[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

I was very, very quickly inducted into the opinion that Sorin is unplayable, because I played against it like 4 times at the prerelease and then again in standard a couple days later, and the card literally never did a single goddamn thing. People just kept flipping lands and Duresses and shit off of it and I was like, wow, why the hell would you ever pay 6 mana for that.

Admittedly that changes a bit when you have Top, Library, Volraths, etc to help set it up -- but my initial impressions of the card were highly unfavorable.

I've played two matches against burn since Sorin has been added to my sideboard and he has come down and won me the match two times already :) @Arianrhod, He has wide applications against midrange, control and some aggro. Limited/Standard are creature fests compared to Legacy, probably why he is worse there. I wouldn't run him maindeck though as games tend to go slower post board which is where he shines.

@Navsi, I wouldn't cut Jitte against miracles if you aren't running SoFaI. Having 3 SFM just for a BSK isn't great. Jitte IS still a card that makes your weenies into threats, and it picks off random Snapcasters, Vind Cliques and more importantly Mentors. I don't cut it even when I have SoFaI as well. I wouldn't cut STE against them either... probably cut Vet in its place, you'd rather have the mana then both of you have the mana.

@Navsi/rubblekill, how is the surgical extraction plan working for you against miracles? Do you manage to get the card you want that often? How many do you board in? 3 seems like a hell of a lot...

@rubblekill, why does anguished unmaking get the nod over pulse/vindicate because of JTMS? Is it because you get him before they brainstorm looking for a FoW? It doesn't work with your surgical extraction plan though.. (kill jace, extract him)

@AtticusBlaqk, welcome to the fold! However, I don't think I've seen a sultai podlist in here recently. You are in the right place (because for some reason Nic fit has a thread for all its variants regardless of deck colours..) Gitrog was discussed quite a bit maybe 10+ page ago (just check the dates for spoiler season!) With regards for sultai pod.. Maybe search the thread using the "search thread" function above for "pod" and have a scroll through. I'm sure someone posted something this year haha.

SFM, Kotr, Teeg... I must have clicked the maverick thread accidentally....

Seriously tho, a lot of positive work going on here and I'll toss my $0.02 in on a few things.

Mainly the deck fairs well against meta.durdley but has issues with miracles and combo.

KotR, nice, tons of interactions available, but really shines with tech lands like wastelands, karakas, etc. (That we don't want to run with VE). Also, with no evasion I don't think it's worth it as a 4x.

SFM, doesn't help significantly against combo and I think has more drawbacks against miracles than positives. First, he's 2cmc, right in line for counterbalance. Second, equipment is inherinetly conditional. Against a deck loaded with removal, especially instant speed in response to equip attempts, why flood the deck? It helps any threat that sticks be more significant, but how does it help a threat stick? And it adds cards that miracles can ignore to the deck (the actual equipment). They have plenty of anti creature hate. Part of the beauty of NIC fit is that jamming 4+ cmc threats isn't something most legacy decks are designed to cope with. SFM just brings the curve down and starts playing "fair" format creatures. How does any creature with a jitte or on batterskull present more of a problem to miracles than say sigarda, siege rhino, baneslayer, etc. None of the equipment even gets in the air to match entreat or get around a goyf (other decks). I just don't think this is the deck for SFM, there are better things to do.

61 cards is bad, this deck or any other deck.

We are in fact in the middle of an identity crisis nic fit as a whole right now can't decide if its big maverick, tiny turbo eldrazi, super rock, shardlessless shardless, or abzan angel control.... its almost like trying to follow ten recipes to make one soup

Which leads me to my next statement. The exercise in rebuilding from the ground up has shown me one thing very clearly. We started from scratch and ended up in almost exactly the same place. Wardens assement on the core of the deck based on whats been presented mathmatically is essentially where we were before, the only difference is we can see numerically why these cards tested into the slots they have long since been locked into.

Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.

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Let's make the identity crisis even worse! I like the idea though. Let's do this!

A last thing on KotR (which is now already a couple of pages back, lol) - it never was ment as a replacement of the entire 4 CMC package - it was ment to take up the last free slot that build had (leaving the CMC 4 package intact entirely) and maybe trade in for 1 CMC 4 card. Secondly, running a KotR shouldn't mean we start to tinker with silly lands. The main plan of this deck doesn't need to be diluted. Smashing face with a Goyf-size Knight that also fixes your draws fits the plan, no need to get cute. Trying to also use it for some combo is admitting to The Danger Of Cool Stuff.

You know what, I'm very disappointed in this thread. We come to the conclusion that being more consistent would help the deck quite a great deal, but as soon as we produce a build that is about as consistent as theoretically is possible we start cutting exactly those cards that were added specifically to pad consistency. And the reasoning behind it? "I feel that ...". No testing, no quantification, no particular reasoning, nothing. Just "Meh, less card X is fine".

To take Arianrhod's example concerning Big Sorin: He initially thought "Meh", was willing to try it out and after that concluded that it's a viable option. I would appreciate it if the rest can take the same approach.

@Jain: Thank you for letting me know I wasn't the only one that thought that. Still doesn't justify my response, but that's not the point.

