Don't you think that 3x Liliana's Triumph feels unnecesary with possibly 15 removals on main?
Did you consider Pithing needle or Ratchet Bomb against opposing artifacts and/or PW?
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Don't you think that 3x Liliana's Triumph feels unnecesary with possibly 15 removals on main?
Did you consider Pithing needle or Ratchet Bomb against opposing artifacts and/or PW?
I've currently dropped Eliminate, but kept the Murderous Rider.
I'm apprehensive in Bloodchief's Thirst, 4 mana is asking a lot when the Planeswalker I'm killing the most is Karn now, almost always powered out by less than 4 mana sources on their side. The adventure mechanic also slots just a little too perfect into what we're trying to accomplish to walk away from. It plays nice with Nether Spirit as well, and when it doesn't through countermagic or some other effects, Cling to Dust has been a great addition as well.
I think some number or Pithing Needle in the side are becoming borderline mandatory. I have a Gyruda/Urza/Karn Bomberman player in my group and I'd like to have a better plan than hope we don't get paired to avoid getting wiped out of the game.
Sideboard updated taking into account everything ^_^ thanks people!! Eliminate still works as the stopgap between Thirst to Murderous Rider. There's still plenty of 3 cmc creatures or less that we'd like dead. Bob, Goyf & Eidolon of the great revel come to mind. Paying 2 instead of 3 is fine. Using Thirst's kicker is good as an emergency.
Liliana's triumph is useful against marit lage bcs it's an instant, and is also quite safe from chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivaj
It also 2 for 1s with Liliana vs. Icefang shenanigans. The condition should be easy to meet with 5+ Lilianas in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
A big 0-4 oof last night.
Two decks were value piles with a resolved Sylvan Library on their side doing heavy lifting. Jace the Mind Sculptor and Dack Fayden both also made appearances and caused headaches. My contributions just made the games take longer, but without a way to cleanly clear the board completely, there was little hope of success.
One match against Retro Ninja, which was more manageable but still tricky. Retrofitter Foundry again without a clean answer provided fodder creatures to keep the board unempty. Ninjas themselves were not anything special, but spamming 0/2 creatures to magically transform into 4/4 beaters did not allow enough time to stabilize.
Last match was Eldrazi, which again, doable, but in this instance Matter Reshaper did not allow for a clean answer, turning into Mimic that got beefed by TKS the next turn and proceeded to shut the door on what was otherwise a manageable game. Later in the night he skipped right past Chalice on 1 and went for 2 & 3, his own Caverns allowing him to keep playing while I was stuck playing catchup all the way to the grave.
If this meta persists, I might need to reconsider Feed the Swarm or Mire in Misery as options somewhere in the 75. At any point Chains of Mephistopheles or Underworld Dreams showing up would have also been a significant help, so I can't say I didn't have options, so maybe having different options but also never drawing them ends up the same. Will recollect myself and see where the room settles.
Yes I think Feed the Swarm / Mire in Misery (probably feed) is a good choice to anticipate a meta with a lot of Sylvan LibraryQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Chains of Mephistopheles could also be reasonable
I would avoid underworld dreams because uro just makes that card look totally embarrassing
Underworld Dreams isn't to combat Uro, just provides a clock that gets faster the more they try and dig out from. Off an early Dark Ritual it lets you play the Pox game while also winning the game, a rarity I'm sad to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Many games they stabilize at ~5 life and recover with higher CMC stuff like Jace while we're trying to keep what little momentum we have.
Feed / Mire are good cards using 2 cmc but I've found the instant speed of Pharika's Libation more clutch for those Marit Lage situations.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
In the case of tempo, Feed/Mire are good for the early game enchantment, but the instant speed for 1 more cmc was quite handy. You also narrow the opponent's choice of permanent.
Yes and I'm trying to tell you that when one of the most popular examples of the "high cmc stuff" being played in the current meta is a creature that repeatedly comes back from the graveyard and gains 3 life when it etb and gains 3 life when it attacks then Underworld Dreams is probably not the card that you want to be playingQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Hi guys. Have yo seen this version of Snow Pox?
