So is Thunian fit better than Scape fit or is everyone just trying out something new? Obviously each has its own merits, Im just curious to know why everyone is suddenly on Thunian Fit.
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So is Thunian fit better than Scape fit or is everyone just trying out something new? Obviously each has its own merits, Im just curious to know why everyone is suddenly on Thunian Fit.
Alrighty, the report.
Round 1 (Re-animator)
Game 1:
Mull to 5. (first hand, 1 land, 2nd 5 land)
He plays a hapless researcher....and I go shit (no graveyard hate at all)
I attempt the combo but the angel gets forced. He gets Grisel out but I wish for karakas to bounce.
I end up dying to archon.
Game 2:
Early disruption along with Finks and varolz means game 3.
Game 3: (mull to 6)
No good disruption means I die to Sphinx of the Steel Wind.
0-1 (1-2) 3 Mulls
Round 2 (Shardless Bug)
Game 1(mull to 6): I see an Early Jace in his hand, so I get Teeg. Teeg eats a decay. Jace takes over.
Game 2: Stalemate early , leads to double goyf vs sigarda and something else. He plays a strix to protect Jace. Attacks with both goyf into my sigarda....he decays he strix to make his goyf 5/6 and kill my sigarda and then me.
0-2 (1-4) 4 Mulls
I'm a little frustated at this point since I haven't had much success on the weekend (2-4 std, 1-3 legacy challenge) but I keep with it.
Round 3 (Belcher)
Game 1: I open with a thoughtseize and see a belecher and enough to go off. I take the belcher. I slow strip his hand from there while bashing in with Teeg and canonist.
Game 2: I mull to 4, hoping for a trap....I don't find one and I get belched.
Game 3: We both mull to 5. I keep land, 3 deeds and a revoker. He goes for 12 tokens. I peel...a land. Play Revoker. Go to 8 on his attack....my draw....land, slam and blow deed. I tutored up the void to lock him out.
1-2 (3-5) 9 mulls
Round 4 (Burn)
Game 1: I go down to four fearing the fireblast before I get Tusk out. I get a feeder out just in case. Win at 7 life.
Game 2: He sides in pyrostatic pillar to try to burn me out. I end up going to 1 before getting the tusk out, then bounty. Bounty seals it up with a few landfall triggers.
2-2 (5-5) 9 mulls
Round 5 (Dark Maverick/Junk?)
Game 1: He ends playing 2 deathrites and a cursed scroll! after sinkhole a land of mine. I strip his hand of 2 sorins and deed away his board. Sigarda makes quick work of him.
Game 2: He gets a KotR in play but it gets decayed. Thragtusk makes very quick work before he could go for depths/stage. I had a living wish anyways.
3-2 (7-5) 9 mulls
Round 6 (Omni-tell)
Game 1: I thoughtseize him and see lots of blue cards. I take the Force. I therapy something else after. He shows in a Emrakul...me a varolz. He had 2 cards left....I go for the living wish...and forced. Should have flashbacked therapy for force.
Game 2: He mulls 4 for Leyline doesn't get it. I go to 5 because bad land hands (1 then 5 again)
Goes for the show, it resolves....he lands omni...I land Angel of despair....he wishes for rushing river to bounce the omni and angel back. (he was at 13 from varolz beats) Teeg was in play. Canonist joins in and game 3.
Game 3: He mulls to 6 for Leyline, which he gets. Teeg gets out early to stifle his early plays. He keeps digging for a answer but doesn't find one. He had triple dream halls in his hand and at least one force.
4-2 (9-6) 12 mulls.
I hate combo at this point...but keep beating it.
Round 7: (Sneak-show)
Game 1: He mulls to 5. I therapy him probably for a force...and hit. seeing blood moon. He gets a sneak out for Grisel...draw...then emra....at swings...but I'm at 24 since finks. I get him to 12 before he finds another big monster.
Game 2: He goes for the show and tell while tapped out....in comes the sneak attack....and angel of despair from me. A couple of attacks and we go to game 3.
Game 3: He shows in Emrakul pretty early, wipes my board and puts me to 4....I rip....a Karakas! Bounce the biggie. Get a teeg out. I think I got a pridemage out to to deal with a blood moon if it comes out. He doesn't find a sneak attack to show in so he dies.
5-2 (11-7)
Where are the fair decks!?
Round 8: (Belcher?!?, again)
Game 1: He mulls to 5. I pass after playing a forest. He draws and passes. So I therapy him...name belcher....and hit 2! I tear him apart with discard and Tusk seals it.
