Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
This sort of covers Goblins' answer to almost anything: More Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblin Piledriver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
This sort of covers Goblins' answer to almost anything: More Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblin Piledriver
I was thinking about making goblins. How cheap is it to make the deck? Can it go mono-red and be semi-competitive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I know others think differently about it, but I currently feel like Mono Red is actually the best version. I have all the fetches and the duals but still play Mono Red, the same goes for GreenOne. I know others disagree and I respect that opinion, but Mono R certainly is a viable budget option, that is if you actually play the good Goblins obviously. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
Maybe now is the time to go RU Goblins? :tongue:
I'm honestly considering monored goblins with a blue splash for 4x stifle, it should be loads of fun!
Curfew for your Matrons, Ringleaders, Hooligans...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm
Just a question that came up recently in a discussion I had, why is Kiki Jiki never used nowdays? It was pretty popular before, and performs the same role as Wort, except for mono-red and R/G decks. It can also break deadlocks, especially against Affinity decks. Anyone?
Kiki Jiki rarely does something more of Siege Gang Commander, and often does something less. To break Affinity's stalemates, try SGC, it works wonders. Also, topdecking SGC with an empty board is a thing, while KJ just beats for 2. Kiki has a nasty mana cost with the triple R and doesn't work if they remove the target of your copy. It's also quite easy to burn/remove, where SGC leaves us with 3 fresh new brothers, and sometimes also Shock our opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr4g0n
Kiki Jiki is good to run (even in multiples) in versions exploiting combos like Kiki Jiki + Lightning Crafter + sacrifice effect (prospector, sledder, food chain) or Matron + Food Chain (matron for kiki, play kiki, copy matron for kiki, play kiki... repeat until you play a Pyromancer and swing for 20+).
I heard mention of FCG and couldn't help but chyme in.
I've never really understood the aversion to Kiki, while it's true that he can set you up for a let down, more often than not he will win you games while on the table. And with the loss of Fanatic I would think Prospector/Kiki/Crafter would be an easy inclusion for another win condition. And an alternate win plan through moat and the like is never anything to scoff at. And Crafter only gets better with Vial.
Sure he's better in a list built to abuse him, but all parts of the combo are still solid cards that all help the primary plan, and provide different options for winning.
The problem is that those cards are usually inferior to the other cards you could run in their place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eseph
You either have to take 2 approaches:
- You play just 1-2 copies of the 3 combo cards: assembling the combo gets quite difficult, and it's going to happen only in the late game.
- Maximize the number of the combo cards (prospector, kiki, crafter): your deck is full of chaff. Your curve at 4cc and 5cc is way too high, and you actually have to find those 12 slots.
Aggro-combo is my favourite archetype, but i don't believe that this one is that good. In fact it's usually worse than regular goblin builds.
That said, if anyone wants to test a version, here's a build I'm suggesting. Tell us how it goes!
// Lands
16 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
2 [ON] Skirk Prospector
2 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 Open Slots
Meanwhile, I'm testing (under Mantis' suggestion) a monored list with 1 Caverns, 2 Fanatics, 2 Tinkerers and 2 Stingscourger. It works wonders.
I can also recommend MonoRed. The manabase is superstable and you can cover most weak spots with your SB.
My main:
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Stingscourger
Pretty basic, the only unusual choices are the last four slots. War-Marshal is underrated, there are a lot of synergies. Lightning Crafter has also convinced me the more I play with it, you can do plays that otherwise you wouldn't be able to do.
The SB is obviously dependant on the metagame, but I can list mine if requested.
Some times I wonder why Goblins is in the Dtb at all. However, I am sure of two things. Firstly that any list that doesnt run wierding will be poor in any metagame, and two, that post M10 the deck is only going to get weaker.
The manabase is just fine. 16 red sources is enough to run it, and your only making the deck better running black, both for Wierding in the main and Perish in the board. Unfortunately in the current metagame Goblins is simply worse than Merfolk. Even the decks i thought would be worse against Goblins seem to beat the deck regardless. At this point there are no matchups for the deck which are favorable and can be considered a metagame presense. Why does everyone want to play this deck and face an unhill battle in every single round of a tournament?
I'm glad there's someone saying it, cause we need more people like you. This way people will stop playing Pyroclasms, Engineered Plagues, and the other cards that are needed to keep this deck in check.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Goblins has a favourable matchup against Merfolk, Survival, Team America and a fair matchup against Countertop, Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Dragon Stompy and landstill (if you're still running ports).
I don't wanna say that Rb is unviable, but surely monored has its uses, in having a much more stable manabase, uncounterable removal that draws (even if doesn't remove everything), powerful tempo tools like Stingscourger and Mogg War Marshall, and Rishadan Port (that helps greatly against Landstill) and it's obviously better in the mirror.
