Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
My point was deviating too far away from the main idea is bad. I never said we should play his 75 and I never said that change in a decklist is bad. To me, it just makes no sense to change 16 cards of a very solid deck. You don't see Goblins or Merfolk shifting around 16 cards at a time. They move 4 cards at a time or 8 cards at a time. Their strategies generally stay the same.
I think the lists I've come up with could easily be a stable point for the archetype. I don't really think there's a need to take one of my lists and change out 16 cards back and forth. Caveat: I think transformational sideboarding can be extremely effective generally and in this archetype in particular.
Quote:
That said, I'm actually a supporter of Gritaxian Probe, since I always seem to get my Cabal Therapies misstepped, but I really don't see a point in playing 4 probes + 8 baubles. At that point, you might as well just played Mana Dredge.
Mana Dredge isn't a bad deck. It's in the Deck to Beat section, so doing something similar to it is certainly not going to hurt your chances to win, all else equal. Even with the Baubles, though, the Manaless build has a large number of key differences compared to Mana Dredge. Mostly, it's much more consistent (even with the Baubles) and much more resilient (to most hate) at a slight speed cost. All adding the Baubles does is tweak the ratios of speed, resiliency, and consistency slightly.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ajfirecracker
I think the lists I've come up with could easily be a stable point for the archetype. I don't really think there's a need to take one of my lists and change out 16 cards back and forth. Caveat: I think transformational sideboarding can be extremely effective generally and in this archetype in particular.
When I said 16 cards, I meant the inclusion of 4 probes, 8 baubles, and other new innovative tech people are coming up with. I mean the majority of you haven't decided on a 'core' while some have gone on to discuss speeding it up without really understanding the purpose of being manaless.
I did find your list interesting - the list from a few pages back, before the 20/20 discussion. you discussed going to Rausch's mainboard postboard and then playing with the speeded up version manaless ichorid preboard. I think that was you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ajfirecracker
Mana Dredge isn't a bad deck. It's in the Deck to Beat section, so doing something similar to it is certainly not going to hurt your chances to win, all else equal. Even with the Baubles, though, the Manaless build has a large number of key differences compared to Mana Dredge. Mostly, it's much more consistent (even with the Baubles) and much more resilient (to most hate) at a slight speed cost. All adding the Baubles does is tweak the ratios of speed, resiliency, and consistency slightly.
Well they also have a huge advantage in taht they have the proper tools to fight Enchantment-based graveyard hate without having to move around more than 8 cards, which is nice. With the inclusion of phantasmagorian in their deck.. and some people maindecking Firestorm, I don't think that they are struggling as much against misstep now. But I do like how Manaless Ichorid plays more dredgers. That's just good fun.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
When I said 16 cards, I meant the inclusion of 4 probes, 8 baubles, and other new innovative tech people are coming up with. I mean the majority of you haven't decided on a 'core' while some have gone on to discuss speeding it up without really understanding the purpose of being manaless.
The point of being manaless is to dodge counterspells and other tempo plays in a blue-dominated metagame. This goal is impaired little to not-at-all by running Gitaxaian Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, as counterspells are extremely ineffective at stopping these lines of play for a simple reason: You don't want the cantrip unless you have a dredger in the graveyard. If you have the dredger and they counter your Bauble (or, more likely, Probe, as it's the much more powerful spell) simply pass the turn, dredge on your next draw step, look at your hand, and realize it's currently got 8 cards.
Quote:
I did find your list interesting - the list from a few pages back, before the 20/20 discussion. you discussed going to Rausch's mainboard postboard and then playing with the speeded up version manaless ichorid preboard. I think that was you...
Definitely not me. I think Rausch's mainboard is too creature-heavy and grindy (although in all fairness my initial builds I posted on the other forum were fairly similar). I think if you can run any meaningful sideboard whatsoever, you have to warp the deck significantly in response. So with the Aggro/Depths plan, you want to max out on cantrips and Dakmor Salvage in the main-deck, and therefore also Bloodghast. It's also important with a transformational sideboard that you actually win the first game, so having more explosive plays like 3x River Kelpie, 1x Flame-Kin Zealot 4 Dread Return becomes a necessity as well.
Alternately, if you have a strong anti-combo sideboard (I think these are the only two sideboards currently worth running), you probably want to maximize wins against everything else with the main-deck and be fairly grindy.