Game 2: I mull 4 for hate, find none. He goes off turn 1.
Game 3: I draw my 7 and my last card is trap. He goes all in and trap gets him. I get Teeg. Then a feeder...and wish for an angel to finally go infinite.
6-2 (13-8) 15 mulls
I very happy at this point. I've drawn really well and finally have cashed a SCG (I hope)
Round 9: (American Delver)
I'm playing down at this point but I think I can't draw into 32...but this guy can still probably cash with a win.
Game 1: I mull to five due to bad land hands (5, then 1 again). An early thoughtseize reveals his plan. I have a blocker for geist but his karakas keeps him alive. I die soon after.
Game 2: Early giest again, but I have defense in the form of Tusk, sigarda and varolz. varolz gets path and replaced with thrun. He decided not to race and we go to game 3 with about 9 minutes left.
Game 3: He gets a clique out but I decay in response. He gets a geist out, I get blocker. Trade. He gets another Geist on turn 3 of turns. I wish for my fleshbag and he doesn't have the force for it. I'm at 3....and he doesn't rip a bolt. Draw
6-2-1 (14-9-1) 17 mulls. Granted...11 of them were against combo look for hate.
Combo 4-1, Non-combo 2-1-1.
I'll say some more thoughts but it is time to leave work.
I think it gives a better combo matchup with the wish board or hate bears and the ability to just go over the top with non-blue fair decks. Teeg main is awesome. I'm still not sold on safe keeper. I missed ooze a bit. Varolz was alright. 2 thoughtseize seems like a good number. Maybe 1 iok and one thoughtseize. I think I want one Karakas main and one board as a wish target. I'm not sure if batterskull is needed. Revoker has its uses but I might want something like harmonic sliver to tutor up. Swords might to be another decay or pulse/vindicate. Pridemage could be harmonic silver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I like all the non wish cards in the board.
Also, shaheen seemed to be amused by the deck.
I think these Thune lists could use Lingering Souls. The tokens can provide enough bodies with evasion that if you go off your opponent needs mass removal to survive. Even if all you do is land a Finks after Archangel it would make the tokens a quicker clock. You mentioned not being happy with some of the creature choices, maybe it takes those slots.
By the way, I love the Wish board.
The problem with trying to fit souls in, is what to cut? Removal? Perhaps. Less disruption? Also, perhaps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono-Green
I think souls is better in more of a non-combo metagame.
Also, random thought, Brutalizer Exarch to slow and narrow for a 6 drop? Odd way to deal with Jace though. Or back to Vraska?
As far as equipment, sword of body and mind instead batterskull? Life gain doesn't seem to be a problem and Pro jace seems good (or fire and ice better).
With Lingering Souls you could use Primeval Titan to get lands that support the Token theme like Vault of the Archangel, Vitu-Ghazi the City Tree or Gavony Township and Deranged Hermit also becomes an option.
Just as brainstorming Hermit is a card I completely forgot about and might he be playable in general? He is awesome against BUG. 9 Power that are barely affected by Decay and they can't Edict it with Liliana either. Bounce with Jace looks bad, too. Tusk is far less impressive against them. Also still the quickest clock there is against Combo, often two turns faster than Tusk.
The issue with going a more token based route is making your deeds worse. Well less one sided that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
But tokens are relatively cheap and can usually be remade so you don't care too much about losing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Made a few test games with this test list: http://pastebin.com/3f1QaTp9
- Deranged Hermit was awful. Drew it twice and wished badly it was Thragtusk both times. Maybe it was variance but I cut it again. There is a reason why no one plays him anymore. Still seems sweet with Blessing though.
- Lingering Souls was godly. Just flat out amazing.
- Vault of the Archangel was nice. Deathtouch on Lingering Souls tokens is sweet and getting a Lifelink land with Titan is good, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Hermit might be better in lists that run Recurring Nightmare as he could pump out more tokens than Tusk. Or you could go old school with a Fires of Yavimaya build. ;)
Souls has been an outstanding performer for me as well. I've been clogging the ground with Thrun, Tusk, and Garruk tokens then flying over for the victory. Also they're key in taking down opposing Planeswalkers.
I'll have to try Vault. My initial thought was that I didn't want to muddle up the land base with a colorless land that has an expensive activation cost.
For the Thunian lists could a 1 of Sorin, Lord of Innistrad be a possibility. I feel the Lifelink tokens would maybe have some nice synergy with the decks strategy, and if he ultimates it is pretty sweet.