He plays Narfi, betrayer king as a pseudo Nether spirit and some snow cards I dont understand like Frostwalk bastion and Faceless haven (I prefer old Mishra's factory)
Imo the snow pox deck’s curve is too high. Pox wants to play a small game so playing big finishers often won’t work. But that’s just my opinion.
I have been testing land tax pox to mild success. Land tax is a card advantage engine that can actually come down before blue decks pws and is great in small games that pox creates. Myth realized ends the game quickly without getting in the way of pox.
Currently testing:
1 Plains
9 Swamps
2 Urborg
4 Silent Clearing
4 Flagstones
2 Scrubland
4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana OTV
4 Myth Realized
2 Nether Spirit
3 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach
Compared to trying to assemble a bunch of zombies, I think the get the opponent to no cards, smack them with a monk plan has been working.
I used to run more clings/thoughtseize, but extra hymns and kayas were added since the deck is so soft to chalice.
Interesting idea! That is just a 56 card list however. With that discard plan I would add four Shrieking affliction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
I missed 4 wasteland I think. I think the list has a fine amount of wincons.
Perhaps I was playing poorly, but I disliked shrieking affliction when I tried it. both it and land tax were countered by the opponent just not doing anything. Myth realized and Kaya are better at forcing action (and thus turning on land tax).
Edit: perhaps waste not could be good however...
In addition to paying a healthy respect for uro, cling/Kaya can solve the “what if you draw 2 nether spirit” problem.
Don't forget about Cursed Scroll and Ensnaring Bridge for flavors of Pox; with Oko gone they are playable cards again.
The land tax/ravens crime engine has been pretty good in my testing. However myth realized was having some issues crossing the finish line.
I was thinking about trying Planar Birth. It has the floor of being a rampant growth with mox diamond, and with the land tax engine and a few field of the dead it can easily make 20+ Power.
Do you realistically think you will have 7 or more lands with different names to trigger Field? I'm skeptical, and while it's cool, Planar Birth seems like it's going a little too deep. Your value with Land Tax and Raven's Crime seems to be pretty hefty already. I think if you want to make Field work you need to add some more utility lands like Mishra's Factory, Karakas, and Maze of Ith to the maindeck.
I think a card like Lingering Souls would be pretty good, simply because it synergizes more with self discard. Yes it's a little more mana intensive than Myth Realized, but you have the acceleration and the engine to feed that with Diamond/Land Tax. I haven't seen the deck in action, but I have been disappointed in Myth Realized in the past.
Wouldn't Monastery Mentor be nutso in this list? Just retracing Raven's Crime, even with an opponent's hand empty, sets you up with a pretty fast clock. The triggers can even ignore Smallpox for the most part because you get a token to sacrifice when you cast it.
Sedgemoor Witch an interesting SB option for this deck as a relatively cheap / efficient threat that dodges your own smallpox
Spending 3 mana every turn just to deal 2 damage seems incredibly inefficient. I would personally swap it with Sedgmoor Witch if I want a grindy threat or Rotting Regisaur as a fast cheap finisher once youre already hellbent. But then again, the recent 5-0 list below is playing cursed scroll...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Planeswalker (7)
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
Creature (2)
2 Nether Spirit
Sorcery (16)
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
2 Thoughtseize
Instant (6)
4 Cling to Dust
2 Liliana's Triumph
Artifact (2)
2 Cursed Scroll
Enchantment (1)
1 Bitterblossom
Land (26)
4 Castle Locthwain
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
3 Bitterblossom
2 Ashiok, Dream Render
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Duress
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
3 Plague Engineer
List looks pretty solid, not trying too much fancy stuff
- Kind of surprised the 2BB Liliana is good enough but I guess the +1 is a pretty solid wincon and it helps you get the bonus from Triumph more consistently
- Personally I would only play 1 Nether spirit but it probably doesn't matter too much and you have so many cling to make sure you don't double up on it
- Cling is a really good card for the deck but I'm kind of surprised to see all 4, I guess the opportunity cost is pretty low because it's so easy to cycle
- idk if Bitterblossom is the right effect for that slot, a lot of pw to protect in this build so it has a bit more utility for blocking but I think I prefer to see ensnaring bridge there
- Zero ritual kind of interesting but totally reasonable
Bitterblossom is basically 'free', life-wise, with 4x Cling to Dust. Bitterblossom doesn't conflict with Ensnaring Bridge at all, you just attack before playing your last card; you could conceivably play both, not one or the other. I've done it a few times, I'm a huge fan of both Bitterblossom and Bridge in Pox.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Bitter Bridge combo ^_^. I like the list and am definitely bringing in Sedgemoor Witch as she feels like the direct upgrade to Ophiomancer.
