[Deck] Aggro Loam

@Warden you guys must have tutors in your hands :) I just can't seem to find enough removal. Also I am running Pulse over Deluge in the SB which is a bit different in this matchup.

@RhoxWarMonk Sideboard seems fine. I got no experience with Tabernacle but reports from various people say it is not impactful enough.
Sulfur elemental is great if there are mentors in your area, if not just shave him for an add copy of thalia/canonist to help the Omni MU.
IMO Slaughter Games is losing its power, but is a meta call I guess. Miracle players in my area just diversified their answers and it become a bit useless.

@bakofried
Main deck is the list most people use. You can't really toy with more than 2-4 cards without it loosing the consistency.
Sideboard seems fine. See my comment to RhoxWarMonk for my opinions. Any MU you need help to SB?


This deck really needs a primer. Schniggaz time to get to work!!!

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

This deck really needs a primer. Schniggaz time to get to work!!!

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We would be really grateful!

A strategic question: how do you people play against Daze?
Do you prefer to slow down and dodge it, or you just go straight into it?
How much do your hand and specific MU (i.e. RUG, Grixis, BUG Delver, Mentor Miracle) affect your decisions?
More specifically: do you prefer to hold Chalice a turn and cast it safer, or risk it on 1st/2nd?

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

@RhoxWarMonk Sideboard seems fine. I got no experience with Tabernacle but reports from various people say it is not impactful enough.
Sulfur elemental is great if there are mentors in your area, if not just shave him for an add copy of thalia/canonist to help the Omni MU.
IMO Slaughter Games is losing its power, but is a meta call I guess. Miracle players in my area just diversified their answers and it become a bit useless.

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The Tabernacle is for creature decks that like to "spread out". So, Elves, anything with Young Pyromancer, DnT, anything with Empty the Warrens, decks of that nature. I like that I can "tutor" for it as well, if I have a knight into play. My playtesting is extremely limited so far, so I'm not sure if it's completely worth the slot yet but so far so good. Usually against those types of decks, I bring in the Tabernacle and the Toxic Deluge.

The Sulfur elemental is indeed for Mentor Miracles, which is getting way more popular in my area. I'm wondering if this should be a Dread of Night instead? The constant effect seems really good, even if it doesn't kill the mentor (nor does the Elemental). I've been toying around with both of these but they basically fill the same slot.

I feel the same about Slaughter Games, I think I'll be cutting one for a second Canonist.

What do you guys do against Burn? I actually own both these decks, so it's one I can playtest fairly easily. I have a horrid matchup though, and I don't think anything in my SB really helps either.... Right now I'm about 1-4 against them, which is terrible. Basically, it's chalice for 1 on turn 1 or 2 or I cannot recover. Elves is tough too, which is why the tablernacle and TD are both in the SB to help combat it.

Thanks for your feedback, it's very appreciated. A primer would be awesome as well btw :)

@Duke Playing against daze is always dependant IMO. sometimes you can play around it, sometimes you got to eat it.
Usually against Mentor Miracles you can afford to wait, but against RUG it really depends on your hand.
I almost always dump chalice. They got to have it right on the spot. Providing that your hand is not 6 Lands+Chalice you are good trading resources against Daze decks. Favorable matchups overall.

@Rhox As I said before, I never tested with Tabernacle. I would if I had one because the card is sweet. Niklas almost made me buy one by appearing with the card at GP, but he said he would drop it afterwards so my wallet sighed in relief.

Burn is "simple". Either Chalice or Aggro, priorities are Chalice->Mox->GSZ/Shaman/Ooze/Knight->Wasteland.
Don't be afraid to drop non basic when you have to put pressure on the table. The matchup is not good but don't make it worse by playing scared.
Chalice is ofc a house, Moxen are important and Wastelands key. Don't forget you can Wasteland "nothing"(target itself). Won a game at GP by wastelanding themselfs so he couldn't respond with a lethal price of progress.
You usually prefer fetching wastelands with knight when a Chalice is on the table than start attacking.
Eidolon is a bitch, kill it for me plz.

The sideboard is tricky and I always do something different. Charm are obviosly good cause enchantments and regen. Thalias and Canonists are also fine and attack which is great.