So in the Thunian / Lingering Souls lists I have tested Voice of Resurgence and I was surprised. It is very strong thanks to its versatility. I think it is a 3-off or 4-off. It is a wall against Aggro, clocks Combo and prevents the opponent from Brainstorming during your turn which makes Cabal Therapy much better. It has synergy with Cabal Therapy and the token can get pretty big because of Lingering Souls. You invest little and get a lot back. You have to test it to see how good it actually is, I was surprised too.
Chord of Calling has been good, too, and it also gets boosted by Lingering Souls. Being able to Chord for Ethersworn Canonist, Tidehollow Sculler or Orzhov Pontiff in G2 improves the Combo matchup.
My current Primeval Titan lineup is Vault of the Archangel + Volrath's Stronghold (+ Tower). Township and Vitu-Ghazi were too weak, but the Twin Towers still work and the Vault gets stuff done.
Tao,
mind sharing your current Thunian list?
You have to ask Arian for Combo lists, they are apparently not my thing. I cut the Archangel of Thune combo from it lol. Angel and Feeder were the worst cards in the deck, at least for me. I found that I did not get to combo off enough to play these cards. I guess I have just a different approach to playing and building the deck.
For the token list, I have something. The maindeck spell and land numbers are not perfect yet and the SB is a disaster, but since you asked and I already said that I liked the list I might just post where I am at the moment. For the newer cards: Voice of Resurgence, Lingering Souls and Vault of the Archangel are the breakout cards. They perform much better than I would have expected - not sure how good or bad they would be in a combo list though. Wilt-Leaf Liege over Rector and Armada Wurm as another big guy are solid additions. I still like Varolz.
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Lingering Souls
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eternal Witness
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Armada Wurm
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 1 Thurn, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
You could also try Wolfir over the Armada Wurm. He's easier to cast, cheaper, and he can make those Lingering Souls tokens into real late-game threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Maybe not instead of the Armada Wurm but in addition to it. Armada Wurm is a beating. The list above is too light on threats anyway (like I said the list isn't "ready" yet), and should probably play less Decays and/or Thoughtseizes and more "meat" instead. Wolfir is a good idea, great with the Souls Tokens, gonna add it.
This is the list I've been running the last few weeks:
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:11
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
1 Armada Wurm
Spells:27
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lingering Souls
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands:22
3 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard:15
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
My first run with the deck actually had a Liliana and Elspeth main over the fourth Deed and second Baby Garruk. It turned out to be too hard to balance double black, double white, then triple green. This version has run much smoother.
Over two tournaments my losses have been:
Merfolk - I failed to see that I could machine gun down his Images with Garruk Relentless' fight ability and lose game three because of it. Not having my Carpets with me at this tournament hurt.
4C Loam - I played too aggressive with Lingering Souls. I was winning with Sigarda, and should have recurred the Thrun I lost when I ran him out without regeneration mana openly thought process was that I wanted to keep pressure on him and didn't want to take two turns to Stronghold then play Thrun. Turns out I had more than enough time and should have just cast the first Lingering Souls without flashback to set up Stronghold EOT, then Thrun for victory.
Goblins - I was on tilt after bad plays, tired from taking all the night shifts for my two month old, and in a blasted hot room. All of this led me to the inexcusable mistake of giving Goblin Warchief the lordly +1/+1 bonus. My opponent didn't care to correct me as his now hastened clock beat out the Deed in my hand during both losses.
Manaless Dredge - In game two I kept a hand with Surgical Extraction and Witness on the draw, only to see Surgical stripped off the blind Therapy before I had a target. Flashback nabbed Witness and I wasn't able to do find any other answer. In the third match I mull down to five. My seven had two Deeds but no lands. My six had double Surgical, but no lands. The five I kept: four lands and Thrun. Three fetches and Phyrexian Tower. I aggressively used my fetches to thin out the lands, on the second one I shuffled away a Deed that would have been key.
Death and Taxes - Both games I opened with Therapy naming Vial. Both games I saw Mom and some beats. In the first game I played Explorer, flashbacked Therapy, then played the Therapy I drew with another Explorer flashback. I had a GSZ in hand and he was in topdeck mode, I liked my chances. He tops Stoneforge grabs his main deck Sword of Feast and Famine, plays it out right away. I lose the race as I didn't draw into more threats than he did. Game two I again was a little too aggressive with Therapy. I took out all his immediate threats, but didn't follow it up with my own. He again tops Stoneforge then Mirran Crusader.
