[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by mackaber

This statement makes me wonder if you actually read my post.
Not dealing with that vial will let the goblin player jerk of with an endless stream of gobs disabling your entire strategy while you waste time destroying their lands.
Also constructively dealing with other peoples arguments does not entail merely repeating your own argument but dealing with their's. My point stands that in the cases where the opposing dec offers few angles of attack to your disruption strategy or can deal effiviently with your threats (StP) TA is merely a sitting duck. You can repeat a million times what the decs supposed to do but in some cases this is easier than in others and in those other situations other strategies should be at least considered.

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Mackaber, it's D-E-C-K. Have you played the Goblins v. Team America matchup? I think you have and it sounds like you're losing your shirt in that matchup. Instead of arguing about whether or not Team America needs an answer for AEther Vial, maybe you should ask specific questions about that matchup from the more experienced players. I'm really surprised you're losing that badly to Goblins because Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker can kill the Goblin player before they ramp up the Vial to 4 or 5. Are you somehow suggesting that not dealing with Vial is going to create tempo for Goblins? Are you also suggesting that Goblins doesn't need lands in play, they only need a Vial to beat you? And when did StP become a threat in any deck, much less Team America?

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Originally Posted by Deep6er

The list that Dan and I came up with placed fourth in a 127 person tournament. As far as crucibles go, I'd say that's a reasonable indicator.

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Theoretically, if Klaus were to win another couple of events with that exact list and sideboard, that would be a compelling point in his favor.

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I guess winning a 113-person event just doesn't compare to making the semifinals of a 127-person event? Those 14 extra players were probably really good, or something.

This seems a little inconsistent to me.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

I guess winning a 113-person event just doesn't compare to making the semifinals of a 127-person event? Those 14 extra players were probably really good, or something.

This seems a little inconsistent to me.

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That's because you're missing two things.

1) I have the results of my own testing data here. We all know that the list is good, but individual card choices are the discussion here, not the deck's core. Therefore, Klaus' admittedly last second inclusion (which are purported to later be mistakes) are detractions from his list as it stands. My argument is that the deck got there through the strength of it's core cards, and his additions were weaker than they could have been.

2) You're also missing the fact that because it's the changes that we're discussing, and because he admitted that they were last second inclusions/mistakes, then it's necessary for him to prove that his list is better. Obviously, because they were accidental inclusions means that he did not have the opportunity to test them. I've Top 8'd with Mountain Goat in my deck (Mono Blue Control if you're curious). That doesn't mean that Mountain Goat is a stellar addition to that deck as a whole. Testing is the important factor here. I only used the reference to Dan's win to prove that the list was a good starting point that helped prove the core of the deck. The additions should be discussed because most of us agree on the core. It's the additions where we're encountering friction.

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Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely

I guess winning a 113-person event just doesn't compare to making the semifinals of a 127-person event? Those 14 extra players were probably really good, or something.

This seems a little inconsistent to me.

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Yeah, well, Biff, you're forgetting one thing...WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?! *incoming frisby-like brass match tray with pointy leaves all over it*

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Originally Posted by Deep6er

It's the additions where we're encountering friction.

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Additions? Like what, lands? There isn't any extra space to shuffle or cut, in the MD at least.

Additions to the deck and sideboard. He has a lot of notions that I consider flawed, and we're discussing them. Differences is a possible term, as is substitutions. Changes works too. Would you like a thesaurus?