As to whether or not Dread Return is something worth building around, I certainly think it is, and Rausch clearly agreed. He ran 4 in the main-deck, 2 dedicated targets, and the ability to go up to a million targets post-board (I think he typically sided in 3 at SCG Cinci). His deck is fairly grindy pre-board but more or less just goes Reanimator post-board, hoping to use his absurdly large number of creatures and targets to get lucky and get an early Dread Return (alternately, just be Dredge for the win). The problem I have with this is that it doesn't really beat much of anything he can't beat with his main-deck, and even if it did, it doesn't actually change his strategic posture at all. He's still playing the exact same strategy post-board, just a bit more aggressively.
Quote:
Well they also have a huge advantage in taht they have the proper tools to fight Enchantment-based graveyard hate without having to move around more than 8 cards, which is nice. With the inclusion of phantasmagorian in their deck.. and some people maindecking Firestorm, I don't think that they are struggling as much against misstep now. But I do like how Manaless Ichorid plays more dredgers. That's just good fun.
They don't really. There are many Mana lists that perform running some number of Ancient Grudge and little to no anti-enchantment cards sideboard.
The raw consistency of manaless is much, much higher in my opinion. We will typically have a 90% chance of having a keepable opening 7, and I would say 30%+ of having a god-hand (i.e. a Golgari Grave-Troll or Stinkweed Imp with cantrips) while their god-hand probability is much lower, maybe 15-20% (i.e. Discard dork, land, dredger, draw spell) and falls apart much more easily.
As to the whole "Thoughtseize is a Time Walk" thing: Occasionally Mana Dredge will simply be impervious to Thoughtseize with a super stacked hand, but usually Thoughtsieze (and even Duress) is a single/double Time Stretch. It being a Time Walk against us is actually an upgrade. Alternately, you can compare this to other combo decks, where Thoughtseize varies from "target player does nothing this game" (Hive Mind) to "target player plays some 1/1's for 1 but otherwise does nothing this game" (Combo Elves) to roughly Time Walk (ANT and friends) to us, where it's a Time Walk if it comes down Turn 1, but otherwise is almost entirely blank.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
I'd like to pose a question to all Bauble demurrers: does the maindeck need to attain ultra-resiliency in game one when there's no grave hate? Doesn't it have enough grinding capability already?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
I did find your list interesting - the list from a few pages back, before the 20/20 discussion. you discussed going to Rausch's mainboard postboard and then playing with the speeded up version manaless ichorid preboard. I think that was you...
I've seen this line of thought before (I believe it was Final Fortune), and it certainly intrigues me. Take the list I'm currently running (you can find it a page back, but to summarize, it's distinguishable from other Bauble lists by its 4 Nether Shadow, 2 Phantasmagorian, and 2 Mishra's Bauble). If you wanted to run a resiliency package, the sideboard plan could look something like this:
1 Angel of Despair
1 Terastodon
The Dread Return targets (note that the Sphinx/Kelpie/FKZ package in the main ups the effectiveness of these guys a lot in crafting a 'big turn' versus something like 43 Lands) that come in versus prison or lock decks, or for whatever you might feel like.
4 Bloodghast
3 Dakmor Salvage
The anti-Crypt, anti-Bog package. Comes in for the six Baubles and another card to beef up resiliency. Probably better than Leyline of Sanctity, actually, for what it aims to accomplish, although it does take up seven slots and isn't as multifaceted.
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mishra's Bauble
The anti-fast combo package. Comes in for 2 Phantasmagorian and 4 Shambling Shell (or Nether Shadow). Aims to up the chances of winning on turn 2 mightily or at least cast Cabal Therapy on turn two by casting LED on the first turn, subsequently casting any draw spells/cycling Street Wraith, and then cracking LED in response to bin your dredger(s). You can safely aggressively mulligan to six with this configuration, at least by my estimation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ajfirecracker
The point of being manaless is to dodge counterspells and other tempo plays in a blue-dominated metagame. This goal is impaired little to not-at-all by running Gitaxaian Probe and Mishra's/Urza's Bauble, as counterspells are extremely ineffective at stopping these lines of play for a simple reason: You don't want the cantrip unless you have a dredger in the graveyard. If you have the dredger and they counter your Bauble (or, more likely, Probe, as it's the much more powerful spell) simply pass the turn, dredge on your next draw step, look at your hand, and realize it's currently got 8 cards
This or something similar should definitely be on the front page of this thread to prevent potential misconceptions of the Bauble versions of the deck. The draw spells really don't weaken the deck at all versus countermagic when played correctly.