All of these losses are on my poor play. I could easily be looking at a better record had I learned before I made the mistakes. But that's why we play!
Cards of note:
Lingering Souls has been amazing so far. Early on it stalls out games. Later on the four power in the air has been key to closing out games. It also has the bonus of keeping Garruk alive, letting either version do their thing on the way to victory. That being said...
Garruk (either version) has rarely been a bad draw. The only time I can think of is when I had Relentless on the board and drew Primal Hunter. Relentless was already putting me on the path to victory so I didn't need his bigger version. Ultimate on Hunter gets your opponent to scoop and I think the miser copy is the right choice.
Armada Wurm closed out multiple games despite getting bizarre looks from onlookers. One game against an aggro Rock deck I discarded it to a Liliana. Quite a few people joked and laughed at the Wurm. Later on on used Stronghold to bring it back and it quickly won the game and the respect of the people who laughed at first glance. As far as 6-drop Green Sun's targets, this is by far the best I've tried.
All of my victories have been in true Rock fashion. I've disrupted their plans then went above and beyond what they could deal with. It's played well enough for me to continue playing it. I think there are more tweaks to be made and I'm open to suggestions.
Tao, I'm interested in reading more about your list. Especially Voice of Resurgence.
@Mono_green -- if I've said anything that should be heeded throughout this entire threat, it's that you will get laughed at while playing this deck even as you win, and that it'll take probably around 1 year to start consistently doing well with the deck. If you stick with it, though, there are few things as rewarding, in my opinion. Persevere!
This 403 bullshit is really bogging down my posting -- sorry I haven't been around very much. Hopefully it'll get fixed soon.
Your list has a big flaw and this is the most important thing and it is imperative that you change this: you have nothing that gets an engine going with GSZ! Currently you ramp into a big GSZ and hope the big creature gets there by itself or cross your fingers that you keep drawing threats. Add Vault of the Archangel and Primeval Titan. You can GSZ for Titan to search Stronghold and Vault (or Stronghold and Phyrexian Tower if you want to get Twin Towers going with Witness and/or Thragtusk) and you have Mana sinks for the rest of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono-Green
Aside from that I like your list a lot. Maybe a second Witness to make sure you have one in the late game. With 3 Decays and 3 Thoughtseize it will rarely be a bad draw anyway.
about Voice of Resurgence:
- It is amazing against fair decks without Swords to Plowshares like Tribal decks, BUG, Jund and RUG. Most of the time either the 2/2 body or the ability (or both) will have an impact on the game and the token can get huge.
- The "whenever an opponent plays a spell during your turn" ability is good. Forcing them to play Instants like Sorceries is nice but it also has some "real" use. Against decks with Brainstorm in general it improves your Cabal Therapies. Against Stifle decks (RUG, UWR Delver, Team America) you can use a fetchland or sacrifice an Explorer in your main phase and make them pay a high price for using Stifle.
- it is good against Combo because it puts a clock on them. It is especially good with Therapy in this matchup because it gives you something early to Flashback without having to ramp them and it stays on the battlefield to keep the pressure on.
- it is not very good against Maverick, D&T, Miracles and Blade. Not only do they have Swords to Plowshares for it but even if you get a token it doesn't matter all that much because of the way these matchups go.
the list in general:
- Like I said this is still an experiment and not a finished list yet. I am not sure if this whole token idea is worth it, maybe straight up control is just better.
- I want Wolfir, I want a 3rd Liege, I want a Sylvan Ranger.
- Probably 3 Voices are enough. Maindecking Pridemage and playing only 2 Decays could be an idea to find room.
- Engineered Plague over Deed in the SB.
- I am desperate to find something useful to bring in against Combo in white lists. Blue has FoW and red has Red Blasts which cover almost all Combo decks out there. White has Teeg but nothing else. Additional Discard (More than 4 Thoughtseize,4 Therapy) will get eaten by the White Leyline, Thalia is not what Nic Fit wants, White Leylines, Canonists and Mindbreak Traps are only good against 1/3 of the Combo decks.
