The Long Term future of this format...

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Originally Posted by WorstBandNameEver

I'm thinking that WOTC will want to focus their efforts. They could do a legacy Masters set, but some of the best cards can't be reprinted. I would be be surprised if they start to put all their eggs in the modern basket as they know they can easily support the format going forward and for the foreseeable future. Don't get me wrong, I would love more masters sets, even if my cards go down in vallue some. I would love to play more modern and more legacy.

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I'd like to see the obsession with fucking foils as the avenue for reprints just die. It doesn't impact the price for the average player much at all. Just put them in these stupid duel decks, or commander decks. 75% of the people that play don't play foils, don't want them, or are indifferent but don't have enough to make a deck not marked.

Judge foiling karakas, a) looks like shit b) means those that don't play foils can't play the one marked karakas c) doesn't drive the price down much

Discounting the reserved list there are a ton of cards that could put a big dent in the cost of legacy / vintage

- Force of Will
- Wasteland
- Imperial Recruiter
- Mana Drain
- Ancient Tomb
- Tarmogoyf
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Swords of Various Things
- Jitte
- Port
- Every relevant Goblin ever printed
- Thoughtseize
- Clique
- Show and Tell
- Sneak Attack

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Originally Posted by alderon666

When SCG started Legacy wasn't all that popular. I might be wrong here but I think I remember number like 400 players for T2 and 120 for Legacy back then.

And even now, I have the impression that the T2 on Saturday always has about double the number of players than Legacy has on Sunday. Does anyone has the actual number for the latest SCG events?

If SCG decides to invest in Modern, people will play it. T2 players borrow Legacy decks and play on Sunday, only to get slaughtered because they don't know the format. Modern is much closer to T2 than to Legacy, not having to deal with Force of Will, turn 2 Emrakul and 15 year old cards sounds like an incentive for new players.

Yeah, people might be skeptical. But then they watch a Modern PT, like the one going on right now. And see the pros playing Modern, coming up with some crazy new decks. I for one was very excited when someone told me Finkel was playing some Epic Experiment deck, can't wait to see that list.

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When SCG announced that through March of 2013, they'd be doing Legacy on Day 2, I was surprised. Legacy turnouts have always been teetering and I've always thought a switch to Modern would be more profitable for them. Then, they announced they were increasing the prize support for Legacy to $10,000 for each stop. At 40$ an entry fee, they'd need 250 people to break even in terms of entry fees taken in, and prize money given out. (I understand that SCG makes money by being the only vendor there, etc, etc, but they also have to rent the venue, pay staff, give out those free perks for signing up, and do travel costs. So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for me to say, they'd prefer to have 250+ at each tournament.)

I ran the numbers for you for the SCG tournaments from the beginning of August for you.

Oct 13-14 SCG Providence Standard 351 Legacy 175
Oct 6-7 SCG Cincinnati Standard 408 Legacy 205
Sept 21-23 SCG Atlanta (Invitational) Standard 527 Legacy 350
Sept 15-16 SCG Los Angeles Standard 396 Legacy 235
Sept 8-9 SCG Portland Standard 246 Legacy 128
Sept 1-2 SCG Minneapolis Standard 394 Legacy 238
Aug 25-26 SCG Denver Standard 322 Legacy 142
Aug 11-12 SCG Kansas City Standard 396 Legacy 209
Aug 4-5 SCG Washington DC Standard 629 Legacy 347

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Imperial Recruiter

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Why this card hasn't seen a functional reprint, I will never know.

56/60 cards in mono-red Painter comes to roughly $250-275 USD. 4x Recruiter... $1400.

EDIT:
For gods sake it is cheaper to build U/R painter with:
4x Show and Tell = ~$220
4x Volcanic Island = ~ $400
4x Force of Will = ~ $220
4x Wasteland = ~ $160
4x Scalding Tarn = ~ $70
3x Vendilion Clique = ~ $100
4x Misty Rainforest = ~ $70
4x Emrakul = ~ $80

It is cheaper to build fucking Show and Tell AND Painter's Servant than it is to build Mono-red Painter's Servant.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

Why this card hasn't seen a functional reprint, I will never know.

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Its ability seems more White than Red nowadays. I think a bigger question is why Grim Tutor has never seen a reprint, because it doesn't even have that excuse (if anything, it's more in Black than Diabolic Tutor is). The card could probably go into a Standard set, quite frankly.

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Originally Posted by workingdude

When SCG announced that through March of 2013, they'd be doing Legacy on Day 2, I was surprised. Legacy turnouts have always been teetering and I've always thought a switch to Modern would be more profitable for them. Then, they announced they were increasing the prize support for Legacy to $10,000 for each stop. At 40$ an entry fee, they'd need 250 people to break even in terms of entry fees taken in, and prize money given out. (I understand that SCG makes money by being the only vendor there, etc, etc, but they also have to rent the venue, pay staff, give out those free perks for signing up, and do travel costs. So, I don't think it's too much of a stretch for me to say, they'd prefer to have 250+ at each tournament.)

