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What i mean for that was, you get too often colorscrewed with 6 duals. Lol are u kidding me? Getting colourscrewed with 6 duals and 8 fetch far more harder than playing 8 duals and 6 fetch. The chance of having 1 fetch and 1 dual on turn 2 is probably way better than 2 duals at turn 2. Since 2 duals can give GG, RR or RG while 1 fetch and 1 dual can only give RG or G or R (if it gets stifled, but the chances of that is pretty small).
I've been playing the manabase with 6duals- 8 fetch for a long time and can say that it is 'better' then the one with 6fetch. I play 4foothills and 2polluted delta/2flooded strand.
The situation where you have like 2-3 good cards on top,but dont wanna fetch em away is rather odd. More fetch makes getting ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh easier and provides better use of ponder/brainstorm. If u start with a Wooded Foothills,ur opponent might think ur not playing TT.. it fetches the same so no reason not to run it.
Also@Cenarius/Bahamuth: I have been testing Force Spike quite a while now versus many different decks and it was good nearly every time I drew it.
The bounce is good/can win u games aswell,but I agree that there are situations where you dont really want to see a bounce and/or cant afford the 3mana..
The thing I have with Force Spike though is that playing 2 might not be good enough to have a significant effect on the deck and therefor not worth replacing the bounces or bounce/clique.
I've been looking for a slot that could swith for a 3d one,but I dont really like to cut any spell snares - fire/ice is another option but kinda wanna keep that aswell. Although replacing spell snare might be the best option since it serves same function.Idea's?
We already changed our list into a 3 Spell Snare, 3 Force Spike list. Force Spike behaves like Spell Snare yet is able to counter more in early/midgame.
Cutting a Fire/ice would be a bad idea since if a creature gets online on the other side of the table, seven answers would be a bit too dangerous. Fire/Ice is the answer against a Dreadnought/Countryside crusher etc.
Our list also plays 8 fetch including 4 Wooded Foothills, 2 Polluted Delta and 2 Flooded Strand. I was just curious what arguments people could have for playing only 6 fetch.
@ Cenarius
The problem I have with Force Spike is that sometimes you don't have a creature to make profit of the the tempo which you have gained by using cheap spells. Therefore Force Spike makes sense to me if you could guarantee that you will win fast enough. But this depends on your playstyle.
After playing in five tournaments with Canadian Thresh I know that my early game is good enough and that maybe another beater like Clique is the way to go. In over 20 tournament matches I lost a total of five matches (UWb-Landstill, Enchantress, Lands, FS and Rock). I think that vs. these decks Clique might be a good option. But this totally depends on your meta.
@ 6 vs 8 fetchies:
Until now I have played with 6 fetchies but I might test 8 fetchies at my next tournament. I don't think that the difference will be huge, but there should be a "best" option.
@all:
I still think that changing the maideck by 2-4 cards won't change the power of the deck that much in general. Therefore in my opion the focus should be on the SB. Which SB for which meta, how do board depeding on play/draw etc.
Force Spike
The main problem in force spike vs bouncers is that you need a mana open in the early turns while playing bouncers you don't need to, you can make pressure knowing if opponent plays a card that fucks we up we can bounce at some time, if we are playing force spike we can't do that pressure because we need a mana open to counter anything. Daze and Fow are good because of that, and Spell Snare is good at middle/end game while Force spike not.
Fetches
I also think playing 8 fetches and 6 duals is better. Fixes mana, gets ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, gets shuffle effects and emptys land from library.
Cenarius have you tried Vendillion Clique?
Having less real mana sources makes us weaker against anything that eats non-basic lands.
Also there's still the danger of gettin manascrewed by opposing stifles.
I never had any tempoproblems so I'll stick with the 8duals-6 fetches configuration.
Yes sir, I have played the list containing 2 bounce and I have played the list containing 1 Rushing River and 1 Vendillion Clique. I personally prefer the Force Spike since it has a way better early and midgame than the bounce list/Vendillion Clique list.
With a deck like this, you don't want to reach late game. You'll simply loose against 70-80% of the metagame or something like that.
It's clear that u haven't tested Force Spike yourself since having an open mana is probably the first 5 turns in the game for a deck like this. So having more options: Stifle, Spell Snare and/or Force Spike is not so bad at all. Simply use your Force Spike first before using your Spell Snare. Then you won't have any problems later in the game.
You can't rely on your bounce if you let a card slip through. You only play 2 and the chance that you'll see one of them is pretty small. Personally I never had problems with playing with pressure and keeping a mana open. Noone will play Tarmogoyf on turn 2, unless it is needed but that may only occur once in a Tournament or something or unless you have no other alternative, which may occur more often. However that will not make Force Spike bad or something like that.
It's even easier to put pressure with Force Spike. It is not only a brilliant counter vs Vial, turn 1 creature (zoo), Dreadnought + Stifle or Top. It also counters Cantrips combining that with 4 stifle and 4 wasteland is pretty good, but that's just my opinion ofcourse.
I guess I will test the force spikes.
I played a playset disrupts in my sideboard and liked them against aggrocontrol/control and combo decks.
I think disrupt was only that good because it always replaced itself.
Force spike doesn't and it's maybe not the right choice to strenghten the disruption package since Canadian already has the best one in the whole legacyformat.
I'm currently testing 2 Predicts MD and so far those were amazing but it's to early to give a real statement.
Also one Burning-Tree Shaman found his way in the sideboard of my Clique list.