Has anyone tried Witherbloom Command in loam pox? Ravens crime and smallpox means that a random land is always worth a full card, so it should usually be a real 2 for 1.
It also has a lot of flexibility for a deck that has no card selection.
I think the tension comes when you have strictly better ways of abusing Loam. I could see Command replacing Loam in a BG pox deck (the amount of times you actually Loam in LoamPox is a lot lower than in say Lands or AggroLoam.) I've always liked having Sylvan Library and Abrupt Decay in Loam Pox, but the ideal win condition in Loam Pox is Dark Depths. Once you commit to Dark Depths its much more reasonable to lean into that combo rather than play lackluster cards like Smallpox. The overlap is considerable, but all of the changes are less powerful than just playing Mox Diamond/Dark Confidant/SlowDepths. Slow Depths has a ton of grind to it, similar to LoamPox, but has an overall higher card quality. This is just my opinion, but Pox has become a niche deck in the highest degree; you either play it because it specifically attacks a defined metagame well or you play it because you love Pox and you don't mind having a low win percentage.
If we want to be honest with ourselves, your Curse Stompy deck is much better equipped to deal with the metagame in general. You can tweak that deck in a lot of different ways that can adapt to metagame changes. Pox really can't adapt as well, it will always come down to hoping they don't topdeck into a 30-turn upset.
Loam pox definitely has a pull to just become bad slow depths.
However there are 2 differences that could make it viable. Pox can run entomb rather than crop rotation. This is better at assembling crime plus loam rather than depths plus stage. Fighting on card quantity rather than card quality could be enough of a difference to make the deck viable. Smallpox and lily are effective to ways of converting random lands into real cards. Additionally depths and lands coloured mana is atrocious, whereas the pox engine can run more real lands for resiliency.
I do think curses is a much better take on monoB, but the core of that deck is pretty set. Deck building and major tuning is mostly done imo. It’s mostly just better piloting needed for it to have a few real tournament results. And I am not the best at that, so I’m trying to move to other bad archetypes.
So the real question is: does Witherbloom Command make LoamPox a better deck? That would have to be explored, but I don't think a modal disruption spell is what that deck really needed (just my opinion.) Opening up a slow, grindy deck to graveyard hate (which you absolutely know is coming g2-3 for Loam alone) doesn't really give you an edge. Faster graveyard decks like Reanimator and Dredge can deal with the grave hate and then *quickly* overtake a game. LoamPox could deal with the grave hate and then still grind slowly, and like monoblack Pox, lose after topdecks come into play. The fundamental problem with Pox as an archetype is that it disrupts like a champ and then gives too much time to recoup. Delver disrupts, and then just kills you. That's why Dark Depths is so important to a LoamPox deck: you need a way to just close the game quickly. By including Depths you have to water down disruption to make room, so you can't reliably keep opponents in topdeck mode. The tradeoff is a fast win...but what happens when instead of cutting a little disruption to include a win condition you focus hard into protecting that win condition and use *just enough* disruption to quickly do that. Now you're closer to Delver and who cares what someone topdecks on turn 10 if they are dead turn 3. Sorry if this is redundant, but I've played both LoamPox extensively and TurboDepths extensively, and it isn't even close to deciding which is the better deck. Is LoamPox more fun? Yeah, sometimes its awesome, but it's not a good deck.