I ran the numbers for you for the SCG tournaments from the beginning of August for you.

Oct 13-14 SCG Providence Standard 351 Legacy 175
Oct 6-7 SCG Cincinnati Standard 408 Legacy 205
Sept 21-23 SCG Atlanta (Invitational) Standard 527 Legacy 350
Sept 15-16 SCG Los Angeles Standard 396 Legacy 235
Sept 8-9 SCG Portland Standard 246 Legacy 128
Sept 1-2 SCG Minneapolis Standard 394 Legacy 238
Aug 25-26 SCG Denver Standard 322 Legacy 142
Aug 11-12 SCG Kansas City Standard 396 Legacy 209
Aug 4-5 SCG Washington DC Standard 629 Legacy 347

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So yeah, the Legacy attendence number hovers about 50% to 55% of the Standand tournament. I sincerly think if they invested more in Modern, they could have better numbers.

As I see it, you can give any amount of incentive for T2 players to start playing Legacy. When they see how much it costs to buy into the format, they are just running away.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Eve...x/welcome#2013

I'm afraid the writing is on the wall for WotC's support of Legacy. Between now and August 2013, there are seven (7) Modern constructed GPs and one (1) Modern limited GP. During that same time span, there are two (2) Legacy constructed GPs.

Wizards will continue to support Modern in favor of Legacy until Legacy is completely gone from the GP circuit.

It is inevitable that SCG will follow suit and make Modern the format of Day 2 of their Open series in the near future. Perhaps alternating Legacy/Modern at first, until the final switch to Modern.

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Originally Posted by PhantomLotus

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Eve...x/welcome#2013

I'm afraid the writing is on the wall for WotC's support of Legacy. Between now and August 2013, there are seven (7) Modern constructed GPs and one (1) Modern limited GP. During that same time span, there are two (2) Legacy constructed GPs.

Wizards will continue to support Modern in favor of Legacy until Legacy is completely gone from the GP circuit.

It is inevitable that SCG will follow suit and make Modern the format of Day 2 of their Open series in the near future. Perhaps alternating Legacy/Modern at first, until the final switch to Modern.

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The number of Legacy Grand Prix has not gone down lately in the recent couple of years.
Modern grand prix's are replacing others not Legacy.

Starcitygames may ditch the Legacy open eventually, but not for the reason you mentioned. Your logic is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Mr.C

Funny, I remember the same kind of discussion when Legacy was created, back when I was playing Vintage. How Vintage would never die, etc. Granted, Vintage isn't dead, its just in a vegetative state. Zombie-like.

Legacy will go the same route, unfortunately.

It won't destroy the value of Duals and stuff completely, because EDH.

However, when Legacy is dropped by SCG... I hope I have sold all my Legacy stuff by then. It's gonna be the reverse of the bitching about prices thread.

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Legacy isn't going anywhere. The format has thrived and is thriving because of how vastly deep the card-pool is and the wide variety of decks capable of being played. That's a very appealing concept to me.

This is a grown man's format. Legacy, someday, will probably evolve into something else - much like its predecessor did. However, to assume the concept of Legacy (basically a "freestyle" format where you can use everything from Alpha to "Future Set X") is a bit far-fetched. It's currently in a very healthy state, and to be honest if I'm investing time and money into this game, I'm not doing it to win a bunch of cards that will ultimately never hold their value as opposed to a majority of cards pre-dating 8th Edition that are a legitimate investment.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Legacy isn't going anywhere. The format has thrived and is thriving because of how vastly deep the card-pool is and the wide variety of decks capable of being played. That's a very appealing concept to me.

This is a grown man's format. Legacy, someday, will probably evolve into something else - much like its predecessor did. However, to assume the concept of Legacy (basically a "freestyle" format where you can use everything from Alpha to "Future Set X") is a bit far-fetched. It's currently in a very healthy state, and to be honest if I'm investing time and money into this game, I'm not doing it to win a bunch of cards that will ultimately never hold their value as opposed to a majority of cards pre-dating 8th Edition that are a legitimate investment.

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- I'm not sure which is more amusing: the denial about Legacy's slow death over the course of the next 3-5 years (give or take a year) just because of the fallacy that because it's healthy now it will be healthy later, or the fact that only "grown up men" play Legacy and the implication that playing other formats is not "manly" enough even though all the formats are still Magic: The Gathering cards, which could be argued is still a kids card game.

:laugh:

Real men play team Rochester.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- I'm not sure which is more amusing: the denial about Legacy's slow death over the course of the next 3-5 years (give or take a year) just because of the fallacy that because it's healthy now it will be healthy later, or the fact that only "grown up men" play Legacy and the implication that playing other formats is not "manly" enough even though all the formats are still Magic: The Gathering cards, which could be argued is still a kids card game.

