What do you mean by "It's a natural draw anyway" ??Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
You're underlining the fact i can't tutor it and need to topdeck it ?
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What do you mean by "It's a natural draw anyway" ??Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
You're underlining the fact i can't tutor it and need to topdeck it ?
Yeah. AEthersnipe can be Fierce Empathed for, whereas you need to naturally draw/cantrip into Maga. AEthersnipe also serve a lot utility around protecting the combo and ensuring it can go off.Quote:
Originally Posted by grokh
Theoretically, you can Empath into Rune-Scarred Demon and then pull whatever body you want out of the library, though that's slightly more mana intensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
And yet, if you're going infinite (and even when it's not, you can still follow the Gris chain to cast Rune, then use Rune to cast Gris).Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Maga can be tutored with drift of phantasm. and the transmute cost can be played with food chain mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
Unfortunately Transmute is an activated ability and thus cannot be used with Food Chain mana. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by mordraid
Hi,
I just found a creature with very good potential for the deck i think :
Fathom seer
It's a Gush-creature !
You play it with Morph as a 2/2 for :3:, then it's like a Gush for turning it face up.
You have to remember that Morph is a static ability, it's not affected by Stifle -> He can't Stifle the bounce 2 lands ability
(The triggered ability of drawing 2 cards can be Stifled, but it's the same about all cantrip creatures in our deck)
It allows us some nice plays like :
- avoid a Wasteland on a Tropical island plus drawing 2 cards for :0:
- draw 2 cards for :0: for getting a counterspell
- take 2 manas from 2 Islands, then put an Island bounced into play, :3: + 2 cards drawn for :0:
- if blocked at 3 lands for casting a Misthollow griffin, you can take 2 manas from 2 Islands, bounce them then putting an Island into play for 1 more mana + your 3rd mana from 3rd land -> 4 manas with 3 lands -> Griffin FTW
- respond to a Krosan grip on Food chain by turning it faced up (morph is a static ability, can go in resp to Split second), drawing another Food chain for next turn
- respond to a spell by bouncing 2 Islands, then up to 3 manas opened (2 from bounced islands + 1 from island back in play), at least 1 mana open if the 2 Islands where tapped, then Brainstorm to see up to 5 cards (2 from Fathom + 3 from Brainstorm)
And the more useful, he's a creature, you can draw 2 cards for :0: during the Food chain combo !
What do you think of it, isn't a Gush-creature not very sexy in our deck ?
It's an interesting card to think about, but it seems that Mulldrifter is simply better in most cases... hm. The Gushability of returning and brainstorming away lands is fun, though.
I've been thinking about Gilded Drake and Sower of Temptation.
Anyone know if Food Chain can take advantage of the Gilded Drake trigger? Or does it invalidate the exchange?
Both creatures must be in play for the exchange to occur. You can always benefit from getting a creature with higher cmc than Drake, though.
Ah, I see the Drake's errata:
"When Gilded Drake enters the battlefield, exchange control of Gilded Drake and up to one target creature an opponent controls. If you don't make an exchange, sacrifice Gilded Drake. This ability can't be countered except by spells and abilities. (This effect lasts indefinitely.)"
Playing Drake then bouncing the Drake back to our own hand seems cute, though. AEthersnipe and Jace. :)
A Mulldrifter will never allow you to :Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
- avoid a Wasteland on your duals
- draw in response to something
You can't have a Mulldrifter on board without Food chain, i just think it's dumb to pay :3: just to draw 2 cards and finally have nothing on my board. Fathom seer will cost you :3: too but stay on the board, able to defend, if he blocks a 2/2 creature you can morph it for him to become 1/3 and survive.
If no Food chain on board you'll use a Mulldrifter for trying to get a Food chain in your top 2 cards. You can use Fathom seer ability for plenty other situations i've just described, and if you do you still have a 1/3 for block !
A Mulldrifter is better in only one case : the case you got Food chain on board and you're comboing ftw. Otherwise, i always prefer having a 2/2 on the board and have drawn 2 cards rather than have nothing on board and have drawn 2 cards, don't you ?
Fathom seer has no Food chain-dependency, he's not a dead card without it
I don't think Fathom seer must replace Mulldrifter, he can't, he just can enter in our cantrip creatures package
I'm not sure what I would replace in order to put in Fathom Seer. I play six basics aswell and only 4 duals so I'm not overly fretting over Wastelands. Not that they can't mess me up something aweful. Flipping him during your opponents turn in order to emergency block seems disadvantageous as you can only use the islands you return for to cast instants and you will be behind with two land drops next turn.