Finishing note on "I don't want to play DRS b/c I tend to blow them up with my own Deeds" and yes, this is directed at you rubble: If you're not willing to blow up your own stuff every now and again, Pernicious Deed is not the card for you. If you find that it "just happens to you" too often, you should really evaluate your playstyle.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'd cut myself before I cut Sigarda.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
14 threats

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
17 staples/removal

3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
1 Sylvan Library
6 Filter and Draw

2 Sorin, Grim Vampire-Person
2 Control Walkers

22 Lands
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

61 total. I'd consider cutting a Heath for another Painful Truths, or Vindicate.

Sideboard

3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons or Garruk Relentless (I feel like Sigarda #2, Tao may disagree, but I'd just want to increase my frequency).
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Tsunami
1 From the Ashes
2 Slaughter Games
2 Pithing Needle
1 Vindicate/Sorin
1 Open (combo hate, likely)

My reasoning is as follows:

Maindeck isn't very different. Whatever. Vindicate could take the place of a Sorin, but whatever works for ya. Safekeeper is something to try to help Rhinos get through the STP.decks. Is it amazing? No, but it is hard to beat. Plus, it games well against Combo with Teeg.

Sideboard is for the following reasons:

Thoughtseize for Combo. Need dat interaction and to give you time. Let's be real - we're slow as fuck.

Teeg for Miracles, Combo, assorted flavours of bullshit. I agree, shutting down GSZ is a pain in the ass, but sometimes, you need him.

Control piece - Sigarda #2 is there for Miracles and the Liliana.deck. She's gameover against all the midrangey bullshit in the format, and does wonders against Miracles. I don't see a second copy as a problem, especially if one gets countered. Could also just be a Relentless, that's for testing to decide. Relentless is far less fragile, but worse against stuff like Jace/Liliana. Sigarda can break you being behind against onboard Jace AND Liliana. Garruk cannot.

Sweep - I foresee a Port reprinting in Eternal Masters, so every person who wanted to get into Legacy might try DnT. Toxic is never bad, and Charm has a little bit more use and a bit faster against, say, Elves. It's two cards to shore up matchups that are probably still favourable, but I'd never want to lose.

Tsunami as the control breaker.

From the Ashes as your trump to Eldrazi. I split this with Tsunami since From the Ashes is only meh against Miracles. Ruination might be better so you have two options, but whatever.

Needles for Jace, Sneak, Grizzle, Batterskull, or whatever. I don't care. Needle good.

Didn't get room for the Vindicate main, so here it is. Could be main instead of a Sorin, we'll see.

Open slot for either combo hate, or a Grip or something.

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A little late to seeing this, but could you elaborate on what control walkers you're running/considering?

And also, for the Sigarda slot that you have in your SB, have you thought about running a Titania? Obviously Sigarda is nuts, but in a deck that is running a Sylvan Safekeeper it seems nuts to be able to recur and also protect the 5/3 token generation not to mention that if you have a fetch in hand the turn she comes down she generates 15 power which is certainly something that makes me think of the "going over the top" qualifier being discussed as a goal for the deck.

Thanks for your thoughts! I've been loving this thread

Unfortunately Titania is a 5 mana card that dies from Lightning Bolt and is bad at blocking. Also doesn't play well with our own Deeds.

I agree the boltability is a drawback, but I was referring to her being in the SB in Matt's slot for Sigarda #2. Obviously you wouldn't bring Titania in for a MU where you might see bolts, but I think she would also do well against the "midrangey bullshit" Matt mentions and assuming you play her in a fashion like Tracker, you don't play her unless you can get value so at the worst if she does get Swords'd, you still get at least one token that can block a middle sized goyf profitably and at the best, kindof like Tracker, if left unchecked demands an answer pretty quickly. I agree that deed is awkward, but again as with Tracker, ideally you can sequence things so that the nonbo doesn't come up or even if so, that you get some swings in for free as you might cash in some but not all clues. The nice thing with deed on Titania too is that we are highly unlikely to deed for 5+ generally speaking so if she survives even a turn after a board wipe, fetchland topdecks are insane and put the pressure right back on. Lastly, and I know this is a niche case, she has inherent recursion(/ramp technically) if you have 6 lands including a karakas - every turn you can bounce/replay to grab a fetchland (ostensibly in our GY by that stage of the game) and generate a token. You can also bounce her to your hand in response to a Terminus and then if the next turn you brick or don't have other action in hand, you can start playing/bouncing her again. Just a thought - I like Titania but have not played her since I started playing junk nic fit from other variants and have been thinking about trying her out again.

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Originally Posted by emesyu

A little late to seeing this, but could you elaborate on what control walkers you're running/considering?

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You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.

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Originally Posted by AtticusBlaqk

Is the Gitrog Monster a considerable 5 drop Pod Target in Nic Fit? If this has been discussed already, can someone direct me to the right page range?

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I would say no. Pod creatures should have an EtB / LtB effect unless you plan to end your curve at 5. But really with Pod you should go up to 6 to get to a Titan and then a 5-drop like Tusk or Shriekmaw seems better.

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Originally Posted by emesyu

I agree the boltability is a drawback, but I was referring to her being in the SB in Matt's slot for Sigarda #2. Obviously you wouldn't bring Titania in for a MU where you might see bolts, but I think she would also do well against the "midrangey bullshit" Matt mentions and assuming you play her in a fashion like Tracker, you don't play her unless you can get value so at the worst if she does get Swords'd, you still get at least one token that can block a middle sized goyf profitably and at the best, kindof like Tracker, if left unchecked demands an answer pretty quickly.

