All B/R update speculation.

Interesting thought. I like it. Might test that in a vintage build for the fun of it.

Here is the thing, I have never said it was safe to unban. Ever. So you are openly fighting with someone that is on your side. All I was saying is I thought the change would be an interesting one and I stand by that statement. I would like to see the change but I have never once said the card was safe.

Also that is change to elves from the combo version, it would be a new build not elves as they are now. There would be two different and distinct decks.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Interesting thought. I like it. Might test that in a vintage build for the fun of it.

Here is the thing, I have never said it was safe to unban. Ever. So you are openly fighting with someone that is on your side. All I was saying is I thought the change would be an interesting one and I stand by that statement. I would like to see the change but I have never once said the card was safe.

Also that is change to elves from the combo version, it would be a new build not elves as they are now. There would be two different and distinct decks.

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Nothing is interesting about a meta full of decks with the same broken artifact.

Double agree on Skullclamp being interesting. Idle speculation is fun.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Nothing is interesting about a meta full of decks with the same broken artifact.

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Are you sure? *cough* Vintage *cough*

I think it is highly dependent on details like the specific "broken" artifact in question and what other cards are legal in the format. However, I'm pretty confident I agree with you regarding Skullclamp in the current iteration of Legacy. It might be different if clamp was joined by some rivals being pardoned alongside for "balance", but at that point we're just talking a shitty version of magical christmas land (i.e. nope, not yours, at least in Legacy) for those of us that enjoy our Magic games with the safety off. The powers that be would probably still just fuck it up somehow anyway. The important reasons Skullclamp should be banned in Legacy are the card itself is too stupid looking and it just is not nearly entertaining enough in its "brokenness". You can't play it in style and it isn't that fun anyway. There are better ways to draw cards, if that's what you're into.

Is Earthcraft banned because of Squirrel Nest or its power level in a deck like Elves? I feel like Earthcraft is the most unbannable card in the format.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Is Earthcraft banned because of Squirrel Nest or its power level in a deck like Elves? I feel like Earthcraft is the most unbannable card in the format.

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Nest. Elves don't need it. We make mana just fine without the enhancement and it can't untap Cradle so it's not that useful. A slot uses for something else. The Nest combo is what got it banned.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

I would estimate that Elves and Enchantress keep it banned for so long, but at least Elves doesn't need it anymore with the current iteration

It could be a nice little thing with an untapped Cradle and the possibility to fetch hoof in a tight spot.

Still. Very situational.

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

It could be a nice little thing with an untapped Cradle and the possibility to fetch hoof in a tight spot.

Still. Very situational.

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"untap target basic land"

I'll agree that Earthcraft might actually be unbannable now that the Words of Wind + Exploration interaction isn't quite so ridiculous.

Honestly, with the recent work put into Elves and with Theros basically 1/3 of the Expansion being Enchantments, neither Elves nor Enchantress need a potential boost.

Edit: Bet they trade in Earthcraft for the next card they ban in Legacy.

I think part of the reason Show and Tell isn't placing more often is that it's just not a deck that the best players like to play. Keep in mind that I don't think Show and Tell should be banned right now.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Edit: Bet they trade in Earthcraft for the next card they ban in Legacy.

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I don't know what you mean by that.

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Originally Posted by clavio

I think part of the reason Show and Tell isn't placing more often is that it's just not a deck that the best players like to play. Keep in mind that I don't think Show and Tell should be banned right now.



I don't know what you mean by that.

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it means that when they ban another card in Legacy, They will ALSO unban earthcraft.

Earthcraft is fine, it leads to a 2 card combo, which is allowable in legacy.

The stuff that needs to remain banned are cards that are 1 card combo, like hermit druid.

They should probably also unban oath of druids. Since it has no immediate impact when its played, and you have to waititll your upkeep to use it. Also its practically worthless against other combo decks, and for the majority of the matchup against control. Also to activate it it has a conditional. Having to give your opponent a creature, which means its requires another card for its combo, forbidden orchard i think.

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Originally Posted by apple713

it means that when they ban another card in Legacy, They will ALSO unban earthcraft.

Earthcraft is fine, it leads to a 2 card combo, which is allowable in legacy.

The stuff that needs to remain banned are cards that are 1 card combo, like hermit druid.

They should probably also unban oath of druids. Since it has no immediate impact when its played, and you have to waititll your upkeep to use it. Also its practically worthless against other combo decks, and for the majority of the matchup against control. Also to activate it it has a conditional. Having to give your opponent a creature, which means its requires another card for its combo, forbidden orchard i think.

