I can say, as a NO player facing Teeg, that MD Teeg is retarded. He's nice at shutting down EE and some other strategies that often are boarded in or used against creaturebased decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp2293
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I can say, as a NO player facing Teeg, that MD Teeg is retarded. He's nice at shutting down EE and some other strategies that often are boarded in or used against creaturebased decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp2293
Teeg stops the pain in the ass landstill bombs as in humility, moat and walkers which do get played alot in my meta.
Also EE is a pain in the ass from time to time.
I do not say that Teeg is bad, I meant that just a singleton Teeg is a little random. Don't get me wrong, I run 3 in the board, but preboard you can win just fine by chaining VVs (as far as my testing experience goes).
Since we are talking about Teeg and VV, a fairly extreme corner case come up today.
I had a few VVs that ended up in the GY after my initial chaining and attacking. I drew a one drop creature and was essentially hellbent w/no canopy to cycle. I was able to Karakas my teeg and then teeg + 1 drop to trigger the VVs.
Its funny how sometimes people seem to need more of path to exile than w. wayfarer. And they usually side the wayfarers out. Can't we just put the PtE maindeck instead.. and put some other card on the sideboard.
I have seen wayfarer tricks, and they seem to benefit more when you are facing aggro control variants.. If the metagame is more aggro would you advice having path to exile maindeck instead of wayfarer or some other card?
I hate giving goblins extra lands.
In a Meta with a lot of Aggro this is a good choice. Ins uch a Meta, this deck is a good choice in general, so yes go ahead and make the switch.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
For a normal Metagame I added Wayfarer to the deck to make sure to hit the curve, since it gives you a 1-drop almost always. Especially on the draw it is important to start interacting on turn 1 or you can't play the aggressive role you want to play. Hierarch will accelerate so they probably Sword it (and if not, you will take advantage of it immediately). MoR will force them to use their Removal now ore never and if they let you untap with Wayfarer you get a free Wasteland, so they will usually also use their Sword or Daze on it. Other 1-drops like Quirion Ranger or Basking Rootwalla can just be ignored by your opponent until turn 4 or 5, so they won't count for the curve.
For the aggro SB slot against Goblins, Merfolk and Zoo the most important thing is Mana Cost 1. The Options are Oust (thx to Boolean for bringing it uo) and Path to Exile (Condemn doesnt get Mancer and Confidant so it is no option).Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
Oust won't get Manlands or help in Warchief turns. Unlike Path to Exile is also not very useful against the Eva-Style Confidant-decks or against New Horizons.
PtE is worse against Goblin Lackey and Goblins in general. But on the other hand it gets both of New Horizons big guys, Confidant and Merfolks Manlands. Overall I would still say that PtE is the best choice, it is besides StoP the only permanent, instant, unconditional Removal we have.
I agree PTE is the best choice but I was reffering to it as a MD card. Which I dont think u want vs alot of matchups
Playing the deck for a couple of days now, only a bit on MWS sadly. There's not a lot of combo or Reanimate on there, haven't faced any. So far, the deck's playing very nicely. I only lost 1 match (against soldier WW, go figure..), won the rest. I do wonder how the deck plays against combo, or for that matter, against better players. Though some off them are quite competent... MWS is still MWS.
The threat density of this deck is quite high. This is one of the first decks I've played in which I'm not too worried most off the time which of my cards get countered/removed, because there's a lot of stuff that can get there.
Vengevine really surprised me. I've won enough games just playing it as a 4 mana 4/3 haste creature. Or 2. Or I just completely surprise them by hitting them for 16 out of nowhere. Fun times.
Regarding Weathered Wayfarer, I too have the feeling they don't do enough in most matches. Most of the time when I get one of them they do nothing but being a 1/1 dork, or the 2nd creature in the turn when I chain Vengevines. When they do something, however, they are pretty insane. I'm hesitant to cut them, especially since my testing is still limited, but I'm not too impressed for now. Would something like Birds of Paradise be good as Noble 5-6? Maybe Aether Vial, although the downside is that it's not a creature. There are some more niche creatures for 1 mana in green and white, but they probably suffer the same problem Quirion Ranger does: it's a 1/1 do-nothing dork on it's own...
How about playing some number of Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard? Finds Survival in matchups where you would likely want one, and would open up some sideboard options.. Not sure how good it is though.Quote:
Originally Posted by f|i[p]
Did anyone thinked about making a mashup between this and BantSurvival?
2-3 Tropicals and adding Rhox War Monk instead of Kitchen Finks and 1 Pridemage and adding Brainstorms and/or Ponder to the deck?
You could'nt only find the survival faster, it helps against manaflood (with shuffleeffects) and finding the right creature faster.
But of course, this would make the deck less aggressive, because you have cantrips which you have to pay for.