Also, out of curiosity, what is your current full anti-fast combo sideboard, and what are you boarding out for it? The above config for me has been awesome in goldfishing, and that's without even Leyline of Sanctity or Serum Powder or whatever in place of sacrificial creatures 9-12 (Nether Shadow in this case, Bloodghast otherwise) postboard.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KevinTrudeau
I'd like to pose a question to all Bauble demurrers: does the maindeck need to attain ultra-resiliency in game one when there's no grave hate? Doesn't it have enough grinding capability already? .
It is and it always has been, even LED Dredge and LEDless Dredge were and are capable of beating aggro-control and control with DDD game 1 followed by a supporting land + draw spell. The real difference between those Dredge decks and this Dredge deck is that Manaless Dredge replaces lands for more business and replaces draw spells with more cost efficient, but less effective cantrips. The end result is other Dredge decks are faster while this Dredge deck is more consistent game 1 because even tho' this Dredge deck doesn't Dredge as much off cantrips, the threat density is higher from replacing lands with business so the quality of those Dredges are better.
The real philosophy argument behind LED Dredge, LEDless Dredge, MTGO Classic Dredge (the list I advocated) and Manaless Dredge is whether or not lands and the utility of cards like Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Firestorm, Ancient Grudge and Chain of Vapor vs. hate is actually better than overloading your deck with Nether Shadow, Bloodghast and Dakmor Salvage, Shambling Shell and Phantasmagorian and just powering thru' hate when your opponent draws it and playing a much stronger deck without anti-hate and with additional business when he doesn't draw it.
For me, not playing the 16 cantrip version if you are playing Manaless Dredge is wrong, from a meta stand point, because the marginal utility of Nether Shadow, Gigapede or certain Dredge Return targets is much lower versus aggro-control and control than speed is vs. everything. Even traditional Dredge staples like Putrid Imp need to be debated when your capable of playing Lion's Eye Diamond and Phantasmagorian MD with absolutely no drawbacks vs. hate and can SB in to more resilient outlets game 1. In the end, I think focusing on increasing the deck's gold fish and just relying on resiliency vs Tormod's Crypt esq hate and scooping to Leyline of the Void is what's going to put you into the brackets. Whether or not that's the 16 cantrip list, the Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis list or some kind of mana Dredge with Breakthrough I don't really know. There are a lot of MD iterations to choose from, but the one thing I am certain of is that your deck should look as much as Rausch's list game 2 as you can get it.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Hey, guys! I've top 3'd a weekly ~20 man tournament 3 weeks in a row! Let's all listen to me!
Seriously, though...
@FF:
From a meta standpoint, combo decks is a ridicilously tiny part of the metagame and Cabals + Iona can usually ruin Hive Minds plan just enough.
@KT:
Assuming Shambling Swarm is supposed to be Shambling Shell I really DO like your latest list, after reading about your sideboard-choices.
I feel like that is a good amount of cyclers and that the grindyness in the SB is a great choice. I do NOT like just playing 2 Phantasmagorian since he literally is THE best way to go crazy game 1, AND he helps you fight through relics game 2-3.
I will try out a build running a few (~6) Bauble's & a playset of probes for game 1 - removing gigapede totally (I think I'll feel this loss, but let's see) & putting the dakmor + bloodghast-package in the board, definitely interesting!
Just a few questions:
1. To you not running a grindy SB-package in your Bauble-lists, how does this list hold out to Relics? It just feels like it could get hurt. Also; do they keep counterspells in?
2. I can see the point of running manaless to get around Mental Misstep, etc, but still wanting a quick game 1... But what do you actually do against decks that can do something against this? Getting your DR countered, i.e.? I guess the list is still grindy enough to just keep going.
I've settled on a list close to KT's to try and be open-minded and try this out and see how it rolls in this wednesdays weekly legacy-tournament:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
3 Phantasmagorian
SB:
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (yes, I still like her)
1 DR-target
1 DR-target
Contagion left out since I never see Jailers in my store. I'd love you Bauble-players opinion on this, and try and be open minded and not go "grind G2 sucks!".
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
berry
Hey, guys! I've top 3'd a weekly ~20 man tournament 3 weeks in a row! Let's all listen to me!
Seriously, though...
@FF:
From a meta standpoint, combo decks is a ridicilously tiny part of the metagame and Cabals + Iona can usually ruin Hive Minds plan just enough.
