[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

You still fail to recognise a few things:
I've never seen a list with 3 Therapies to start with. I've seen more with 4 Therapies, than with 3 Therapies though.
3 Ichorids main is the way to go in Flayer lists, for the reasons you mentioned. You don't have to play Ichorid in your board then, too.
Tormod's Crypt was imo never a relevant card against us and should not be used for reasoning, because a toddler can defeat a double crypt board with dredge.


Edit: I agree though, that it seems very danger of cool things-ish.
Still, it is a way safer and easier to assemble combo kill than FKZ, which in about 30 times I cast DR for it failed to kill 17 times. Not optimal. With Flayer my results are a bit better, fizzling the kill exactly zero times. Note both situations are when the DR SHOULD be lethal.

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I'm not failing to recognize the number of Ichorids and Cabal Therapies in Dread Return/Flayer of the Hatebound lists, they are exactly 2xIchorids and 3xCabal Therapies in tournament decklists. Even if we aren't discussing tournament decklists, if you're playing with 3xDread Return and 1xFlayer of the Hatebound then you're playing without 4x relevant cards in their stead. Whether it's an Ichorid, a Cabal Therapy, a Golgari Thug, a Careful Study etc. you are losing redundancy for DDD in favor of "flashy" combo kills.

I don't think you can dismiss Tormod's Crypt as an argument against Dread Return, saying a "Toddler" can beat a Tormod's Crypt isn't a justification. Tormod's Crypt disrupts Dread Return more than it disrupts Ichorids and the utility of the Dread Return package decreases more than any other package post-board vs specific hate cards.

Having less ichorids does weaken the DDD plan. Especially against a deck like RUG tempo(or is it Canadian thresh again?). Racing them with the DDD plan is tough when you have to waste a lot of turns finding ichorids.

The LED lists with the added bonus of faithless looting are particulary good at fighting through a counterwall. This might explain the success of these 'flashy' kill lists with flayer.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Having less ichorids does weaken the DDD plan

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This. Ichorid can also overturn the race in our favor: if they swing, you swing back with Ichorid and block with tokens; otherwise, you store up a bunch of zombies and prepare for the alpha strike.

P.S. - Many guys are packing 2x Grafdigger's Cage + 3x Surgical Extraction as their main hate choice, here: do you consider boarding in 6 answers just for two Cages (4x Chain of Vapor/4x Nature's Claim + 2x Ingot Chewer) a bad plan? It seems a bit excessive.

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Originally Posted by Digital Devil

This. Ichorid can also overturn the race in our favor: if they swing, you swing back with Ichorid and block with tokens; otherwise, you store up a bunch of zombies and prepare for the alpha strike.

P.S. - Many guys are packing 2x Grafdigger's Cage + 3x Surgical Extraction as their main hate choice, here: do you consider boarding in 6 answers just for two Cages (4x Chain of Vapor/4x Nature's Claim + 2x Ingot Chewer) a bad plan? It seems a bit excessive.

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Provided I knew the number of Cages in advance as 2x, I wouldn't bother SBing against it. If they showed me a Cage while they were SBing, I'd probably bring in 4xNature's Claim and maybe 1xAncient Grudge.

Is there any consensus yet on Flayer vs Sun Titan? The former makes for a guaranteed kill, but is more taxing; the latter virtually flips your deck over. Is it always a matchup call? Is it worth it to give your opponents' an extra turn?

Also, this might be a dumb question, but why Sun Titan over Eternal Witness? edit: is it for the possibility of double Coliseum activations when you already played a land for the turn?

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

Is there any consensus yet on Flayer vs Sun Titan? The former makes for a guaranteed kill, but is more taxing; the latter virtually flips your deck over. Is it always a matchup call? Is it worth it to give your opponents' an extra turn?

Also, this might be a dumb question, but why Sun Titan over Eternal Witness?

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You're talking about cards that are playing two different roles. The better comparison is Flayer or FKZ and Sun Titan or Sphinx of lost truths.

Titan and Sphinx are enablers, allowing you to flip your deck over more consistently. Sphinx lets you draw more, Titan lets you do more. The choice is basically, am I all in on combo, or do I want more versatility?

As far as Flayer vs FKZ, I'm leaning Flayer. He allows you to win with less resources. One bridge and 3 narcs? Win w/flayer, lose w/FKZ. 2 narc 2 bridge? same results. The downside of flayer is you have to play more DR with him, and you need 2 DR in the yard to win. However, I'm thinking this is a small price to pay for the reach he can give you.

The Titan is played over witness because you'd rather bring back permanents to play than spells to hand. there is no guarantee you will have the land to cast breakthrough when you DR witness.


Side note, thanks for the updated primer Hollywood! It was severely needed.

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Originally Posted by dredgekid

You're talking about cards that are playing two different roles. The better comparison is Flayer or FKZ and Sun Titan or Sphinx of lost truths.

Titan and Sphinx are enablers, allowing you to flip your deck over more consistently. Sphinx lets you draw more, Titan lets you do more. The choice is basically, am I all in on combo, or do I want more versatility?

