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Yeah, I figure if I can't prevent them from casting their spells (courtesy of Sinkhole), then I damn sure better be able to answer them once they're cast. I've been thinking of going 2x Pulse, 1x JtMS, 1x Venser, Shaper Savant in addition to 1x LftL to help me in the grindy control matchups.
Hey All!
It's been awhile since I've been in the Legacy court, but I'm starting to get back on the train. I'll be at SCG Edison next weekend, and I plan on Slinging BUG Delver. I was on RUG for awhile (and Junk before that, what's up sdematt), but I'd much rather be slinging Shamans, Decays, and Hymns next weekend, than losing to Rest in Peace. I love Bolts, but gotta go with the flow.
Anyway, with that out there, would you guys care to throw me a few decklists as to where you're all at right now? I'm aware that there are VARIOUS versions of "Team America", so I just want to see some recent spice from you all hardworking fellows. Surprise me!
I'll be testing real soon, and thus posting actual useful content in the next week. Thank you kindly for your time.
~B
Nice to see you're not dead in a ditch somewhere.
-Matt
With the rise of jund I’ve been thinking about moving to BUG Delver, since gaining tempo advantage & Tombstalker seems to be a better plan than Jace against a deck offering so much burn, haste & card advantage. Also Mavericks Mother, Thalia are declining which were easier to handle by RUG tempo than Team America. To tackle the often mentioned problems with Tundra decks that Team America has, I was thinking about transforming the creature base from the sideboard. For Tundra decks I recommend reducing Goyf, cutting stalker and rocking confidant & Vendilion clique.
Confidant vs. Tombstalker: Confidant being superior versus combo & Tundra decks – Tombstalker obviously better versus decay & lightning bolt decks.
To support confidant I feel targeted discard is superior over hymn to Tourach since getting the removal out of their hands is more important than the direct card advantage from Hymn to tourach.
The configuration I thought was:
Maindeck
4 Deathrite
4 Delver
3 Goyf
3 Confidant
4 targeted discard
Sideboard
2 Vendilion Clique
2-3 Tombstalker
Another option would be to run a traditional configuration with Hymn & stalker maindeck and something like 3 confidant, 3 thoughtseize in the sideboard.
Has anyone thought about the transformation of Tombstalker/Confidant and to a lesser extend hymn vs. targeted discard?
The problem with V Clique against Tundra decks is that it doesn't handle Lingering Souls well, and beating that card is pretty important for this match. Without that I think it's a reasonable choice to handle something like Jace or SFM but those are secondary threats in this match as far as I can tell.
I don't think there is anything wrong with Dark Confidant, but playing Tombstalker is one of the main reasons to play black for TA over RUG. If you're going for one or the other, I think Tombstalker is better here as it kills the opponent much faster.
I am also having difficulties so far matching white decks. I haven't found a truly good solution for them yet.
If you feel that Lingering Souls may be a problem, there is always Dread of Night. It also shuts down Elspeth and Timely Reinforcements as well. Of course it's a hit or miss, a lot of Tundra decks don't run them, but for those that do, Dread of Night is an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus
And as for Confidant, you just play to what your meta is more full of. I like TS but I know there are times I would much rather be running a Confidant.
Haven't seen a ton of Maverick (Thalia, Mother, Elspeth) or Timely Reinforcements, might be reasonable to just let Engineered Plague overlap for now. Not sure how good Dread of Night is at the moment; obviously, when it's relevant, it's insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by aznepyon7
I tried running Bob instead of Tombstalker, and in this deck, it's just not the right play. I was unhappy with Tombstalker against Stoneblade builds, but as good as Bob is, he's not a big threat you can drop and then beat face with while disrupting the opponent. The best cards against U/W/x decks are Sylvan Library, and Sinkhole. As for targeted discard, it is also a good sideboard plan against U/W/x, but maindeck you just want Hymn, as the 2 for 1 is what you want to be doing. Sinkhole combined with some lucky Hymn rips and Wasteland can keep them off of 4 lands long enough for you to do some serious damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Right now I like Engineered Plague and Darkblast in the board to deal with white in a general way. Each have their merits, but essentially it comes down to shutting off Lingering Souls, Thalia, and Elspeth. Then we can direct our counters to Jace/STP to avoid blow-outs. They're still not particularly fun matches, particularly Maverick game 1. Although I could be approaching that match-up incorrectly.
Thanks Matt! I'll be starting off with this here piece of work.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1084818
Pretty standard list for the delver versions, but I'm hella psyched to play all these cards together, finally. Particularly the playset of sinkholes, which I'll need to find before Edison. Testing this weekend, so I'll be back with some questions and findings soon. Go BUG GO!
I have found that the best approach to beating Jund is very similar to beating Esper: mana screw them.
This is a bit harder since you need to also be capable of killing an early Deathrite Shaman, and they will also be running discard and mana destruction of their own. However, it's very doable.
The ideal end game against Jund is you with a Tarmogoyf and Shaman in play, 1 or 2 cards in hand, 2 lands, and a full graveyard. They will ideally be backpedaling on 1-2 lands (which you destroy promptly) and they will have a nearly full grip. Cards like BBE and Liliana will get stranded in their hand, and each time they try to resolve a threat, you'll have already found a removal or Daze.