@KT:
Assuming Shambling Swarm is supposed to be Shambling Shell I really DO like your latest list, after reading about your sideboard-choices.
I feel like that is a good amount of cyclers and that the grindyness in the SB is a great choice. I do NOT like just playing 2 Phantasmagorian since he literally is THE best way to go crazy game 1, AND he helps you fight through relics game 2-3.
I will try out a build running a few (~6) Bauble's & a playset of probes for game 1 - removing gigapede totally (I think I'll feel this loss, but let's see) & putting the dakmor + bloodghast-package in the board, definitely interesting!
Just a few questions:
1. To you not running a grindy SB-package in your Bauble-lists, how does this list hold out to Relics? It just feels like it could get hurt. Also; do they keep counterspells in?
2. I can see the point of running manaless to get around Mental Misstep, etc, but still wanting a quick game 1... But what do you actually do against decks that can do something against this? Getting your DR countered, i.e.? I guess the list is still grindy enough to just keep going.
I've settled on a list close to KT's to try and be open-minded and try this out and see how it rolls in this wednesdays weekly legacy-tournament:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 Flame-kin Zealot
3 Phantasmagorian
SB:
3 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria (yes, I still like her)
1 DR-target
1 DR-target
Contagion left out since I never see Jailers in my store. I'd love you Bauble-players opinion on this, and try and be open minded and not go "grind G2 sucks!".
Grinding G2 sucks.
No, not really. It is probably less good than just next-leveling the hate with Marit Lage, but it's certainly acceptable if a lot of people are playing decks you can just grind out.
My argument against Phantasmagorian is that he can fill one of two roles, one of which is actually subtly bad:
1) He can be a creature-generation engine with Nether Shadow and (to a lesser extent) Bloodghast. In this role, you always want to max out on Phantasmagorian, and your deck feels really awkward until you get 1 or sometimes even 2 online. I think these builds rely too much on Phantasmagorian, as the proper number to run is probably around 6 because of how important he is to your plan, but you can also flood out on the 4 you're allowed.
2) He can be a mid-combo assist, allowing you to get a shot of resources or loop 2 Phantastagorians together to have an actual engine. In this role, I think you only need 2, maybe 3 in the deck. I definitely win games where he fills this role and I only use one Phantasmagorian card all game (say, with a double/triple discard in the middle of drawing 8 cards with River Kelpie).
As to Relic of Progenitus: I typically run all 16 free cantrips, and all 16 of them play through Relic. I also typically run some number of Phantasmagorian (the Hexmage list doesn't have room, but my other lists all run at least the first two). Every one of those cards plays through Relic. Gitaxian Probe, for example, is entirely capable of getting you started through a Relic. (T1 Discard anything, T2 cast Gitaxian Probe, then discard a dredger. Due to discard happening in Cleanup, this will work.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KevinTrudeau
Also, out of curiosity, what is your current full anti-fast combo sideboard, and what are you boarding out for it? The above config for me has been awesome in goldfishing, and that's without even Leyline of Sanctity or Serum Powder or whatever in place of sacrificial creatures 9-12 (Nether Shadow in this case, Bloodghast otherwise) postboard.
I've been focused on the Marit Lage plan, but I would say that my current anti-fast combo plan looks like this:
Maindeck:
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Shambling Shell
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 River Kelpie
Sideboard:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Realm Razer
1 Child of Alara
This list reflects a lot of my personal beliefs about dredge (like the realization that Realm Razer is probably just the best creature to run in the second blow-everything-up slot, or the first Iona, Shield of Emeria slot. No mana is a lot like Iona naming every color; since Iona only names 1 color you usually need to Therapy out possible lines of play before you drop her, which is not any worse in the case of Realm Razer.) It also reflects the realization that a bunch of 1-of Dread Return targets in the sideboard are extremely well supported by a bunch of draw creatures in the main, but still just aren't worth running.
As to the anti-combo parts of the sideboard: I think Lion's Eye Diamond and a million cantrips is the way to go, and I've had some success using Unmask in that slot, but LED is basically a strict upgrade.
Chancellor of the Annex is unexciting but being able to board up to a million Dread Return targets that just win the game against Tendrils, and actually do something from the opening hand, is pretty great.