As far as Flayer vs FKZ, I'm leaning Flayer. He allows you to win with less resources. One bridge and 3 narcs? Win w/flayer, lose w/FKZ. 2 narc 2 bridge? same results. The downside of flayer is you have to play more DR with him, and you need 2 DR in the yard to win. However, I'm thinking this is a small price to pay for the reach he can give you.

The Titan is played over witness because you'd rather bring back permanents to play than spells to hand. there is no guarantee you will have the land to cast breakthrough when you DR witness.


Side note, thanks for the updated primer Hollywood! It was severely needed.

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Right, understood.

The only reason I bring up the two is because most lists I see on here aren't willing to give the deck more than one MD DR target - so do you go for more busted enabling or do you go for the throat? Does that part come down to preference?

Thanks for the tidbit on Sun Titan. That was exactly the reason I was asking - LED is still a prime target for both, but Witness gives you access to Breakthrough. You might not always have the mana to play it, but at least she gives you that option. And both lands/LED, the two things you will be returning with Sun Titan, can also be grabbed by her and played for free. She's also hard-castable (not really a true selling point, but you know how weird those G2s and G3s can get).

Anyone see the Dredge player on camera board into Painter's Stone and combo out? It was pretty funny.

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Originally Posted by 264505

Anyone see the Dredge player on camera board into Painter's Stone and combo out? It was pretty funny.

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Yeah, that was pretty hilarious. I'm interested in seeing that guy's list, it seemed like he was running a lot of land.

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Originally Posted by woremak

Yeah, that was pretty hilarious. I'm interested in seeing that guy's list, it seemed like he was running a lot of land.

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I think he top 16ed so his list should be up a bit later. I think JVL said he had 16 lands main.

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Originally Posted by 264505

I think he top 16ed so his list should be up a bit later. I think JVL said he had 16 lands main.

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Literally did a double take when the announcers said that. Was rolling when he EOT enlightened tutored for the stone. his opponent had to be on permatilt.

Here's Daniel Rude's list from SCGDM

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=45371

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Originally Posted by Yesmilord

Right, understood.

The only reason I bring up the two is because most lists I see on here aren't willing to give the deck more than one MD DR target - so do you go for more busted enabling or do you go for the throat? Does that part come down to preference?

Thanks for the tidbit on Sun Titan. That was exactly the reason I was asking - LED is still a prime target for both, but Witness gives you access to Breakthrough. You might not always have the mana to play it, but at least she gives you that option. And both lands/LED, the two things you will be returning with Sun Titan, can also be grabbed by her and played for free. She's also hard-castable (not really a true selling point, but you know how weird those G2s and G3s can get).

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The problem with witness is it is forcing us to cast things rather than giving us free things. there's no guarantee we can actually cast the breakthrough (and at that point, we really won't need to) Titan can also be a finisher in a pinch.

I think it depends on whether you are playing quad or combo. obviously in quad you don't play any targets (if you are even playing DR). Combo, I firmly believe, should be playing a draw-enabling DR target. I prefer sphinx, simply because it digs deeper than titan does and if I'm playing combo, I'm going for that combo kill. Titan is probably a bit better with zealot because you need so many more resources to win with zealot, and titan can act as another kill card as well as an enabler. I think, however, sphinx is 100% superior to titan in the flayer build, since you can afford to exhaust more resources to flip your deck over and still be able to combo out and win.

Griselbrand

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink
Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.
7/7

What do you think about this?
I think draw 7 cards is a bit too much, like win more. But sounds interesting.

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Griselbrand

Legendary Creature - Demon
Flying, lifelink
Pay 7 life: Draw seven cards.
7/7

What do you think about this?
I think draw 7 cards is a bit too much, like win more. But sounds interesting.

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It's a Sphinx of Lost Truths on steroids for your FKZ package but I think the draw 7 is too much. Especially after a resolved draw spell or two (c/o Faithless Looting).

Well, it's another big dude we don't need.

That's pretty solid, the effect may be overkill but you're getting a 7/7 evasive threat out of the deal compared to Cephalid Sage etc.

It looks to me that after getting Griselbrand in play, you'll pretty much have your entire deck in the graveyard, and you'll have access to ALL the possible plays that can be done with whatever is in your deck. It seems to me that this is the first Dread Return target that can pretty much guarantee that we'll have access to our entire deck (minus a few cards left in the deck that should keep you alive) as soon as it gets into play (in comparison, Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur required us to reach the End Step to be able to access the entire deck).

Having said that, given the presence of Cabal Therapy in our deck and everything else that we use to win, it will be very unlikely for our opponents to be able to recover from this projected board and hand position.

Is this creature a win-more card? Is it a better/worse creature than the ones that we've already been using? These arguments can go either way for now. I do know, though, that Griselbrand has the distinction that I've noted above, and it's a very powerful distinction.

Cheers,
jares

Uh, holy fuck, you can resolve the draw trigger twice on the same turn ... I'd say that's definitely your deck in the yard.

Yes, that's why i posted it.
I saw it today in the morning at facebook and said: awesome!
7 life is a bit much in some match-ups, but you just win the game with it. ( if you dont fizzle in finding a Dredger)
So, here is the picture in addition to the written stuff above:
http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...ed-Spoiler.jpg