a Brainstorm and Brainstorm into Dark Ritual and Doomsday. I draw an LED and win on turn 3.

Win - Turn 3 Doomsday (Cantrip + LED)
NO SIDEBOARD


Game 2: On the draw:
Gitaxian Probe
Doomsday
Ideas Unbound
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea

Except for the Ideas Unbound in hand, this is a turn 1 win. My opponent takes Doomsday with Inquisition of Kozilek. I Ponder into Cabal Therapy and my Probe is taken by Thoughtseize after my opponent misses a land drop. My opponent plays a Thespian Stage and I draw a Brainstorm. I ponder into a Top and my opponent uses Expedition Map to find Dark Depths. I Brainstorm into Echoing Truths and Lim-Dul's Vault and bounce the Marit Lage token, paying for Flusterstorm with Dark Ritual. My opponent reassembles the combo with Sylvan Scrying and Crop Rotation and my attempt to win is hit by an unknown Flusterstorm.

Loss


Game 3: On the play:
Brainstorm
Sensei's Divining Top
Dark Ritual
Lion's Eye Diamond
Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Underground Sea

I fetch an Island and play Top and my opponent leads with Thespian Stage (telling me they misread a card and did not mean to keep this hand). I Ponder into Lim-Dul's Vault. My opponent misses a land drop and I Thoughtseize away a Surgical Extraction. I turn Lim-Dul's Vault into a Doomsday and win.

Win - Turn 4 Doomsday (Top + LED)

6-3 (13-8)


Round 10 - UR Delver

Game 1 - On the Draw:
Brainstorm
Ponder
Thoughtseize
Duress
Doomsday
Echoing Truth
Swamp

My opponent mulligans to 5, casts Probe, and concedes.

Win - Turn 1 concession
TRANSFORM (see above)

Game 2 - On the draw:
Brainstorm
Brainstorm
Gitaxian Probe
Cabal Therapy
Thoughtseize
Abrupt Decay
Cavern of Souls

I keep, with 2 chances to find a blue mana source. My opponent starts with Volcanic into Delver. I draw Brainstorm and Probe into Top, and play Top. I miss on land and concede.

Loss

Game 3 - On the play:
Gitaxian Probe
Sensei's Divining Top
Sensei's Divining Top
Monastery Mentor
Dark Confidant
Polluted Delta
Polluted Delta

I open with Swamp into Top. My opponent begins with Island into Delver. I draw and play Petal (for Daze), Island, and Dark Confidant. My opponent plays Monastery Swiftspear and Grafdigger's Cage. I draw Cavern of Souls and play Mentor, making 2 tokens and Therapying away a Price of Progress, leaving a Daze. I cast Top 4 times for the win.

Win - Turn 4 Mentor

7-3 (15-9)



Win Conditions (15 Total)
-Won with Doomsday 7 times
-1x Turn 2
-2x Turn 3
-1x Turn 4 (Turn 3 goldfish)
-3x Turn 5 (Turn 2,3,3 goldfish)
-Natural Tendrils 1 time (1x Turn 8), punted one on turn 8
-Monastery Mentor beats 6 times

Thanks for reading and I'll be interested in any feedback!



Notes
Tendrils Maindeck vs Miracles
I am beginning to believe we are strongly favored with this configuration. Aside from my terrible punt (misclick allowing Jace to scry Tendrils to the bottom with Top in play), I have been able to win through a Counterbalance every preboard game thanks to Top and maindeck Tendrils. The Monastery Mentor sideboard plan is currently (4-1) against Miracles. My only other post-board loss was after siding back into storm, hoping to win against a diluted deck, which is probably overthinking the matchup.

Speed
This deck combos very consistently on turn 3 (with a decent turn 2 percentage); the only times where I combo'd past this turn were due to having to fight through 3+ pieces of interaction. I think that Lim-Dul's Vault speeds up the deck by finding Doomsday OR Dark Ritual (sometimes both!). Mox Opal also enabled the combo one turn earlier several times in the 19 matches (easy to enable metalcraft through a Doomsday pile).

I don't think that Doomsday should play less than 4 Lotus Petals. Because we only run 4 rituals AND many times we require blue mana during our combo turn, we are often limited by the number of initial mana sources available. Lotus Petal consistently lowers the average combo turn.

