Any thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty?
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Any thoughts on Threads of Disloyalty?
3 in the SB, always. Its become ever better with the current Dreadnought obsession.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masque
I'm not a huge fan of Threads of Disloyalty. Shackles is better; if you are scared of Dreadnought, Powder Keg for 1 or Engineered Explosives for 1 can take care of that (note on the EE: I do not run fetches; I used to have one in the sideboard as an extra Mongoose/Token killer in addition to the 4 Powder Keg).
Plus, Teferi can wreck Dreadnought :smile:
Why would anyone bother to play the standard control everything mono blue deck in legacy? Its obvious that its near impossible and unnecessary to do that. All you want to do is disrupt your opponent enough to do something broken like dropping darksteel colossus into play. Here is what I would run:
4 FOW
4 counterspell
4 vedalken shackles
4 polymorph/ proteus staff
4 ancestral vision
4 standstill
4 counterbalance
4 sensei's divining top
1 darksteel colossus
4 chrome mox
4 mishra's factory
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
11 islands
You have just enough countermagic to keep someone off balance long enough to land a shackles, counterbalance or colossus. Mox allows turn 1 standstill, turn 2 shackles and a quicker polymorph into colossus. Contrary to popular belief mono blue does care about speed because decks like goblins can smash you a new one if you wait more than a few turns to establish board position. The added amount of cheap draw allows you to use mox and force without worrying about card disadvantage and of course top+counterbalance is there to protect colossus and lock the board down after a shackles. The land count might be a bit high or in need of adjustment but I'm always sure to pack enough lands in a deck with moxen because if you have to use a mox for mana because you missed a land drop then it just makes more sense to add land. If you manage to cut a few things trinket mage would be a good addition. Try it out
Srsly, what?
1) Look at your curve
0cc: 31
1cc: 4
2cc: 12
3cc: 4/8
4cc: 4/0
5cc: 4
11cc: 1
What the hell do you want to counter with Balance? Lotus Petals?
2) How is a win condition that has to be protected from Swords to Plowshares, needs an active Vedalken Shackles and needs another card to be played (that also SUCKS without active Shackles) better than Morphling or anything else?
3) What do you do if you draw Darksteel Colossus?
4) How does this deck not lose to Goblins? Because it can swing with a 11/11 on turn 5 if it has a god draw of turn 2 Shackles, turn 3 activate, turn 4 Polymorph? Don't think so.
I don't need to try it out to see that it doesn't work.
Wow, the very definition of closed minded. If you will remember correctly type 2 used to play a very controllive version of mono blue with 15-18 counters but the real strength of the deck was not a shit load of counterspells, it was the raw power of shackles that made it good. This lesson is even more true in legacy where no tier 1 deck runs much counter magic because trying to control every aspect of the game with counters is unrealistic. The original counter heavy deck evolved into the staff/colossus deck because people saw that doing something busted was much better than trying to swing with a less than stellar creature on turn 30. The list I posted was rough I will admit but the concept is there and should be refined further for optimal results. I should also point out that after you polymorph/staff if you have a colossus in your hand you can stack your deck however you like meaning you could drop a charbelcher in there and win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
I also thought it was obvious that you get top into play before playing counterbalance thereby ensuring a chalice for 0,1 or possibly 2. I also suggested trinket mages for a toolbox or as an easy way to get top.
As for your comment on goblins, everyone knows mono blue will have a tough time against goblins but the best way to make it better is with a quick active shackles and faster clock like this one has.
How is staff/colossus better than morphling? I really hope your joking. The only thing morphling has that colossus does not is a set of mana intensive abilities that means it can't be plowed. That problem could be easily solved by chalice and/or counterbalance which is also good all around I hear. Aside from that colossus kills quicker and is really only vulnerable to 1 type of removal whereas morphling can be killed with mass removal and possibly targeted removal if you are low on mana. The point is not even colossus because with this build you could put almost ANY creature into play that you want for 3U. Why would you say morphling is better than that?