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That makes a lot of sense if your version needs another big drop, could be tried. Also in general I need to try this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I dismissed it too quickly.

Simple - Titania requires shenanigans and more specific circumstances to be really good, Sigarda just says "Turn me sideways 4 times and you're done", no strings attached and has a form of evasion, on top of blanking 90% of all removal known to man.

Opponents also tend to bring in GY hate vs. us, so it isn't necessarily safe to assume we have lands to recur.

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

We are in fact in the middle of an identity crisis nic fit as a whole right now can't decide if its big maverick, tiny turbo eldrazi, super rock, shardlessless shardless, or abzan angel control.... its almost like trying to follow ten recipes to make one soup

Which leads me to my next statement. The exercise in rebuilding from the ground up has shown me one thing very clearly. We started from scratch and ended up in almost exactly the same place. Wardens assement on the core of the deck based on whats been presented mathmatically is essentially where we were before, the only difference is we can see numerically why these cards tested into the slots they have long since been locked into.

Im wondering if maybe we need to take the sylvan plug appoarch and compile a list of cards that each teir deck absolutely dreads playing against and attempt to troll/next level the rest of the metagame by playing a functional mash up of tier one hate.

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I think there's a lot of merit to this, though. Yes, we took a bunch of time and effort and didn't really end up very different from where we were (maybe a couple cards at most). But showing that there is validation for where we ended up is important, as is (even more so) now we know the slots to look for as we tune and build new lists. Now we can definitively say, no, we CAN'T cut this 1-of Sylvan Library for another Path to Exile, because then our interaction vs filtration ratios will be off. There is power in that. Sure, we can still have our "identity crisis" as you say -- some people prefer to play the deck one way, some another. But at the end of the day, the bones of each list still boil down into the same primordial soup. As long as we're careful to stick to that core goop, we'll be fine regardless of what pretty dresses we put it in.

As for a haterade approach, I mean, that's certainly something that people can work on. I'd probably recommend starting it with Armageddon -- no tier deck right now likes being geddoned, ESPECIALLY miracles and lands, which are two of the tougher matchups. The trick is that -we- don't like being geddoned very much either, but I'd imagine you could work on that somehow...Crucible of Worlds, Sun Titan, etc.

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Originally Posted by Tao

You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.



I would say no. Pod creatures should have an EtB / LtB effect unless you plan to end your curve at 5. But really with Pod you should go up to 6 to get to a Titan and then a 5-drop like Tusk or Shriekmaw seems better.



That makes a lot of sense if your version needs another big drop, could be tried. Also in general I need to try this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I dismissed it too quickly.

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I'll answer more questions tomorrow, but recall that most of the time when you GSZ for 1 with a duder in play, they just assume you're going for Deathrite. By the time Safekeeper is in play, they're holding their genitalia in their hand as opposed to the STP.

I think Titania could also be fine over Sigarda #2, yes.

Hi everyone!
Wow! This thread moves really fast.
I'm reading Nic Fit thread almost since the page 200 from the old one.

I totally agree with luklinda.
This is not a deck for creatures with cmc 3 or less, with a few exceptions such as single deathrite, ooze, eternalw,... One of the biggest assets of Nic Fit a part of sinergy between vet+ct is: pernicious deed. I think that removing deed is not the solution.

Our plan is that deed would be on side effect and this is only possible with permanents +3 cmc (in first thread Arianrhood indicated the reasons of not run sylvan library because of this).

All the equipments, deathrites, germ token, clues, sfm, kotr... die to our deed. How you are going to deal with TNN? Blowing your own board?

Some white list only contain 2 path to exile. Well, I thought that the reason of being in white was able to deal with biggest creatures at instant speed (something that is harder to do in red) - looking at you Marit Lage token (or griselbrand, angler) 3 main deck and 1 sb maybe are more correct numbers.

If there are white lists that run taiga for slaughter games in sideboard, why not run a single savannah or plateu in red lists for siege rhino maindeck? Red need to find how to close games faster, unless you go to scapeshift versions.
Sorry for my english, is not my native language.

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Originally Posted by Tao

You misread his post, he talks about the two Sorins right above there.

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Ah, I see my mistake now. Still, I know there's a lot of hype about the new Sorin but has anyone tried running 1 Sorin GN and 1 Sorin Lord of Innistrad or something like that? Liliana is probably the better pick, but I'm curious about the planeswalker direction and am interested in people's choices/experiences.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Simple - Titania requires shenanigans and more specific circumstances to be really good, Sigarda just says "Turn me sideways 4 times and you're done", no strings attached and has a form of evasion, on top of blanking 90% of all removal known to man.

Opponents also tend to bring in GY hate vs. us, so it isn't necessarily safe to assume we have lands to recur.