Generating Extra Storm
Because the deck does not run Burning Wishes, the usual piles generate 1 less storm. This can be somewhat mitigated by adding a Top to the top of the pile:
Sensei's Divining Top
Ideas Unbound
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tendrils of Agony

Maindeck Answer to Chalice/Thalia/Counterbalance
I tried Echoing Truth in the main, and while the opportunity to use it did not come up, is there a better option here (Abrupt Decay)? Or is it better to not even run an answer in the maindeck.

Viability
Assembling a 14-5 (31-16) record (especially given my sometimes subpar technical play) is encouraging. The losses were:
-BR Reanimator: Turn 2 and Turn 1 Griselbrand (turn 1 through a Thoughtseize).
-Miracles: Misclick on very likely win
-Miracles: Sloppy cantripping game 1
-Maverick: My turn 2 win on the draw was answered by turn 2 Thalia on the play
-Eldrazi: Turn 1 Chalice
Eldrazi remains a problem, but I believe Monastery Mentor gives us the best chance of any storm deck postboard.

The Monastery Mentor plan is strong: (14-4) in games overall and a stunning (13-2) in the first transformative game.

New Thread
Is there any interest in a new thread (in New and Developmental Decks) so we can discuss card choices specific to this build in detail?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nevilshute

Just, ever so slowly, working my way towards giving the non-red build a try. Quick question, how are you working around the extra storm that the wish provides?

I can imagine situations where you'd normally cast both a probe and then wish as the last card for storm 9 to get tendrils. Also have you considered running the lab man as a win con to get around main deck stuff like teeg etc / too high life total?

---

You can still make the same standard top pile for BBBUUX, you just have to play it out differently. It plays like this: Untapped underground sea and top in play, LED, DR, and DD in hand.

Dark ritual (1)
Doomsday (2)

Stack Ideas-LED-LED-Probe-Tendrils

LED (3)

Crack LED for blue
Draw with top

Ideas (4)

Top (5)
LED (6)
LED (7)

Crack LEDs for 3 blue and 3 black
Draw with top

Probe for U drawing top (8)
Top (9) BBBU floating

Draw with top

Tendrils (10)

I'm not good at writing these out.

Edit: @DireNTropy I don't think a new thread is necessary, do you have any response to my earlier post about land base, stoneforge, and cutting green? Also not sure if I mentioned it, but I would definitely be playing a lab man in the main in the place of echoing truth/preordain.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DireNTropy

Mox Opal also enabled the combo one turn earlier several times in the 19 matches (easy to enable metalcraft through a Doomsday pile).

---

I would be very surprised to learn that Mox Opal more reliably resulted in turn 2 kills than Rain of Filth (which filters Island into B). It's possible that the lack of Lab Man or Burning Wish makes turn 2 RoF less strong than it otherwise might be (since land, land, dr, led, gp, dd makes an extraneous mana for a kill, RoF or CRit can sub in here; Petal also subs in if you have BB from lands). Maybe because you lack the storm, you need SDT + LED more often to win on turn 2 that you're already enabling Metalcraft in these scenarios?

Quote:

---

I don't think that Doomsday should play less than 4 Lotus Petals. Because we only run 4 rituals AND many times we require blue mana during our combo turn, we are often limited by the number of initial mana sources available. Lotus Petal consistently lowers the average combo turn.

---

This is only part of the story. LDV provides incentive for 4x Petal, because finding non-land sources become a premium due to the way LDV plays. Further, if you don't have Wish available, blue mana becomes more premium due to needing blue to win the game (barring a shit-ton of mana such that you could use SDT into SDT+LED+ToA+2x blank).

The reason you need non-land mana with LDV vs Wish/DP/Infernal Tutor is that you are required to find BBB + draw to win if you can't make a pass the turn pile (which you don't include). Paying UB at end of turn is obviously ideal, but in less than ideal circumstances, you have now eaten both a blue and a black (of which the deck has previous few sources) and need to use an extra draw to enable LED. This is 2 cards (draw + tutor) vs 1 card with wish to enable LED. With LDV and no viable PTT pile, your LEDs are worth much less. Because you have to spend more time with LDV (it is a topdeck tutor), you end up needing additional mana to cantrip and more mana to cast LDV earlier and take advantage of the draw step (to not lose speed vs Wish/Tutor). Because of the stacking mechanic of LDV, you want additional Petals so that desperation piles become more certain (casting LDV in the main phase with 1-2 draws usually looking to abuse Brainstorm, which tends to cost UUBB (LDV + BS+ Cantrip/DR)).