They weren't laughing at Nic Fit, they were laughing at the Wurm. They're used to seeing Grave/Sun/Primeval Titan as the finisher. While it isn't played heavily in my area, Nic Fit is actually respected here. More than a few of my opponents mentioned how they have a hard time beating Nic Fit. Most people I've talked with consider it a decent deck and have even said nice things about it. The ones I've played against or shown my list haven't made any disparaging remarks about Nic Fit. Only once have I heard a bad remark and that was a guy saying "You play Legacy to play with dual lands, not basics."Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Not to say I can't improve, but I feel as if I'm already doing well with the deck. I was undefeated after three rounds this Sunday. I had a legit shot at making Top 8 prior to my stumble against Dredge and DNT. My play mistakes stem from being the aggro player for so long, and forgetting to play a solid control Rock. I feel the hardest part about the version I run is Therapy and Top choices. Outside of whiffing on Vial in my DNT match, I was consistently hitting on blind Therapies. I've been pretty quick using Top as well. I know what I specifically need to grab when I look, I know to keep an ability to shuffle just in case, if I draw my shuffle method I Top to see if the third card down is now what I need so I don't shuffle it away.
Again, I'm far from perfect. But I'm not a year away from consistently Top 8'ing with Nic Fit. Though I do benefit from a friendly Meta. I'd say about a quarter of the players here on some kind of Combo and the matchups haven't seemed as bad as some make it seem.
I'll be trying out Primetime with Vault and maybe another land or two. I'll likely take out the fourth Deed or one of the Decays for the Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
-I do think Wolfir is worth checking out as well. I wasn't overly impressed with Liege when I tried it out. I thought having a tutorable Crusade would be great, but it often ended up not mattering. Why the Ranger?
-Because you aren't going control with this list, I'd say three is right. Pridemage over a Decay isn't two bad an idea because you are trying to overrun your opponent and having a main deck answer you can tutor for against Jitte is good in this kind of list.
- Plague came up in discussion around here recently. I prefer Deed, but I can see that Plague has its uses. I do think running Deed is just a better option as it also hits Vials and equipment.
- I'm always at odds when looking for Teeg, shutting down my own GSZ is rough in a creature light list, but it is a good option. I haven't run into any Leylines around here, so I do run the Hymns and Liliana in the board to combat combo. I agree we need to find better options for the long haul though.
- Wolfir has been good. Only made a few Cockatrice games but it seems that turning a Souls token into a 5/5 flyer is a strong play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mono-Green
- You don't play enough creatures for Liege to be worth it. It is however really good with Voice and the Voice token (both get +2/+2 because they are both colors). Sylvan Ranger is just to have alternative mana to tutor for and it works with Voice token and Liege, but nothing overly important.
- I really like that you play the full four Deeds. I wouldn't cut a Deed or a Decay to make room for Titan because Titan has good synergy with playing lots of removal. Kill everything, then GSZ for Titan for Stronghold, that is a common way to win a game. Your losses were against Merfolk, Goblins, D&T and Dredge and playing less Deeds won't help there. I'd cut the Wurm or a Garruk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Slight change to wishboard/sideboard for this week
out: batterskull, pridemage
in: faerie macbre x2 (sp?)
I think bounty for the fair matchup might be enough (besides all the life gain main), pridemage still good but didn't do much.
faerie is awesome against renimates.
Maindeck changes are:
safekeeper -1, bayou -1, StP -1
vindicate +1, ooze +1, karakas +1
I'll keep you guys posted.
Would somebody be so kind as to point me in the direction of an updated scapewish list? The most recent ones I have seen on the thread are from June. Thank you in advance, I'm excited to transition from a BG Lilliana Natural Order list to one with an alternative 4cc Sorcery finisher.
-Jade
As far as I know the list from the OP is the most up to date. It is Arian's signature list and I only cut a Chameleon Colossus from there to make it 60 cards for the OP. The deck does what it does and therefore doesn't change that much.
so basically the white NicFit is turning into an aggro-control list... The feeling I get it's just a Junk list with Explorer/Therapy ramp into fatties.
Al least with the Archangel list we get some way of ending the way quickly and in 1 swing. Even if the combo doesnt get used every game that shouldnt be the reason to dismis this idea.
It's a fun list to play but in its current form it just lacks what I like to see in NicFit (and what is a possible addition) THe old Rector list had it, the Archangel list has it... The Voice of Resurgence list doesnt have it.
We could just go back to the old Junk decks and play with Wastelands and Knight of the Reliquary and forego the Explorer/Therapy.
I'm not sure how Tao's Voice list runs, but I assure you not all white non-Rector/non-Archangel lists play like the agro Rock lists with Knights, Bob, and Wasteland. My current build is more of a classic Rock control. I made the switch over from Bob, Goyf, SFM, and DRS. That deck was threat after threat until either my opponent didn't have an answer or I didn't draw a threat. My current one draws out the game, exhausts my opponents resources, and then puts me in a position where my threats are better than theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by XdeckX
It's all about play style. I regularly test against my old Rock list because I want to see if I'm wasting my time with Explorer/Therapy. So far I've been pleased with the changes.