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I agree Titania is less all-in-one, but I think the way you dismiss Titania is a little blithe. Of course Sigarda is insane, but that's why she's MB and Titania is not. Titania can present a faster clock than Sigarda and has the angle of going wide which could mean being able to leave blocks up and still put on pressure when at low life total or get around something like an Emrakul. I have also been in the situation vs a very aggressive opening from an Eldrazi deck (T1 Eye of Ugin into two Mimics, T2 Ancient Tomb into a TKS, swing for 8, etc) which I was able to stabilize and get a Sigarda in play midgame, but which I had to trade to a Reality Smasher being that I was on 4 and it has haste/trample/is such a beating. I don't remember the game well enough to know if Titania would have been an "out" because it was a pretty nut draw from my opponent, but my point is mostly Devil's Advocating for Titania. Do I think that Sigarda #2 SB is "wrong"? Absolutely not, but do I think that there are (especially more creature heavy) matchups that it might do well in? I definitely have that feeling and was hoping to invite people to weigh in or even test it in the wild. Post board games seem to get grindier too, where an engine type setup like Titania gains cumulative advantage over the course of more turns.

You have a great point about GY hate though, that is certainly a drawback. Perhaps Titania is a better choice in something of a package with a KotR as a small version of what Warden outlined last page, or even requires such a commitment.

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Originally Posted by Sergi

All the equipments, deathrites, germ token, clues, sfm, kotr... die to our deed. How you are going to deal with TNN? Blowing your own board?

Some white list only contain 2 path to exile. Well, I thought that the reason of being in white was able to deal with biggest creatures at instant speed (something that is harder to do in red) - looking at you Marit Lage token (or griselbrand, angler) 3 main deck and 1 sb maybe are more correct numbers.

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If the alternative is dying, yes. It's also one of the reasons Golgari Charm is a common SB card.

PtE/AD is a metagame choice. And people tend to cling to AD as a catch-all answer.

Concerning Titania: She lets you run the risk of falling for The Danger Of Cool Things. Can she be beyond awesome? Yes. Can she fall incredibly short? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, my inner Timmy screams "YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" whenever I see Titania. It's just that Timmy doesn't live alone anymore.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

If the alternative is dying, yes. It's also one of the reasons Golgari Charm is a common SB card.

PtE/AD is a metagame choice. And people tend to cling to AD as a catch-all answer.

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If the opponent is playing TNN you can expect some interaction with your spells, and some of them countered. So relying only in sidebord cards that cannot deal with equipped creatures seems few options. Note that I also run golgari charm sideboard.

Regarding AD, do not have same applications as PtE. Show and tell, grixis, reanimator are tipical decks in my metagme.

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Originally Posted by Sergi

If the opponent is playing TNN you can expect some interaction with your spells, and some of them countered. So relying only in sidebord cards that cannot deal with equipped creatures seems few options. Note that I also run golgari charm sideboard.

Regarding AD, do not have same applications as PtE. Show and tell, grixis, reanimator are tipical decks in my metagme.

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You have Cabal Therapy to deal with that or just overload their interaction. Otherwise just drop Siege Rhinos and ignore that bastard. It's what we do.

As far as PtE is concerned you're preaching to the choir, sister.

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Originally Posted by Warden

This is the drawing board I'm at. I've read over all the more recent comments. I've also revisited some older ideas.
Please do not treat this like the definitive list/setup. It's an amalgamation of everyone's contributions.
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1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Karakas
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
/22 lands (2 utility + 12 mana + 8 fetch)

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Decay
3 Path / Decay / Pulse / Toxic / Vind
/12 interaction

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
/16 core choices

=== If we stop here, we're at a widely agreed-upon list of 50 cards. 20 of these 50 mitigate variance. I'm aiming for coming close to 30/60 "consistency" choices. Below is where we all are meandering.

5-card lands-matter package:
-3 Knight of the Reliquary
-1 Primetime
-2 Dark Depths + Thespian Stage

**I'm assuming you'd replace 1 of the above 22 lands with 1 of the DD/Stage combo lands. this brings you up to 23 lands in total. Although 6 cards are listed in the package, it is functionally 5 cards.

5-card SFM package:
-3 SFM
-2 equipment

5-card beatdown package:
-4 ass-kickers (Rhino, Baneslayer, Meren, Thrun)
-1 additional interaction

Misc options
-Poppa Sorin, Liliana of the Veil, Garruk Relentless, Qasali/Rec Sage, additional interaction/removal
-Scooze, Teeg, Sword of X/Y
-Gitrog Monster, Titania, Loam, Crop rotation, Safekeeper, Courser, Nissa
-Truths, Tracker, Intent, Sidisi, Witness #2
-Spikes/Thune combo

*These all plug and play into any of the above packages. Some cards compliment packages better than others.

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I really like the approach of having these core-cards, and then a few possible ways to change the deck beyond that into some different versions. If we take the three types KotR, Sfm, and Beatdown, how would you guys rate those three in the various matchups? Are there big differences in some of them? (I'm mostly interested in Miracles, Storm, Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless, and Lands. The delver matchups should still be highly favorable in all three types)

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Concerning Titania: She lets you run the risk of falling for The Danger Of Cool Things. Can she be beyond awesome? Yes. Can she fall incredibly short? Absolutely. Don't get me wrong, my inner Timmy screams "YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH" whenever I see Titania. It's just that Timmy doesn't live alone anymore.

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Hahahaha now this is something I can relate to - like many, I have certainly been governed by the Rule of Cool before. Thanks for the conversation, though. For now or at least while I'm trying this Sylvan Safekeeper tech, I think she will have a slot in my SB and I'll try to let you guys know about any aforementioned shenanigans that may occur

@helvetios: They all try to win via slow creature packages. Not to be a dick, but how do you expect that to change the outcome of any MU..? And most importantly those we have trouble with?

