[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Dragon Stompy's strongest play is first turn Chalice at zero followed by Magus/Blood Moon.

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If they have the ability to play both cards turn one, then yes, that's the Dragon Stompy player's best play. But if I only had the Chalice I'd cast it at one since that shuts off every discard outlet except Lion's Eye Diamond and Unmask and every draw spell except Deep Analysis (and, technically, Breakthrough at one). It shuts off the damage part of Firestorm, Chain of Vapor, Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough at zero, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Careful Study, and Pithing Needle.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Geddon Stax's is Chalice followed by Prison. Ernest's version straight loses to either of these. Even post-board

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Whether you're running eleven lands or seven, Prison is bad news unless you can remove it. This is more a problem with his sideboard than his manabase.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I would [Force Lotus Petal] if I knew what version you were playing. It probably won't hapen often though.

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Why wouldn't you just Force of Will what they play off the Lotus Petal stopping two cards instead of one?

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Originally Posted by Parcher

See, this doesn't make much sense. I agree that Ernest is a good player. I agree that Ichorid should be a ball-to-the-walls deck, which is why I have spent so much time promoting the LED version. I don't believe that "playstyle" will ever be a valid argument, however. Nor will "because I like it" ever lead toward relevancy. A bad choice is a bad choice, and sub-optimal decisions are not validated through a modicum of success.

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Hold on. I'm not justifying his deck choices based on his tournament success, there are numerous posts where I ridicule people for doing just that. And of course "playstyle" and "because I like it" are bad arguments. I was simply remarking that he plays the deck differently than you, I, and most people on the Source, and that it might be worth looking into to see if playing his way might lead to more wins. I've already said I don't agree with his use of Lotus Petals, but I want to take a long look at the way he plays and builds his deck because I think he might be onto something.

I'm not directing commentary toward you Kuma, but at those whose choices you seem to be defending.

Posting a list, then when questoned on it, replying that "U R all whinny(sic) bitches!", and "Whateva! I do whut ah want!" does nothing to prove your point. Unless your point is that you are unable to defend your choices. Especially when you boldly state that you can do so if only anyone will deign to ask you please.

New ideas pop up so infrequently with this deck due to it's requirements that most have already been tried by somone. If you are going to re-hash something tried and discarded two years ago by everyone who used it, (and I know at least I did. I even opened this thread with Ernest's 2007 list) then you had better have more to back it up than "I wun 'n U all R scrubs", or "beecuz I lyke it."

@ Majin_ZERO

You know... I NEVER said you were a lucker... I NEVER said your list is horrible... I NEVER said your win was a fluke or something...

I just wanted to know, WHY you like Petal, and WHY you think that %&#*§ Petal is better in your opinion than lands, or WHY you play them...

...because maybe we ALL want to improve this deck... and all you do is flaming, and saying mimimi, you are whiny bitches, I play Petals, but I have no arguments for it...

I don't even play CoV, cuz I don't have foil ones, and I scoop against LotV

yeah, maybe you are a lucker, you know, after all, I don't care anymore about your Petals, play with them, luck a bit more, and don't give any statements cuz you don't need to cuz you are the Champ...

:laugh:

@ Parcher

...any new results with Sadistic Hypnotist??? I found them horrible, but I am in an aggro meta... xD

...and how does your SB look like with an land in it? Have you kicked an Wispmare, or is it total different than before?


YawG

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

@ Majin_ZERO

You know... I NEVER said you were a lucker... I NEVER said your list is horrible... I NEVER said your win was a fluke or something...

I just wanted to know, WHY you like Petal, and WHY you think that %&#*§ Petal is better in your opinion than lands, or WHY you play them...

...because maybe we ALL want to improve this deck... and all you do is flaming, and saying mimimi, you are whiny bitches, I play Petals, but I have no arguments for it...

I don't even play CoV, cuz I don't have foil ones, and I scoop against LotV

yeah, maybe you are a lucker, you know, after all, I don't care anymore about your Petals, play with them, luck a bit more, and don't give any statements cuz you don't need to cuz you are the Champ...

:laugh:

@ Parcher

...any new results with Sadistic Hypnotist??? I found them horrible, but I am in an aggro meta... xD

...and how does your SB look like with an land in it? Have you kicked an Wispmare, or is it total different than before?


YawG

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I've runned Hypnotists in sideboard and it won me 2 games by themself. One agaisnt combo, the other one against ultimate walker.
IMO, they should only be is SB if you decide to run it because they are often Sub-optimal in MD

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Originally Posted by Guitar

I've runned Hypnotists in sideboard and it won me 2 games by themself. One agaisnt combo, the other one against ultimate walker.
IMO, they should only be is SB if you decide to run it because they are often Sub-optimal in MD

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I have found the same results. Maindeck he's usually fodder for Ichorid or Unmask in an opening hand, and usually a weaksauce target for Return. Yet, depending on the metagame, he will wreck some shit. I run one main, and one in the side, just because he isn't vanilla enough to cut all together, and no matter what deck you play against except the mirror, being able to empty a player's hand before turn three or four is wonderful.