Gush is a broken card but it's not a card that goes into to any deck and it isn't broken because you get to save your islands from Wastelands or even get one extra mana late in the game. It's broken when used as a combo piece and I can't see it fitting in to our particular combo engine. Therefor, a creature that is "Gush on a stick" seems like a stretch.
With that said, nothing really makes up for trial and error and I would love to hear how it plays Grokh :)
You can use only instants but you can take :u: :u: in response to the ability, you can cast Spell pierce or Brainstorm in our decklists.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
You'll be behind with 2 lands drops ? Not all the time, you got Birds of paradise and Noble hierarch in your list, they count as lands too.
And be aware you'll use it's ability in instant only if needed ! For example to counter a spell you really don't want to see, or protect a dual. If you use it for countering a counterspell on your Food chain and find a counterspell, you'll just have won !
So, yesterday I went to my local store's weekly legacy tournament to try and follow up on last weeks fantastic 5-1 result. There were only 22 players this week so we only played 5 rounds instead of 6. I'm happy to report that the Food Chain deck (as people in the store seem to have dubbed it) went 4-1.
Lessons learned: I had found space for 2 Vendilion Clique and they seemed awesome. Really happy with how they worked. Running 2 Carpet of Flowers in SB seems quite good (credit to Wildchild), especially against RUG delver.
Some people tend to not take our deck very seriously. They like to go on about how a 3-card combo deck can't continually perform. They are usually the same people that only ever go online to copy what ever deck is getting the most top-8s this month. I get where they're coming from, but I have had very good experiences lately with the decklist I'm running and I feel like one of the decks strenghts is that it can fall back on a decent non-combo strategy with exalted creatures that can't be Swords to Plowshares'd and now too with Vendilion Clique. Plus, Food Chain + any number of griffins = a very good board state for us so in that way it's almost a 2½-card combo :p I don't know, probably the critics are right that this deck will struggle to ever become mainstream but I love playing it.
The matches:
Vs. G/W Stoneforge deck (WON 2-0):
This was a little bit of a strange deck and didn't feel like a proper win tbh. His deck was without both duals and fetches and seemed very much like a budget deck that suffered from this. Went off quickly in both games.
Vs Shardless BUG (WON 2-1):
This was the same deck I had lost to 1-2 last week. And again it was a very close round. I won the first game going off in round 4 or 5 getting very nice top deck draws (Pondering into a Force of Will and a Food Chain while holding Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and a Misthollow Griffin with 4 mana on the board). Lost the second game after having mulled to 5. Won a very close third game without going off, but by having 3 griffins out against a very big goyf. Double Submerge got it for me in the end.
Vs UR delver (WON 2-1):
Combo'd off in game 1 no problem. Game 2 his clock was just too fast with guides and a lavamancer plus good counter magic securing him a win. Game 3 was closer than both previous games but I won in the end. This seems like a match up that really could go either way. Did not feel comfortable.
Vs Death & Taxes (LOST 1-2):
This, in general, is a tough match up due to a strong sideboard that can pack both Phyrexian Revoker and Ethersworn Canonist. This guy even ran Phyrexian Revoker in his mainboard. I felt really hard done by in game 1. I kept a hand with no counter magic. He won the coin toss. He goes: plains -> Mother of Runes and passes the turn. I go forest -> Noble Hierarch and pass the turn. He then goes, 2nd plains -> Phyrexian Revoker naming Food Chain... I was a little stunned. From my opening turn he would have had NO inclination what he was up against, but it is a small room and someone must have told him or he could have peaked over my shoulder during an earlier round. Hard to really feel like he did anything wrong, but still felt a little douchie. I lost that game and went on to win game 2 after he had mulled to 5. I went off during game 2. Game 3 I lost to him getting 2 Canonists on the board.
Vs RUG delver (WON 2-0):
This was a fun round. Especially because the guy (who is a really nice guy) was going on and on during game 2 about how embarrased he would be to lose to Food Chain!! In the end I won game 1 quickly by going off in round 4 or 5. Game 2 was a bit strange and he will be feeling hard done by. After 5 or 6 rounds he had 1 flipped delver on the board and was taking me down pretty quickly. I had a Food Chain on the board but no Griffin and no win card in hand. I passed the turn being at 10 or 11 life. He casts another Delver of Secrets and attacks. I, in turn, Submerge his flipped delver, ensuring that he won't flip the other on his next turn. Next turn he plays his 2nd Delver and swings for 1. For the next 5 or so turns he doesn't see a sorcery or instant. I see 3 lands and finally a Griffin. He was at 10 life and I had 2 hierarchs in play so my griffin could swing for 5. During his next 2 turns he continued to not see a sorcery or instant. Needless to say he wasn't very happy with his luck.