Consider why we have problems with certain MUs: They are either so fast we're dead before we get to kick them in the nuts and we lack the means to consistently stop them or they can deal with any and all of our threats for a single mana. They're also more consistent than we are so we are less likely to get the cards that do matter in that particular MU than they are. Do those packages improve on any of that? No. Therefor, will they improve the MUs we need to improve? No.

This also applies to lowering the number of Tops we play by the way, since they actually do help us find the cards that do matter more often and it is in our bad MUs that we need them most. Vs. ANT/TES you're normally dead before it matters you drew into a second Top and the Miracles MU usually takes so long you'll get to the point where you easily shuffle away those extra Tops. Or cast them into a Counterbalance to test if there's a 1 on top.

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

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Now that's an idea that does improve a bad MU. Walkers not being GSZ'able is another reason to stay @4 Tops, since you do need to find them for them to be of use (Yes, I'm having a field day with this).

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@helvetios: They all try to win via slow creature packages. Not to be a dick, but how do you expect that to change the outcome of any MU..? And most importantly those we have trouble with?

Consider why we have problems with certain MUs: They are either so fast we're dead before we get to kick them in the nuts and we lack the means to consistently stop them or they can deal with any and all of our threats for a single mana. They're also more consistent than we are so we are less likely to get the cards that do matter in that particular MU than they are. Do those packages improve on any of that? No. Therefor, will they improve the MUs we need to improve? No.

This also applies to lowering the number of Tops we play by the way, since they actually do help us find the cards that do matter more often and it is in our bad MUs that we need them most. Vs. ANT/TES you're normally dead before it matters you drew into a second Top and the Miracles MU usually takes so long you'll get to the point where you easily shuffle away those extra Tops. Or cast them into a Counterbalance to test if there's a 1 on top.

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I know that there won't be any drastic changes, I was mostly interested if the packages offer some slight differences. I asked mostly because I've read two different opinions in this threat about sfm package against miracles, the first one being, that the equipment makes all your little dudes into beaters, the other is that you give miracles just "some cards to ignore" and play more spells that get hit by counterbalance. Granted, combo won't change at all, but in matchups like jund or shardless there have to be some differences. I'd guess the beatdown package would work best, because you turn off bolt, decay, etc.?

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Originally Posted by Navsi

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

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In such a build, would you consider to run Oath of nissa, as a one-mana spell that searches for the walkers?

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Originally Posted by helvetios

In such a build, would you consider to run Oath of nissa, as a one-mana spell that searches for the walkers?

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In a deck where roughly only 25-30% of your cards are creatures/planeswalkers? And instead of what? No. They force you to pass up too much important stuff (GSZ, Top, removal) and do so much less than whatever card they'd replace.

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Originally Posted by helvetios

I really like the approach of having these core-cards, and then a few possible ways to change the deck beyond that into some different versions. If we take the three types KotR, Sfm, and Beatdown, how would you guys rate those three in the various matchups? Are there big differences in some of them? (I'm mostly interested in Miracles, Storm, Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless, and Lands. The delver matchups should still be highly favorable in all three types)

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I can't comment to all of the MUs as my meta is pretty slim atm, but to my impression, the beatdown is next to a must-take. What else are we ramping to? The extra interaction slot in Warden's proposed model also makes me feel good because I could see myself giving it to hand disruption which I feel has been first on the chopping block for all of these other directions discussed here and which I miss. Something like a thoughtseize can be really clutch in a combo MU but I also have a soft spot for Hymn and have unabashedly fetched both of my swamps from a vet trigger before in order to cast hymn that turn.

So if beat-down is happening, let's consider SFM vs Lands Matter. I find myself leaning more towards the lands-matter end of things. I like the LM package because it feels like a self contained plan/win con whereas equipment is inherently soft to removal in response to attach, creature sweeps like terminus, etc. Batterskull is obviously a self contained answer to those kinds of things but if you have the mana the be bouncing/recasting BS in any kind of timely manner, you also have the mana to GSZ Primetime and grab stage/depths in one go. Also, the removal that a Marit Lage token is most likely to meet is StP since that seems to be most run in the overall meta. If that's the case, we're up 20 life and probably have a better/grindier long game that can be reached with that much life cushion. The token is, of course, soft to Karakas but not all decks running StP run Karakas and even if so, StP will be a 4x vs a 1x for the legendary land. Terminus is obviously still a drag, but what else is new and I think the Miracles plan was well outlined by Matt a couple pages ago re: diversifying threats. Otherwise, KotR can also be real beats maybe even warranting the whittling down of the beat-down package to something like 3 rhinos and another interaction or walker. Also, per some different conversation parallel to this post, I think Titania is an interesting SB slot that would only benefit from the land shenanigans.
(I'm also interested in the Lands-matter package tangentially because it makes the red splash for SG from the board (or even Kologhan's Command, if we're getting spicy) ever so slightly more synergistic)

The SFM road, while enticing with the idea of a 9/9 Sigarda/Batterskull combo, somehow feels less elegant to me. To be honest, I have not given it much of a shot playtest wise but it seems to be doubling down on creatures which we already do pretty well whereas LM introduces something a little different to the degree that it presents a game plan that is developing the board with creatures and lands at the same time - creatures that can apply real beats and lands which if gone unchecked, can suddenly explode into a very urgent cause for concern.

