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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@Koke_MTG
No need to apologize. You should try reading my Spanish :cry:
I am asking about Phyrexian Revoker because in the U.S. meta, it is no longer considered mandatory in the main deck, or maybe is a 1-of, especially in the Vryn Wingmare builds for WW or in the Wg build because of Qasali Pridemage, especially as BUG Delver and Elves are less present and Wingmare does more work against Miracles.
My build is looking like this at the moment:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Cavern of Souls
SIDEBOARD:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Containment Priest
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Cataclysm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rest in Peace
Oblivion Ring is better than Council's Judgment against OmniTell and is easier to cast, so I like the split.
2 Pithing Needle because I have no Phyrexian Revoker. Maybe I am too aggressive main and should be using Phyrexian Revoker... not sure.
Containment Priest against all of the creature combo decks, but with Elves seeing less play, I went with one.
Sword of Light and Shadow is an experiment. Some others are using Sword of War and Peace, but I like the lifegain and getting my creatures back to hand from the graveyard. That mitigates our lack of CA.
Seal of Cleansing can sit on the field until I need it, instead of waiting in hand and can be searched.
I'm torn about Chalice of the Void because its a great card, but it also is a problem with Vial and StP and Mom. I feel like that is a lot of our deck.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Is that the right list? You say you have no Revokers in the notes, but the list has 2. Also the list has only 21 land. Are those two Revokers supposed to be land?
Re: Chalice, doubling down on Cavern helps with Mom, Vial drops before Chalice does, and you can board out StP anyway against a lot of decks where you want Chalice. I can't run it because I Teeg, but have suggested it (I think I have?) on Salvation. Give it a try!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@kirbysdl
Fixed the lands.
Didn't say I didn't run any; I said a lot of the other U.S. players seem to be running 0-1 and asked if that was becoming common in Spain/Europe. I still see a lot of decks where I want it in the main in my local meta, so I keep two, even with 3 Vryn Wingmare.
Interesting idea on double Cavern with Chalice of the Void. That could work out, though it adds some risk with the mana. Koke_MTG isn't running 2x Cavern of Souls, though, so I was curious how that was working out for him.
Aven Mindcensor as a 1-of is a test, btw. There are matches where it is good, but rarely worth more than 1-2 spots, so I figured as a 1-of, it adds another layer of soft lockdown.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Lately I am thinking about playing a second Cavern of Souls to avoid Chalice of the Void effect for Mother of Runes, replacing Horizon Canopy's singleton. But I am concerned about the number of white sources in my manabase, because I consider that 13 is a poor number to play some creatures without Aether Vial like Serra Avenger or Flickerwisp. I think playing under 14 is a mistake.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2015-09-28
Dig through time is gone. With omni down, I'm feeling much better about imperial taxes.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
^I see a resurgence of Sneak and Show again. It regains its title of "Best Mindless Combo Deck" of the format from the grip of Omni. Plus a lot of those players would want something to do with their Show and Tells right? This should bode well for us DnT folk.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
the green splash version is now harder to justify as teeg is just worse and worse - doesn't save you from mentor, no more dtt to worry about
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I am excited to not have to worry about playing against mono-removal + Dig Through Time. :smile:
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
iatee
the green splash version is now harder to justify as teeg is just worse and worse - doesn't save you from mentor, no more dtt to worry about
Also, for those who ran Pridemages, it also gets worse because of the loss of Omni. The prime targets now would be Top and Sneak Attack, both of which are handled better by Revoker.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
So, someone critique this reasoning on the effects of DTT's ban on D&T going forward:
-No more Canonist maindeck (mainly because Omni-Tell is its main target and will not be seen as often)
-More Revokers (to combat return of Sneak Attacks, Lilianas)
-Spirit of the Labyrinth is potentially relevant again
-More honest grindy games against blue decks with creatures means fliers are probably a little better
Questions:
-Is Vryn Wingmare better or worse now? How many is right? (I'm on 0 right now, to make room for Revokers and Spirits.)