Mindbreak Trap has some dissynergy with Lion's Eye Diamond, but is still probably just better than Leyline of Sanctity, which doesn't do a lot even when you get it in your opening hand. Additionally, having free countermagic shuts off Ill-Gotten Gains as a line of play, which is huge when you consider that they'd much rather go for that than risk it with Ad Nauseam.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Hey guys,
last sunday I paticipated in a local tourney with 77 attending. My list I played:
4 GGT
4 SImp
4 GThug
4 SShell
4 Ichi
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phanta
4 Narco
2 Sphinx
1 iona
1 FKZ
1 Woodfall P
4 DR
4 Cabal
4 Probe
4 StreetWraith
4 Bridge
3 Urza's Bauble
SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Dryad Arbor
3 Reverent Silence
1 Elesh Norn
1 Blazing Archon
Pretty stock list, but not the SB. I desided on that bunch of cards because last tourney I lost 2 matches against Leyline, costing me top 8.
Quick report:
R1: 2-0 against Zoo
He was fast, but I was just 1 turn quicker in both games. (-Woodfall, + Archon G2)
R2: 0-2 against reanimator.
It took quit a while before he resolved an Elesh Norn in the first game. Elesh = GG for us, and the dredges were not that good. G2 he went for Elesh on T3 & it was over for me. (no boarding)
R3: 2-1 against mono R Burn.
G1 I was at 4 when I ate his brains. G2 I was burned to death on T4. G3 I put Leyline in game and that was it for him. Only 8 creatures in his deck are not enough to race us. (-3 Bauble, -1 Woodfall, +4 Leyline)
R4: 2-0 against BUGstill
I just raced him (not that difficult with almost no creatures on his side) with Ichi & Shadows in both games. (No boarding)
R5: 2-1 against WR Burn
G1 I was at 4, when my zombies ate him. G2 I resolved an Iona, only to see it dissapear through an PtE (big surprise for me, since I didn't see a White land G1) and following a fiery death for me. G3 Leyline was GG for him. (Boarding as R3)
R6: 2-0 against Bant
G1 I raced a Progenitus. G2 he was manascrewed and got run over by zombies.
R7: ID with Hivemind
And top 8 is locked!!
Quarters: 2-0 against Hivemind (opponent from R7)
Both games I destroyed him on T4 with DR on Woodfall (target an Island), sac Woodfall for Cabal (target an Island again), DR Iona on Blue, DR Sphinx, DR FKZ.
Semi: 2-0 against NORug
This is an easy MU, and I just raced him in both games.
Finals: Split against Tha Gate. At this time it already was 22hr and we were both pretty hungry and just split the prices.
It was an exciting day and i had lots of fun. manaless Dredge, I luv U :)
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
For people running 8 Baubles, I think you should replace them with Lion's Eye Diamond and Deep Analysis even if you don't run Serum Powder and Cephalid Coliseum, because drawing Lion's Eye Diamond in your hand increases the speed of your deck G1 by either auto-Dredging 8 cards or "slow rolling" by Dredging into Deep Analysis and then playing LED. LED is also the only card in Manaless Dredge, besides Serum Powder, that allows the deck to mulligan aggressively for speed vs. decks that'll outrace the Bauble lists and doesn't allow decks to force you to play game 2 and start with +1 cards in hand without the possibility you'll just explode out of the gate.
For the life of me, I can not understand why you would play with any less than 4 Phantasmagorian, because I would play with more if I could.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
For people running 8 Baubles, I think you should replace them with Lion's Eye Diamond and Deep Analysis even if you don't run Serum Powder and Cephalid Coliseum, because drawing Lion's Eye Diamond in your hand increases the speed of your deck G1 by either auto-Dredging 8 cards or "slow rolling" by Dredging into Deep Analysis and then playing LED. LED is also the only card in Manaless Dredge, besides Serum Powder, that allows the deck to mulligan aggressively for speed vs. decks that'll outrace the Bauble lists and doesn't allow decks to force you to play game 2 and start with +1 cards in hand without the possibility you'll just explode out of the gate.
For the life of me, I can not understand why you would play with any less than 4 Phantasmagorian, because I would play with more if I could.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
For the life of me, I can not understand why you would play with any less than 4 Phantasmagorian, because I would play with more if I could.
I agree with this. I was very happy with the 4 Phanta. If it is not in your opening hand, he serves as Ichi food. During the tournament it was unbelievable how many times I just dumped my hand with looping Phanta's. Now I know you only need 2 to do this, but it is that more easier to accomplish with 4.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
@AJfirecracker:
I've come to a conclusion, your meta is Reanimator and ANT. Why else would Leylines be so much everywhere that you'd have to next level (that package is NOT better than grinding vs hate in the form of 2 relic 2 surgical extraction, etc), and why else would you constantly talk about speed vs combo.