What I am less sure of is the deed problem. The more <=4 cmc permanents we want to stick around, the more awkward deed board wipes become. Golgari charms become a hilarious blowout to make a deed more 1 sided, but that seems like a dream more than a dependable reality. I don't know what the answer is really. More recursion a la Meren or even Glissa in a SFM world? We are already open to substantial GY hate and the best path is one that pursues more consistency/CA/hand disruption. Happy to hear others weigh in, though.

Edit:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

IMO we should include some kind of more Walker heavy build in there. Garruk + big Sorin + maybe Ob Nix + maybe Elspeth + maybe Ajani MOH/Steadfast could be the build well suited to dealing with Miracles. It'd be less solid against other strategies admittedly (the problem with being more reliant on non-zenithable wincons) but it's not like we can't play Sigarda anyway.

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I like the planeswalker direction, but per the above think it is probably incompatible with trying to jam the beat down package and something like the LM package. As Echelon and Navsi note, being non-zenithable makes consistency more of an issue and trying to pull the deck in too many directions at once seems like spreading it too thin.

The SFM route is a more intricate and therefor more clunky beatdown route. The lands plan is just The Danger Of Cool Things as it still folds to our biggest problems whilst opening ourself up to Wasteland in the process.

I'm a big fan of Keep It Simple, Sirs. Just come up with a simple plan and throw in all the redundancy you can find to push that plan through whatever you may come across. This gives you the highest chance of the deck not shitting on itself.

As for planeswalkers - I have no problem with trading in 1/2 Siege Rhino for 4/5 CMC planeswalkers, provided we keep running 4 Tops to find them. That still leaves us with GSZ -> Siege Rhino/Sigarda and turns some Siege Rhinos into cards that actually are good vs. Miracles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

The SFM route is a more intricate and therefor more clunky beatdown route. The lands plan is just The Danger Of Cool Things as it still folds to our biggest problems whilst opening ourself up to Wasteland in the process.

I'm a big fan of Keep It Simple, Sirs. Just come up with a simple plan and throw in all the redundancy you can find to push that plan through whatever you may come across. This gives you the highest chance of the deck not shitting on itself.

As for planeswalkers - I have no problem with trading in 1/2 Siege Rhino for 4/5 CMC planeswalkers, provided we keep running 4 Tops to find them. That still leaves us with GSZ -> Siege Rhino/Sigarda and turns some Siege Rhinos into cards that actually are good vs. Miracles.

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Uuf, yeah. Wasteland. This is an excellent point. Part of me is still interested in 1 or at most 2 KotR due to synergy with Tracker if you're running that and an increased number of shuffle effects but I don't know if I am sold

Re: the planeswalker plan, are you ruling out new Sorin then? In my mind I am leaning toward a world that has something smaller like Liliana or Garruk R and something bigger like Grim Nemesis. Not going too hard on the PW plan and running two different ones also makes needle worse against us.

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Originally Posted by emesyu

SFM vs Lands Matter. I find myself leaning more towards the lands-matter end of things. I like the LM package because it feels like a self contained plan/win con whereas equipment is inherently soft to removal in response to attach, creature sweeps like terminus, etc. Batterskull is obviously a self contained answer to those kinds of things but if you have the mana the be bouncing/recasting BS in any kind of timely manner, you also have the mana to GSZ Primetime and grab stage/depths in one go. Also, the removal that a Marit Lage token is most likely to meet is StP since that seems to be most run in the overall meta. If that's the case, we're up 20 life and probably have a better/grindier long game that can be reached with that much life cushion. The token is, of course, soft to Karakas but not all decks running StP run Karakas and even if so, StP will be a 4x vs a 1x for the legendary land. Terminus is obviously still a drag, but what else is new and I think the Miracles plan was well outlined by Matt a couple pages ago re: diversifying threats. Otherwise, KotR can also be real beats maybe even warranting the whittling down of the beat-down package to something like 3 rhinos and another interaction or walker. Also, per some different conversation parallel to this post, I think Titania is an interesting SB slot that would only benefit from the land shenanigans.
(I'm also interested in the Lands-matter package tangentially because it makes the red splash for SG from the board (or even Kologhan's Command, if we're getting spicy) ever so slightly more synergistic)

The SFM road, while enticing with the idea of a 9/9 Sigarda/Batterskull combo, somehow feels less elegant to me. To be honest, I have not given it much of a shot playtest wise but it seems to be doubling down on creatures which we already do pretty well whereas LM introduces something a little different to the degree that it presents a game plan that is developing the board with creatures and lands at the same time - creatures that can apply real beats and lands which if gone unchecked, can suddenly explode into a very urgent cause for concern.

What I am less sure of is the deed problem. The more <=4 cmc permanents we want to stick around, the more awkward deed board wipes become. Golgari charms become a hilarious blowout to make a deed more 1 sided, but that seems like a dream more than a dependable reality. I don't know what the answer is really. More recursion a la Meren or even Glissa in a SFM world? We are already open to substantial GY hate and the best path is one that pursues more consistency/CA/hand disruption. Happy to hear others weigh in, though.