People is less and less approaching the game with "do I have an answer to turn 1 Lackey?", so it's also happening more to connect with it.
I tested the deck quite a lot in the last days, with the new rules. Fanatic is not fantastic anymore, but still a nice 1cc drop. The other changes are not effecting much the deck. Often stacking damage before sac with SGC was not game deciding, as it was cycling incinerator with dmg on stack.
Because Merfolk is a very good match, you won't lose to many kinds of Dreadstill/Landstill builds (especially since they focus less and less on beating Gobs), you should be the favorite against most Countertop-builds, should be the favorite against most Survival-builds and have a respectable game vs. base-red aggro of all kinds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
It seems like the the only really bad MUs of relevance are Tempo Thresh (a deck you still have game against, as long as they don't SB too many Pyroclasms), Tendrils and mayhap Aggro Loam.
I'm also curious as to why you consider Weirdings such a must; the decks it used to be awesome against are packing more and more crap that gets in the way of it doing its thing (nowadays you might hit a Trygon Predator or your own Sowered/Shackled creature or Confi instead of that Goyf you wanted gone, or that Trinket Mage/Factory instead of that Dreadnought), and it's an uncheatable 2-drop which seems fairly bad with Counterbalance and Spell Snare having heavy metagame presence.
Besides, Stingscourger does the job of "spot removal" pretty well for this deck as you tend to be able to overwhelm any deck's Goyfs in midgame regardless, and you really only need them out of the way long enough to swing for the fences.
And if you're really disillusioned with Vial Goblins as it stands you're always welcome in the Food Chain camp... I don't have enough testing numbers to say anything definitively but the only matchup that FCG seems to have worse than gobs is the Merfolk Match, everything else is generally easier to work through, and you're far less likely to lose to random jank.
Also for GreenOne's suggested Crafter/Kiki list, I don't think you really even need to spend that many resources on it. Not dedicating more to it it will always be more of an "Oops I win" kind of setup (which isn't terribly hard to pull off anyways). Matron will always be the best way, and if you leave it to 1 Crafter you can just pull it out when necessary, plus Crafter really has more potential on his own then people give him credit for. Personally for a mono red list I would take GreenOne's and do this:
-1 Lightning Crafter
-1 Siege-Gang Commander
-1 Gempalm Incinerator
+1 Sharposhooter/Prospector based on preference
+2 Stingscourger
Drops the curve a bit and gives a better removal suite (IMO), also I tend to prefer Kiki to SGC, so anyone not comfortable with him would be better off with a 2/1 split in favour of SGC. This also lowers the curve in to a more reasonable one.
Happy_Gilmore does have a point. I have felt about Goblins the same way many times before. But I love Goblins, it's a very consistent deck that beats the two best decks in the format; Merfolk and CB/Top. Also, it's the deck I play best.
Playing a ton of Goblins I came to three conclusion;
I hate Fanatic.
I hate splashing colors.
I love Rishadan Port and without Port this deck is not viable.
@Eseph:
That deck doesn't have Port, so I can already tell that the Landstill and the combo matchup are worse. That said, I might give it a spin sometime.
You'd be surprised what Chalice of the Void, and Leyline of Lifeforce out of the board can accomplish. Landstill more or less evens out, but the combo match is actually better thanks to chalice, and the ability to race a turn 2 win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
Hi, could you expand on why you like Port so much and what is your Port strategy going into the key matchups?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
Thanks.
I won a tourney today 20 something players (22 I believe but not sure). I won a Taiga and an Unlimited Sea. I'll do a quick tourney report:
I played the following decklist:
4 Lackey/Piley/Chief/Ringleader/Matron/Vial (these are out of the question)
4 Gempalm Incinerator (so insane, I would never run less than 4)
3 Relic of Progenitus (was nice, I was having problems with Goyfs and Tombstalkers in testing, these solved that nicely. They were very good and when they were useless I just cycled them and never cared)
2 Siege Gang Commander (2 is the right number in this list)
3 War Marshall (I loved them, they won me a ton of games. They were insane, I highly recommend them to everyone who can remember to pay the upkeep when they need to ;).