I totally understand the pull of 'bad' archetypes, lol. I'm trying to put together a workable Eggs list currently, if that says anything. The creative process is a big part of my enjoyment of the game as well.
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Liliana, Waker of the Dead
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
2 Sedgemoor Witch
4 Cling to Dust
3 Castle Locthwain
4 Mishra's Factory
9 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
Side
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sedgemoor Witch
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Plague Engineer
1 Nether Void
1 Kaervek, the Spiteful
2 Murderous Rider
The witch is serious business!
If you are playing witch anyways, would chain of smog plus witches cottage be a good way to get a combo finisher?
I didn't find Chain of Smog helpful at all. Pox already runs too many narrow cards that risk being dead against an unfavorable matchup that adding a borderline do-nothing card is just too much dead weight in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Just playing spells for value and breaking Smallpox symmetry is huge. If you want a win on the spot deck, Pox isn't it.
Pirate is right. I've tested Dark Depths mod & transformational Helm of Leyline combos from the sideboard. Trying to combo in a Pox shell means you're spending turns not disrupting your foes. I've since abandoned the idea of Combo Pox. There's a Hogaak Variant of Pox that's fun but isn't as consistent as true Hogaak combo. Liliana Pox should focus more on controlling as that's the archetype it was built for.
I think the biggest tension with Pox + Depths is Smallpox. I would say that is the card that needs to go to incorporate Hexmage/Depths. Otherwise the deck works as a mono-black control deck with a combo finish. Liliana of the Veil is also a little suspect, but there are workarounds with her and Depths.
Might as well play original DD combo as it's faster and more consistent. By removing Smallpox, it's just mono-B control at that point. Breaking the symmetry was the best route instead of making a weaker helm line, Dark Depths or Hogaak variants splashing a Smallpox. Pogaax as it's nicknamed in the Discord is probably the most consistent variant of 'combo pox' I've played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
My conclusion: It slows Hogaak by about 2 turns to disrupt the crap out of you and it beats down with several 2/1 and 3/1 beaters if the original plan fails. Ensnaring Bridge I thought could stop it but Altar of Dementia doesn't care. :eek:
I think there is a place for DD in a pox-ish setup...but it's likely better to go the Reanimator Depths route if you want mono-black. You can endlessly tweak the main/side to suit your playstyle and metagame. I would argue that the Hogaak variant begs the same question as you already proposed: wouldn't it be better to just play a better deck? If I had all the necessary cards I might even build Reanimator Depths; I've played against it and it seems hella fun. Honestly, all I'm missing is 2 more Reanimates, a set of Entomb, and whatever number of Griselbrand/Grave Titans are needed to make it work. For a 'budget' deck it's incredibly powerful.
I understand about breaking the symmetry of Smallpox...but we really have to wonder if it's worth it. Building a deck around an uncommon seems pretty suspect, and that's essentially what Pox is now. Before the recent bans the most successful versions didn't play Smallpox anyways. I think that is certainly the route to take, unless you want to continue to force an outdated archetype. I mean, zoo called, they're looking to see if we're available for drinks later on tonight.
Building around uncommons is great if they are cheap. Chain of smog, Brain freeze, cabal ritual, bazaar of Baghdad, ancient tomb, animate dead all have decks built around them And that’s only a-c.
From comments below I have gone back to tuning land tax pox. I think it’s the best way to break small pox’s symmetry:
It’s much better on tempo than loam. It’s extremely cheap, and even better on the draw which is critical for a slow deck. White already has the other best way to break smallpox (flagstones). It gives a strong engine with crime that does what pox wants to do (get the opponent to 0 resources). It thins the deck considerably so you have better top decks than the average pox player.