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I'm leaning the other way with regards to SFM vs. Lands Matter. IMO the Dark Depths package leaves you with a relatively small number of threats compared to SFM because you lose the ability to suit up your Eternal Witness or whatever.
The other issue I have with the Lands package is that it's relying more on expensive creatures, and is significantly more lacking in effects which are resistant to removal or countermagic. The Depths package is a lot less interesting in lists which aren't running some number of Life from the Loam because you're really quite vulnerable to Wasteland, especially if you're playing a list that wants to get to 7 for GSZ->Titan.

Stoneforge also gives you more game against aggro - obviously Nic Fit already does well against Delvers and so on, but the way we lose is to stumble on mana and then get wrecked by Daze, and having access to a 2-mana 'finisher' / way of turning the game around is really useful for any game where you want to stabilise.

IMO the best Lands Matter build goes deeper and plays Loam and/or Crop Rotation.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I'm leaning the other way with regards to SFM vs. Lands Matter. IMO the Dark Depths package leaves you with a relatively small number of threats compared to SFM because you lose the ability to suit up your Eternal Witness or whatever.
The other issue I have with the Lands package is that it's relying more on expensive creatures, and is significantly more lacking in effects which are resistant to removal or countermagic. The Depths package is a lot less interesting in lists which aren't running some number of Life from the Loam because you're really quite vulnerable to Wasteland, especially if you're playing a list that wants to get to 7 for GSZ->Titan.

Stoneforge also gives you more game against aggro - obviously Nic Fit already does well against Delvers and so on, but the way we lose is to stumble on mana and then get wrecked by Daze, and having access to a 2-mana 'finisher' / way of turning the game around is really useful for any game where you want to stabilise.

IMO the best Lands Matter build goes deeper and plays Loam and/or Crop Rotation.

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I like your point re: stabilization but am also receptive to Echelon's message of simplicity/consistency. Perhaps the ideal in that line of thinking is a set up which is consistent enough (on ramp in this case) to not stumble on mana so we would not need to lean on a low mana stabilization plan (which itself will be slow given playing/equipping while low on mana).

I agree more and more with the lands path being a very committed direction and maybe just a different deck that we're trying to play in this shell. I don't lament the energy used to investigate different possibilities, but that is increasingly my feeling as well.

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Originally Posted by emesyu

Uuf, yeah. Wasteland. This is an excellent point. Part of me is still interested in 1 or at most 2 KotR due to synergy with Tracker if you're running that and an increased number of shuffle effects but I don't know if I am sold

Re: the planeswalker plan, are you ruling out new Sorin then? In my mind I am leaning toward a world that has something smaller like Liliana or Garruk R and something bigger like Grim Nemesis. Not going too hard on the PW plan and running two different ones also makes needle worse against us.

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KotR's synergy with a card that dies to every removal spell known to man (Tracker) isn't its main selling points. It's its synergy with SDT. Seeing 3/6 new cards every-single-turn is big. Tracker is just frosting on the cake, since it's Magical Christmaslanding if that'd ever stick.

Sorin was in the SE Fit list core, not part of the beatdown package in particular. That guy is beyond awesome.

I don't necessarily agree with the consistency idea. In the SFM build, you still have GSZ targets which can stabilise you, finish a game, and get you cards. The fact that you can't GSZ for Stoneforge isn't that relevant, since most of the time the slots SFM replaces aren't GSZable creatures anyway - the Zenith toolbox is still pretty much the same size. Playing 2 rather than 3-4 Rhinos doesn't affect your Zenith, just your topdecks 99% of the time.

I've said a couple of times before that I'm not comfortable playing high (>4) numbers of pure ramp creatures because of the consistency hit you take - it means you consistently ramp, but also reduces your odds of topdecking cards which actually have a meaningful effect on the board state which concerns me since nicfit's topdecks are already highly variable (we're a deck that plays both 1/1 do-nothings and Siege Rhino) compared to most of Legacy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I've said a couple of times before that I'm not comfortable playing high (>4) numbers of pure ramp creatures because of the consistency hit you take - it means you consistently ramp, but also reduces your odds of topdecking cards which actually have a meaningful effect on the board state which concerns me since nicfit's topdecks are already highly variable (we're a deck that plays both 1/1 do-nothings and Siege Rhino) compared to most of Legacy.

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Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.

Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

KotR's synergy with Tracker isn't its main selling points. It's its synergy with SDT. Seeing 3/6 new cards every-single-turn is big.

Sorin was in the SE Fit list core, not part of the beatdown package in particular. That guy is beyond awesome.

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Additional shuffling is what I was using to refer to synergy with SDT. And ah I see, so ~2 walkers in addition to Grim Nemesis? Which, then? I have seen sporadic discussion of planeswalkers but never really a break down/discussion of merits of each.

Liliana is obviously strong and plays multiple roles. Edict removal and at times asymmetrical discard as we are something of a tap out deck looking to deploy threats quickly (if all goes according to plan re: ramping) if she is on the field in the late game, we may already be hellbent.

Garruk R/VC is an interesting card I have not gotten much of a chance to play with. Relentless version he is potentially even removal for monastery mentor and interestingly, another sac outlet for vets although the VC version is more compelling for that as it also turns late game vets or even STE/DRS into tutors for Sigarda. Token generation on either side is also obviously nice but beyond bodies it feeds into the tutor or even extra mana from tower. The deathtouch tokens on the VC side also seem like a big game stall vs creature oriented strategies. The question is, do we need the tutor that badly with 5 effective copies of our beat down win cons and is the set up too elaborate to get Garruk there?

