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Agree. I went out and acquired copies over the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanne
Also saw one list with Cursed Totem in it. Does well against Maverick (Linvala effect, pretty much), but I think I'd have to cut Sulfur Elementals if I wanted to add them in, which I probably won't do.
What makes rough so good? ...dont get it.
Kills nothing in your deck, and everything but Knight/grown Ooze from theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
(Deal 2 damage to each NON-FLYING creature.)
Yep, against a lot of decks it functions as a one-sided Wrath of God. I think you should be playing a minimum of 2 copies in the SB right now, and possibly bump up to 3 or even 4 if your metagame warrants it. People will be itching to play Cavern of Souls, and the majority of these decks will be susceptible to it. It helps crush Goblins, Elves, Maverick, Death and Taxes, Deadguy, and other random jank. As good as Submerge is, there are a lot of aggro decks where youll need the extra help and/or they're not playing Forests.
There are a *few* decks where Pyroclasm is better (e.g. affinity, fairies) but most of the time Rough's ground limitation doesn't matter AND not killing your Delver is frequently relevant.
A++ card
And Shimster why do you play Pillar of Flame and not Magma Spray?
I Think for a local Box Tourney i swap the Forked Bolts against Sprays and maybe play a third copy in my side. But not Sure about it.
Anyway Here is my Decklist:
Maindeck:
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
Sorceries
4 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt or 2 Magma Spray
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rough // Tumble
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
Im not sure about the Sideboard right now. Im argueing with myself if i want the one-of Grudge or 4 Submerge. Also im not that sure about the Crypts as i have never played with them.
(Explanation: Decks i know that will be played: U/W Terminus Blade Control, 2 Nic Fit, U/R Burn, Mono Blue Jace Stompy Control "I crush Canadian" Deck, Maverick)
Any suggestions?
What's the advantage of playing either one? Is there some creature that you absolutely must RFG? Are you afraid of someone Reanimateing a Snapcaster Mage or something? Doesn't Forked Bolt give you flexibility and Chain Lightning give you reach?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanne
The advantage is that you simply remove Verdant Explorer, because Nic Fit is pretty Huge in my meta, and i think Shimster was at the same event i was.
40 Players and round about 6 Nic Fits
@ Fanne: Yes, it was in Bochum. :laugh:
Pillar of Flame is far better than Magma Spray (at least in my opinion) because it isn't that dead in non-creature MUs. There have been games (e.g. against BUG control) that I wouldn't have won without being able to aim two damage to the dome.
Regarding Rough//Tumble: Is Grim Lavamancer a valid SB option? It's worse in certain situations (like Maverick going manadork, into mana dork + MOR), but a lot more lasting.
@ atropos: There is a line in my last post, on the last page. Nic Fit is a popular deck in Germany (as is Maverick), thus I tested Pillar of Flame. It didn't end up being good enough, so I won't play it again.
I got the non-flying part. My thoughts are only concerning the maverick matchup. All the little dudes have to be killed immediately anway and you can only get a 2:1 very rarely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
- Thalia is a big problem: you have to kill it immediately and can't wait for a 2:1. Killing it costs 3 mana now *ouch*
- Not killing mana dudes immediately is often wrong since it is antisynergistic with the manadenial plan. Giving them 1 activation from a mana accel can be enough for them to stabalize in time.
- Not killing mother seems wrong since she can protect herself or at least one other creature from dying to rough.
- Scryb ranger is a big problem and not touched by rough (also not by submerge or sulfur elemental, so not relevant in the direct comparson) - just pointing out.
To hope rough kills an ooze or a knight is a bit optimistic.
Sure rough has applications against other decks like elves, D&T, Team Italia, Merfolk, Goblins, but I don't feel bad with my 6-7 burn spells MD tempo plan against those decks and rather optimize my SB spots against the #1 super popular Tier Deck to Beat, which is a very hard matchup: Maverick.
Submerge is set as a 4of for me and as a random 1 of I rather play Sulfur Elemental since it has the biggest upside against mother/thalia and is also sick against the also very popular lingering souls. Getting a 3/2 body out of the deal is a guaranteed 2:1 and a possible 3:1, which you can only hope for with Rough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanne
My apologies, I just couldn't conceive of any reason why that card would be played. It makes sense though and I can imagine how that would improve the Nic Fit matchup considerably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shimster
is grave hate even worth playing? or are the 4 slots better used to solidify everything else.
To be honest you could try some number of echoing truths along side 2 oozes.
I have encountert some serious Problem with the Deck, or better a really tough and in my experience nearly unwinable matchup.
U/W Countertop with Terminus and Entreat the Angels. The only thing i have thought could hel is Krosans Grip against Counterbalance and Echoing truth against the Tokens.
What i have encountert right now is that echoing truth really starts a counterwar which nearly every time is in their favour because thex have nearly the same counterlineup except they dont play stifle and daze (but Counterspell and some play pierce main) and of course Snapcaster which gives me some serious trouble.
Not sure if Krosan Grip is good enough. It's pretty narrow and we already have answers for counterbalance in the form of countering it with spell pierce & redblast.
I think Terminus is a much bigger issue! Best answer for that next to FoW/Stilfe coming to my mind is Remand! It is at least also useful in other matchups.
Still, if counterbalance-terminus becomes very popular I would just stop playing RUG....The Matchup will never be good!
WTF is MonoBlueJaceStompy "destroyRugDelver" Control??? Decklist please.
Anyway, I'm just getting back into playing RUG Delver, or Thresh if you must. For a starting comment, I will say that Rough/Tumble is cute, but Sulfur Elemental is a higher impact card when you really want that kind of effect. If you meta is loaded with fast Aggro decks I can maybe see wanting a Pyroclasm effect, but otherwise I don't think it's as justifiable.
I don't play this deck so maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't firespout or volcanic fallout be better options then rough//tumble? Sure both options kill your delvers but with the presence of lingering souls wouldn't you want a sweeper that can hit fliers? Sulfur elemental is great as an answer to lingering souls and mother of runes but unless you run forked bolt or lavamancer I'd also want a way to kill maverick's mana dorks. Keeping them off KoTR for as long as possible seems important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
This is my first post in this thread! Woohoo! I just finished my RUG Tempo list. I have been pretty happy with the results thus far. I have been running two Sulfur Elemental in the board and two Forked Bolt in the main. This has worked favorably for me thus far.
I would like to know about this as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
Cant give you the exact list but here is a rough overview:
4 chalice of the Void
4 trinisphere
4ancient tomb
4city of traitors
2-3 jace
2 jitte
2 crafted wargear
serndib efreet
fettergeist
counterspells
stuff
Always good to include in a tuned legacy deck. That list seems really loose to me. Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere are both rough to play through. Spell Snare is pretty legit at stopping Chalices, providing your opponent doesn't know that he/she can pay 1 and 2 and sneak it in at 1. This then makes your Dazes and Spell Pierces better. I haven't had too much experience playing against a resolved Trinisphere. I bet that would not be fun though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanne
Stifle is amazing against Terminus!Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Counterbalance is a tough match up but I am seeing a lot less people playing it recently. Although you can run a counterbalance sideboard with RUG Tempo the way Kenny Castor in Indianapolis. I have play tested this with little success I prefer a more directed answers in my sideboard.