Deep6er: Incidently I will not be able to win any 100 man tournies any time in the near future to provide you the propper proof that deed or EE might actually belong in the SB. If I do win tourneys they'd be small local tournies and I could win those with a dec of Cavius design if need be, so I would not be proving too much there. So I'll have to provide logical arguments and hope others will follow my logic.
I'm still of the conviction that you are overestimating your Goblin Matchup (something many people have been doing for quite some time) and I have tested the matchup thouroughly and I am aware of pretty much all the tricks of the trade, such as destroying black mana before dropping dudes, stifling vial activations, and especially snufing warchiefs and seizing at critical junctures of the game. I wholeheartedly agree with your asssesment that if you keep the Goblin player of all their mana a vial alone will not win them the game. I do contest however that this is an unlikely scenario. Also I do not believe you will ever win with a Goyf or Stalker before vial has trickeled to 4 unless you expend multiple stifles on achieving that. Actually it has happend to me that the Goblin player thanks to his vial has been able to deny me of my mana due to wastelands and ports.
As it stands all I was ever suggesting is replacing some copies of Krosan Grip (a 3 mana instant) and other sideboard tools with Pernicous Deed (3 mana plus X Enchantment) or EE (2 mana plus X Artifact). While I am aware that these spells counteract the core idea behind the dec Krosan Grip doesn't exactly perpetuate it either and thus making such changes would actually heighten the efficeny of your SB slots because they increase the flexibility of your SB. The main point of contention here being that I am suggesting that there are matchups where the tempo plan might falter and this necesitates a more rockish approach which the dec is quite capable of, whereas you are of the conviction this is never the case thus bastardizing the dec will decrease it's efficiency.
Also I have not seen you refute the argument that Vial generates tempo and that destroying Vial for 3 mana nets you a relative tempo gain in terms of saved mana.

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Originally Posted by mackaber

Also I have not seen you refute the argument that Vial generates tempo and that destroying Vial for 3 mana nets you a relative tempo gain in terms of saved mana.

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No, I'm pretty sure Deep6er addressed this, but what I think you're trying to do is try to tell us that Vial is somehow going to generate infinite tempo if you leave it on the table for X turns. You sound like the people who claim that playing Oxidize on a Jayemdae Tome is card advantage because you stop all future activations of the card. I'm thinking you don't really care about the Goblins matchup, have drawn your own conclusions, and feel that some sort of maindeck AEther Vial removal is that important in Team America. If that's the case, it's obvious you're doing it wrong. Since you've drawn your own conclusions about the matchup and aren't asking for one single bit of advice, I think you're going to continue to lose to Goblins. EE and Deed aren't going to correct whatever mistakes you're making.

I don't know why we are still discussing bringing in deed or ee against goblins. That is a terrible plan. With that aside, what other matchups would you want those cards against? Ichorid?

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Originally Posted by mackaber

I am aware of pretty much all the tricks of the trade, such as destroying black mana before dropping dudes, stifling vial activations, and especially snufing warchiefs and seizing at critical junctures of the game.

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Why would you ever stifle a vial activation, unless you were going to win the very next turn and wanted to preemptively eliminate a blocker? Stifle is ridiculous against goblins because it can "counter" matron, ringleader, and sgc even if they have a ramped up vial on the table, in addition to being mana denial and wasteland protection. This, along with the fact that you're suggesting EE or deed to "fix" that matchup, makes me question your experience. We've tested against that deck many times, and I've played against it in tournaments with success; I'm still pretty sure you're ahead. Goblins just isn't the powerhouse it once was thanks to the efficiency of threats like tarmogoyf and tombstalker, and cards like thoughtseize. It's just so slow and you're strategy is great against them.

@Deep6er/Nitewolf9:

What are TA's worst MUs (other than DS) from your experience?
How do you approach those MUs and what did your testing teach you about it?

Klaus

These are a few of the dicier matchups:

Ichorid
Geddon Stax (not as bad as you would think though)
Zoo/Sligh (close but you're behind)

For Ichorid, boarding out snuff outs for crypts, and sinkholes + 1 daze for edicts and 2 grips for needle seems to be the plan of choice. Keeping hands with cantrips seems solid as the deck finds tormod's crypt well and they slow down post board. You pretty much stop them cold or they get going and win.

Geddon stax has a lot that is bad for you (chalice, 3 sphere, crucible) but you can stop them because they are inconsistent and you run lots of disruption. Post board grips come in for 2 stifles and a snuff out (snuff out is good for dealing with magus and angel if they run it, magus being the more important target). You need to keep the blue count up for force so a couple of stifles need to stay in. They are also randomly good at stopping wasteland or a flagstones activation if they are low on white.

Against Zoo or Sligh you have to leave in a couple of snuff outs, and with the new board of 2 reanimante you bring those in along with edicts, and blasts if you are facing sligh. Try to stick to 2 lands, 3 max against sligh to avoid massive damage from PoP. Zoo just runs a lot of creatures and removal, and it can get hard to finally go aggro on them, but their manabase is shaky. Dark confidant is a problem if they run him, so try to stop that guy. Sligh only has one good creature in tarmogoyf, so stop that guy and play more of your own and you'll win. Reanimate is good here. Tombstalker is also nuts in both matchups.