ANT is _nowhere_, literally nowhere. It is not something to concern yourself with and I would never ever have 8 slots in my board dedicated to a matchup I just might might might with a little bad luck face.
If you're going to talk race-matchups, talk speedzoo, zoo and Hive Mind, if anything.
PS. Leyline of Sanctity is a much more solid board card since it also negates more regular hate in the form of Crypts, Relics & Extirpate-effects.
@darkslingske:
I love it, finally someone explaining results, etc! Would be awesome to know what it meant when you raced or were "quicker by a turn", sometimes, with that package. You seem to be running a mix of the bauble and the Rauch-list? The FKZ is only mentioned later in the post, how often was the Sphinx/FKZ-package needed?
Just a note, though: You do know you can empty your hand (if it's 6 cards, granted) with just 1 Phanta? Stack the triggers.
@FF:
Talking about mulliganing better seems weird, I've lost probably 1 game in like 25-40 games by drawing no dredger in time.
@Everyone:
I'd love to see some actual explanations and possibly play-by-plays of the Bauble-list, especially with Sphinx/FKZ, where you "go off" on T2-3 as I've seen mentioned. Preferably not in goldfishing situations but vs an actual opponent.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
@ Berry:
I don't remember much from the matches. I didn't take notes during the games and as such only have my lifetotals to relate to. But I do remember that in all 9 rounds, I DR FKZ 5 times for the win. More often Sphinx just filled the GY and gave me enough Ichi's and Shadows to kill the opponent the following turn.
I don't like the 8 bauble list. It has a bit to much "do-nothing in the GY"-cards. So I started experimenting and decided on 3 Baubles as best for me. The Dakmor & Ghasts are nice in a meta full of blue control, but my meta has a rather big share of Zoo & burn, and they don't shine in those MU. Therefore my mix of the 2 lists.
About the 1 Phanta dump: I didn't know, so thanks!! (It never came up in all the testing & gaming. Maybe that's why I didn't know...)
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
berry
@AJfirecracker:
I've come to a conclusion, your meta is Reanimator and ANT. Why else would Leylines be so much everywhere that you'd have to next level (that package is NOT better than grinding vs hate in the form of 2 relic 2 surgical extraction, etc), and why else would you constantly talk about speed vs combo.
ANT is _nowhere_, literally nowhere. It is not something to concern yourself with and I would never ever have 8 slots in my board dedicated to a matchup I just might might might with a little bad luck face.
If you're going to talk race-matchups, talk speedzoo, zoo and Hive Mind, if anything.
PS. Leyline of Sanctity is a much more solid board card since it also negates more regular hate in the form of Crypts, Relics & Extirpate-effects.
@Everyone:
I'd love to see some actual explanations and possibly play-by-plays of the Bauble-list, especially with Sphinx/FKZ, where you "go off" on T2-3 as I've seen mentioned. Preferably not in goldfishing situations but vs an actual opponent.
Actually, Kevin asked for my anti-fast-combo list. That's why I posted an anti-fast-combo list. >_<
I do, however, believe that it's fairly trivial to tune manaless dredge to beat everything (including all graveyard hate) EXCEPT for fast combo, or it's trivial to tune the deck to beat everything (including fast combo) EXCEPT for some of the graveyard hate.
It's not an issue if Leylines are everywhere (although my next-level package has been working wonderfully against them and against a variety of hate options). The issue is what you're going to run in your sideboard. The deck is naturally superior (if fast enough) to just about everything besides combo and graveyard hate. Simply tweaking your speed or graveyard effect composition slightly is entirely a do-nothing sideboard, gaining you 1-2% in any relevant matchup and probably 0% in a variety of matchups. The anti-combo sideboard takes an unfavorable matchup(s) pre-board and wrenches it back in our favor. The Hexmage plan helps the combo matchup slightly, and helps against graveyard hate in a huge way. What sideboard plan do you have that gives better value than either of those?
As to speed being necessary: I slowed down my main-deck significantly when I first introduced the Hexmage plan to my sideboard. It proved extremely problematic, as I started dropping games against slow, controlling decks(!) that could suddenly afford to lose a creature or two, exiling my Bridges, and then just hold off the few recursive beaters I could throw together. (ex: Moat is live only if you reach the 4th turn) If I'd had the tools to have one big turn, I would have been stomping those decks, like almost every other dredge deck ever.