/rambling

EDIT: is anyone going to MKMSeries Prague? Just bought my plane ticket and maybe some fellow Loamers will join?

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

@Rhox As I said before, I never tested with Tabernacle. I would if I had one because the card is sweet. Niklas almost made me buy one by appearing with the card at GP, but he said he would drop it afterwards so my wallet sighed in relief.

Burn is "simple". Either Chalice or Aggro, priorities are Chalice->Mox->GSZ/Shaman/Ooze/Knight->Wasteland.
Don't be afraid to drop non basic when you have to put pressure on the table. The matchup is not good but don't make it worse by playing scared.
Chalice is ofc a house, Moxen are important and Wastelands key. Don't forget you can Wasteland "nothing"(target itself). Won a game at GP by wastelanding themselfs so he couldn't respond with a lethal price of progress.
You usually prefer fetching wastelands with knight when a Chalice is on the table than start attacking.
Eidolon is a bitch, kill it for me plz.

The sideboard is tricky and I always do something different. Charm are obviosly good cause enchantments and regen. Thalias and Canonists are also fine and attack which is great.

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Interesting, what was the reasoning behind dropping the Tabernacle? Admittedly, I play with one because I own one but I likely wouldn't rush out to buy one if I didn't :) Just curious what he would cut it for (any idea?) and why it wasn't holding it's own as a SB slot.

As for burn, good suggestions, I guess Ooze is a house as well for gaining life and Chalice obviously is great. Maybe I AM playing more scared than I should or maybe it's lack of experience as a pilot on this deck. Thanks for the advice -- do you have any dedicated cards to SB against Burn? You mentioned the Charms, which I found a bit lackluster outside targeting their vortex. Thalia is alright too but it doesn't constrict their mana enough for my liking. Chalice and Ooze are the only rock solid cards I have against them and if I don't draw them early, I'm usually dead before it matters. Good trick/suggestion on PoP though (God I hate that card).

@Rhox
If I am not mistaken, it got cut for the sulfur elemental. Page ~120 should have his thoughts on it I guess.

Charm also kills eidolon which is fine I guess.
The hate bears come in primarily for the beats because we need pressure, the added bonus is disruption.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

What is the plan against merfolk? They just dump so many fish and I can't edict the nemesis.

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The thing about Merfolk is that the last bit of your sentence is the only part that matters. True-Name Nemsis is the only way they can reliably beat you. Otherwise they have to jump through an absurd amount of hoops in order to get through for lethal. Up until then, all of your draws mean they can't win. Punishing Fire is commonly game over if you can establish it before they can stack enough Lords. Abrupt Decay does what it always does. Liliana naturally a house. They have no way to reliably deal with Knight of the Reliquary. If they're dumb enough to swing in, trading a Dark Confidant is almost always a net gain. Etc.

Truth is that while the consistency of their beats is frequently enough to bring many decks to their knees, that's not the case with Loam. Their only option is a naturally-drawn True-Name Nemesis. And sometimes it even takes multiples to drag out a victory. It's not like they can islandstrut their way past whatever creatures we throw out, and the deck packs enough removal to keep the swarm at bay.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

EDIT: is anyone going to MKMSeries Prague? Just bought my plane ticket and maybe some fellow Loamers will join?

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USA

:(

I did get to say hi to two other Loamers at Eternal Weekend though.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

@Warden you guys must have tutors in your hands :) I just can't seem to find enough removal. Also I am running Pulse over Deluge in the SB which is a bit different in this matchup...

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The stock lists have you running 9 dedicated removal spells and Maze as pseudo removal (1 out 6 cards within the maindeck). Then throw in stuff that can straight up beat them: Library (the tutoring you want), Knights, Loam, and Wastelands (as Merfolks runs lots of nonbasics). I'm not even considering Chalice, which can seriously thwart them should you chalice for 1 on the play (once they land vial you either abandon chalice being relevant OR you can blow it up existing vial(s) and prevent additional ones from appearing due to Chalice @ 1). Your cards pretty much beat theirs with the exception of blowouts like triple lord. I don't think my hands have been crazy good either, but I'm statistically going to have a strong % of opening hands contain 1 piece of removal. Also, keep in mind Merfolks lacks removal (outside of 8 counterspells), so Confidants and Knights just hang around generating value. You open yourself up to having Knight be a strong blocker + tutor before damage for Maze or Grove + prevent a large mess from happening.