CB Threshold is very close depending on their build, but I do generally feel ahead post board. Overall it's very close to 50/50 for Ugw. Ugr is a bit worse if they run blood moon, a bit better if they don't. 4c+ is better for you. Generally you want to bring in grips and edicts for sinkholes and stifles, but against the 4 or 5 color builds sinkholes probably stay in (cutting a few snuff outs).

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Originally Posted by Deep6er

Theoretically, if Klaus were to win another couple of events with that exact list and sideboard, that would be a compelling point in his favor.

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On the subject of tournament results (I'm simply curious): at what events did the original TA (i.e. first post of this thread) list top8 ?

@Deep6er:

I'm not attacking you or your card choices by testing other options for the deck.

I have made no claims of optimality concerning these card choices (doing otherwise would be pretentious and very hard to verify - depending on how you define optimality).

The only claim I made is that these choices have worked in my testing/tournament play so far.

If they ever fail me, for reasons you mentioned or other reasons, be sure I'll revert to the original list.

I'd be interested and curious to hear about your tests versus DS and Moon Thresh.

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Originally Posted by aTn

On the subject of tournament results (I'm simply curious): at what events did the original TA (i.e. first post of this thread) list top8 ?

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Top 4 of the 127-person The Source 5-year Anniversary tournament.

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Originally Posted by Sims

Top 4 of the 127-person The Source 5-year Anniversary tournament.

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Thanks, but that's where I found out about the deck (i.e. I was aware of that result).

I was asking about other tournament results (w/ original list).

@ATN: Well, as soon as there is another tournament for us to play it in, then we'll be sure to let you know. As it is, we have quite a bit of testing data, and that's definitely important too. Remember, the Source tournament was only a month ago. You have to give us time to play it in more events.

I understand that you're not attacking me, nor have I claimed that you have. If I come off as angry, it's misinterpreted. I'm not. I'm vehement at times, but only in the hopes that I can prove my point clearly and eloquently. If I were angry, the post would have been significantly different. I'd show you the others, but they've all been deleted/modified, so all I can tell you is that if I'm angry, you'll know it.

Our testing against Dragon Stompy and Moon Threshold is limited at best. Both of those decks aren't meta game concerns, and we felt it was more important to get around to the decks that are seeing more play than either of those. We'll probably get around to it in the future, but since neither of those decks is tearing up the tournament scene, it's not high on the list. I'll be sure to let you know how they go, but we don't have the same kind of extensive data on those as we do on something like Goblins or Threshold.

@Klaus: The dicey match ups are basically what Dan said. However, I would also add that I don't feel particularly confident about the Affinity match up. It's not a huge deal, but it's there nonetheless. Especially with the new additions of Master of Etherium and Ethersworn Canonist. Fortunately, it's not like that deck is tearing up the Top 8's either, so whatever. I'm not particularly happy facing any deck that doesn't aim to "play fair". If a deck is capable of playing as many spells in the early turns as Team America (with the exception of combo decks), then I don't like it. Team America is more oriented on defeating the decks that "play fair" by generating unfair amounts of tempo. Fortunately, most decks in Legacy "play fair" so the match ups that I worry about are pretty rare.

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You have to give us time to play it in more events.

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No problem, I totally understand.

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I understand that you're not attacking me, nor have I claimed that you have.

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I understand, no harm done, I just wanted to specify that I'm still in experimental mode with TA.

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Our testing against Dragon Stompy and Moon Threshold is limited at best. Both of those decks aren't meta game concerns

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I understand; in my meta these decks tend to be rather present, so that's why I'm testing stuff like adding 1-2 basic lands at the expense of losing -or slowing down- color availability in other match-ups.

If I think I have any relevant things to say about DS or Moon Thresh in the future, I might post again in this thread; but right now I think I'll go back to testing and reading your (and others') tournament-testing results.

P.S.: Thanks for creating ITF, I just picked it up this week and went to a 36 player tournament with little or no testing done and liked the deck A LOT !

Here are my current thoughts about the DS match-up (playing the original TA list, see post 1 of this thread). All this is probably very obvious (and I find my post pretty idiotic while reading it for the second time). The only point I make is that the situations I describe come up very often in testing-tournament play (in my experience anyhow).