-Which sideboard cards gain the most value? (I'm considering going up to 3 RIP and I think Mirran Crusader is probably better now too. Reasoning: BGx Goyf decks got much better)
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Spirit is worse not better, as all DTT-based decks were filled w/ non-DTT cantrips.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Containment Priest might be better, with Sneak (presumably) coming back and Elves also getting a relative positioning boost. She can probably merit one of the spots taken by an anti-Omni card for most people.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pans-Advocate
Reasoning: BGx Goyf decks got much better)
Agree with this. With DTT not available to refill; any BG jund-like deck trying to just trade 1 for 1 is a lot more appealing. Hence uptick on Shardless BUG and similar attrition decks.
Yeah I want mirran crusader back in the 75 as well... maybe even Wilt-Leaf Liege!
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I have spent some time this evening to build another mono-white D&T list over paper and without testing yet. I agree with your thoughts about the new metagame after DTT ban so here is the board I will test next weeks:
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Ratchet Bomb
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
3 x Rest in Peace
With the end of the DTT era I will finish the CotV era by the moment.
At the maindeck I have returned to the full set of Phyrexian Revoker reducing to 3 the number of Vryn Wingmare and keeping the 2 Mirran Crusader obviously.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koke_MTG
I have spent some time this evening to build another mono-white D&T list over paper and without testing yet. I agree with your thoughts about the new metagame after DTT ban so here is the board I will test next weeks:
2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Ratchet Bomb
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
3 x Rest in Peace
With the end of the DTT era I will finish the CotV era by the moment.
At the maindeck I have returned to the full set of Phyrexian Revoker reducing to 3 the number of Vryn Wingmare and keeping the 2 Mirran Crusader obviously.
I ended up with a similar SB as yours, but kept some pre-ban parts.
+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Ethersworn, +1 Sword of War and Peace
-2 Ratchet Bomb, -1 Mirran Crusader
I forgot about Ratchet Bomb.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@redtwister: Sure, it's a human for Cavern, but how do you plan to hit double red reliably to cast it if you don't have a Vial @3?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
@redtwister: Sure, it's a human for Cavern, but how do you plan to hit double red reliably to cast it if you don't have a Vial @3?
Magus of the Moon... I know, I know. It's really sketchy, but I really want to give it a shot. It really pokes holes in a lot of the hate for us. I'm not saying I have the mana base down, or that you wouldn't be better off with Imperial Recruiter, but I'm saying I'm gonna try it out.
ps: I am sure this was discussed when Imperial Taxes was built by Bahra, but the searching on the threads is crappy, so I'm not finding Prophetic Flamespeaker.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I thought about trying flamespeaker and maybe there's a deck for it, but I think the bigger problem is that we often don't want to be hardcasting multiple spells a turn and that's what flamespeaker pushes you towards. You can't vial in a flamespeaker hit, and you often need your mana for ports, etc.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
But speaking of insanely greedy mana - I have been trying to figure out a build that could include a one of kiki/village bell ringer. Influenced by this guy's crazy build: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8438&d=248450&f=LE.
Vial at 3 + recruiter EOT + 2RRR open = instantly win anytime you topdeck a recruiter. Obviously 2RRR is hard-to-impossible w/ this deck, but there is potential in some sort of similar W/R vial deck.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I agree and understand that. I'm willing to give it a swing though. It's also not great with Canonist, but I don't think they belong in at the same time, so...
I think the key is knowing when you want Flamespeaker in. You basically want to lock them up and if they can get out of the prison with removal, then you go all in with Flamespeaker and start to out-CA them, at which point even a couple of turns of value puts you far ahead, with or without locking up their mana, assuming they are not a deck soft to Magus and just getting blown out by Magus + Flamespeaker.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Some discussion of Flamespeaker in Dragon Stompy in case anyone's interested: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-Stompy/page93
Edit: P.S. you can play lands exiled with Flamespeaker.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hill_giant
Me too :laugh:
I also think I can cut sharpshooter, at least from the main.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Stevestamopz
Me too :laugh:
I also think I can cut sharpshooter, at least from the main.