Games 2 and 3, you can drop Teeg (turns off only FoW) and Chalice for Rec Sage/Choke (if you want)/Toxic/Tabernacle (if you're lucky enough to own one). If you run Pulse, that's an okay card. It just doesn't wipe the table indiscriminately like Toxic can. Toxic is one of the few SB cards that can kill TNN with multiple Lords. If you're one of the people running Containment Priest, that card also acts as "removal"...being that vial-ing in creatures leads to exile.

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Originally Posted by Warden

If you're one of the people running Containment Priest, that card also acts as "removal"...being that vial-ing in creatures leads to exile.

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While Priest does render Vial useless, you will never get to exile any creatures with that interaction, because they can always choose not to Vial in anything even if you land Priest in response to Vial activation. It's a nice tempo play, but they will just cast their creature manually next turn.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

I really like the matchup against S&S, I think we are favorable with Lilis and Knight. The only way I see to lose is S&T -> Sneack Attack and even then....
I am one of the few players who thinks Burn is average. Being 7-1 against them in GPs and Major tournaments I still think it is average because we can't win against some draws.
I put the worst matchups as:
Merfolk(I cannot win this matchup, don't judge me!)
Omni
Reanimate(I still think they are to fast)

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I haven't played quite as many matches as you clearly have, but burn is winnable. I used to play burn a ton so I know the deck quite well. Get your forest first, hope for Mox Diamonds, and get and leave up Wasteland always. Pressure them as you can, but also be ready to Knight away another nonbasic if the inevitable Price of Progress comes along. You're an underdog, but depending on which cards they draw when, you can absolutely win. Teeg shuts off Fireblast, Chalice shuts off most of the deck, so then Price is your remaining concern. They will Smash to Smithereens your Chalice eventually, so a 2nd one on 1 seems fine...or if you're way ahead and can kill with what's on board, you can play one on 2 as well. I don't think you can afford to resolve a Bob. Ever. I'm 1-0 against burn with the list...super close, but if you play well and catch a break, you'll win.

Omni is hard. I am 1-0 against it, but opponent stumbled a bit (definitely didn't nut-draw me). Chalice on 1 is sweet, and if you can resolve another one on 3, You should just shut them out since S&T and Cunning Wish are shut off(unless they brought a 2-mana bounce spell into the maindeck in games 2/3). Teeg stops Dig Through Time and Force of Will which means they could still stumble. Canonist and Thalia are also annoying (hard to tell if you should cast early or hold for S&T...probably depends if you already have pressure in play) And then Slaughter Games on S&T is game over. But if they just have everything in their opener, you may be dead.

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Originally Posted by haymaker18

I haven't played quite as many matches as you clearly have, but burn is winnable. I used to play burn a ton so I know the deck quite well. Get your forest first, hope for Mox Diamonds, and get and leave up Wasteland always. Pressure them as you can, but also be ready to Knight away another nonbasic if the inevitable Price of Progress comes along. You're an underdog, but depending on which cards they draw when, you can absolutely win. Teeg shuts off Fireblast, Chalice shuts off most of the deck, so then Price is your remaining concern. They will Smash to Smithereens your Chalice eventually, so a 2nd one on 1 seems fine...or if you're way ahead and can kill with what's on board, you can play one on 2 as well. I don't think you can afford to resolve a Bob. Ever. I'm 1-0 against burn with the list...super close, but if you play well and catch a break, you'll win.

Omni is hard. I am 1-0 against it, but opponent stumbled a bit (definitely didn't nut-draw me). Chalice on 1 is sweet, and if you can resolve another one on 3, You should just shut them out since S&T and Cunning Wish are shut off(unless they brought a 2-mana bounce spell into the maindeck in games 2/3). Teeg stops Dig Through Time and Force of Will which means they could still stumble. Canonist and Thalia are also annoying (hard to tell if you should cast early or hold for S&T...probably depends if you already have pressure in play) And then Slaughter Games on S&T is game over. But if they just have everything in their opener, you may be dead.