[Snip]
Learn to make whatever point you want to make without attacking other members. Warned for flaming. - Nihil Credo
Okay, what the hell are you doing? You're running 8 fetchlands without Brainstorms in a monocolored deck, you're running Counterbalance in the worst deck to play it in since 43 lands, 4 SDT, Chrome Mox in a control deck (card disadvantage = bad for control, for reasons that should already be known), you neglect to run the card that essentially makes the deck function (Back to Basics), playing Stanstill in a deck without anything resembling board control, 4 Shackles (this just looks incredibly wrong, 3 should be sufficent), and you intend to rely on a single copy of a single win condition to win the game in a format rife with Swords to Plowshares. Try it? Let me ask you a question: have you?
Proteus Staff is probably too slow but still probably worth trying because Collassus is a beast.
But I think you can use Proteus Staff far better than you currently are.
Being reliant on Shackles to power Staff is a bad approach. It eats up 5 mana and counts on your opponent playing an aggro deck.
Here are better targets for Proteus Staff...
4 Mishra's Factory - You're already playing this, good
3 Chimeric Idol - It's a very solid early blocker and attacker as well, safe from sorcery speed removal
3 Fairie Conclave/Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Standstill - By playing so many manlands, the deck suddenly can support Standstill which is fantastic. If you opponents take a while to break Standstill, just ramp up your land drops. The more landdrops out there, the better MUC fares.
Other changes your deck desperately needs to make...
4 Chalice of the Void - StP is the ONLY way for Collassus to be killed. Unfortunately, it's also the most popular removal spell there is. Chalice is not only 100% supported by MUC (unlike CB), but it's a great card all its own shutting down opposing Brainstorms and what not.
2 Darksteel Collassus - With chalice, you can't Brainstorm away and Darksteel Collassus you draw. This leaves two options... up your artifact count (Keg, Staff, Shackles, Chalice, Chrome Mox) to support Thirst for Knowledge, or opt to play 2 Darkstell Collassus. Either is a fine choice.
3 Thirst for Knowledge - See above.
4 Chrome Mox - See above.
2 Polymorph - It pitches to both Chrome Mox and FoW. It also gets our Dreadnought for less mana than Staff.
I really hope you're kidding, Black, because the power of MUC in Standard wasn't Shackles, it was Meloku and Stalking Stones. Shackles was used almost exclusively as a stall tactic alongside the counter spells because the threats of the format would be able to seal games quickly if not dealt with. Most of the time if they couldn't shackle it, they'd have to bounce it.
And no, that did not evolve into Staff/Colossus. That deck was based on someone deciding that playing with Blinkmoth Nexus and activating it into a creature would mill into the one Darksteel Colossus. That was a mono blue combo deck with a lot of control elements to keep both Staff and DSC alive long enough to swing for two turns. Both decks played out incredibly different. There was no evolution from one to the other, they both happened to have a lot of counter magic to keep their sole threats alive.
And I agree with Brehn, there's a number of problems you have with that build. Here's some constructive criticism that I see (and by no means is it a personal attack, as I personally loved the combo):
1) You are playing 8 fetchlands and Ancestral Visions instead of Brainstorm. Brainstorm comes online turn 1, allows you to put back DSC if you draw into him accidentally, and allows you to respond to threats, as you've got very little answers to your opponent using StP, bounce, or just about anything in the 1cc range that you can't protect with Counterbalance. This goes to:
2) You are playing Counterbalance and not even coming close to the average curve that it's used for. You want primarily 1 and 2 covered, with a splash of 3 (Krosan Grip), otherwise you are opening yourself up to basically losing to opposing Counterbalance decks just trying to set up. Standstill won't cut it here, as it's used to draw into answers, which you technically only have 8 of, or threats, which you have 1. This leads to:
3) Why play Standstill in a deck with a combined threat/answer count of 12 (And I'm using this loosely, as Vedalken Shackes is hardly an answer to an opposing Goyf if you are playing this against Thresh or Aggro Loam, for instance). You will rarely draw into FoW or Counterspell, which is something you'd need once Standstill cracked if DSC actually hit the table. Speaking of Shackles, activated abilities seem to be how you'd win the game which leads into:
4) You have literally NO board-based outs to Pithing Needle. They can hit your Factory turn 1, and you scoop (or watch as they pummel you with creatures that get bigger much faster than Shackles can hit). You can either have opening hand FoW every game, or be forced to go to game 2 against a large number of decks starting to pack it in the main. This again comes back to a lack of answers, which comes back to:
5) The deck has terrible recovery speed if DSC is removed from play. Sure, it will shuffle back in, but now you have no way of finding your next Factory. You don't have Crucible for recursion, you don't have any draw (Ancestral, contrary to popular belief, is TERRIBLE when you NEED cards), and you don't have any dig/tutor effects. This comes back to:
6) Lack of threats. When testing the "standard" list of board control MUC, I played a number of pre-board games against both Ichorid and Goblins. If neither get an insane first or second turn, Propaganda will slow them down enough for you to dig into another, or Shackles. Shackles alone cannot stop a swarm army, nor can it stop a big hitter (Goyf, Grave-Troll, etc). You will get overrun, and it doesn't have to happen fast, as Colossus is still a 2 turn clock at best once he hits play.