Well obviously NicFit is grindy as hell no matter the build. I'm just used to the raw power and combo finish of ScapeWish (as that's the build I play the most)
The Archangel list Ariarhrod posted before (with Living Wish) was way more flexible which made me feel much more like a NicFit deck than the white list currently tested by Tao and Mono-Green.
Dont get me wrong. Perhaps the Archangel is a fluke after all but its just more like the NicFit deck I enjoy playing than the Voice deck Tao posted. I don't know what's better right now. Other than running it on Cockatrice there isn't really a way of testing it since there aren't any tournaments being run right now (due to summer holiday)
The feeling I got yesterday when running a variation of the Voice build was I hate having to play against any form of combo with this list. I even struggled against Goblins (although that can happen with just about any deck if the goblin player has a descent draw)
Got my ass handed to my by Lands (but that was because I only say 1 decay in the top 30 with having 3 decay and 3 deed after boarding)
Maybe I should take a little break from NicFit anyway :P I would either play Death+Taxes, 12post or UB Tez... just to take a breather.
Maybe I was a bit unclear. I don't think Scapewish or Thunian lists are bad and certainly they are not a fluke. They are just not my style, I like the value approach much more. But I think I was clear enough when I said that the whole Voice thing is still very experimental and that I am not sure if it is the right idea. I will stop talking about it for a bit to avoid confusion.
For what I would recommend running at a tournament if you haven't tested a list for yourself it would still be Ayotte's Punishing, Arian's Scapewish or qweerios'/my BUG.
I am not sure how good Thunian is and the Thunian lists don't seem "finished" yet either, and for Mono-Green's list, I think it is very good but it lacks the SB options that Punishing lists have. I think between Lingering Souls and Archangel of Thune we are currently just trying to figure out what works in White lists and what doesn't.
I wonder why you hate playing against Combo though. The difference in kill speed between just beating them down and finding the Thune-Feeder-Combo or getting to 7-8 lands is really not that big.
Don't get me wrong... I've been playing NicFit for god knows how long. The Valakut build is the one I feel most comfortable with and has provided me with the most and best results. Prehaps I let my current mindset influence the mood of my comments a bit too much.
In regards to my combo comment: I hate playing against combo anyway since thats just not my kind of tea... that doesnt mean I don't enjoy beating them. The problem with a beatdown list in my opinion is that we give them allot of time since we usually dont beat down fast enough. The discard helps a bit but that usually isnt enough to stop them if they have a clue. I know combo it one of NicFits worst matchups in any form.
I really want some sort of white list to do well. At one point I did try the Rector build but that didnt quite work for me (at least not nearly as well as the Valakut list)
I havent gotten around to testing your BUG list recently but that seems like allot of fun (especially the Therapy/Probe interaction)
And a little sidenote: I feel you deserve a big thumbs up for the work you're putting in the white lists at the moment. I'm not really the creator type so I can't really do something else than taking a list and modifying it a bit to suit my personal playstyle.
(note to self: be more positive and constructive in comments... or perhaps get to bed at a reasonable time a couple of nights in a row)
I've found that adding 4 Thoughtseize to the deck helped a lot with the combo matchups. I haven't seen many lists in this thread with that many Thoughtseizes, so pardon me if it seems obvious, but I don't plan on using fewer than four for some time and I suggest you all run it. It's very nice to go turn 1 Thoughtseize, turn 2 explorer + therapy. This way, your therapy isn't blind on the first resolution like it usually is.
This is where I'm at for the moment:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Varolz, Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
1 Diabolic Intent
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Phyrexian Tower
//SB
1 Viscera Seer
1 Archangel of Thune
1 Angel of Despair
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Spike Feeder
1 Dust Bowl / Volrath's Stronghold / Gavony Township
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nevermore
1 Batterskull
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
I'm undecided between the lands in the sideboard at the moment -- I want a land (because sometimes you need to Wish for a land drop, and it's awkward, but necessary), but I also want a bomb for when you've used your Archangel and there's no reason to get Angel of Despair. Dust Bowl is more questionably a bomb than the other two, but it can double as an answer for problematic lands (as addressed numerous other times ITT [in the thread -- more Mafia lingo for you people]). Volrath and Gavony are both self-explanatory.