1 Stingscourger (I hate these but one was okay I guess)
4 Port (useful at times, they werent as spectacular as I had hoped but randomly useful)
4 Wasteland
23 Mountain (the right number for this list with 7 draw spells)
0 Fanatic, this is probably why I won today. These are awful, cut them seriously.
SB:
4 REB (good against Merfolk and Combo, I like these)
1 Relic (to round them out)
3 Pyrokinesis (I don't like them at all, going to cut these)
4 Chalice (never needed them, good to have them regardless)
1 Boartusk Liege (I wanted to run 4 and cut the Pyrokinesis, but I only had 1)
2 Goblin Tinkerer (never needed them)
I need to rethink the sideboard, it's going to include 4 Liege to deal with Plague, 4 REB, 4 Chalice and 1 Relic and 2 random slots.
Round 1: Merfolk
G1 I do my thing, he draws land I have like 20 goblins on board and alpha strike him.
G2 I fan 3 REBs, the 1 Kinesis I sided in, a War Marshal and a few lands. I dont really know what happened here but he hits Kira and my hand is kind of dead. I lose to his Vial and the beatings that proceed. I sided out the Relics because they suck in this match.
G3: I have 1000 goblins on board and he plays Propaganda, I REB he has FoW... I drop Siege Gang, and play around Sower the whole time (Vial @ 4) and win in an elegant way. I think I played this game really well, but my buddy Duncan thought I could have killed him earlier. I like to think I just played it safe and never let him have the chance to kill me off with a Jitte + Mutavault which he had (I had Port for it!)
Round 2: Enchantress.
0-2, you know how it goes...
Round 3: Enchantress AGAIN FFS!
He keeps a bad hand with 2 Savannah, I Waste first turn as I know Enchantress usually leads with basics, he must be mana screwed. He also thought a while before deciding to keep his hand so I played this well. I drop Lackey, he never hits a second manasource while I kill him
G2: he does his thing when he's on 2 or something (stupid Solitary Confinement)
G3: I get him down to low, he stabilizes with Confinement + Enchantress Presence, which he had to drop soon because of the pressure. Because of that he starts running out of gas and has only lands he has to sac his Confinement and I kill him.
Round 4: ANT
A bad matchup again I guess?
He keeps 2 bad hands, I kill him on turn 4 twice, NICE.
Round 5: Eva Green.
I misplay due to dehydration I guess and no fresh air. I'm still pissed at myself, I even missed a Vial trigger, I attacked with a Lackey into a 1/2 Goyf as I thought I had removed the yards with Relic (I even had the second Relic in my hand so it really shouldnt have happened). I lose 0-2 due to a lot of misplays. I should take better care of myself next time.
I somehow T8 with this record (only 22 players I guess..)
T8:
Some kind of ITF with Lorescale Coatls.
I have a good matchup and beat him, though I didn't really play all that well game 1 I did own him the second two. In the last game he made a misplay of taking over a tapped Warchief and not waiting untill my untap steps. He tries to undo his play but I tell him he can't. I win because of his sloppy play and the good matchup. He was a good player though, so he just had a brainfart I guess.
T4
Vs Eva Green again.
This time I drunk a lot of water and play extremely tight. I am rewarded as he makes some sloppy plays. War Marshal + Incinerator was insane.
Finals:
My opponent has to concede as he has to go, I had a good matchup anyway so I think I would have won. He was some kind of slow Rock deck.
Conclusion: yeah I only have a 5-2 record (should have been 6-1 though if I didn't play so sloppy). Goblins is good however, this list played extremely well. I am really happy with my result against all those bad matchups :).
Grats on the finish, it's good to hear some positive news.
I must say I agree with you on Mogg War Marshall, as of now it looks like he's replacing the Mogg Fanatics, even though his role is entirely different, he fits nicely in the deck and has good synergy.
As for relic, I sort of disagree with your reasoning. You mention Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker being a problem, Tarmogoyf is a problem that relic doesn't fix and Tombstalker is much better dealt with by Stingscourger as is Phyrexian Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher and Lorescale Couatl and many other big fatties. That doesn't mean that Relic is a bad card, it has its uses in several matchups Loam and Dredge being the most dominant ones.
As for stingscourger, he also makes sure your Lackey connects when on the play against their 2 drop, Bob, Goyf or whatever they drop and has all advantages of being a goblin.
I'm not sure though, I'm currently testing with 4 Mogg War Marshals I'm just unsure if their powerlevel is good enough. They've been pretty decent at stalling and making sure that my Incinerator does enough damage (running 4 as well) . Seems like the Piledriver way (throw more goblins at a problem) seems to work quite decently.
Another card that has been great is the Boartusk Liege, every time I board him in he's been great to me, it's unfortunate this deck is so tight. It sort of makes a Pyroclasm less devastating then it could be it also makes your swarm of 1/1's a force to be reckoned with.
Current MB list for me is the same as yours with
-3 relic
+1 SGC
+1 Mogg War Marshal
+1 Sting
Anyway, food for thought.