As sick as maindeck Sharpshooter is, there's going to be much less Young Pyromancer played to justify that maindeck inclusion.
I'd probably keep one in the sideboard for your list, for use against the mirror and against Elves.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Speedbump
As sick as maindeck Sharpshooter is, there's going to be much less Young Pyromancer played to justify that maindeck inclusion.
I'd probably keep one in the sideboard for your list, for use against the mirror and against Elves.
Yeah that's what I was thinking :)
It's still a fine sb card against Infect, Mentor and as you said Elves.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Now that DTT is banned and Omnitell will be tier 2, does anybody have any thoughts about how many Wingmares Mono W should be playing? 4 still seems clunky, especially if it means dropping Crusaders. BUG should be coming back with a vengeance.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Speedbump
As sick as maindeck Sharpshooter is, there's going to be much less Young Pyromancer played to justify that maindeck inclusion.
I'd probably keep one in the sideboard for your list, for use against the mirror and against Elves.
Why do you think there will be less young pyromancers running around. Grixis delver with young Pyro only ran like 2 dtt and it still seems like a fine choice.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
i know there's a lot of dis-synergy with black vise once thalia and wingmare are on the table, but do you think it might warrant some testing with them?
4 wasteland, 4 port, 8 thalia deck, flickerwisp....and magus of the moon after sb if you're on the r/w list.
might be terrible, but it also could have its merits vs some matchups, unless if the deck is already a favorite in those same matchups.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BearsandSquires
Why do you think there will be less young pyromancers running around. Grixis delver with young Pyro only ran like 2 dtt and it still seems like a fine choice.
Mainly a meta call, as both myself and steve play in the same league in Melbourne. I think less people will end up playing Grixis Delver without Dig Through Time for that, and the local meta outside of that 75-proxy league is much more clustered around Miracles/OmniTell(probably reverting to S&S)/RUG Delver/D&T.
I think the deck is still playable, just lost a lot of its luster from the Dig Through Time banning.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
New Meta
DnT (esp. Wr and WW) go back to being Tier 1 since the immense smoothing U decks got out of Dig Through Time is now gone.
Vryn Wingmare get's a lot worse now because -x/-x effects from other fair decks will become more common and decks like Elves that aren't hurt it. WW will go back to more traditional builds like this (obviously, room for variety):
Lands (23):
10 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
Creatures (26):
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mangara of Corondor
Spells (11):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15):
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Absolute Law
1 Sword of War and Peace
Another problem will be surviving the increase in Jund and other Punishing Fire decks as well. Absolute Law is fine against Burn and Goblins and even Lands, but it isn't really reliable against Jund. I don't know if anything is, actually. If Burn isn't a thing, maybe SoWaP is there instead of Absolute Law.
Prophetic Taxes
I tested a Wr Taxes using Prophetic Flamespeaker and I can say that the only time I actually saw it, it was outrageous. Now, is it as good as Imperial Recruiter? Not likely, at least based on the way Bahra uses Recruiter. It was also not easy to cast. 1RR can be a serious problem if you don't have Vial. However, stick a Jitte on it and you have CA and tons of triggers. It was excellent in the mirror because 1/3 double strike matches up very well against Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
I still like Bahra's Imperial Taxes builds, but here's what I would change now (I might be outright wrong on the mana base):
Lands (23):
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Plains
3 Plateau
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
Creatures (26):
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Imperial Recruiter
Spells (11):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15):
3 Rest in Peace
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgment
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Cataclysm
1 Sword of War and Peace
Sword of War and Peace is tech a number of people have been running, and having a second pro-red Sword seems better against Jund than Absolute Law because it presents a clock they have to answer, and against Jund I'd rather use RiP to keep punishing their graveyard dependency. The lifegain is also relevant against Burn and pro-W is great against the mirror.