:laugh:

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Not that I agree with Hollywood, but when I read his post my thought process was that Legacy was a Man's game due to price/card availability not age.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

- I'm not sure which is more amusing: the denial about Legacy's slow death over the course of the next 3-5 years (give or take a year) just because of the fallacy that because it's healthy now it will be healthy later, or the fact that only "grown up men" play Legacy and the implication that playing other formats is not "manly" enough even though all the formats are still Magic: The Gathering cards, which could be argued is still a kids card game.

:laugh:

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I stand by my comment 100%. That's all from me. I don't even care.

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

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I like this idea.

I think more people playing magic = more people playing legacy.

@ the people who must be so vocal about legacy dying- can you shut up about it? Do you want a gold star for being right? If we agree with you will it cool your rage? If you're so scared of losing money on your cards can you just sell them quietly? Can you please leave and never come back?

I'm pretty sure no one who enjoys playing legacy can possibly get anything from this kind of conversation.

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Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

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This is how the game is meant to be played.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I play Legacy because it's the only format where I'm allowed to shuffle with my beard while I pack my pipe.

Actually new idea: Wizards lifts the ban on alcoholic beverages at Legacy events. It becomes the format played after the FNM crowd has gone to bed and the shades have been drawn. Politicians borrow Forces so they can mingle with power players and social elite. Star City cultivates a team of nationally-renowned bartenders, moves the Legacy start time to Friday night at 8pm, black tie required.

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As long as we are allowed to use Chimney Imps as scotch-glass coasters, I'm game.

As long as you actually meant Chimney Pimps, then yes.

-Matt

This is mostly in response to the announcement of Modern Masters. In the short term, this helps Legacy as the barrier to entry drops a substantial amount if people do not have to pay absurd prices for some of the format staples. The three primary things that hamper Legacy's growth as a format are: card availability, price, and support from Wizards of the Coast. This announcement alleviates two of those issues (card availability and price) even if it doesn't solve those issues entirely.

Support from WotC is the most influential factor hampering Legacy because it in many ways controls the other two factors. It has been made clear on numerous occasions that WotC is not focusing on supporting Legacy mostly due to the Reserved List making support impossible (the real culprit is the inability to reprint the dual lands). Therefore long term, Modern Masters will hurt Legacy. I would guess that some people play Legacy because of the particular cards and strategies (I enjoy casting Doomsday, Force of Will and Brainstorm etc). However, I believe a large reason people enjoy Legacy is because once cards are acquired, the cards maintain value and competitiveness over time. For example, if I really enjoy playing Combo then I can invest in the initial deck and make minor purchases as new cards come out which help the deck. For me, this is much more appealing than Standard where I have to worry every few set releases about my $40 Bonefire of the Damned becoming a $5 Mythic when it rotates. Modern opens up an avenue for current players that would like an alternative to Standard but do not want to drop the cash for Legacy cards.

After Gatecrash is released, one could feasibly purchase a playset of all the shocklands for between $350 - $500. With the advent of Modern Masters rereleasing the other expensive cards in the format, one could conceivably own most of the Modern staples for $1,200 which is just a bit more than owning playsets of the four blue dual lands! That model will be much more appealing to people over the next few years given the relative price to play eternal Magic. It hasn't happened yet, but my suspicion is that the release of Return to Ravnica and Modern Masters will cause a ground swell of support for Modern. This support will reach a tipping point (probably in the next 12 - 18 months), at which time Modern overtakes Legacy as the dominate eternal format.

As has been mentioned before, the most noticeable event will be when SCG switches the day two event to Modern. The SCG switch is critical for two reasons. First, it will be in part due to the popularity and demand for Modern events. Second and most importantly, it will signal that Modern is more profitable than Legacy. SCG didn't support Legacy events because there was an outpouring of community support for circuit Legacy events. Make no mistake, SCG endorses Legacy because it is a cash cow; they will pay absurd buy prices because they can flip the cards at a good margin fairly quickly. This is important because in many ways, the "Modern Age" of Legacy is due in large part to SCG's ability to make money off the format. When Modern becomes popular enough that SCG can make more money running Modern events than Legacy, it will switch the day two event.

I don't think Legacy will ever "die" but it will go the way of Vintage over the next few years. It will become a regional format with dedicated pockets of support (at least State side). Legacy, unfortunately, will never be more popular than it is right now. Therefore, I'm moving to the EU to play Legacy and Vintage :-P

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Originally Posted by alderon666

As I see it, you can give any amount of incentive for T2 players to start playing Legacy. When they see how much it costs to buy into the format, they are just running away.

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In my opinion, any Standard Player that balks at investment of getting into Legacy needs to break out a calculator and actually add up the dollars spent playing any type of competative Standard deck over an extended period of time. Standard is by far much more expensive to maintain. Why else would wizards support it over all the other formats so much!?