I afcorse thought about it. The point I'm willing to put attention to this build is because it doesn't run islands and therefore is stronger in a merfolk meta. Else i'd simply go with bant survival cut the forces so you can ignore the blue count.
(just for the information purposes I took a black splash variant last week and took 8th out of 34)
This week I wanted something different. I mixed and matched.. So this is my take on the gw survival.(I called it maverick survival since it was more of a mix of Gw maverick and survival)
I took the deck to 2nd place having a 7-1-1 with the only loss against bant survival in the finals.
Just for a quick report..
Round 1 vs rock 2-0
Round 2 vs Zoo -2-1
Round 3 vs New horizons 2-0
Round 4 vs Zoo -2-0
Rouns 5 vs BRGoblin 2-1
Round 6 vs Zoo - ID
On to the Finals
Rock with Sinkholes -2-1
NOBant 2-0
Finals vs bant Surv 1-2 the only loss.
The deck is quite resilient and there isn't really a real bad batch up unless its combo. And since combo is not as popular here, Im doing great with it.
List
21 lands
1 Maze of ith
1 Gaeas cradle
1 Karakas
1 Horizon canopy
4 wasteland
2 forest
1 plains
4 savannah
4 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
Creatures
2 noble heirarch
2 birds of paradise
3 mother of runes
4 qasali pridemage
2 scryb ranger
2 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
2 stonefirge mystic
1 loyal retainers
1 squee
1 iona
Spells
4 aether vial
4 stp
4 survival of the fittest
2 path to exile
1 sword of light and shadow
1 umezawas jitte
1 basilisk collar
yes its 61.. .
SB:
3 krosan grip
3 gaddock teeg
1 path to exile
1 vexing shusher --- this was never sided in hence I might replace them on the next tournament.
1 faerie macabre
1 peace keeper -- my tech vs NO ichorid reanimator or anything that uses creatures to beat down. together with mother of runes this buys you enough time to win the game.
2 aven mindcensor --was hoping to use this against NO and bant sur. But never really got it into play in any of the games against NO and survival
1 ghostly prison -- help vs aggro and ichorid if so.
2 tormods crypt
Anyway, the reason for main deck path to exile was because I was expecting the meta to be aggro and it was so it was a very good choice rather than wayfarer. Basiliks collar over sofi... Sometimes sofi was too slow, and I usually needed something that would gain me life fast against zoo decks or aggro decks.
Scryb rangers did their job well of giving people head aches when combined with mother of runes and knight. Pro blue was just an additional plus. It helped me attack and block with basilisk collar with 1 creature.
The equipments were very good. Collars were very good against aggro and were easily equiped gaining me life instantly, sword of light and shadow was good against black decks as well as white decks and together with ranger it helped me recur blockers. Umezawas jitte however was just used to destroy oppising jitte.
If I were to fix it a little I would probaby go for the 3rd noble instead of 1 birds since I don't really use SoFI, fix up my sideboard as well.
What I want for the deck: I still want the deck to have a creature removal that can be tutored by survival.
Stone forge mystic I think can go as a 1 of if you plan to pack it in survival. Or even go back to the traditional 2 jittes. And have maybe one stoneforgeon the side. or evem none at all. I don't think they were ever needed as a 2 of.
Aether vials were very very good.
Against bant survival, I think Ive accepted the fact that the first player who gets survival online is the most probable winner.And its usually them, its not a really really bad match up, but it is a little bit in their favor. This deck has less problems with blue based decks, and thats one advantage over bant survival.
I am still experimenting, testing different builds and contemplating which cards are really important.
Congratulations to the great finish! But your list sure looks random, for example the Tarmogoyf/Scryb Ranger split. Anyway, your version seems to have done well for you and like you said this is not really GW Survival but a mix with Maverick. It still shows the power of the Archetype.
Even though I don't like these cards atm I can understand the reasoning behind playing Maze of Ith, Scryb Ranger and Stoneforge Mystic. But I think that VeVi is different, there should not be a question to include those. Imo this is as close to a strict improvement as it gets. You can debate about many things in this deck without coming to a clear conclusion, but I think that Vengevine is one of the few cards that are just superior to their alternative.
It would be Brainstorm only, Ponder is nowhere near Brainstorm in terms of what this deck needs. In my current version it would be -1 Land, -2 Wayfarer, - 1 Pridemage, +4 Brainstorm and a redo of the mana base. That would certainly add consistency to the draws and make the deck more powerful, while weakening the manabase abd getting more vulnerable to Wasteland, Lord of Atlantis, Moons, B2B and PoP. I am not sure how much better RWM is than Finks. You can cast Finks with Wasteland in play and it helps against Edicts, Weirdings, Smokestacks and Wrathes so I'd probably split them. But overall I am really tempted to try the Brainstorm splash since it is so powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Windux
Thanks. The result and the deck list was all meant for information purposes. It was not meant to show people that it was a superior build on the archetype, just food for thought. For those who dont own Vengevines like me, I will have to stick with the iona retainers for now. I will test the vengevine version in mws and see how it goes.