In general, if you are looking to truly abuse Brainstorm, maximizing Lotus Petals is a good idea. A fair number of turn 2 kills result from having Lotus Petal in hand after leading with mainphase Brainstorm. This is true in ANT as well as Doomsday.

The downside to playing Lotus Petals is usually mana inconsistency in some matchups. You must make cuts somewhere, and that tends to be in the land slots (although, look at the 4-5c Wish lists from 2012 for an example opponent: 18-20 lands and 4 Petal to support turbo ETW vs Delver and more frequent turn 2 kills against aggro). This is most obvious in the harder matchups (Delver and when facing down Counterbalance (where the key to winning with an SDT/Tendrils deck is to stick SDT and then make land drops)).

Quote:

---

Maindeck Answer to Chalice/Thalia/Counterbalance
I tried Echoing Truth in the main, and while the opportunity to use it did not come up, is there a better option here (Abrupt Decay)? Or is it better to not even run an answer in the maindeck.

---

Maindeck Abrupt Decay has been reasonable in the matches I've played since last Autumn.

Thanks for the input! I'm still working on a response to Dr_D, which I will post later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by emidln

I would be very surprised to learn that Mox Opal more reliably resulted in turn 2 kills than Rain of Filth (which filters Island into B). It's possible that the lack of Lab Man or Burning Wish makes turn 2 RoF less strong than it otherwise might be (since land, land, dr, led, gp, dd makes an extraneous mana for a kill, RoF or CRit can sub in here; Petal also subs in if you have BB from lands). Maybe because you lack the storm, you need SDT + LED more often to win on turn 2 that you're already enabling Metalcraft in these scenarios?

---

Most of the times Mox Opal merely acts as a fifth Lotus Petal. Very rarely the deck has the powerful Land, Top, Petal/LED, Mox Opal opening.

Extra storm is rarely an issue, it requires 1 extra mana to replace a cantrip with Top in a pile.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

This is only part of the story. LDV provides incentive for 4x Petal, because finding non-land sources become a premium due to the way LDV plays. Further, if you don't have Wish available, blue mana becomes more premium due to needing blue to win the game (barring a shit-ton of mana such that you could use SDT into SDT+LED+ToA+2x blank).

The reason you need non-land mana with LDV vs Wish/DP/Infernal Tutor is that you are required to find BBB + draw to win if you can't make a pass the turn pile (which you don't include). Paying UB at end of turn is obviously ideal, but in less than ideal circumstances, you have now eaten both a blue and a black (of which the deck has previous few sources) and need to use an extra draw to enable LED. This is 2 cards (draw + tutor) vs 1 card with wish to enable LED. With LDV and no viable PTT pile, your LEDs are worth much less. Because you have to spend more time with LDV (it is a topdeck tutor), you end up needing additional mana to cantrip and more mana to cast LDV earlier and take advantage of the draw step (to not lose speed vs Wish/Tutor). Because of the stacking mechanic of LDV, you want additional Petals so that desperation piles become more certain (casting LDV in the main phase with 1-2 draws usually looking to abuse Brainstorm, which tends to cost UUBB (LDV + BS+ Cantrip/DR)).

In general, if you are looking to truly abuse Brainstorm, maximizing Lotus Petals is a good idea. A fair number of turn 2 kills result from having Lotus Petal in hand after leading with mainphase Brainstorm. This is true in ANT as well as Doomsday.

The downside to playing Lotus Petals is usually mana inconsistency in some matchups. You must make cuts somewhere, and that tends to be in the land slots (although, look at the 4-5c Wish lists from 2012 for an example opponent: 18-20 lands and 4 Petal to support turbo ETW vs Delver and more frequent turn 2 kills against aggro). This is most obvious in the harder matchups (Delver and when facing down Counterbalance (where the key to winning with an SDT/Tendrils deck is to stick SDT and then make land drops)).

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Great analysis! A majority of the Lim-Dul's Vaults cast were at the end of an opponent's turn (less than 1 out of 5 were cast on the mainphase of the combo turn).