Speaking of the mirror, is one's best option to just go off sooner than later? I'll go back to the front page and check the primer, but it is still lost to me.

The mirror match for ichorid consists of the following: You remove your opponent's bridges via ichorid recurring or just sacking a narcomoeba to cabal therapy them or you. In the end it's whoever get's the other to 0 life quicker i.e. you rely on ichorid and narcomoeba beatdown while you probably reanimate a gigantic GGT to try to combat your opponent's reanimated fatty. The mirror for ichorid is just a terrible game because it's like a cripple battle. That is all and the only way to sideboard for the mirror is if you actually run leyline of the void which would be retarded IMO cause it goes against this decks gameplan.

Lotus petal is terrible you don't need to accelerate this deck and the fact that it's a onetime use is even worse. I will take city of brass or gemstone mine over petal any day because the card is a one time use which doesn't do you much good if it's the only mana source in your opener or in a LEDless opener.

I'd say hypnotist is a SB card because against aggro it is not that good but it wrecks control or combo. So unless your meta is control and or combo heavy I would keep it in the SB and not MD it.

I'm still experimenting with Hypnotist. While I agree he is less useful against some decks game one, he is always more useful than FKZ in games two/three. I don't have sideboard room yet, so I'll still keep at least one main.

For right now I'm experimenting with only Chain as Leyline removal. It basically makes Leyline our "Ichorid" deck, and "Ichorid" is played very little currently, so I'm comfortable with that.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

I'm still experimenting with Hypnotist. While I agree he is less useful against some decks game one, he is always more useful than FKZ in games two/three. I don't have sideboard room yet, so I'll still keep at least one main.

For right now I'm experimenting with only Chain as Leyline removal. It basically makes Leyline our "Ichorid" deck, and "Ichorid" is played very little currently, so I'm comfortable with that.

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Hypno wrecks an agro deck. Verses zoo or gobbo or something, they don't really have any card draw, so dumping their opening hand before they get a chance to is almost a TKO. That is why I keep one MD, there is alot of merfolk, goblins, and such running around here, so worst case he gets eaten by Ichorid which is good meaning I don't have to use a dredger for said purpose

All right, need a little bit of SB help here. I'm playing in a tournament on Sunday with the following MD (very generic, 12 Land + FKZ/Sage over 2 SH, etc):

// Lands
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [FNM] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
1 [RAV] Darkblast
2 [OD] Careful Study


The only major deal is that I have Darkblast as my "3rd Thug" so to speak, which I have liked during the short time that I've tested it. I'm not a great pilot of the deck, often missing some obvious plays, but most importantly not winning quickly enough.

I'll be reading this primer as much as possible tonight to get a firmer grasp on piloting. That said, I was in the process of getting Firestorms/Unmasks/Greater Gargadon for this deck on MOTL, but now it just appears that I'm getting ripped. So, next best things, right?

What I have available for an SB before tomorrow, though:

4x Wispmares (Definitely want at least 2)
4x Chain of Vapor (Maybe 4?)
4x Leyline of the Void (Meta choice, but since I'm going in blind, it seems like I would want some of these)
3x Pithing Needle (Eh... I know it's not recommended, but when you don't have your first 2 SB choices...)
1x Ancestor's Chose (Great tech against burn, had a few games against it last night)
2x Tireless Tribe
1x Ray of Revelation

I can probably get more Rays, but I already have the Wispmare. Ancient Grudges are probably available as well. I also have, for an awkward choice, Chalice, but I don't think it's even considerable for a viable SB card.

Try something like this?

2 Whispmare (you'd only need that many unless you plan on facing a wall of enchantments)
4 Chain of Vapor (4 of, bouncing anything not pro-U will allow you to win. It's the best you can do against things like Leyline or Moat or what have you)
4 Firestorm (AOE/discard. Maybe three would be appropriate)
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Tireless Tribe (combined with/en lieu of Pimps, they are walls that let you slow roll or hold off til you can go off)

This is kinda biased against agro (fish/goblins/etc), if you were going into something more combo I'd have some Unmask in the board, 2 or 3, for the tribes, then take back that Ray as well.

Probably doesn't help if you can't get the cards in time, but there will be other tournaments. You'll probably have a good idear of what that meta will be once you have the chance to play there again.

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Originally Posted by jandax

Try something like this?

2 Whispmare (you'd only need that many unless you plan on facing a wall of enchantments)
4 Chain of Vapor (4 of, bouncing anything not pro-U will allow you to win. It's the best you can do against things like Leyline or Moat or what have you)
4 Firestorm (AOE/discard. Maybe three would be appropriate)
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Tireless Tribe (combined with/en lieu of Pimps, they are walls that let you slow roll or hold off til you can go off)

This is kinda biased against agro (fish/goblins/etc), if you were going into something more combo I'd have some Unmask in the board, 2 or 3, for the tribes, then take back that Ray as well.

