Yup, I agree. This isn't a big deal, it's all done for the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
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Yup, I agree. This isn't a big deal, it's all done for the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
The combat trick was basically unexpected, that fairly much placed a whole lot of the interactions for creature based formats. It just makes size matter, and sacrifice abilities meaningless.
The Exile stuff I didn't really care about, the mana stuff is okay minus the steps floating. That is understandible though.
The game just lost a lot of it's appeal for me, since most of my decks revolved around some basic combat stacking tricks. It basically removes things like ninjas assassinating someone and then vanishing or the grenader thing someone said before. Hell, they used the whole concept in ToB for DnD with Shadow Sun techniques.
It's pretty cut and dry for me really: since the game is losing its allure to me with the simplifications that are being put into effect, I am going to go back to what I was doing a few years ago before I rediscovered 1.5. That is to say, I am going to keep track of magic, but rarely if ever play and if I do, I will make sure to play a deck that benefits from the new rules changes greatly...which means Dutch Stax...other than the factory pumping thing...FUCK! The new ruling is pretty insidious. Seriously, it may be something that is forgotten with time, which people will just play on with blithely, but I was one of those people bitching about the slippery slope of simplifying new sets into creature-based game and such with onslaught and look what type two is like now. It's all foreshadowing to me. I'm just happy that MtG isn't a huge part of my life like it was a few years ago in regards to my money, my time (playtesting, sanctioned events, traveling to them, etc ,etc) and being on my mind all the time. Shit like the game being pushed into a more and more simple direction in set design has been pushing me farther and farther away from the game over the years.
Edit: When I step back and look at the rule changes, they are fairly small when you look at the objectively and try to ignore the inherent stupidness of new keywords that were chosen, but it small grievances add up in a big way. It seems like almost everything after Masques left type two has been making my connection with the game weaken. To give [older] people a bit of perspective on why my increasing disenchantment with MtG is fucked up for me is that I have been playing MtG since I was seven(I could read pretty well and I obviously grew into the game a lot) and I am almost twenty-three now. MtG is present in memories that span for over two thirds of my life. I can barely remember anything from before I was nine or so.
Pretty weird.
I hate to draw this parallel, but MtG changing for the worse(imo obviously) slowly, is like when someone and their high school sweetheart growing apart and the next thing they know, something that you expected to always be apart of their life is barely recognizable when they look at it and even though it was a slow process, it almost seems like overnight, it ceased to be part of their life. Such happens to a lot of people with different things/people, but for me it is MtG...as sad as that may be. It's very surreal. The world changes in a very perceivable fashion and it is expected, but a ever-present hobby is something that I have taken for granted.
What "factory pumping thing"? You can still pump factories, they still deal damage, its why landstill threads are still discussing spell snares instead of how the new rule changes bent them over.
No MANA BURN and COMBAT DAMAGE ON STACK???
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4QxzWw14F2...giant-eyes.jpg
Factory can still pump.
Basically the tricks that get lost are ones involving multiple blockers or sacrifice mechanisms. Which are relevant, but not everything.
It's still really stupid though.
Did anyone else really hate the tone of the piece too?
We feel that our dumb players are too dumb. Let's change the rules to how they think they should work instead of letting them get all sad faced when someone educates them. That tone?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
For reasons that elude me, most Forsythe/Gottlieb articles have sounded like that lately. It's almost like they don't even like Magic players.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
For that, at least, I can't blame them. ~NC
I played a few games with these rules, and they really aren't something to get too heavily up in arms over. I don't like them, believe me (Astral Slide is my casual pet deck and the lack of damage on the stack is going to hurt), but in most instances it's really not going to chance much of anything.
If anything, I think that the eternal players have the least to complain about. While I'll mourn the loss of Aquamoeba and Morphling, they're not even good anymore anyways. Mogg Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage are some of the few legacy creatures that really care about combat damage tricks and they're still probably playable without them. ANT takes a hit becuase it can no longer Mystical into something, break LED in upkeep and float it through to draw, but that's certainly not going to kill the deck.
I'd be far more upset about these changes if I was playing limited. Cutting half of the utility off of Unsummon effects is brutal on blue. Limited actually has situations where I'm sending my 2/2 into their 2/2 and would like to Giant Growth with damage on the stack instead of before damage to ensure that I don't get 2-for-1'd by an Incinerate/Terror. The new gang-blocking mechanic is far more likely to affect limited, where there are large numbers of creatures in play at a time and they don't all get instantly blown away. Stuff like that just doesn't come up as much in legacy.