Any Sorin variants beyond Grim Nemesis. Lord of Innistrad is a little interesting to me since worst case scenario if you have him out and you draw into/want to play GN, you can cash him out for an emblem for a nice static benefit before committing to GN.

Nissa, Vastwood Seer: She is technically ramp and not bad CA for her +1... I don't feel very excited about her though. She can be removed pretty easily and the 3cmc slot is a little more clogged already

Am I missing any? These are the ones I have seen in this thread so far to the best of my knowledge/memory

Nissa isn't ramp. She does progress your mana but doesn't put you ahead of your opponent if you both make a land drop every turn.

I think it's safe to say that any planeswalker we do play needs to be able to close the game in some manner. So that's building tokens or shooting stuff.

@emesyu - Ob Nixilis and Elspeth (Sun's Champion or Knight-Errant), Ajani Mentor of Heroes. Sun's Champion is probably less relevant now that Sorin can take the '6cmc finisher' slot. Ob Nix is the most obvious choice, alternatively Vraska.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.

Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.

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All the builds run the same number of GSZ and similar Tops. That's not my point. I'm saying that adding more Veterans / STEs increases your odds of getting a second or third ramp card when you wanted a threat or other useful card. Obviously this varies with the build, since an SFM build needs the fifth/sixth land a lot less than a deck running Sorin.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Nissa isn't ramp.

I think it's safe to say that any planeswalker we do play needs to be able to close the game in some manner. So that's building tokens or shooting stuff.

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Fair, not ramp - at best thinning the deck slightly, but not ramp.

Per this definition though, you would not take Liliana? For her low cost, I feel like she falls in the interaction camp more than the ending the game camp. Do you find you have enough interaction without her?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Ramp lowers the number of Tops/GSZ you run..? Cool.

Playing a rather large number of ramp cards just increases the need for those cards whilst giving you the mana to use them effectively.

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I read this as "playing a lot of vet/STE/etc means you will want to draw those cards while also having the mana to cast vet/STE/etc" but I think that that is wrong andddd could you clarify


Also, I know we've gone over this in pages past as a thread but I feel there is no need to disparage others as they are explaining their perspective. As someone who has cited that it is difficult to decipher intention over the internet, you are playing a bit fast and loose with the wording you direct at others. You have cool insights about mtg so I am relatively confident you are also capable of explaining why you think a different way is better in a constructive way. I was excited about this deck before I came here, but the atmosphere here has just been icing on the cake and I would love to see that fostered.

I'd like to have that 5th/6th land if I plan on casting and bouncing my Batterskull after my SFM bites the dust... Good luck casting it without the 5th land or getting it through Daze without the 6th. The sooner you can start pressuring your opponent with Batterskull, the better.

@emesyu: Yes, that'd mean I'd skip over LotV. I think we have enough removal to get by. And yes, sometimes I am a dick and at times I do play fast and loose. Please do note that I tend to attack the argument, not the person (with some exceptions every now and again). There's a (rather crucial) difference.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

@emesyu - Ob Nixilis and Elspeth (Sun's Champion or Knight-Errant), Ajani Mentor of Heroes. Sun's Champion is probably less relevant now that Sorin can take the '6cmc finisher' slot. Ob Nix is the most obvious choice, alternatively Vraska.

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Ah, I spaced on those, thanks for pointing them out. With Elspeth, I agree that Sun's Champion is probably hedged out by Grim Nemesis, but Knight Errant evasion/pump +1 seems pretty real and is another variant of converting otherwise innocuous 1/1s into fast clocks. Still, the WW in the cost seems like a significant barrier.

Ajani MoH's second ability seems neat with the added benefit given we'd theoretically be running more planeswalkers although the synergy with seeing more with top seems perhaps even more compelling. At 5cmc though, I think the cost/benefit is not there, at least for me


Vraska could be pretty reliable removal for CB/top or pesky creatures/effects and technically gets Emrakul. She also protects herself well from creatures. She seems like an overall subpar choice, especially at the 5 cmc level to me somehow though.

With Ob Nix, which? Black Oath spits out an immediate 5/5 which is no joke if you're allowed to alternate a couple turns draining/making 5/5s but I feel like Reignited is the more likely choice, and is like a slightly less versatile but more CA-y Vraska


Again, please do weigh in, thread. This is meant more to establish parameters/begin a discussion and consists mostly of my immediate impressions pre testing/late at night >>

Also, this is not reflective at all of ultimates as I think it's safe to assume if you would be ulting, your opponent is probably moving to the scoop phase already

I'm not saying SFM doesn't want a sixth land. I'm saying that they want a sixth land less than a deck playing more high-mana spells like most other Nic Fit variants, and as such can afford to drop a ramp card or two.

I was referring to Ob Nixilis Reignited. Black Oath probably isn't worth it, his + is pretty irrelevant so he probably just makes a Demon or two. We already do 5/5 flyers much better in other places, and if we want a planeswalker that kills quickly we have Sorin. I'd look into Gideon Jura before running Black Oath (although double W is a pain, we do play Sigarda).