Cataclysm is something I am using locally as a catch-all against Lands, Merfolk, Miracles, but in Wr, I am not sure it is that good or necessary, thanks to Magus of the Moon. I might want another Pithing Needle or an Enlightened Tutor or something like Path to Exile or New Meta
DnT (esp. Wr and WW) go back to being Tier 1 since the immense smoothing U decks got out of Dig Through Time is now gone.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I think the meta will have even more Gurmag Anglers and such. We just get to find out what the 3rd best delve card is now.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I think the meta will have even more
Gurmag Anglers and such. We just get to find out what the 3rd best delve card is now.
My guess is that it is Tasigur/Angler/Tombstalker.
Which makes me realize how sad I am again that they couldn't just make a damn Delve Naturalize, but that is for another format altogether.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
While they're close substitutes in modern, the difference between tasigur and angler in legacy is pretty huge thanks to karakas.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I kinda want to find some room for celestial purge in the board. It hits all those delve cards along with sneak attack, Lilli, young pyro, and even dread of night
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I do not think new metagame is bad for Vryn Wingmare and I do not consider -X/-X effects enough reason to not playing Vryn Wingmare. In the list posted above they are replaced by Mangara of Corondor and Aven Mindcensor. Both are X/1 creatures too and a bit lower than Vryn Wingmare in lot of situations. We should assume that have to face against all kinds of hate so I think about 8 non X/1 creatures are enough.
I think we have to find the right balance again between non X/1 beaters and X/1 hatebears. I'd start playing the full set of Phyrexian Revoker. I consider this fact pretty important.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I would play any number of Vryn Wingmares over any number of Aven Mindcensors. But the meta being good for D+T might also make the meta worse for x/1s.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BearsandSquires
I kinda want to find some room for celestial purge in the board. It hits all those delve cards along with sneak attack, Lilli, young pyro, and even dread of night
Not to mention sulfur elemental. I think I want to find a spot or two for that card in my sideboard as well.
On the topic of sulfur elemental how do you guys handle him in the miracles matchup? If you know that your opponent is going to bring in some number of sulfur elementals do you have to keep in some number of swords for him? Is it just better to have something in your sideboard like veteran armorer for cards like that or do you just board normally in hopes you draw judgement to get rid of him?
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Lately I keep all four STP vs miracles these days, w/ mentors, elemental and staticaster all being pretty necessary kill on sight targets. The DTT ban will help a bit cause they won't hit them so damn often now.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Note that I am playing the RW build though, which doesn't have as much of a tempo game and has fewer beaters.
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Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
WW:
Vryn Wingmare is best as a 3-4 of. I am proposing something like 1/1 Mangara/Mindcensor. Mindcensor helps against certain matchups like Elves and decks with fetch, while Mangara is good against decks with a lot of permanents game 1. Often both will be taken out for something else in their worst matches and in their best, they are very good as 1-ofs.
The main thing is that I want to cut two x/1's for Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger. Delver of Secrets and Tarmogoyf both get better and in that situation, Crusader is strong.
If I am right, I expect a resurgence of Jund, BUG/RUG Delver, Shardless BUG, UW(x) Stoneblade, Deathblade, Infect, and Elves, alongside Storm. Vryn Wingmare is solid against Delver and Storm (if you live until turn 3, in which case Game 1 you probably hit Thalia turn 2.) It's mediocre to bad against the midrange and creature combo decks.
Of course, you could do something like this (you go heavy on 3-drops and drop Serra Avenger, understanding that against combo decks you bring in Canonist and Priest):
Lands (23):
10 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
Creatures (26):
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Vryn Wingmare
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
Spells (11):
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15):
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Absolute Law
1 Sword of War and Peace