So really, when you say there's no point in playing board control MUC, please realize it's the ONLY style of MUC that will win in this format. StifleNought uses Propaganda and EE, MUC uses Propaganda, B2B, Shackles, etc.....you NEED to protect yourself from aggro decks, and a lot of aggro control decks play with creatures Shackles just can't handle on it's own. The deck also needs dedicated draw, as Top is just modifying topdeck card quality, and Ancestral does nothing for 4 turns (which is often too late).
Hopefully that gives you a little less of a "close minded" reason as to why your deck in it's current build won't stand up to as much as you think.
Why would you want to play 7 manlands for Standstill? You're overlooking that the deck doesn't have the ability to clear the board, and, inasmuch, is a poor fit for Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuckerPunch
Also, I'm curious why people are actually advocating the mana hungry and deck revealing Colossus tech, when it's much easier to play StifleNought anyway. You have tutors, the same counterspells, better use of Counterbalance, board control options, and tutors that turn into beatsticks.
I would suggest if you want to do the DSC/Staff combo to open a new thread, and get ideas flowing in there. Otherwise, if you just don't like the board control versions of MUC, go check out Dreadstill or StifleNought for a "quick kill" combo deck.
Based on the last suggestion, I'm yearning for the Sower deck to come back to discussion just so I can have something not horribly atrocious that takes my mind off what I just read...
I'm surprised no one made the most obvious comment of all. Only 11 Islands are in the deck, so a turn two Shackles does nothing except steal...Lackey? A 1/2 Tarmogoyf? Yeah. Good choices. You can't even get someone's Mishra's Factory.
Also, it was said, but not emphasized nearly enough: only 4 cards with converted mana cost of 1. If you intend to succeed in setting up Counterbalance/Top efficiently, you seriously need to rethink that idea. Sure Top can flip, but then your opponent is open to casting anything out of the 1 casting cost range. Plus, like it was said, your curve is all over the place to try Counterbalance shenanigans.
And for the most awesome comment of all:
I have seen a Morphling get Swords to Plowshares'd ONCE and it was because Morphling was cast in desperation and the opponent had 3 StPs in hand. Morphling gets killed by mass removal, but that is why you have counterspells.Quote:
Originally Posted by blacklotus3636
And you say Morphling is mana-intensive. Hard-casting Colossus costs 11. Proteus Staff costs 3 to activate + Mishra's Factory = 4 mana (1 of which is now gone) and Polymorph costs 4 + Mishra's Factory = 5 mana (1 of which is now gone). This will probably leave you tapped out leaving Colossus to get Swords faster than Dark Confidant.
Morphling wins games; if you want your Colossus shenanigans, go play with Gamekeeper.
I hate playing against Landstill - it's my number 1 arch nemesis - and MUC decks that will get destroyed by Landstill are not favored by me at all.
I will succinctly explain why your build is poor, Black. This is essentially because you are creating a MUC build that isn't running Back to Basics. Just to impress this fact upon everyone here, the only reason this deck is even remotely viable is because of Back To Basics. Period. If that card was never printed, there would be almost no incentive not to play more than one color for stuff like Swords, or Deed, or whatever else you want to play.
Also, please, please, please read the thread and the numerous times it has been explained why Counterbalance is garbage in this deck. To summarize, briefly, it sucks in MUC because it is a control deck. Counterbalance is not a hard lock, is mana-intensive, and requires a curve that this deck simply doesn't support. MUC is also completely incapable of actually making the tempo-advantage created by Counter-Top actually matter, because by the time you actually win, it is very likely your opponent will have found a way around it.