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First, you are correct about the B&R card-swap. WotC has shown a habit of doing that in the past to pat their own shoulders of how they keep the B&R list small and keep cleaning it.

Oath is a one-card-combo in Legacy most of the time. People complain about S&T as a 2-card-combo and you want Oath unbanned which doesn't even need the creature in hand but somewhere in the deck AND is even cheaper than S&T? No Chance in hell. Playing creatures would be an automatic drawback if every control deck just needs 4 Oath and a single Griselbrand to torture you (imagine it being run with Counterbalance!).

I kinda feel like I'm falling for the troll here, but do you really not see how Oath of Druids is basically a 1 card S&T?

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Originally Posted by apple713

They should probably also unban oath of druids. Since it has no immediate impact when its played, and you have to waititll your upkeep to use it. Also its practically worthless against other combo decks, and for the majority of the matchup against control. Also to activate it it has a conditional. Having to give your opponent a creature, which means its requires another card for its combo, forbidden orchard i think.

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Can we just copy and paste the ten pages where this was discussed at length or do we have to go through this again?

Basically Oath is just way too good AND it is a combo that completely fits in sideboards. No thank you.

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Originally Posted by evilGod

I kinda feel like I'm falling for the troll here, but do you really not see how Oath of Druids is basically a 1 card S&T?

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Legacy is a format in which about 95% of the decks kill their opponent with creatures + Oath of Druids triggers if your opponent controls more creatures than you + you only have 1-2 Fatties as creatures in your deck = opponent casts a creature -> you get a fatty in your upkeep

Edit: I agree with Holmes to stifle the topic "Oath of Druids" right here. It's always the same cards discussed over and over

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Legacy is a format in which about 95% of the decks kill their opponent with creatures + Oath of Druids triggers if your opponent controls more creatures than you + you only have 1-2 Fatties as creatures in your deck = opponent casts a creature -> you get a fatty in your upkeep

Edit: I agree with Holmes to stifle the topic "Oath of Druids" right here. It's always the same cards discussed over and over

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i think your numbers are skewed on how many decks actually win with creatures. For example, consider the following decks

S&T
Omnitell
ANT
TES

Painterstone
High tide
Burn
Lands.dec


The top 4 decks are all decks to beat and would oath probably would never trigger in those matches. The bottom 4 decks while not decks to beat are still played and would almost be immune.

Now consider that against miracles it wouldnt trigger. the deck could avoid playing creautre till they had an answer for oath...

SO, that leave you with all the aggro decks getting gang banged by a combo card... They usually get raped by combo decks anyways so there is almost no change here except just a different combo in the format that isnt really any faster than a reanimator strategy. The difference here is that aggro decks actually stand a chance. Aggro decks can kill oath before it triggers, Abrupt decay, krosan grip, qsali pridemage, mangara, theres tons of removal.

Oath is Defintaly not a sideboard card.... you have to have fattys in your deck to make it useful or you sideboard 6 cards, 4 oath and 2 fattys against all aggro decks? If thats the case all aggro decks should be packing removal that takes care of it anyways. seems like a non issue.

I'll go back and read the pages about it but i dont think its as broken as its been discussed.

Holy shit.

I guess this card doesn't exist:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/chk/276.jpg

Or this one:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/pc2/57.jpg

Anyways, it completely hoses all creature strategies uniformly which would then push the format to become other Oath decks and non-creature Control and non-creature Combo decks. Seems like a hell of a format to play in. No thanks.

As it stands, I'm hedging my bets at ~%15 that we see SnT banned. Really the only card right now I can see them touching, other than the lottery-odds Brainstorm ban. As it stands, I would really like them to publish the "Watchlist" to see the impact on the secondary market of cards, because I got burned on Time Vault way back in FlameVault land, and it would likely knock $20 off SnT if they are indeed watching it closely.

As for unbans, the list is actually getting really tight. If you eliminate ante/dex/AwkwardRules(TM) (Shaharazad - grrrr) you are only really left with a few options. Here's a curve-ball - Imperial Seal. It's effectively a "fixed" Vampiric Tutor that requires another investment to actually get the card into your hand. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's secretly on the list for Availability reasons, and we haven't seen a Judge Promo to fix that. (HintHintHint...)

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Can we just copy and paste the ten pages where this was discussed at length or do we have to go through this again?

Basically Oath is just way too good AND it is a combo that completely fits in sideboards. No thank you.