Usually I board him in for a lone clique or a fire/ice because the shaman really is fantastic in matchups where the clique struggles.
Needs moar testingzzzzzzzz!
@ EaD
Like you I played a list with 2 Predicts in the main at the last tournament. They are Ok but sometimes it costs too much mana/tempo to make them work. Normally I would want any 3cc drops in this deck but another beater with evasion should work. But I haven't played with Clique in real life. Always played a mixture of Bounce and Predict.
I think I will try one Force Spike and one Vendilion Clique in the open slots. After some games I should know which card I like more.
@ SB:
Regarding the SB I played the following in the last tournament:
4 Mind Harness
4 Naturalize (Random Meta, Besides CB and Top better than Grip)
3 Misdirection (vs Zoo, Combo and Sui/Eva Green)
4 REB/Pyroblast
Naturalize and Misdirection didn't work out that well. At the moment I am testing the following SB:
4 Mind Harness
4 REB/Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
2 BEB/Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip/Naturalize
I played last weekend in tournament against enchantress and losted 1-2. First game fast threshed mongoose and couple bolts seals the deal but other games didn't went that good. I think those 3x grips / naturalizes are needed. Enchantress has too many cards what we want to answer (moat, replenish, sacred mesa, choke and maybe humility). I losted both games just because i have to counter something else (i think it was sacred mesa) and then lost to resolved moat, just because i had 1x krosan grip in side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
Have those Mind Harness been good? I haven't tested them but i think i should..
@ Mind Harness
I think wether you play Submerge or Mind Harness comes down to personal preference. At my first tournament with Canadian Thresh I splitted 4 slots equally. But then I like Mind Harness a little bit more. We don't have any Eva Green player or Ugr Dreadstill player here but many Zoo players. In this matchup I just like Harness more and therefore I play them.
Isn't one of the main reasons we play Submerge is to answer the otherwise unanswerable Tombstalker? Can't we deal with whatever Mind Harness grabs with both Bolt and Fire//Ice?
That depends. Fire/Ice isn't very hot vs. Zoo for example. But you are right, that Submerge is good option vs decks which play Forests and Tombstalker. But in my area I haven't seen a Tombstalker in the last two months. In the end it depends on your local meta and your personal preferences.
you can deal w/ tombstalker using wipeaway and rushing river as well as 4 main deck ways to tap him down and swing.
im not saying he is not a problem, and submerge is not good vs monoblack or b/w.
btw i love wooded foothills as main fetchland in the deck because of what a previous poster said, but ill take it a step further.
at GP: Chicago, in rd2 I sat down and my 1st turn play ended up being wooded foothills and pass. I had a stifle in hand.
Since opponent did not put me on TT he went ahead and played his polluted delta and went to fetch, opening up his deck to search, while I was saying "wait up, response."
I called the judge and he gave him a warning. Then I fetched in response and stifled.
That put him on tilt pretty much and I ended up winning 2-0 vs ANT which is not a very easy matchup w/o CB/TOP. Game2 of that match, my opponent punted putting me to 1 life w/ tendrils while he actually had a Pact of negation to make it lethal.
This is where trickery really shines in magic imho. Play a fetchland that screams "ZOO" and then stifle them is just living the dream.
So is this the list you guys are running with the force spikes?
4 Goofy
4 Geese
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Force Spike
18 Lands
So what do u do if they resolve something? i think bounce is the better way to handle the midgame-lategame problem better as they will play around daze anyway for threats so they dont mind if the play around my daze or my force spike.
I'm currently testing that list but with 3 Snare, 2 Spike, 1 R.R. More testing is needed still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangle.Wire
the best list is the one running 1 wipeaway 1 rushing river.
if you're not having success with goobafish's list, you're either:
1) playing the deck wrong
2) not the right deck for the metagame you're in
I feel sorry to say this, but this guy is right. I feel confidant with this deck and when my team-mates try the deck, they feel completly out of answer and clunky. They all tell me: How are you able to play this shitty deck and win?
But the most important thing to understand is that "1 mistake = 3 steps behind = really hard to comeback". This deck is everything about keeping up the edge. I recommand reading goobafish's article (This is a bit outdated for MU and SB, but still a good article).
Best tip I can give: PLAY FUCKING 4 SUBMERGES, hell!
P-M
@ sauce/Enigma:
I agree with you that everyone who starts playing the deck should read goobafish's article and play his maindeck (maybe even his SB). But for those of us who played the deck with success, changing some cards depending on the meta and the personal playstyle might be a reasonable thing to do. In my opinion it's about knowing why goobafish plays this exact list of 60/15 cards and the circumstances where you are "allowed" to change a few slots.
True story. But I always have the feeling that one bouncer is needed (or even a Krosan Grip MD if you want) because you have nothing to do with a resolved Moat, Solitary Confinement, and a long list, while you can still tap creatures or kill 'em with fire. So, at least one bounce/KGrip is needed in main deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus
Then, the sideboard is more customizable. I don't use Pyroclasm anymore -it's obsolete-, in favour of Pithing Needle, I love that card. In decks we used Pyroclasm we can side Needle in most cases for Vial or in Soldiers-Token decks naming Decree or Elspeth, stop wastelock, recurring EE, survival, help mana denial.
I'm playing this sideboard:
4 Submerge
4 Disrupt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
If i could free space i would add one copy of Engineered Explosives, maybe replacing a Krosan Grip. Who knows.