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I actually am super aggressive against Burn. Since the MU is not favorable I go straight in with bobs and the like. Trying to be explosive right of the bat. Post sideboard I usually cut a couple of Bobs but I won a game 1 with three on the table :) The beats were hard and he didn't wanna kill them. Fine by me :)

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

I actually am super aggressive against Burn. Since the MU is not favorable I go straight in with bobs and the like. Trying to be explosive right of the bat. Post sideboard I usually cut a couple of Bobs but I won a game 1 with three on the table :) The beats were hard and he didn't wanna kill them. Fine by me :)

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That's really intriguing! I guess they certainly block Goblin Guide and Swiftspear, so it's not terribly risky. I will have to test that more. It does make sense that you want to make the game as few turns as possible (unless you have a piece or two of inevitability like Chalice) so doing everything you can to cut them off from extra draw steps seems great.

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Originally Posted by haymaker18

That's really intriguing! I guess they certainly block Goblin Guide and Swiftspear, so it's not terribly risky. I will have to test that more. It does make sense that you want to make the game as few turns as possible (unless you have a piece or two of inevitability like Chalice) so doing everything you can to cut them off from extra draw steps seems great.

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Pilhas's strat is correct. Inevitability is on their side, and as good as Chalice is, it's not going to win the game alone. You need to present a clock, and the deck has very few ways of making it happen. So, while taking Dark Confidant out is an option if you do actually have other pieces to replace him with, it's usually something that's done with too much gut feeling. Dark Confidant has legs, and he draws you cards. Sure, he draws those cards at the expense of life, but that life loss usually averages out to slightly below one per turn. Even against Burn that's a pretty sweet deal. The only trouble really comes when you see nothing but Bobs. Like, Bob drawing into other things is great. Bob drawing into other Bobs is pretty weak, and not only because it comes at the cost of more life. There's really just a point when Goblin Piker isn't the thing you need.

I usually try to shave one Dark Confidant if I can, but it's not uncommon for me to just leave the full set in.

If anyone has opinions on this, I would love to hear them: I would like to know why this deck is not putting up the great results of R/G Combo Lands lately? Other than the aggro loam finishes in GP Lille, RG combo lands has been on a seemingly superior blitzkrieg throughout the USA and Europe! I have run the RG deck a few times and find it to be wildly inconsistent, very easy to hate out, and pretty difficult to play well--and specifically hard to play around the hate your opponent could have in post-board games.

Our aggro loam deck is consistent, hard to hate out, plays lots of powerful cards, gives us a variety of ways to win a game, and has a very versatile sideboard (unlike the RG lands list). My results have been extremely good with aggro loam, but I felt a bit lost when playing RG and confused as to how people are crushing with it. Can anyone enlighten me? RG seems like a 90/10 matchup type of deck where you can easily lose a game due to a very minor (possibly imperceptible) mistake. Is the aggro loam list not well positioned right now? I guess it could be metagame differences--or even a player preference for the Stage/Depths combo--but I remain flummoxed as to why RG lands is getting all the press and results lately.

There were 6 people that were identified to be on 4cLoam in GP Lille. 2 of them top8ed. I'd be shocked if there were 2 strong 4cLoam pilots per SCG event.

Other than that apparently ComboLands has a really high win percentage.

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Originally Posted by haymaker18

If anyone has opinions on this, I would love to hear them: I would like to know why this deck is not putting up the great results of R/G Combo Lands lately? Other than the aggro loam finishes in GP Lille, RG combo lands has been on a seemingly superior blitzkrieg throughout the USA and Europe! I have run the RG deck a few times and find it to be wildly inconsistent, very easy to hate out, and pretty difficult to play well--and specifically hard to play around the hate your opponent could have in post-board games.

Our aggro loam deck is consistent, hard to hate out, plays lots of powerful cards, gives us a variety of ways to win a game, and has a very versatile sideboard (unlike the RG lands list). My results have been extremely good with aggro loam, but I felt a bit lost when playing RG and confused as to how people are crushing with it. Can anyone enlighten me? RG seems like a 90/10 matchup type of deck where you can easily lose a game due to a very minor (possibly imperceptible) mistake. Is the aggro loam list not well positioned right now? I guess it could be metagame differences--or even a player preference for the Stage/Depths combo--but I remain flummoxed as to why RG lands is getting all the press and results lately.