Currently testing the below:
2 Plains
7 Swamps
2 Urborg
4 Silent Clearing
4 Flagstones
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra’s Factory
4 Land Tax
4 Mox Diamond
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Waste Not
4 Myth Realized
1 Nether Spirit
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn to Tourach
Minor but impactful changes: added more basics and shifted manabase a bit more B heavy to support pox/hymn.
Factories helped with lack of wincons.
Waste not provides an additional engine for to break parity on crime and small pox. Fracture is also great as a catch all sideboard option.
Mr Safety’s point above above about closing is quite good. This deck isn’t the best at closing but myth realized and Kaya are steps in the right direction compared to cursed scroll.
I'll answer that call. Playing better decks is easy if you have the budget for them. I enjoy Pox not to become DtB but it's so disruptive and budget friendly. It's also a pet deck for quite a few people. After falling in love with the GroundBreaker precon, I researched LD with a passion. My friend pointed me to Pox and I'd found the calling. Never looked back. Pogaax is fun once in a while but Liliana Pox is my recreational Drug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I can certainly understand that sentiment, it's a super fun deck. I just think if you're going to play traditional Pox, as a grindy deck, it's better to go deeper into the prison approach: Ensnaring Bridge, Ashiok, maybe even Sinkhole. I'm toying with a Sinkhole list that cuts Liliana of the Veil, which sounds absurd on the surface but Liliana hasn't done anything in Legacy lately. Sinkhole has been dead even longer, but it does a couple things: lowers the functional curve so hitting 3 lands isn't necessary unless you need to jam a Bridge, and it encourages you to play out your cards every turn to maximize Bridge. Locking out fetches with t1 Ashiok and then Sinkhole/Wastleand on other lands sounds like it might actually work.
Essentially, I think if you want a fast win-condition/combo then Smallpox has to be left out. If you want Smallpox in your deck you need to go deep into breaking the symmetry, and in my opinion play like a Prison deck with slower win conditions like Bitterblossom/Cursed Scroll.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3506677#online
My current test. New discoveries. Black has a new Monastery Mentor in Sedgemoor Witch. She also lightning bolts anyone not using Abrupt Decay. There's been Discussion using Chain of Smog and her to go infinite but I don't like it. Menace is amazing evasion.
Torpor Orb is super underrated. Late game drawing is very good in this configuration. Definitely considering Ashiok, Dream Render in place of Surgical Extraction. Lots of awkward games. :frown:
Sho, is Liliana Waker of the Dead just because we can't run LotV #5 or do you have any special purpose otherwise?
Can't comment on your meta, but Ashiok is borderline essential for me. Last night in 4 rounds it killed fetches & Recruiter of the Guard, wiped out a Grixis KCommand/Cling to Dust pile & nuked both a Brainstorm in response to a Hymn and a Mystic Sanctuary topdeck. Hard to select an MVP when we're pushing every card to it's limit just to keep parity, but it especially kept in games that a single-minded Surgical would not have.
Interesting thought in Torpor Orb. Skyclave Apparition continues to be an issue for keeping a Liliana based lock going, this would definitively solve that.
Is there a way you can exploit the interaction of Cabal Therapy + Sedgemoor Witch? Somewhere in that 4 Thoughtseize + 2 Inquisition could be some number of Therapies.
Witch breaking the overall Pox symmetry seems great too.
Doesn't net any tokens, and you get into the problem scenario of legacy's Mentor decks - you burn the spells that make the dudes before you can make the dude. For Pox specifically, if you turbo this out with Rit, you have a 3/2 in a deck whose wincon isn't really damage [Last Hope does the same thing, just safer]. This is the same issue Kroxa runs into, where you get a currency you can't spend.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
On the Torpor Orb stuff above, this is pretty sketchy when you can't advance your gameplans with it. Doing stuff like this means you kinda need to by playing Torpor SB and Karn maindeck...but then you will get into this mindset where you need 2/15 SB cards to be Torpor to increase effective copies (1x Torpor to g2/3 maindeck, each Karn represents another copy). Add the inevitable losses to Thassa, and this behavior of playing a 13 card SB will be hard to dislodge.