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Why do we continue to talk about Oath? It's more degen than Hermit Druid, and that card still causes controversy when it's brought up. We should really have a FAQ for this thread that says "Discussion about Oath of Druids is as irrelevant as discussion of unbanning the P9 in Legacy."

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I just want to mention that Genesis Chamber + Skullclamp + Vault Skirge + Memnite + Ornithopter + Cranial Plating + Signal Pest + Gaea's Cradle rapes Vintage atm. I do not want to see that deck in Legacy just with Sol-Lands instead of Workshops

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"Rapes Vintage" is a strong accusation. "Is a very fun and strong Shop build" is probably more accurate. I like that it's a far less prison-y take on 'Shop, and it seems to change some of the weak spots of more traditional 'Shop strategies. I feel obliged to point out that Sol-lands are WAYYYYYYYYYYY different than 'Shop, especially if you don't have Moxes and Sol Rings to follow it up. You also still don't have Academy, Jar, and Lodestone Golem is less good *but by no means bad!* in Legacy.

But the discussion is moot. I think Clamp would be too strong for a number of reasons, all of which have already been iterated.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Nothing is interesting about a meta full of decks with the same broken *Blue Instant*

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FTFY. Tongue firmly in cheek :wink:

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

As for unbans, the list is actually getting really tight. If you eliminate ante/dex/AwkwardRules(TM) (Shaharazad - grrrr) you are only really left with a few options. Here's a curve-ball - Imperial Seal. It's effectively a "fixed" Vampiric Tutor that requires another investment to actually get the card into your hand. Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that it's secretly on the list for Availability reasons, and we haven't seen a Judge Promo to fix that. (HintHintHint...)

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IMO Imperial Seal is not unban material, and I think WoTC agrees since Mystical Tutor got hit recently.
Earthcraft,Mind Twist,Mind's Desire and Yawgmoth's Bargain are better unban candidates.

Deal won't be unbanned because of the pricetag alone

In my opinion the actual discrepancy is that we're all content to play with and against cards like Delver of Secrets, Jace, Show and Tell, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay etc. but still argue whether things like Mind Twist, Hermit Druid and Black Vise should be unbanned.

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Originally Posted by rufus

IMO Imperial Seal is not unban material, and I think WoTC agrees since Mystical Tutor got hit recently.

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My only argument for Seal is that at Sorcery speed, you don't get to tutor and then untap/draw as part of a game action.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

In my opinion the actual discrepancy is that we're all content to play with and against cards like Delver of Secrets, Jace, Show and Tell, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay etc. but still argue whether things like Mind Twist, Hermit Druid and Black Vise should be unbanned.

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That's like saying that I enjoy Football, so why not just strap knives and machetes to all of the players since it's already violent :p

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

In my opinion the actual discrepancy is that we're all content to play with and against cards like Delver of Secrets, Jace, Show and Tell, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay etc.

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Did you actually just list Show and Tell as a card "we're all content to play against"? It's one of the most disliked cards in Legacy.

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but still argue whether things like Mind Twist, Hermit Druid and Black Vise should be unbanned.

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There's not that much argument on Mind Twist or Hermit Druid. There seems general agreement that Mind Twist would be a safe unban and that Hermit Druid is an absurd card that should not be unbanned. There's a little more disagreement about Black Vise, but honestly, it's tough to take your argument seriously when you seem to be claiming that Hermit Druid is on the same power level as powerful-but-not-broken cards like Delver of Secrets or Jace the Mind Sculptor. They may be good, but they don't have the ability "G, Tap: You win the game".

I'd unban Mind Twist, Frantic Search and Black Vise.

Mind Twist is too slow and/or expensive in a format without Sol Rings.
Frantic Search does little when Dazed/Pierced and even if ti resolves, it still resembles Study/Looting, neither of which are b&.
Black Vise is crap and shouldn't occupy the list.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

I'd unban Mind Twist, Frantic Search and Black Vise.

Mind Twist is too slow and/or expensive in a format without Sol Rings.
Frantic Search does little when Dazed/Pierced and even if ti reloves, it still resembles Study/Looting, neither of which are b&.
Black Vise is crap and should occupy the list.

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I honestly think Search would be stronger than Desire in current legacy. Candelabra, Reset and tournabout, on steroid, with added filter functionality. Untapping 3 is very strong. I'd unban Jar, Earthcraft or Bargain before it.

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

As for imperial seal, every combo deck not already playing black would splash black for it...I think making combo's easier to assemble for all combo decks is not what you want unless you play combo. Then combos become 1 turn faster / more efficient, and you get hozed. Its an auto include 4 of... really? thats what you want?