Trying to out-attrition them on the board is really tough. Bitterblossom is awesome (and I'm playing one in my current SB), but it's too narrow to really devote more slots to. If you can limit them to deploying only one threat at a time, you can easily beat them thanks to Ponder/Brainstorm trumping their desperate topdecking. (As an aside, if you ever need to see how fucking nuts Ponder and Brainstorm are, try playing Modern for a little bit. Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand are god-awful in comparison and will make you appreciate these cards, which happen to be RESTRICTED in Vintage...)
Sinkhole plays a vital function in modern BUG tempo decks. Tempo decks are notoriously bad at beating opposing late-game strategies and lucky topdecks, and both RUG and BUG can mitigate this in various ways. RUG runs Wasteland, Stifle, and Nimble Mongoose (which negates the majority of commonly played removal). BUG runs Wasteland, Sinkhole, and Hymn to Tourach. The BUG approach, when it works, is arguably stronger since a lot of Legacy decks are not really built to deal with 8 land destruction cards (9 if you count Loam as playing into that plan, 13 if you consider the times Hymn hits lands). Stifle is a more elegant card, but it can frequently be dead if your opponent plays around it or simply drops 'real' lands.
With WotC's R&D move towards printing more and more obnoxious, Timmy-esque creatures in the slightly higher CMC slots, it is more important than ever for a tempo deck to deny that approach. I'm not sure you can really hope to beat most Midrange strategies if you allow them to actually get to that point. The best method of beating something like Supreme Verdict or Jace, the Mind Sculptor is to simply never give your opponent the option of playing it.
Also, I tested Mongoose in BUG a little bit, and was unimpressed. He just doesn't really seem to fit the current build of TA, and is a much better fit for RUG. Tombstalker is still amazing as a finisher.
Also, I want to add that playing Nassif-style sideboards is a completely valid approach. ESPECIALLY since this deck runs 4 Ponders, 1-2 Sylvan Library and 4 Brainstorm. They aren't quite as 'tool-boxy' as something like Enlightened Tutor, but they still let you rip through your deck at an amazing rate in search of your bomb.
Dread of Night for example is a bit too narrow to justify running more than one (unless you know for a fact that there are a ton of Wx aggro decks), but having one is absolutely nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuts when it's relevant.
In fact, the only cards for sure that I feel every TA sideboard should be running right now is 4 Sinkhole and 1 Life from the Loam (and probably 1 Darkblast since it's very often relevant). From there you can easily shift the slots around to beat particular matchups in your local meta.
Could we move a few Sinkhole to the maindeck, making space in the sideboard for more bombs? Or do we want to keep the LD plan in the SB for specific matchups? If we play Sinkhole in the maindeck, we can still side it out when necessary, and LD is a strategy that works against lots of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
One advantage of having them in the SB, is that the opponent might fetch basics (after seeing wasteland G1), in which case Sinkhole blows him out.
Would you rather play RUG with Stifle maindeck, or in the SB? (ok, Stifle has other uses than stifling fetchlands)
I may get roasted for this, but I'm going to test Paralyze as a 2-3 of in the board. It's not instant speed, but it is 1CMC black removal (sort of). It certainly plays well with Wasteland and Sinkhole.
Sinkhole is unfortunately only relevant in some matchups, not all. It's a pretty lousy card against, say, Goblins or Elves, or any deck that's mostly immune to Wasteland. I think it's best relegated to sideboard duty, at least for the time being. The card that I'm often siding out for Sinkhole is Force of Will, which is an important card in plenty of matchups. If you try to stuff Sinkhole into the maindeck, what ends up getting cut for it? I really don't think you'd want to drop Hymn or anything else for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Regarding RUG: Stifle is either maindeck material, or not played at all. Ironically, after all the talk about the importance of land destruction in tempo, I've been playing a RUG build that actually doesn't play any Stifle. But this discussion is better fit for that deck's own thread.
The best approach is why we would run Paralyze over anything else in sideboard that's out there. There are a lot of good cards for this slot already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Larry
Innocent Blood
Darkblast
Disfigure
Deathmark
Maelstrom Pulse
Dismember
Smother
It can also be removed, paid off in late game, not an instant.
Have we gotten to the point where a stifle sinkhole deck might be good again?
Yeah, so Paralyze was not that good. I was thinking rather than the sideboard, putting it maindeck as a 3-of while cutting Abrupt Decay to 3, as I just wanted more 1 CMC removal. Instead of the 3 Paralyze, I think 3 Disfigure/Decay is what I'm going with, sending Sylvan to the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by aznepyon7
Dear god, please. Just picked up Sinkholes today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goddik
Stifle and Sinkhole end up being opposing philosophies in Tempo decks. RUG, which runs Bolt, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Thought Scour, REB, etc. has no problem keeping mana open to use Stifle. BUG, which runs Hymn, Thoughtseize, Shaman, Sinkhole, Tombstalker, Tarpit, etc. in addition to the Ponder/Goyf/Delver that both run, ends up tapping out most of the time when the deck is working properly. Especially in the early turns, where Stifle is at it's most broadly useful. RUG can't run Sinkhole, so that's a non-issue. And the reasons for running BUG over RUG, while they might include Sinkhole, have nothing to do with Stifle's inclusion or exclusion. You can't really run the TA version as it's currently built, and have the needed open mana to access Stifle. And cutting something to add Stifle would change this iteration enough to be a different deck in how it sequences it's first three turns.