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I think a high level of consistency is what makes Lands so good (obviously this is still variable-compare games they have Exploration/Manabond to games they don't). The deck has two colors, is almost all engine, mulligans well, is difficult to effectively interact with, doesn't really care which zone its cards are in, and is even more oppressive towards certain strategies. Graveyard hate is obviously very good against lands, but they have a pile of Grips in their board and can still Marit Lage you without their graveyard. I think our deck is much more prone to drawing hands that "go nowhere" and less consistent overall.

I played this deck at the SCG Invy / Premier IQ. Playing the stock list with 1/1 split of thalia/canonist and 1 sulfur elemental.

2-2 at the Invy legacy portion, started 2-0 beating Storm and RUG delver. Rounds 3 & 4 consisted of games against both U/R delver decks/pilots that top 8'ed the invitational. The one of vapor snag got me good in round 3.

With the prevalence of delver, I swapped the sulfur elemental into a molten vortex.

5-4 at premier IQ.
Losses: BRUg Delver, Omnitell, Miracles and RUG delver.
Wins: Grixis Control, Miracles, Lands, Death&Taxes and Elves.

Of the 4 delver decks I lost too over the weekend (which I thought was a good matchup!), 3 of the 4 involved hard to kill creatures: Nimble Mongoose, Gurmag Angler and True Name Nemesis.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I think a high level of consistency is what makes Lands so good (obviously this is still variable-compare games they have Exploration/Manabond to games they don't). The deck has two colors, is almost all engine, mulligans well, is difficult to effectively interact with, doesn't really care which zone its cards are in, and is even more oppressive towards certain strategies. Graveyard hate is obviously very good against lands, but they have a pile of Grips in their board and can still Marit Lage you without their graveyard. I think our deck is much more prone to drawing hands that "go nowhere" and less consistent overall.

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I agree with you, but I feel like this deck has a slightly better matchup against Omni than Lands does. There are consistency issues, but you're playing 4 colors, so that is inevitable! This deck is also prone to drawing 7: "If your on deck A, I can't loose, but if your deck B I can't win hands."

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Originally Posted by haymaker18

If anyone has opinions on this, I would love to hear them: I would like to know why this deck is not putting up the great results of R/G Combo Lands lately? Other than the aggro loam finishes in GP Lille, RG combo lands has been on a seemingly superior blitzkrieg throughout the USA and Europe! I have run the RG deck a few times and find it to be wildly inconsistent, very easy to hate out, and pretty difficult to play well--and specifically hard to play around the hate your opponent could have in post-board games.

Our aggro loam deck is consistent, hard to hate out, plays lots of powerful cards, gives us a variety of ways to win a game, and has a very versatile sideboard (unlike the RG lands list). My results have been extremely good with aggro loam, but I felt a bit lost when playing RG and confused as to how people are crushing with it. Can anyone enlighten me? RG seems like a 90/10 matchup type of deck where you can easily lose a game due to a very minor (possibly imperceptible) mistake. Is the aggro loam list not well positioned right now? I guess it could be metagame differences--or even a player preference for the Stage/Depths combo--but I remain flummoxed as to why RG lands is getting all the press and results lately.

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I feel that our deck have a lot of complicated intricacies that most don't understand while playing. I saw a lot of people(myself included) lose with the deck by fetching the wrong land t1 and only having impact t4, but enough to lose the game. The mulligan decisions are really complicated. When to dredge/when to dredge with sylvan lib/when to pay life with sylvan lib. When to fetch lands with knight. when to go for waste lock. When to grove the fires back.
All these decisions are really complicated and are usually multiple of them at the same time.
You talk about having high finishes in GP Lille but the 3 people that did don't have much visibility due to being in Europe. The only person that I ever saw having multiple high finishes in high profile tournaments is Niklas, who created the deck.

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

With the prevalence of delver, I swapped the sulfur elemental into a molten vortex.

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Is this the best option? Kind of awkward with Chalice.

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Originally Posted by Dissection

Is this the best option? Kind of awkward with Chalice.

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I find a bit strange since we usually have a good MU against delver.
Since maCHOOga said that the most problematic cards in the MU were the difficult-to-deal creatures I would expect a card targeted to them like Deluge/Pulse/Edict/Cut