Comparing LDV to wish:
-I lost many games with Burning Wish because I was forced to fetch a non-basic to cast Wish, compared to casting LDV off of Island + Swamp.
-I do agree that Wish is faster in the situation where you have LED, LED, Top.
-LDV can find LED, Dark Ritual, Probe, or Top vs. Burning Wish is able to find Time Spiral and Bounce/Board Wipe. Both can find discard, Tendrils, and Doomsday
-LDV can shuffle after a Brainstorm or Top activation.

Lotus Petal Count:
-What I meant from requiring 3-4 initial mana sources were mostly in the cases where we do not find either Dark Ritual or LED/Double Cantrip, in which we case we need to generate BBBU or BUUU (one less U with Probe or resolved Top) from our initial mana sources. Petal accelerates us by a turn in these cases, and turn 3 is very different than turn 4 in legacy.
-We already are the most consistent of all storm decks in hitting land drops in a long game thanks to running 4 Tops (see my games against Miracles where they resolved a fast Counterbalance), even at 15 lands.
-With the Monastery Mentor plan, 4 Petals are almost mandatory, Mentor + Petal is usually game.
-I am writing a more in-depth analysis about the land vs. Lotus Petal count, which I will post soon.

I have to admit that I was never very comfortable with pass the turn piles. I believe that they became worse against Eldrazi (fast clock + difficult to go through the deck in 1 turn through a chalice on 1).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Maindeck Abrupt Decay has been reasonable in the matches I've played since last Autumn.

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I will try this instead, thanks! Echoing Truth has the benefit of being cast off of basic lands whereas Abrupt Decay is better against Counterbalance. Also, Echoing Truth can cycle with a Top, although this is rather expensive.

Edit: Added 2 points in Burning Wish vs. Lim-Dul's Vault

@DireNTropy, interesting build. However, there are some things you could think off:

Flusterstorm MD instead of the Preordain
Lab Man instead of Preordain (ideally with Chromatic Sphere for the Echoing Truth).

Especially the Lab Man piles allows you to play through a Chalice on 1, and is better in a PTT config. Furthermore if it is a Chalice on 0 you can build DR based piles instead of LED (which requires more starting mana though :( ) or just a straight out Lab Man pile.

I will give your build some tries in the next couple of months (I cannot play more sadly) and will report here than.

Greetings,
Kathal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathal

@DireNTropy, interesting build. However, there are some things you could think off:

Flusterstorm MD instead of the Preordain
Lab Man instead of Preordain (ideally with Chromatic Sphere for the Echoing Truth).

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Against which threats is Flusterstorm better than discard? I understand that Flusterstorm is very strong against combo, but seems worse against Blue as this prevents you from using LED in the combo turn. I like Spell Pierce better since it will hit Chalice and Counterbalance, but still prefer discard maindeck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathal

Especially the Lab Man piles allows you to play through a Chalice on 1, and is better in a PTT config. Furthermore if it is a Chalice on 0 you can build DR based piles instead of LED (which requires more starting mana though :( ) or just a straight out Lab Man pile.

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From my limited experience with Laboratory Maniac against a Chalice on 1, I recall it will take 4 turns to win (3 with Top). Is this correct? Chalice on zero is somewhat easy to win with Tendrils maindeck as you only require 1 more mana than the piles without Chalice on 0. From my experience, a pass the turn pile is necessary when you are able to cast Doomsday but do not have a draw spell. Then on the next turn you cast Ideas Unbound into LED, Probe, Top, which requires 3 initial mana, then Probe into Lab Maniac and tap Top? If this is a turn 1 Doomsday through Dark Ritual, you will need an Underground Sea as well as a Lotus Petal and this is vulnerable to both removal and Wasteland. I know with Chromatic Sphere you can play around removal, but this requires even more initial mana or another turn.

The question becomes, is it worth running 2 cards that are subpar when drawn (3 mana Cabal Therapy flashback and almost no-utility stored draw for 1) for a somewhat fragile plan? It may be and I may be underestimating the strength of this plan B.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kathal

I will give your build some tries in the next couple of months (I cannot play more sadly) and will report here than.

Greetings,
Kathal

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Thanks for the input and let me know how it goes!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DireNTropy

From my limited experience with Laboratory Maniac against a Chalice on 1, I recall it will take 4 turns to win (3 with Top). Is this correct?