Probably doesn't help if you can't get the cards in time, but there will be other tournaments. You'll probably have a good idear of what that meta will be once you have the chance to play there again.

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No Firestorms available tomorrow, but I'm 100% on running 4 in the SB once I get them. I only have 2 Tireless Tribe available for tomorrow, but I will have them in there as an additional discard outlet.

Yeah, sorry for the shitty card selection, my own fault for not having these cards ready on time + relying on complete strangers on MOTL to ship in a timely manner and/or not rip me.

I'm almost leaning towards Leyline, especially with Ichorid winning Worlds and its increased popularity.

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

No Firestorms available tomorrow, but I'm 100% on running 4 in the SB once I get them. I only have 2 Tireless Tribe available for tomorrow, but I will have them in there as an additional discard outlet.

Yeah, sorry for the shitty card selection, my own fault for not having these cards ready on time + relying on complete strangers on MOTL to ship in a timely manner and/or not rip me.

I'm almost leaning towards Leyline, especially with Ichorid winning Worlds and its increased popularity.

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The chance of you facing another ichorid is pretty slim.
Plus, when you are facing them you are dilluting your combo and waisting slots for like 1 match up.
By the way, leylines are REALLY rare, I would not really run Wispmare, it's not worth it. Four chains of vapor are way enough from what I've seen.
I would try for your sideboard to get 3 Ancient Grudge, they are really cheap and are REALLY good.
If you fear moats or any prison effect, I would put Woodfal Primus in my sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Guitar

The chance of you facing another ichorid is pretty slim.
Plus, when you are facing them you are dilluting your combo and waisting slots for like 1 match up.
By the way, leylines are REALLY rare, I would not really run Wispmare, it's not worth it. Four chains of vapor are way enough from what I've seen.
I would try for your sideboard to get 3 Ancient Grudge, they are really cheap and are REALLY good.
If you fear moats or any prison effect, I would put Woodfal Primus in my sideboard.

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Well, I know that a friend-of-a-friend is going to give Ichorid a go as well tomorrow. And I have a buddy who plays Enchantress, so I think the Wispmares are relevant (Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, Moat, that whole deal), but I do like the Woodfall Primus, though, as an "applies-for-all" DR target. You think 1 Primus >> 2 Mare in the SB?

Regardless, I think I'll be a dirty bastard and scout a little tomorrow make a proper board.

All this said, playing without Unmasks, Hypnotists, and Firestorms makes me feel a little naked. Each of the aforementioned cards are really great during MWS sessions. If I have a negative experience tomorrow with FKZ/Sage I'm definitely cutting them for SH. Sage has saved my ass a few times in testing, however.

Anyways, thanks for the tips, I suppose it's time to get some shuteye before playing tomorrow.

I would run 1 less Darkblast in the MD to get Primus in there. It is at its best G1 and Darkblast will never dredge enough cards to replace itself in the yard, making it a suboptimal MD choice. (Thug at least removes for ichorid, can get hardcast for a dude to DR/Therapy, and of course dredges 1 more._

This is a good point^^

Unless you have a flood of creatures in a metagame, 'mancers/bobs/pre-thresh critters/etc, then one maindeck Darkblast is just one dead card. And, Darkblast is for killing their creatures right? Killing their creatures = byebye Bridge. Yet firestorms do the same thing.....so I can only assume if one isn't able to go off then and there, a slow roll is in order

sry, but I don't see the point why Ancient Grudge is REALLY good...

explantation pls


My Sideboard:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
4 Greater Gargadon
1 Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sadistic Hypnotist


...and just a quick question:
with 11 Lands, better run 8 Rainbow and 3 Coliseum, or 7 Rainbow and 4 Coliseum???


YawG

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

sry, but I don't see the point why Ancient Grudge is REALLY good...

explantation pls


My Sideboard:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
4 Greater Gargadon
1 Unmask
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Sadistic Hypnotist


...and just a quick question:
with 11 Lands, better run 8 Rainbow and 3 Coliseum, or 7 Rainbow and 4 Coliseum???


YawG

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What do you side in/out for which matchup? This looks 'board I want to run

And I've found that with 7 rainbow/4 Coliseum, I'd rather have the option to draw than the option to cast a spell. Just personal preference.

I board out the Unmask unless I play against Combo, because they are somewhat useless in game 2...

...for more slots I board LED and DA and sometimes the FKZ, but I always leave one LED in the main, because it can be random-good with Witness

I'd rather had the option to play a spell than to draw a card, because it often sucks to start with only an Coliseum in your opening 7 and you think.... mmmh I can't support PImp

YawG

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

...for more slots I board LED and and sometimes the FKZ

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I'm not very familiar with the deck, but aren't these 2/4 of what make the deck tick?

Some might say its 1/2...