Exitirpate is not stopped by Leyline of Sanctity. Relic of Progenitus "exile all" ability is not stopped by Leyline of Sanctity. Neither is Hive Mind, Tendrils, or basically anything except Burn. (In the case of Tendrils, this is because they basically always have the ability to find a bounce spell once their combo is well and truly underway).
@Final Fortune: Almost all the benefits of running Lion's Eye Diamond can be had by running it in the sideboard, with basically none of the drawbacks.
Re: Phantasmagorian: If you don't play with Nether Shadow, you'll typically find that it's unnecessary. I like 2-3 as a nice little combo bump, but really I don't need them, and I certainly don't need the 2 Nether Shadow I typically run, I just don't have anything better to throw in that slot. When you use them as part of your recursive engine (i.e. for Nether Shadow) you'll likely find that 1-shot hate slows you down more than it should (i.e. your creatures come out a turn later) because you don't want to go below 7 cards. Saying you'd run more than 4 if you could completely agrees with my earlier statement that these decks really want to be running ~6, and are therefore less stable in that regard for little appreciable benefit.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ajfirecracker
@Final Fortune: Almost all the benefits of running Lion's Eye Diamond can be had by running it in the sideboard, with basically none of the drawbacks.
Re: Phantasmagorian: If you don't play with Nether Shadow, you'll typically find that it's unnecessary. I like 2-3 as a nice little combo bump, but really I don't need them, and I certainly don't need the 2 Nether Shadow I typically run, I just don't have anything better to throw in that slot. When you use them as part of your recursive engine (i.e. for Nether Shadow) you'll likely find that 1-shot hate slows you down more than it should (i.e. your creatures come out a turn later) because you don't want to go below 7 cards. Saying you'd run more than 4 if you could completely agrees with my earlier statement that these decks really want to be running ~6, and are therefore less stable in that regard for little appreciable benefit.
There's a big difference between running Lion's Eye Diamond MD and running Lion's Eye Diamond in the SB considering you a) can't play with Deep Analysis or Cephalid Coliseum without it and b) are only playing Lion's Eye Diamong post-board when it has the least amount of utility vs. hate.
I'm not disagreeing that Phantasmagorian is better in a Dredge deck with Nether Shadow, but saying Phantasmagorian has no appreciable benefit in a Dredge deck without Nether Shadow just makes me question whether or not you're properly playtesting cards. An uncounterable, Dredgable way of putting 9 cards into your graveyard off of 2 Phantasmagorian has an appreciable affect on any Dredge deck.
Phantasmagorian and LED/DA are just too good game 1 not to run.
@Berry
Don't confuse mulliganing better with being able to mulligan at all.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ajfirecracker
fast-combo sideboard
After some more testing, I've also come to the conclusion that Chancellor of the Annex is the best fit for that Leyline of Sanctity/Serum Powder slot.
However, I don't know what you'd board out for Mindbreak Trap (or whatever anti-combo slot nine-twelve would be). 'Gorian, Nether Shadow, and Shambling Shell are the eight cuts for Chancellor and LED (at least in my mind), but past that, you'd be cutting a card that would also be good against faster decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darklingske
tourney report
Congrats on the nice finish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
For the life of me, I can not understand why you would play with any less than 4 Phantasmagorian, because I would play with more if I could.
I agree that the optimal number of Phantasmagorian is above two (I think it's probably three in a Bauble list), but the reason why I've slowly been moving to the eight Bauble, two Nether Shadow, two Phantasmagorian list that aj developed is because it opens the sideboard up more. Whether it's due to my playstyle (I'll usually never cast a Bauble on turn two if I only have one dredger in my graveyard, and will never if it's Shambling Shell or Golgari Thug) or something else, I've found that Baubles six-eight's marginal speed goes down in comparison to one-five. However, because the speed of both lists is still pretty much the same, and because the eight Bauble list increases the quantity of good cards against Relic without having to waste sideboard slots, I think aj's list is objectively superior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
berry
@Everyone:
I'd love to see some actual explanations and possibly play-by-plays of the Bauble-list, especially with Sphinx/FKZ, where you "go off" on T2-3 as I've seen mentioned. Preferably not in goldfishing situations but vs an actual opponent.