I wouldn't mind having more Mindbreak Traps, but I want at least a miser because you can then Diabolic Intent for it. Speaking of which, I'm actually contemplating a second Intent. This deck actually has the creature density to get away with it.
I'm certainly more of a value person as well. I like synergistic lists, but I wouldn't go as far as a full combo.
I've been thinking about the combo match-up; we're obviously not the only deck with a bad match-up, so what do the other decks use?
I've also been toying with putting in Living Wish. (Thanks JBone and Arianrhod.) It might be the answer I've been looking for. In my list I'd remove the Garruks. A hard choice as they've proven to be great additions, but the only spots I can afford to cut. In the Wish board I can put in the combo hate. Grabbing a Teeg or Thalia and immediately playing it costs the same as Baby Garruk, so it's not too expensive comparatively. I also open myself up to Karakas for Show and Tell, Bog for Dredge, and Pridemage or Ooze for various decks.
What I'm most excited about playing Wish for is putting Sun Titan in the board. Sun Titan recurring Deed is a soft lock against fair decks. This inclusion makes up for taking out Garruk. One of the things I disliked about Titan main was the only way to tutor for was Fierce Empath. It was practically impossible to tutor and play him on the same turn. With Wish it's still not overly probable, but eight mana isn't so unlikely.
Is this a pipe dream or can this work?
Not sure what the status of blue fit is, but Caleb Durand had this to say
Quote:
>Neat idea, but the problem with it is that Birthing Pod needs to come down as soon as possible to start generating value, which means it works better with mana dorks (which also sacrifice to pod). If I was to start brewing Pod in Legacy I'd start with 4x Veteran Explorer 4x Baleful Strix 4x Birthing Pod 1x Deceiver Exarch and 1x Phantasmal Image. The top of the curve would end at Grave Titan and/or Consecrated Sphinx.
- Birthing Pod has to overcome a couple of difficulties:
> it has to be better than just playing Jace.
> it has to make up for the bad cards that you start to play like Phantasmal Image or Deceiver Exarch
> the many 1-offs make the deck inconsistent, especially in combination with Green Sun's Zenith
> paying life hurts and then there is Stifle which is just awful because "here I pay 2 life and destroy my own creature so I can ... no?".
- I like Ayotte's approach of playing additional Discard to Therapy maindeck.
- For the Thunian Wishboard you should consider Sadistic Hypnotist. Sacrifice any dork and him and the opponent's hand is gone. Can definitely be useful sometimes.
- instead of "1 Fierce Empath, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Grave Titan" you could go "1 Primeval Titan" and add Volrath's Stronghold and Vault of the Archangel to the maindeck. This would save a good amount of slots and currently you have an overkill on win conditions. I don't think you need all six 5- and 6-drops, 3 Living Wish, Diabolic Intent, 4 GSZ and Fierce Empath to close out a game.
I've heard secondhand that this wording has been confirmed. We can definitely find a place for this hydra in Nic Fit.
Polukranos, World-Eater CMC=4
Legendary Creature - Hydra
X Monstrosity XGG. (If this creature isn’t monstrous, put X +1/+1 counters on it and it becomes monstrous.)
When Polukranos, World Eater becomes monstrous, it deals X damage divided as you choose among any number of target creatures your opponents control. Each of those creatures deals damage equal to its power to Polukranos.
5/5
We can? Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus
Because it's removal and a beat stick. Probably less relevant in PFire builds, but I could see it being good in some GBW brews and GBU. /shrug. Conceptually it fits pretty well - gives an outlet for having 6+ lands out, it's a threat, it's removal. It isn't a strict upgrade to anything in the deck; seems more like a lateral adjustment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Edit: nvm the Hydra, the activation cost is XXG and not XGG
Hey guys, first time poster long time lurker.
I recently decided to build Nic Fit (Punishing variant) and I have liked what I have read so far in this particular thread, so good work guys (specially to HoneyT, since I'm mostly copy-pasting your top 8 deck).
I have a few questions, most of are from a punishing list point of view:
- I know that Verdant Catacomb is the best fetch for this deck. But why is Wooded Foothills the default choice to compliment Verdant? Getting Green doesn't seem that important anymore as most list doesn't use Dryad (so you really only have 4 VE as your T1 play). However getting an early (basic) swamp to cast Decay, therapy, thoughtseize (which now seems to be played as a 2-of?) or even casting hymns and lilianas seems more relevant to me. Maybe a split?