Decklist:
Creatures:
3x Misthollow Griffin
3x Noble Hierarch
2x Birds of Paradise
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Mulldrifter
2x Wall of Blossoms
2x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Griselbrand
1x Maga, traitor to Mortals
Enchantments:
4x Food Chain
2x Sylvan Library
Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
2x Spell Pierce
2x Manipulate Fate
Planeswalkers:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Submerge
2x Carpet of Flowers
2x Pithing Needle
3x Moment's Peace
1x Krosan Grip
1x Xantid Swarm
Thanks for the writeup nevilshute! As I mentioned in my article, the hardest part of the deck seems to be convincing others it's actually viable. :) Fortunately, it's incredibly fun.
At GenCon's Legacy Champs (which I went 2-2-drop in, losing to consecutive T2 Show & Tells -> Omniscience, even when I had a Gris!, and a very good Maverick player), I sat next to someone who said "Oh! You're the Food Chain deck. Sweet." That made me feel pretty good, even if they found out about it through disgruntled murmurs of how bad it is... haha.
But it's really fun to play and can actually win games. It's the perfect level of fringe-pet.
Onto your deck. How do you like the Pierces main? I have been bouncing between them and Dazes and can't decide. Also -- what's up with the 3/2 split with Hierarch/Birds?
I still think you should drop the Maga. :) She feels really out of place... how many times did you use her? Maybe exchange for another Empath, Mulldrifter or Wall.
And congrats! I'll likely be playing Thursday and bringing it to the SCG Minneapolis event this weekend.
Heya metamet. It's funny you should mention the Spell Pierces as they are the card in the deck I am least certain of. I prefer them to Daze though because a) running Daze I feel I need at least 3 to have a decent chance of getting one on my opening hand which is when you want them and b) because when testing with Daze I regularily found myself struggling by being set back a turn. With that said, I don't really feel the Spell Pierces fit in very well. I seldom feel like leaving 1 mana open during early turns due to mana dorks/Ponders. Not sure what to do to be honest. 4x Force of Will alone seems too little counter magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet
The 3/2 split between birds and hierarchs is simply due to me not owning the 4th hierarch. Once I get her, it will be 4/1.
Maga... meh... I think you're right. A third Empath might be the way to go. I will say this though: had Maga had CMC6< so that it was tutorable with empath it would be a guarenteed singleton alongside Emrakul.
Do you think this has a chance of becoming "a real deck" so to speak? :)
If you're struggling with the Pierces because you're facing creatures, then Daze is pretty much the only one that's relevant. If it's because you need to counter nonpermanent spells, then there's always Disrupt and Divert (the latter using the Misdirection trick).Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
It's hard to really analyze though. Against Maverick that plays Pridemages and Thalia maindeck and can board in Canonist then Spell Pierce is really of no use, but Daze sucks there too for the most part because they can ramp into a lot of mana early on. Thought briefly about Spell Snare there but that seems to have just as many limitations in other match ups. Problem is, I don't feel like dedicating space in my SB for situational counter magic. I'm leaning towards either cutting counter spell 5 and 6 altogether or just sticking with pierces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I think this is the list I am going to roll with next:
Creatures:
2x Misthollow Griffin
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Birds of Paradise
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Mulldrifter
2x Wall of Blossoms
3x Fierce Empath
1x Aethersnipe
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Griselbrand
Enchantments:
4x Food Chain
1x Sylvan Library
Planeswalkers:
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Spells:
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Daze
3x Manipulate Fate
Sideboard:
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Submerge
2x Pithing Needle
3x Spell Pierce
2x Tarmogoyf
2x Carpet of Flowers
1x Krosan Grip
I realize that 3 Griffin vs 2 Griffin on board is a one turn clock difference, separated by a mere two points (likely mitigated by opponents' fetches):
6 vs 9
12 vs 18
18 vs 27
24 vs 36
Not sure if this is a good idea yet... I am going to go down to two Griffins and see how it goes, keeping the Manipulate Fates at 3. Might try 2 Fates and 3 Griffins, however.
Will be very interested to hear how you do with 2x Griffin. I've had good experiences running a list very similar to yours but always with 2x fate 3x griffin. I'd be very hesitant to cut it down to 2 griffins myself, but like I said, looking forward to hearing how you do :)Quote:
Originally Posted by metamet