[B&R] Mystical Tutor banned / Illusionary Mask and Grim Monolith unbanned

I haven't gone through all posts but it's more appropriate to ban 1 card than multiple cards that are broken with Mystical Tutor: Ad Nauseam, Show and Tell, Eureka and Entomb. These decks can still thrive although with reduced power level.

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Originally Posted by Supernaut

I haven't gone through all posts but it's more appropriate to ban 1 card than multiple cards that are broken with Mystical Tutor: Ad Nauseam, Show and Tell, Eureka and Entomb. These decks can still thrive although with reduced power level.

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"Reduced power level" basically means they're dead. Do you really want to be the combo deck that can get raced by Zoo while being locked out by Counterbalance and out-tempo'd by Merfolk? Seems pretty shitty to me.

I gotta say I like the change. Storm decks will still be played, so the skilled pilots have few things to worry about. The great thing is that this will lower the amount af storm decks played by shitty players (EOT Mystical, Next turn AN no longer possible), so Aggro might actually have a chance again (I know it is still present in America, but In Germany and I think in the Netherlands as well the meta evolved as much that you either play blue, play Tendrils or you loose.)

I couldn't care less about the unbannings, but shaving combo a little is something I definately appreciate.

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Originally Posted by paK0

I gotta say I like the change. Storm decks will still be played, so the skilled pilots have few things to worry about. The great thing is that this will lower the amount af storm decks played by shitty players (EOT Mystical, Next turn AN no longer possible), so Aggro might actually have a chance again (I know it is still present in America, but In Germany and I think in the Netherlands as well the meta evolved as much that you either play blue, play Tendrils or you loose.)

I couldn't care less about the unbannings, but shaving combo a little is something I definately appreciate.

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I keep seeing how "skilled pilots" are somehow impervious to the ban. Where is this idea coming from? Mystical Tutor adds consistency to the deck, it doesn't dumb it down. The deck isn't more complex without Mystical Tutor. If anything, adding 4 cantrips dumbs down the decision making process of when to use Mystical Tutor and deciding what to go for.

I hate Combo and Reanimator, I don't play them, and I hate playing against it, but I think it was the wrong thing to do.

Also, why did Grim shoot up to infinite dollars? It's not even in a deck yet. Is this pure speculation at work, once again?

-Matt

Grim Monolith is wild speculation for people looking for the next Entomb. I think the window to get them at a reasonable price was, quite literally, two hours.

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Originally Posted by routlaw

Grim Monolith is wild speculation for people looking for the next Entomb. I think the window to get them at a reasonable price was, quite literally, two hours.

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I got 3 of them for $11
I love local shops where the owner doesn't know shit about magic

I love when people feel compelled to let the world know how much money they spent on illustrated playing cards.

On another note, horrible decision by WotC to not provide a reason for the banning. After all, it must've been thoroughly discussed within as to why, and yet they're going wait a week before letting us know their reasoning? If that isn't the biggest middle finger to legacy players...

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I hate Combo and Reanimator, I don't play them, and I hate playing against it, but I think it was the wrong thing to do.

Also, why did Grim shoot up to infinite dollars? It's not even in a deck yet. Is this pure speculation at work, once again?

-Matt

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Yes. Even for someone like me, who doesn't plan to resell for profit (I bought a playset), my mentality was "oh shit, this might be useful in some deck in the future, so I might as well grab it right now". It's unfortunate.

No way in hell is an Urza's Legacy card worth $30.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

You people need to quit crying. Mystical Tutor was a good ban. It doesn't completely get rid of either Storm Combo or Reanimator, but makes them not the two strongest decks in the format anymore (They were, btw.)

Illusionary Mask will see play with Dreadnought and a few other things that have face-up triggers (Fathom Seer comes to mind.) I think between it and Grim Monolith, a very powerful Trinket Mage deck will emerge.

Grim Monolith, however, is -extremely- powerful in this format, and immediately goes into several existing archetypes as follows.

1. Belcher can, should, and will run 4 Grim Monolith. It's true acceleration in a Storm ramp, and it's excellent for getting a Belcher down on an acceleration-light hand.

2. Dragon Stompy will attempt to run Grim Monolith. This may be what gives rise to Covetous Dragon being playable in the deck, and it will more likely bring Arc-Slogger back for it.

3. Painter Stone will get better. Grim Monolith lets this combo go off on turn two via turn one Monolith (Off a tomb, city, petal, whatever), turn two land, Grindstone, Painter, Activate, win.

4. Other weird decks will emerge now that getting 6 mana on turn two is a very possible part of Legacy.

EDIT: Also, I can't help but wonder if Mono Black Reanimator gains ground on U/B because of this. It's certainly where I'm leaning. Packing Putrid Imp, Animate Dead, 4 Iona, a couple Terastodons and Sphinxes, etc.

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I agree with most of this and would like to extend a heartfelt thank you to WOTC for finally getting a banning/unbanning right. This goes a long way toward balancing the 'holy trinity' of archetypes which had gotten seriously out of whack. If they only had the stones to also take down either Sensei's Top or Counterbalance the format would be in harmony...maybe next time.

But more important what will the new meta look like? I'm thinking HelmLine with rituals and monoliths or maybe classic Wildfire? surely that must be able to beat Zoo and Lands?

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

I agree with most of this and would like to extend a heartfelt thank you to WOTC for finally getting a banning/unbanning right. This goes a long way toward balancing the 'holy trinity' of archetypes which had gotten seriously out of whack. If they only had the stones to also take down either Sensei's Top or Counterbalance the format would be in harmony...maybe next time.