It makes each combo deck easily 700€ more expensive. That's pretty disgusting and unhealthy for the metagame

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Originally Posted by apple713

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

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Comments like this bother me. "My opinion is right and I am so good I do not need to state what it is. If you disagree with me your a dick that should fuck off and die." Its not at all helpful. Why not put forward your views rather than just flat assume your views are right and everyone else either agrees with you or is unworthy of the game?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

Comments like this bother me. "My opinion is right and I am so good I do not need to state what it is. If you disagree with me your a dick that should fuck off and die." Its not at all helpful. Why not put forward your views rather than just flat assume your views are right and everyone else either agrees with you or is unworthy of the game?

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Tbh the topic of black vise was discussed at least twice in this thread already

Be that as it may, the issue was not with the card but the attitude toward other players that may or may not agree with Apple on that topic. I have no interest in discussing Vise. I have no care about it, what does bother me is the idea that someone can get state "Agree with me or fuck off" and have that just be the end of the topic.

Sure we can discuss behaviour, but I'm often enough in the same mood as Apple: Annoyed about reading the same things and repeating arguments endlessly. It's a long-time effect of being a member here. He doesn't intend to be rude. He's a good one

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Sure we can discuss behaviour, but I'm often enough in the same mood as Apple: Annoyed about reading the same things and repeating arguments endlessly. It's a long-time effect of being a member here. He doesn't intend to be rude. He's a good one

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Because anyone that think Vise should be unbanned should probably just quit playing magic ? No reason to be rude, especially when you bring up a point that was brought out at least three times in this topic and the general consensus is that vise sucks and wouldn't be even played. I was around the first time one made an assessment like he did, and after i tried to convince him Vise was fine by building every shell for it imaginable and testing it, the most the guy could do was dismiss me as "nice joke decks, you shouldn't ever question unbanning black vise". Mighty fine open mindness you have there.

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Originally Posted by apple713

black vise will never be unbanned. Ever, ever never ever, and if you are to foolish to see why, you should probably just quit playing magic.

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This is coming from the guy who thinks Oath "should probably be unbanned". :eyebrow: You're not very good at this game, so try to avoid statements like this. BV is certainly a safer unban than Oath, even if it should probably remain banned.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

It makes each combo deck easily 700€ more expensive. That's pretty disgusting and unhealthy for the metagame

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Because a Sorcery speed tutor that puts a card on top is an auto 4 of in every combo deck. liek, evars!

I think people are too quick to compare this to Vampiric. Then again, I think it would be funny to watch WotC core-set reprint something from P3K since I don't believe it's part of the reprint policy restriction just to watch the Market self-correct from over-inflation left over from IS's vintage restriction.

But it's moot - I don't think WotC can come out officially and say "This card is too expensive, so it's Banned."

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

Because a Sorcery speed tutor that puts a card on top is an auto 4 of in every combo deck. liek, evars!

I think people are too quick to compare this to Vampiric. Then again, I think it would be funny to watch WotC core-set reprint something from P3K since I don't believe it's part of the reprint policy restriction just to watch the Market self-correct from over-inflation left over from IS's vintage restriction.

But it's moot - I don't think WotC can come out officially and say "This card is too expensive, so it's Banned."

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...wait - I remember a good few years ago (shortly before the hardening of the Reprint Policy) when most of the Portal rares were on the List.

Now they're not.

...Weird.

Evidence:
I wonder if anybody feels ready to contribute to this thread with a deck-list inclusive of Black Vise capable to challenge the current Legacy Meta?

I err on the side that is safe to unban it.

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Originally Posted by FieryBalrog

This is coming from the guy who thinks Oath "should probably be unbanned". :eyebrow: You're not very good at this game, so try to avoid statements like this. BV is certainly a safer unban than Oath, even if it should probably remain banned.

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i would bet that black vise being unbanned would be worse for the format than oath. Oath isnt colorless and does not cost 1 mana. Black vise on the play even with only 1 in play will get you about 6 damage. a deck that is designed to abuse it will end up doing a lot more. It would fit effortlessly into ALL mana denial strategies, which is something wizards doesnt want to support. just imagine a sol land deck that dropps 2 vises on their first turn. you start your turn at 14, then if you play a land and a brainstorm, which is probably the most common opening hand ever, you start your second turn at 10.

My argument for oath is that its an enchantment that has a delayed effect. most decks should have an answer for an enchantment, except red. Build your most awesome version of oath and we can get on Cockatrice and test it against the meta and see how well it does.