@ the blue splash, I have always wanted to test the blue splash just for brainstorm and warmonk. I think warmonks are superior to finks in most situations. I also think it all depends on the metagame. If your metagame is full of zoo then I think its ok to get a blue splash. But if merfolks run rampant in yours, youd rather take Gw version. In my meta, merfolks don't get that far since its quite infested by zoo.
Lately I've come to the conclusion that I'm not too happy with Wayfarer. UW seems better fit to abuse it, it didn't seem that great here. But I agree that the decks possibly wants more than 8 turn 1 plays, so I've decided to give Mirris Guile a try as a 2 off. Any thoughts on this?
If you don't like Wayfarer, you can try running either Tithe, that or play Mox Diamond instead of Birds/Druid so that Wayfarer has more chances to shine.
@DrJones: The deck is not about Wayfarer. He was just meant as a 1-drop to fix the curve
Overall: It seems that 55 cards are dead set: Playsets of Hierarch, MoR, Qasali, Goyf, KotR, VeVi, Survival, StoP + 22 lands and 1 Rootwalla. I don't think I'd cut or reduce any of these atm. For the rest is possible: 23rd land (I prefer 23 lands), Aether Vial, Brainstorm, Finks, Wayfarer, Stoneforge + Toolbox, Scryb Ranger.
I played about 5 games against this landstill deck (preboard).
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=33317 -1 fetch, plus 1 island.
Venges allowed for me to win most of the games because of their haste and recursion eats jaces and eventually swing fatal. They have no exile removal, but do have quad deeds!
Game 1 the vengevine version seems like it loses a little bit of win % versus merfolk (all lord no standstill), compared to the older configuration of Iona + equipment version.
Particularly, Iona was a flyer that could answer and kill flying Cobra Commanders. Or lock the deck out of blue if they did not have a vial out, and swing fatal fast. The equips allowed to mow down the troops before multiple lords could stack up. Post board with extra paths and still having no islands makes the win % go up again.
Yeah, VeVis are particularly good against that version ;)
The Merfolk matchup has become worse in general since they started to run 16 Lords instead of 8. Like you said, especially Coralhelm is a pain. And Kira can be annoying, too. It is still a good matchup, but not the autowin it used to be anymore.
I've been looking for a G/W deck for a while to play and it seems I found the right deck. I've been reading a little in the thread and I have a few questions.
I think I agree with this observation. Not only does it makes total sense to me, but I've also learned to listen to Tao when he's talking about survival. do have an observation though:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Would adding Vial or Brainstorm really be an improvement? As far as I'm concerned you want to play as many good creatures as possible to go plain Stompy whenever the Survival route doesn't work. Lowering the amount of creatures in the deck does invalidate that plan, as well as leaving you with less creatures in the deck to fetch with whenever you do get survival. Now I know at least Tao has played his share of more controling versions of Survival, sacrifising creatures for discard and Deed, but since W/G doesn't have such a thing to offer, wouldn't it be just smarter to get the creaturecount up as high as possible? I remember back in the day I even cut Burning Wish to 2 to make room for more creatures.
Another thing I was wondering, is if it's really smart to open ourselves up to manadenial strategies by splashing for a 3th color. I get that Brainstorm and Clone are good, but I don't think it's woth it.
I was also wondering about the lack of Eternal Witness in the latest lists. Not having played (non-elves)Survival for quite a few years, this really strikes me as a supprise. Has her ability become obsolete, or does the deck simply not need a way to recur countered/griped Survivals and provide survivable StP? The fact Tao didn't mention it in his list for possible options for the last 4-5 spots in the deck does make it seem like it's not a consideration anymore.
When cutting Wayfarer (which is a card I really dislike, don't ask my why), would you still keep the manabase the same with as much singletons? Knight functions very good as a tutor on legs, but when you cut 2-3 Wayfarers, that almost halves the amount of tutors in the deck to search for said singletons.
And my latest question (I guess you guys must be tired of me by now) might be a little of a n00b question, but since the moment people have chosen to go the Vengevine-route, they seem to have forgotten about Iona. Would it be an idea to run both 4x Vengevine and reserve 2 spots of the open 4-5 for a Retainer/Iona, or do the Vengevine change the deck so much this isn't an option? It looks like an advantage to be able to chose which route to go depending on the gamestate, but I guess this makes the deck even more reliable on Survival in a format filled with Pridemages and Grips.