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In harmony? So, it was out of harmony? Have you seen recent tournament results? e.g. top 8s:

• Bazaar of Moxen had 1 ANT in top 8 (almost 500 competitors)
• SCG Open Seattle had 1 Reanimator
• SCG Open Philly had 1 ANT
• SCG Open Atlanta had 3 Reanimator and 1 ANT
• SCG Open Orlando had 1 Reanimator
• SCG Open Indianapolis had 1 Reanimator
• Most recent Vestal . . . no Reanimator, no ANT

Clearly shows how warped the format was. Thank God they put an end to those singleton top 8s!

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Originally Posted by MMogg

In harmony? So, it was out of harmony? Have you seen recent tournament results? e.g. top 8s:

• Bazaar of Moxen had 1 ANT in top 8 (almost 500 competitors)
• SCG Open Seattle had 1 Reanimator
• SCG Open Philly had 1 ANT
• SCG Open Atlanta had 3 Reanimator and 1 ANT
• SCG Open Orlando had 1 Reanimator
• SCG Open Indianapolis had 1 Reanimator
• Most recent Vestal . . . no Reanimator, no ANT

Clearly shows how warped the format was. Thank God they put an end to those singleton top 8s!

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You're only looking at one side of this. Storm combo and to a much lesser extent Reanimator held back non blue decks to where it was basically only blue decks, combo and Reanimator, and then Zoo because it preyed on the blue decks. Now, hopefully some decks with slower disruption can compete.

I agree with all the people that hate the Mystical ban not because it kills a deck I play (I haven't played combo for quite a while), but rather because I see it as an indicator of WotC's attitude. I play only eternal formats because I dislike the "I have a creature" - "ok, I have a better creature" feel of Standard. This ban, to me, indicates that WotC will try to remove anything from the format that relies on complicated spellchains, setup and general stack-interaction as soon as it becomes truly viable (both decks nerfed by this were far from dominating in my experience) so as to push the format closer to the boring big spell sorcery speed crapshot that is standard. Combo is something that has always been and should be part of the Magic experience. Cutting it down when it is just good instead of too good is a very bad precedent.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

You're only looking at one side of this. Storm combo and to a much lesser extent Reanimator held back non blue decks to where it was basically only blue decks, combo and Reanimator, and then Zoo because it preyed on the blue decks. Now, hopefully some decks with slower disruption can compete.

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Right, but the side I'm looking at is fact, and what you're talking about is speculation. We'll see if that speculation comes into fruition.

I don't see the speculation. It's pretty well known that blue decks held combo in check and for the most part were the only real challenging matchups for ANT.

I also think it's narrow to just look at North America to judge how powerful combo is. Combo is a lot more played and thus a lot more prevalent and puts up much higher numbers overseas, in europe in particular.

And tournament wins are an imperfect way to measure how degenerate a deck actually is. Decks that take a lot of skill to pilot properly are less likely to top 8. Decks that are complicated and thus grueling to play through 8 rounds of a tournament without fatigue setting in are less likely to top 8 at a tournament. Decks with a large learning curve are less likely to top 8 at a tournament. But none of those factors define the actual power level of the deck.

ANT I believe was all of those things. That it still managed to top 8 so frequently even in north america is a testament to the deck's strength.

Additionally, I'm almost certain that either it, or TES will survive this banning and continue to perform very well in the format, especially in Europe where the deck is more popular.

I do like the banning of MT, think an instant tutor for 1 mana is definitely broken. On the other a 1 mana critter being 3/3 and a 2 mana critter being 4/5 is just as broken! What annoys me even more about nacatl and goyf is that a 13 year old kiddie saying lol while laughing and piloting copied lists from the internet like a moron can win with it. That is most definitely the wrong direction of magic.
@wizards: please, please print a broken critter with protection from green and red+vigilance

*sigh*

I came back to Magic to play legacy. I saw a great format with a healthy metagame and WotC wasn't trying to screw it up. The reserved list fiasco a few months back almost convinced me to quit again, I figured I'd stick it out a bit longer. Now this? Banning things which aren't breaking the format is really straining my confidence. The DCI coming out of nowhere and bludgeoning a perfectly innocent deck to death just makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by Jon Stewart

I don't see the speculation. It's pretty well known that blue decks held combo in check and for the most part were the only real challenging matchups for ANT.

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It's speculation because the assumption is that with combo weakened there will be an increase in the number of viable non-blue, non-combo decks to play. What I'm asserting is that that is not necessarily the case and that decks already in the top tier of Legacy can just as easily fill in those missing spots in the top 8 and there won't be a broadening of the tier 1 decks.

Edit: I also, actually, dislike this whole fixation with blue versus non-blue. Decks are not clearly blue or non blue and with so much aggro-control around the traditional boundaries are more blurred now than ever before. I think the whole blue vs. non-blue paradigm should just die. If a top 4 has Countertop, New Horizons, Bant and Reanimator . . . which of those is blue? Are they all blue? Is there a problem with those four decks being in the top 4? I think they're all distinctive decks and it doesn't point to some disharmonious imbalance that needs some cure. Most decks are multi-colour; that a lot of tier 1 decks utilize blue doesn't mean we need to somehow make mono-colored aggro decks more viable. *sigh*

I personally don't care at all about the banning. I'm kind of unhappy about wizards wanting to pull the plug on legacy. Obviously we'll be fine but we may lose some top players who will only play whatever wizards flavor of the week happens to be.