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Nope, Ideas Unbound cost 2. Against Eldrazi I'm usually happy if OTP I can play DR, DD.
With nothing else in hand than lands, you can make piles that play labman and empty your library next turn if no hate, or in 2 turns in case of CotV @ 1 or thorn.
If you have a petal and a fetch in hand, you put labman into play and empty your library next turn vs CotV @ 1.

Of course you win turns if you have a top or more than a land into play. So it is much faster than you recall :)

In case it's of any interest or help, here's what I've been trying out. I haven't played enough to pass proper judgement yet but it seems fine so far.

4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe


4x Cabal Therapy
3x Duress

4x Doomsday
2x Lim-Dul's Vault
1x Ideas Unbound
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Laboratory Maniac

4x Dark Ritual
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal


4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
2x Island
1x Swamp


Sideboard

4x Monastery Mentor
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
2x Serenity
1x Plains


Sideboard is taken directly from what TinFins players have been having success with. If I can get some decent testing in against a multitude of decks I'll let you know how it goes. So far I can say that the Eldrazi matchup feels better with the transformational board.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dr_D

Edit: @DireNTropy I don't think a new thread is necessary, do you have any response to my earlier post about land base, stoneforge, and cutting green? Also not sure if I mentioned it, but I would definitely be playing a lab man in the main in the place of echoing truth/preordain.

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Thanks for the response! I had sent you a PM with a quick response to your comments. The points require some discussion so I'll cover them one at a time, starting with the sideboard

Previous attempts
My first attempt at a transformative sideboard was somewhat successful, but I ran into the problem of drawing halves of two different strategies.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post904964

I then tried more committed transformative sideboards (12-15 cards) in both Painter-Stone and Tin Fins and found these to be much more effective.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post939146
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post936183

However, both decks have a much larger combo package compared to Doomsday (15-20 cards vs. 12-13) and do not run as many Cantrips and Tops. The reason I decided to switch from Doomsday was because the wishboard limited the size of the transformative sideboard. In my opinion removing the wishboard makes Doomsday the ideal deck for this transformative sideboard, with a full set of Cabal Therapy and Sensei's Divining Tops along with Cantrips and Fast Mana.


General sideboard discussion
Monastery Mentor is the strongest threat, so 4 copies are likely correct. I have found that having a secondary threat considerably increases both the consistency and strains the opponent's answers. I have tried both Dark Confidants/Cavern of Souls and Stoneforge Mystics/Equipment, both of which take another 5-6 slots.

I like having 2 slots for combo matchups having tried:
Flusterstorm
Surgical Extraction
Grafdigger's Cage
Meddling Mage (great with Cavern of Souls and Probe/Discard)

These can also be swapped for cards that are strong in the fair matchups (with an emphasis on Eldrazi and Miracles):
Bitterblossom
Young Pyromancer

This leaves 3 slots for removal (or 5 without the anti-combo cards), which I will discuss in the next section.


Removal Package
Looking at the most common matchups for the transformational sideboard:
-Miracles
-Eldrazi
-BGx Midrange
-Delver
-Stoneblade
-Death and Taxes

We identify some problematic cards:
Counterbalance
Chalice of the Void
Thorn of Amethyst
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Umezawa's Jitte
Stoneforge Mystic

Finally, we can examine the matchups where we want to side out discard for removal but retain the storm plan:
-Lands
-Elves
-Miracles game 3

The problematic cards:
Counterbalance
Chalice of the Void
Thorn of Amethyst
Null Rod
Heritage Druid
Wirewood Symbiote

Abrupt Decay answers all these cards or we can split the removal slots, for a combination of Swords to Plowshares and Serenity/Disenchant, but I this necessarily expands the number of cards required for removal.

Pros to Abrupt Decay
-Best removal against Delver (low threat density, high countermagic)
-Beats Counterbalance
-Flexible (won't draw wrong removal spell), and thus, more compact

Cons
-Requires the green splash, which in turn makes Wasteland worse
-2 mana removal spell can be expensive against taxing effects
-Bad against Thought-Knot Seer and Gurmag Angler

So the main question becomes, is it worth splashing green to reduce the number of slots required for removal? I have tried the Swords to Plowshares/Serenity removal package and personally prefer Abrupt Decay.


Stoneforge Mystic
I have tried the Monastery Mentor/Stoneforge Mystic package to reasonable success in different decks (Tin Fins and Painter's Servant). I personally liked the Stoneforge Mystic package the best in Painter as Stoneforge Mystic is especially strong with countermagic.