- Is Carpet of Flowers really that helpful? I believe you bring it against control decks and normally those are long grindy games where both player exchange resources, so bringing a card that only ramps doesn't seem like the best idea. Isn't choke better?
- Extirpate vs Surgical: I believe Extirpate is better in a deck where you can afford the black mana, specially if you're not running casters. But I have seen more lists using Surgical. What does the more experienced players think?
- I used to be a Maverick player so I understand how valuable is having access to Eternal Witness. But is 2 really necesary? Can the second one be considered a flexible spot? Or is it two a most?
- I also have seen that Volrath's Stronghold has fallen out of flavor. Is it because of the land restriction imposed by Grove of the burnwillows/Phyrexian tower/Kessig Wolf Run or the card is not doing enough to pull its weight?
- Planeswalkers; Are they a must in? Is it metagame dependant? Both seem to be good against control, Liliana is really good against combo and aggro decks should be a favorable match-up for Nic-Fit. So that means Liliana gets the thumbs up? I love me some Garruk, and I would love to hear any excuse to use him, but is he worth the slot?
- Broodmate Dragon doesn't seem to be used too much anymore. Is she an auto-inclue? Meta-game dependant? Primeval titan is just straight out better in every possible scenario?
Have been trying to look for answers myself but this thread is really huge, so sorry if it's been discussed before. However I think we can all take advantage from the discussion.
Regarding the Hydra. I wouldn't even touch it with a stick. This deck already have access to removal, so that part is not really that appealing. Also, bear in mind that it's double X. So if you want to kill a delver you have to pay 5. Since he is in the 4-spot he has to be better than the available options. Huntmaster is better against aggro; gains you life, gives two blockers, and if he survives one turn (same as Hydra, since you will have to wait a turn 95% of the time) he can act as removal as well. And thrun is a nightmare for control decks.
- about the new Hydra: You are right. guelahpapyrus had it as GGX here instead of GXX and I didn't double check on Mtgsalvation. That way it is not good of course. Though if it was like he said it would have been an auto-include.
- The land change sounds reasonable, especially if you run a couple Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek. I actually PM'ed Ayotte earlier today about the low amount of early black mana.
- Against UWx Control decks you exchange 3 Explorers with 3 Carpets. That way you stop ramping them without screwing with your mana. Carpet is also absurdly good against blue Aggro decks that use Wasteland/Stifle (RUG, TA) and Merfolk.
- the more experienced players are in disagreement with each other about Extirpate and Surgical. Surgical is better against Combo and Dredge because of the speed while Extirpate is better against Countermagic, Brainstorm and Snapcaster (and a few other Instant recycling effects). Play what you prefer or split.
- You can go down to 1 Witness. The List in the OP currently also has only 1, too. If you want to play with Stronghold you should consider a second Witness.
- Supporting 4 Groves, Tower, Wolf Run and Stronghold is hard, even with 23 lands. I personally like Stronghold and have not been impressed by Wolf Run but I asked multiple times and everyone who took the deck to tournaments recently said that Wolf Run was amazing for them.
- PWs and Broodmate Dragon are no must. Just make sure to have a decent curve, a late game plan and that your cards work together. My current personal setup is 3 Liliana main, 2 Garruk in the side and no Broodmate. I find it very difficult to tell what setup is right or wrong.
Pretty much what Tao said except a few things:
Carpet is not the only tech you can use as additional or replacement ramp for Explorer, Deathrite Shaman is as good if not better. Against tempo with fliers and control with lots of basics, Deathrite has more value over the course of the game than Carpet. Let's not forget that it is also infinitely more versatile as a whole. I don't like carpet because it makes you assume a role that you don't necessarily have to in order to win, and its application is very narrow. I say that after having retested the card following my argument with Tao.
Surgical is strictly superior to Extirpate in most cases. It's all about mana cost and versatility. Split second is nice but isn't what you play the card for. Extraction hate cards are good SB cards because they double up in purpose with discard spells in specific matchups. Being able to Thoughtseize/Therapy and Surgical on the same turn or simply being able to Surgical at any time without having to leave a black mana open is extremely important when you are pressed for time and can only get so much disruption in before your opponent blows you out. Extirpate is only really good when it is the only piece of disruption that you need to foil your opponent's plans, and when the Split Second clause is essential. Also, the cards that are best dealt with by Extirpate tend to be cards that you can safely ignore like PFire and LftL for instance.
Liliana is probably the best Planeswalker for Nic Fit to date. However, getting some counters on her can be detrimental without some form of recursive card advantage (PFire and LftL again).