To be realisic, ask yourself some questions -- when was the last time you used a pump spell? Used a pump spell in creature-based combat? When was the last time you used Wipe Away to bounce your dude with damage on the stack? When was the last time that you needed to split damage evenly between two blockers so that you could kill them both with a post-combat pyroclasm? When is the last time it mattered that someone died to mana burn when you Chanted their combo, instead of dying to your Goyf beats a turn or two later? I don't like these changes, but the situations that they change the most aren't too prevalent in legacy.
The combat changes feel unnecessary to me .I also don't care for the word changes, as roleplaying is just not something that appeals to me.
I got the sense that the authors were overthinking things a bit, and made the most obvious observations sound extremely profound as if we ate paste.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
That's my reply email. I'm done. Look for my collection on ebay soon.Quote:
Dear Aaron Forsythe and Mark L. Gottlieb,
Regarding your article "Magic 2010 Rules Changes":
Am I playing MtG, Pokemon, or Yu-gi-Oh? Seriously, I'm not sure anymore. The backs of my cards say "Magic: the Gathering" but I swear I'm playing a different game now. These rules changes are terrible. They're worse than terrible - they're out right insulting.
I've been playing for 15 years (since 1994). I thought that I would always play magic, especially with some of the quality of the newer sets. I've been to many pre-releases and release events, done tons of standard and type 2 tournaments going way back to Tempest. I've spent many thousands of dollars on the game. But now, with these rules changes, Mtg is no longer fun. You've taken all of the intricacies out of the game. There are no more neat little tricks to play - no more "gotcha" moments with a surprise Giant Growth. So that's it, I'm done. I'll be ebaying my entire collection starting tomorrow. Thanks for "bring the 'magic' back to Magic: the Gathering".
You can play spells in response to blockers being announced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waya
But, since you've spent the last 24 hours testing the new rules system extensively, I'm sure you knew that.
Just to clarify, the only tricks that are now obsolete are sacrificing effects and pumping up Morphling with damage on the stack. You can still "surprise" opponents with a Giant Growth or whatever. This isn't a good change but it isn't that bad.
Jak, do you never play Limited? It would be exhausting to go into all the tricks that are now impossible. Suffice it to say that there are a wide range of mechanics that, due to both the rules change on distribution of damage and on the stacking of damage, no longer work. Example;
I block your 2/3 with 3 1/1s. Let's say I have Redeem in hand. Currently all my creatures are going to survive this combat; I'll wait for you to assign damage, and then Redeem the two you choose to try and kill. Under the new rules, I lose whichever creature I don't Redeem, which, plus the Redeem itself, makes this a 1-for-2.
Elvish Warrior vs. a team of Eager Cadets isn't the most exciting example, but again, it would be exhaustive to list every instance where the interactions just became much narrower. The combat phase just lost a lot of strategic depth. It's really hard to deny this or see where the new rules are going to create new interactions in this regard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Um, no its not. You still get to cast spells after they declare block order BEFORE damage. You redeem the first two in the order of blocking. They then have to assign lethal damage to those before moving on to number 3. While I agree that limited is most bothered by the change, it is only bounce trickery that is highly changed.
Wrong. If you bounce them, they don't have to assign damage to them and just kill your remaining guy. Remember the example where he terrored the wall of swords or whatever it was. the behemoth didn't have to damage the wall before moving on to the next creature in line.Quote:
Originally Posted by jthanatos
I'm still extremely disappointed in this change. I'm not saying I'm going to quit, but I do think I'll enjoy the game less. I may end up quitting. Who knows. All I know for now is that these changes, imo, blow.
Edit//And for those who think Giant Growth doesn't get nerfed, it does. Yes, you can still surprise eat their attacking 4/4 with your 2/2 after blocks, but what about when you attack your 2/2 into theirs, and want to stack damage before pumping, in order to avoid getting 2-for-1'd? This is a legitimate play that DOES come up, and removing it is Lame. This was the entire reason Putrid Leech was a good card; It did this in Standard and in limited. Now it'll be getting killed in response to its pump all the time.
These changes are just so unneccesary. I can live with the battlefield. I can live with no mana burn, even if I don't like it.
I cannot, however, abide these combat changes.
Literacy for the win? What does redeem do? Does it bounce creatures? Did I say at the end of my post that you quoted that bounce is most affected by the change? Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
eeeh yeah, my bad. I thought it said repeal. It's 2:30 AM here so I'll chalk it up to tiredness. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by jthanatos
No, don't apologize, jthanatos still doesn't know what he's talking about. It plays out the same way whether it's bounce, pump, or damage prevention. Which still only scratches the surface of interactions that are removed from the game, especially in a Limited format.