My two most common configurations of the two variants (on top of removal + Monastery Mentors) were:
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Dark Confidant
2x Cavern of Souls

The two packages are strong against different types of decks. Stoneforge Mystic is very strong against Eldrazi and Red-based aggro. Dark Confidant + Cavern of Souls provides a strong games against opponents holding countermagic and also is better against discard-based decks. Stoneforge Mystic is a threat by itself where Dark Confidant mostly serves to fuel Monastery Mentor and also find Mentor faster. Dark Confidant also rarely costs more than 1 life per turn with the low mana cost of the deck (average CMC is just under 1.0) and 4x Sensei's Divining Tops

I am still unsure which package is stronger, so I look forward to your feedback!

I've been tinkering around with the U/B vault build, and I've starting running one repeal in the maindeck to give a 6 storm pile in the event that you doomsday with a probe and a LED. The stack goes like so:
-Ideas Unbound
-LED
-Lotus Petal
-Repeal
-Tendrils

You spend your extra blue to bounce your lotus petal, crack LED maintaining priority, then petal and cast your freshly drawn tendrils. The fact that you can use repeal to reset a delver or bounce a few certain hate cards is not terrible, as well.

Love that people are trying new things.

I'm a bit skeptical as to whether good results are sustainable and consistent. From my view this approach puts a heavy importance on winning game 1 since once you reveal the sideboard the "surprise is gone" in a game 3. Decks like miracles and eldrazi can hedge for both. My concern is that without the speed and flexibility of Wish and without maindeck answers to tutor with Doomsday, that your Game 1 will actually be worse.

Furthermore, this eliminates some of the key advantages to even play Doomsday, like pass the turn piles, putting answers into piles (karakas, chain of vapor, slaughter pact, etc), alternate win conditions (Shelldock, Lab Maniac, Wish for Empty/Time Sprial), and Wish for random answers (massacre, discard, etc). Older ANT builds played 16 cantrips, so one fundamental question I have is what makes Doomsday the best candidate for this? especially since in my view your initial maindeck drafts remove key value.

I'll also add that Wish speeds this deck up at least as much as petals if not more, since it plays so well with LED and brainstorm.

Totally open to be proven wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the driver

Love that people are trying new things.

Furthermore, this eliminates some of the key advantages to even play Doomsday, like pass the turn piles, putting answers into piles (karakas, chain of vapor, slaughter pact, etc), alternate win conditions (Shelldock, Lab Maniac, Wish for Empty/Time Sprial), and Wish for random answers (massacre, discard, etc). Older ANT builds played 16 cantrips, so one fundamental question I have is what makes Doomsday the best candidate for this? especially since in my view your initial maindeck drafts remove key value.
.

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This is a very valid point and a reason for including lab man in the main. In my opinion he's too good at winning via PTT and beating various hate or killing when you just can't get enough storm count. You could still play karakas in this build as well if you wanted, although it will definitely be worse since it doesn't actually do anything manawise besides producing colorless.

I can't speak for your experiences with wish, but at my locals I've been playing these past few months, it hasn't seemed worth it to me and I've been looking for a way to cut red while still keeping a virtual 6 copies of Doomsday in the main. Dark Petition wasn't good enough, I'm hoping that LDV will be the answer.

In response to your comment about winning game 1, with the build I suggested, I think it's quite reasonable to just sideboard in some of the package but keep Doomsday and maniac in the main as a way to have both plans available for game 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the driver

Love that people are trying new things.

I'm a bit skeptical as to whether good results are sustainable and consistent. From my view this approach puts a heavy importance on winning game 1 since once you reveal the sideboard the "surprise is gone" in a game 3. Decks like miracles and eldrazi can hedge for both. My concern is that without the speed and flexibility of Wish and without maindeck answers to tutor with Doomsday, that your Game 1 will actually be worse.

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We still retain an advantage as the opponent is usually forced to dilute their deck with answers to two different problems whereas we can decide to sideboard back into storm or remain with the Mentor plan. Of course there will be matchups where a traditional storm sideboard is superior, but I think the transformative sideboard helps in more matches than it hurts in the current meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dr_D

In response to your comment about winning game 1, with the build I suggested, I think it's quite reasonable to just sideboard in some of the package but keep Doomsday and maniac in the main as a way to have both plans available for game 3.