At any rate, my advice is simply to actually read the discussion that's gone on in this thread. Just about every suggestion you've made has been tried before, and been demonstrated to be either notably sub-optimal, or just plain poor.
Could Relic of Progenitus be the MD option we've been waiting for to fill those 3 open slots in the permanent-based MUC? It can help in problematic MUs (loam, ichorid) and can shrink goyfs if need be, at worst cyling for 1+1. If not MD, this is surely better than crypt in the SB.
Nope, doesn't belong in the main. If you have to maindeck this card, then you are playing the wrong deck for your metagame.
As a sideboard choice, I have to admit, I kinda' like it. I'm not convinced it is better than Tormod's, but it deserves testing.
peace,
4eak
I don't know; possibly it could go main deck. It does strengthen the Ichorid matchup, but that alone isn't a reason to run it; however, the fact it cantrips means it doesn't hurt anything. And unlike Crypt, it actually does something against Tarmogoyf too. This card looks to be much better than Crypt or the ever so slow Phyrexian Furnace (which I have seen play because of the whole cantrip thing). I really like this, but I probably won't have it main deck. Saying that, it seems like a definite sideboard to me.
I realize you aren't running it in the main (good call), but I want to emphasize the fact that there is a cost to running this in the main. The opportunity cost of not running a flat out better spell is very important. You lose functionality by taking away any of the more relevant cards to MUC. A 2-mana cantrip that can do neat graveyard tricks is way overpriced--you have better things to do with 2 mana and 1 out of 60 cards.Quote:
however, the fact it cantrips means it doesn't hurt anything.
I'm definitely all for cantrips, but this is just too expensive and it isn't an instant.
peace,
4eak
I like it in the Sideboard, but I haven't been having too much trouble with the maindeck playing against Ichorid. Propaganda and Keg are absolute tech here, so keeping an opening hand with 3 lands + either is basically an auto keep regardless of the other 3 cards. I've been doing almost the same against Goblins, though I do really like to see a Powder Keg or FoW in addition, just because Lackey or Vial are such annoyances in general, as I've found a lot of the time SGC just rapes me if I am sitting behind a Propaganda wall.
I've been testing a very close build to Kadaj's, running 2 Morphling and Keiga, Tide Star as my kills. Keiga has been very good to me against Thresh and Landstill variants, being able to take an opposing goyf as long as I can keep it from getting StP'd. And even if it does, Morphling almost always won't, and can just chump Goyf all day. A solid 5/5 flying body also makes for a good threat in general, allowing Morphling to be a giant wall if need be, and the 6 mana has never been an issue, since I almost always draw it late game.
So what would people suggest for a sideboard with a pretty diverse field? Last tournament had ITF variants, Ichorid, Goblins, Burn, Landstill, Thresh, Aggro Loam, Rock variants, etc.
I was considering:
4 Chill
4 REB
4 Declaration of Nought (still haven't done any testing with it)
3 Tormod's Crypt
I'm going to try declaration of naught as well... I think it'll do fine against loam and other decks relying on an engine.
About Relic of Progenitus; I'm going to test that card as well. I'm not sure as how it will do against Ichorid, 'cause I think it might be te slow. On the other hand, against thresh, loam and other slower decks abusing the GY, I think it's going to be a killer card. I also like the cantrip part :D
Declaration of Naught sure seems nice against life from the loam... Isn't it a bit narrow, though? Do you ever miss that extra shackles and Jace against control-ish decks?
Also, crypt is pretty bad in this deck against ichorid. Sure, it's still crypt so it will buy you time (maybe enough to drop a propaganda and seal the game), but since you have absolutely no clock to back it up (except for the threat of droping a propaganda, but it can be delt with), ichorid will play slowly and force you to use it as soon as possible. Relic is overall better, and is still of comparable strength to crypt in this MU imho since it can also deal with this situation. Besides, relic can remove all graveyards on turn 2, which is usually enough against ichorid g2 and 3 when they are a bit slower.
I agree it's probably not a great MD option though, cantrips are generally terrible in MUC that is already a slow deck by nature. It's replacing crypt in my SB as a 4-off, however. No question about it.