Pre-board:

I tend to keep my counters for Magus of the/Blood Moon, since the resolution of either one early-game usually ends the game in DS’ favour.

These two cards are usually my main Thoughtseize targets (with a few exceptions depending on the game state).

The fact that the deck doesn’t pack a single swamp can’t make you fetch it pre-emptively (in order to resolve a "free" Snuff Out after a resolved Magus). Of course, putting 3B in your pool in response to them casting Magus is great, but a rare feat (of brilliance or stupidity, depending on the outcome of you keeping 3B open).

DS players that are used to playing the TA match-up might want to bait your counters (CotV is usually scary and a good way for them to bait you) in order to eventually resolve a Moon effect, falling into that plan doesn’t seem like a good idea.

I’ve actually won a lot of game 1s for this match-up by simply letting them resolve CotV (@1,2), countering Moon effects, and resolving 1-2 Stalkers.

If the DS player goes more for a “fast-fatty” gameplan, either because his hand dictates that or because he’s not used to playing the TA match-up, then I consider myself lucky --- and usually win since 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Snuff Out (+ Countermagic) are good creature management tools. If you’re fortunate to be able to resolve a turn 1 (or 2) Thoughtseize, things will probably be set in your mind as to which route the DS player will take.

Post-board: -4 Stifle, -4 Something Else (I usually take out the Sinkholes on the draw, but I’m still testing different scenarios for these 4 slots), -3 Snuff Out, +4 Grip, +4 BEB, + 3 Edict.

To me, Edict is more efficient against Magus – assuming it’s their only creature - putting 1B in your manapool in response to them playing Magus, letting Magus resolve and then casting Edict is pretty common early-game. If they have more than one creature on the board, then Edict is crap to get rid of Magus. But then again, Snuff Out would also be crap to get rid of Magus (unless you have 3B to spare in response to them casting Magus – which doesn’t happen very often).

Again, packing no basic lands means you need to be wary of Blood Moon (the deck probably packs 4 copies now if the DS player knows how to SB) and Magus.

CotV@1 is a clear play for them if they want to shut down a big part of your SB plan, it’s really up to you to check the game state (your hand in particular) to see if resolving BEBs is a must for you to win or not.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Why would you ever stifle a vial activation, unless you were going to win the very next turn and wanted to preemptively eliminate a blocker? Stifle is ridiculous against goblins because it can "counter" matron, ringleader, and sgc even if they have a ramped up vial on the table, in addition to being mana denial and wasteland protection. This, along with the fact that you're suggesting EE or deed to "fix" that matchup, makes me question your experience. We've tested against that deck many times, and I've played against it in tournaments with success; I'm still pretty sure you're ahead. Goblins just isn't the powerhouse it once was thanks to the efficiency of threats like tarmogoyf and tombstalker, and cards like thoughtseize. It's just so slow and you're strategy is great against them.

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Oops. Misformulated that. I meant countering the addition off counters during upkeep. It's actually often just as good as killing a land you should try it. And just to make this clear I was never advocating playing EE maindec. Altough if I were to run 2 I would board them versus gobs yes. Also I did support the claim that the MU is okay I just have lost to first turn vial more often than I have won.

Something else I've noticed is that I hate going second with this dec against anything. Do either Klaus or Nitewolf have any Data on the number dierolls you won during those big events?

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It's actually often just as good as killing a land

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Uh. The only situation I can think of where that might even be accurate is getting it moving from two to three and I'm pretty sure you'd want to be doing something else with your mana that turn given how awkward it would be if you made them leave it on two and they went and Matroned up their second Piledriver or something.

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Originally Posted by frogboy

Uh. The only situation I can think of where that might even be accurate is getting it moving from two to three and I'm pretty sure you'd want to be doing something else with your mana that turn given how awkward it would be if you made them leave it on two and they went and Matroned up their second Piledriver or something.

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Since you usually have information about the contents of their hand due to thoughtseize there are actually a lot of situations where stifleing the vial can be better than stifling a fetchland especially if you have dazes in hand that u can then use properly. It's all a matter of propper planning. And yes of course it's terrible to stifle a vial trigger but sometimes it's what you gotta do.