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I have found that having two plans with diverging set ups (Mentor encourages aggressive cantripping both to find it and to create tokens, whereas Doomsday values cantrips in hand) leads to mediocre results from both. My experience comes from decks with a less compact combo than Doomsday, which are forced to retain pieces of the combo post-board (this issue is also present in Doomsday builds with Burning Wish). However, I may have been playing this strategy incorrectly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the driver

Furthermore, this eliminates some of the key advantages to even play Doomsday, like pass the turn piles, putting answers into piles (karakas, chain of vapor, slaughter pact, etc), alternate win conditions (Shelldock, Lab Maniac, Wish for Empty/Time Sprial), and Wish for random answers (massacre, discard, etc). Older ANT builds played 16 cantrips, so one fundamental question I have is what makes Doomsday the best candidate for this? especially since in my view your initial maindeck drafts remove key value.

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As I mentioned before, I have tried this sideboard in many different shells. Doomsday has some advantages over Painter, Tin Fins, and ANT (some advantages are shared among subsets of decks):
-Usually most, if not all, removal is sided out; Swords to Plowshares are almost always kept post-board against Tin Fins and Painter's Servant.
-4 copies of Top, Cabal Therapy, Lotus Petal, and 12-14 Cantrips, the best cards with Monastery Mentor.
-Maindeck is only 2 colors where ANT would turn into a 5 color deck; both decks can cut Abrupt Decay to get rid of green.
-Most compact combo; Doomsday's smallest combo package is 8 cards (4x Doomsday, 2x Tutor, 1x Tendrils, 1x Ideas Unbound), compared to ANT, which would be forced to retain some number of Cabal Rituals or LED (both of which are subpar with Mentor).

In my list, there are two flex slots (Mox Opal/Preordain and Echoing Truth), that can be swapped for Lab Maniac + Chromatic Sphere, Karakas, etc. I chose to include cards that were better with the transformational sideboard than more situational cards, and Echoing Truth is a decent answer to most cards that Lab Maniac is strong against.
The reason I choose not to include a maindeck Lab Maniac is due to my meta being saturated with Delver, Eldrazi, and Miracles. In my opinion the Lab Maniac plan is too fragile against each of these decks. If I was more worried about Gaddock Teeg I would include this maindeck. Also, Monastery Mentor answers many of the decks that Lab Maniac is strong against.
Finally, an opponent is more likely to keep in spot removal if they see a Lab Maniac, which makes the Mentor plan worse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by the driver

I'll also add that Wish speeds this deck up at least as much as petals if not more, since it plays so well with LED and brainstorm.

Totally open to be proven wrong.

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Buried in a wall of text above (and I admit that Burning Wish is one of my favorite cards):

Comparing LDV to wish:
-I lost many games with Burning Wish because I was forced to fetch a non-basic to cast Wish, compared to casting LDV off of Island + Swamp.
-I do agree that Wish is faster in the situation where you have LED, LED, Top.
-LDV can find LED, Dark Ritual, Probe, or Top vs. Burning Wish, which is able to find Time Spiral and Bounce/Board Wipe. Both can find discard, Tendrils, and Doomsday. I would argue that LDV is slightly faster in game 1 at the cost of being worse against permanent-based hate, which is relatively rare in game 1.
-LDV allows us to play 4 copies of Doomsday in the maindeck, further increasing the speed of the deck.
-LDV can "shuffle" after a Brainstorm or Top activation and is much stronger against discard. Being hit with Cabal Therapy after casting Wish is one of the worst feelings.
-In my experience having both an LDV and a Doomsday feels much less clunky than having Doomsday + Burning Wish, as LDV can turn into fast mana.
-LDV is card disadvantage, which is especially punishing post-board where opponents have many more answers. I would probably prefer Wish in a build without Monastery Mentor.

I think that both LDV and Burning Wish are stronger than Dark Petition as Dark Petition does not allow the mana cost (minimum of 7!) to be split (2 mana and 5 mana). Of course this can be mitigated with an extra cantrip for LED.
As emidln stated earlier, LDV and Brainstorm have a very strong synergy; LDV into Doomsday + Dark Ritual is a common play.

I feel like the deck became faster and more resilient to disruption game 1 after swapping Wish for LDV (likely mostly due to being able to play 4x Doomsday in the maindeck). The manabase in particular feels much more stable.