I could definitely do a few goldfishes later today and post up the detailed results, and I suppose I could play ~five MWS matches with the deck, although I don't know if my patience will hold out that long. I'd like to point out that a turn two win isn't very common with this deck, it's usually turn three or four.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
My problem with Baubles compared to Street Wraith/Phyrexian Probe or Lion's Eye Diamond is that for "accelerators" they don't really accelerate the deck that much or that consistently when you have to draw them, play them after you discard a dredger and wait until your next turn to put cards into your graveyard, and while a Bauble may save you from wiping vs. Relic of Progenitus, we're talking about a 1x copy in most SBs and truth be told even with a Bauble in the graveyard it still buys a lot of time vs. the deck even if we don't scoop.
I really think Baubles are too slow and conservative game 1 vs. the field, and if you guys stop wasting your time trying to make your Storm combo match ups winnable (which they aren't even with a SB) you could just alternate between the most effective MDs between your 60 and 15 to take advantage of the ridiculousness of LED MD, which adds necessary speed vs. jank like Affinity and Elves, and grind thru' everything else. Cut the Baubles for just LED and DA and see what playing a ridiculously overpowered draw engine feels like for a few dozen goldfishes, holding Baubles until turn 3 plus is nothing compared to holding LED for that long.
I just feel like this entire thread has become a masterabotorary excersice in how to solve unsolvable problems instead of just maximizing the effectiveness of the MD and using the SB to absorb the impact of tertiary hate.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Hey guys,
i played Kevin's list at a tourney in Dülmen (Germany) and went 4-3.
It isn't really important. The important thing is, that another manaless dredger did the 2. out of 73.
It was nice to see it.
He played Sickening Shoal in mainboard. It's a really good card. And 3 Bauble's in sideboard.
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darklingske
Tourney Report
Congratz on the finish.
I noticed that I'm running the exact same list as you, except +1 U's Bauble, -1 FKZ
Though... I wonder if you saw any graveyard hate that day? Just asking, for I've stopped playing Dredge for now, because the people I play against at tourneys usually have between 4 and 10 graveyard hate cards in their boards. (And I am not exaggerating. The 10 is an exception, but 4-6 are the rule.)
Re: [Deck] Manaless Ichorid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KevinTrudeau
However, I don't know what you'd board out for Mindbreak Trap (or whatever anti-combo slot nine-twelve would be). 'Gorian, Nether Shadow, and Shambling Shell are the eight cuts for Chancellor and LED (at least in my mind), but past that, you'd be cutting a card that would also be good against faster decks.
I agree that the optimal number of Phantasmagorian is above two (I think it's probably three in a Bauble list), but the reason why I've slowly been moving to the eight Bauble, two Nether Shadow, two Phantasmagorian list that aj developed is because it opens the sideboard up more. Whether it's due to my playstyle (I'll usually never cast a Bauble on turn two if I only have one dredger in my graveyard, and will never if it's Shambling Shell or Golgari Thug) or something else, I've found that Baubles six-eight's marginal speed goes down in comparison to one-five. However, because the speed of both lists is still pretty much the same, and because the eight Bauble list increases the quantity of good cards against Relic without having to waste sideboard slots, I think aj's list is objectively superior.
Uhh... I had something I came up with... let me find it.
-1 Bridge from Below, -2 Mishra's Bauble, -2 Urza's Bauble, -2 Nether Shadow, -2 Ichorid, -2 Sphinx of Lost Truths, -1 Flame-Kin Zealot, +4 Mindbreak Trap, +4 Chancellor of the Annex, +4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Obviously the draw creatures are okay, but plopping Chancellor of the Annex into play is a higher priority (generally). FKZ gets worse without support, the Baubles are sort of slow, the Nether Shadow are sort of slow, Ichorid are okay but probably the weakest link of what's left. Maybe you want to cut the River Kelpie instead of the second Ichorid. Not sure.
@Not-Kevin-Trudeau: When I say I think Phantasmagorian are unnecessary, I've goldfished plenty and I've seen how good he is. The thing is, he's only really worth running as a 4-of when he generates creatures, as the 3rd and 4th you hit are total blanks. Due to the double-discard trick, I find that 1 is usually enough for a game whether or not I combo out. Running 2 gets me access to the loop as well as more frequently getting the double discard, so is clearly worth it (in general) but I don't feel like my list needs the third. I get the first one by the time I feel I need it, and the second is just a nice bonus. I could see running a third in a list that's very close to mine, but in mine in particular that seems like it's just not as much of a help as the alternatives for that slot.
@Kevin: Objectively superior! Sweet!