Edit: Added some more points.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DireNTropy

New Thread
Is there any interest in a new thread (in New and Developmental Decks) so we can discuss card choices specific to this build in detail?

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I'd just really like the Doomsday thread to be called Doomsday.

I haven't played with a transformation sideboard so I cant objectively comment. What you say sounds reasonable even if I don't really agree with it initially. It doesn't feel like your playing a Doomsday deck but rather just need a combo deck to trick your opponent in subsequent games with the transformation plan. What I was getting at is I'm curious to see how the results continue or if people catch on or mitigate it. There werent that many game 3s in the report.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DireNTropy

Buried in a wall of text above (and I admit that Burning Wish is one of my favorite cards):

Comparing LDV to wish:
-I lost many games with Burning Wish because I was forced to fetch a non-basic to cast Wish, compared to casting LDV off of Island + Swamp.
-I do agree that Wish is faster in the situation where you have LED, LED, Top.
-LDV can find LED, Dark Ritual, Probe, or Top vs. Burning Wish, which is able to find Time Spiral and Bounce/Board Wipe. Both can find discard, Tendrils, and Doomsday. I would argue that LDV is slightly faster in game 1 at the cost of being worse against permanent-based hate, which is relatively rare in game 1.
-LDV allows us to play 4 copies of Doomsday in the maindeck, further increasing the speed of the deck.
-LDV can "shuffle" after a Brainstorm or Top activation and is much stronger against discard. Being hit with Cabal Therapy after casting Wish is one of the worst feelings.
-In my experience having both an LDV and a Doomsday feels much less clunky than having Doomsday + Burning Wish, as LDV can turn into fast mana.
-LDV is card disadvantage, which is especially punishing post-board where opponents have many more answers. I would probably prefer Wish in a build without Monastery Mentor.

I think that both LDV and Burning Wish are stronger than Dark Petition as Dark Petition does not allow the mana cost (minimum of 7!) to be split (2 mana and 5 mana). Of course this can be mitigated with an extra cantrip for LED.
As emidln stated earlier, LDV and Brainstorm have a very strong synergy; LDV into Doomsday + Dark Ritual is a common play.

I feel like the deck became faster and more resilient to disruption game 1 after swapping Wish for LDV (likely mostly due to being able to play 4x Doomsday in the maindeck). The manabase in particular feels much more stable.

Edit: Added some more points.

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Your points are all accurate but I'll add a couple comments.

You need to consider how Wish functions post Doomsday (not just to get Tendrils) and especially in combination with brainstorm. These piles make excess Wishes in hand a benefit. Wish + brainstorm piles also are a decent percentage of early turn piles. Since Doomsday tutors the brainstorm in some cases assembling this combination of resources isn't challenging. I find myself executing these piles with a decent frequency.

One of the reason fetching an off basic may be more punishing is the low land count you have with so many excess fast mana sources.

Another point is Wish can also act as a draw spell making it viable in another function. LDV only tutors (or shuffles for you) and I can envision it being very effective, especially if you have brainstorm in hand as you described. However, post Doomsday it is almost dead. This makes the maindeck have a higher percentage of potential dead draws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zombie

I'd just really like the Doomsday thread to be called Doomsday.

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That'd be sweet. Let's see what Doomsday lists we can put in there:

// Doomsday
4 Doomsday
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
2 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Predict
1 Thought Scour
1 Unearth
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
4 Doomsday
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
1 Cloud of Faeries
1 Pithing Needle
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Shelldock Isle
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
4 Doomsday
4 Divining Witch
4 Laboratory Maniac
4 Thought Lash
4 Lotus Petal
2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea

// "Doomsday"
1 Doomsday
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Past in Flames
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
1 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ideas Unbound
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Swamp
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest

// "Doomsday"
4 Doomsday
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Predict
1 Thought Scour
1 Unearth
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp

Which of these should we discuss first? They all belong in the "Doomsday". They have some similarities (I didn't go into more esoteric kills, like Helm/2x SDT/Grapeshot or Predict/Grapeshot/Conjurer's Bauble/LED/Second Sunrise, although I've seen those in lists here and there. Keep in mind these are random lists that I'm throwing out, and I've actually resolved the card Doomsday under pressure before (aka I know how the card works). Won't it be grand to see what others can come up with who see Doomsday as a means to assemble whatever random combo in mono black or maybe a sweet black/red combo deck?