[Deck] Spring Tide

does this work!? thats insane!
then remand should be a 4 of!

Remand seems especially poor in this deck. Since you usually want to play Merchant Scroll on turn 2 or some other manipulation spell like Serum Visions or even Sleight of Hand. You don't really want to play control in any matchup. When you go off with this deck you shouldn't have to Remand a Brain Freeze because you will being drawing cards that draw you cards. The draw in this deck is much better than Solidarity and it doesn't need to resort to Remand -> Brain Freeze.

So far for me the Remands have helped me more than it has hurt me.

Just fyi I got 1st tonight for weekly legacy using this deck.

remand yust sucks in spring tide.
You really always want to play merchant scroll turn 2 if youre stil missing a piece to combo out.
The times that you already have the parts you yust want to play cantrips, this is not a control deck its combo, you cant wait like solidarity can and you have a better draw engine wich creates much higher storm counts so you dont need the remand/freeze

I back tracked and read some of the comments made about Remand. Personally I still like Remand in this deck. Last night it saved me 1 game and testing it out today it made me keep going instead of fizzle out.

What I do agree with is that Remand early game is some what useless especially for 2 mana but mid game IMO can be really helpful.

The thing is that this deck should never be hitting midgame. Solidarity wants to wait as long as possible before comboing out, and Remand helps with this plan by stalling your opponent for a turn. It also helps while comboing out because you can Remand a Brain Freeze. Spring Tide wants to win as quickly as possible, so doesn't care too much about slowing the opponent down. There aren't too many decks in Legacy that have a fundamental turn 3, and that's how Spring Tide wins. Merchant Scroll helps you to maintain a fundamental turn of 3. Additionally, Spring Tide plays no maindeck Brain Freezes, so Remand becomes less useful in that aspect.

From my experience, Spring Tide has enough powerful and versatile cards available that including cute tricks 'in case you need them' actually decreases resilency.

With the raw untap- and draw-power, the line between fizzling totally (beyond the ability of Brain Freeze + Remand to save the day) and going off all the way (draw most of your library, then make them draw all of theirs) is very fine. The chance of something in between seems to be smaller than the chance of fizzling because you draw too many dead-ish cards.

I've been most happy with the stripped-down version (Echoing Truth and 2 X-draws in the main. No Wishes, no Freeze); the lack of access to some of the cuter tricks turned out trivial in practice.

I just edited mine and instead of 3x Wishes I'm down to 1 which I think by the end of the day I might replace it with a 2 X-draw card.

Also I just wanted to say that my 1x Snapback works pretty well with Faeries.
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Just fyi some random kid had 4x foil Brainfreezes at my local shop and I instantly traded it off him. Wheeeeeee...

Cunning Wish is a card that only seems to be the worst card in your deck. If you have the mana to really use a massive X-draw spell, then paying three more for it isn't going to change that much. But Cunning Wish being as versatile as it is becomes very powerful in games were you don't have to win turn three.

On a similar note, Wipe Away is forcing many control players to counter Cunning Wish, and since this deck needs to out-draw and out-threat those opponents, why would you remove two threats?

Disclaimer: I try to optimise my decklist for speed. If the match-up warrants it, I will slow play but I won't tweak my decklist in that direction. If that was a priority, I'd play Solidarity.

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If mana is no issue, Cunning Wish is lovely. On the other hand, so are x-draws. I understand the convenience of a tutor for the occasional exotic answer that you never want to actually draw; I think other things deserve priority over that though. That capability of Wish is also offset partially by the need to cripple your Board.

I pretty much want to see 2 draw-x every game and Echoing Truth is both an excellent answer to troublesome permanents when needed and a better mana producer late-combo than anything usually run in the main. Let me elaborate in a short analysis of available tools for the mana engine:

Cloud of Faeries is the only cheap and unconditional untapping effect. All others have the chance to be more effective and also serve a secondary role, either bouncing problematic permanents or mana denial. Let us just consider their role as a mana generator for the moment for now.
In the format of 'Minimum Requirements other than a Tide / Requirements to be better than a Cloud / Maximum mana yield':

Cloud of Faeries: 2 Mana / not applicable / 8
Snap: 2 Mana, 1 Creature anywhere / 1 Cloud / 16
Turnabout: 4 Mana / 3 Lands+ / 16
Echoing Truth: 4 Mana, 1 Cloud+/ 2 Clouds+ / 30
Capsize: 8 Mana, 4 High Tide, 1 Cloud / <-- / infinite

(A + denotes that either multiple High Tides or more of the given condition are needed to reach the specified margin of usefulness. For Turnabout, I assumed 4 lands in play; if you think 21 would be a more realistic ceiling I won't argue)

The requirements for Echoing Truth to kick some arse are not all that steep for the potential reward (Capize is too much of a win-more. If I resolved 4 High Tides, have 8 mana to spare and end up losing, I likely deserve it), and I feel it is definitely maindeck material. Probably not in multiples because the requirements are non-trivial, but the single copy helped me out considerably.

I can understand running Echoing Truth main, especially with Faerie Stompy running those annoying Chalices on top of the usual Mages and Goblins. Not a bad choice in my book. :smile:

But let's continue with the Wish/X-draw discussion, because while you're presenting figures (and they're right BTW), you're not presenting the RIGHT figures.

Cunning Wish has the flexibility of finding a bounce spell, and that's very important. Most of the games I lose to Goblins are simply because I can't stop Pillar or Chalice. Cunning Wish is a TUTOR just like your Merchant Scrolls are; it just has one less target, costs one more, doesn't shuffle your deck, etc.

To take a perceptive look, if you use Cunning Wish, then you probably can't win without it, so in a sense, it becomes as important as your High Tides. But small points aside, Cunning Wish is never awful, and X-draw spells are usually better than Cunning Wish in a very small window.

A Braingeyser for ten will require that you have 14 or 16 mana (2, 10, 2-4 for untap usage). A Cunning Wish->Meditate will give you 4 cards for 6 mana (Stroke is 6 cards). Yup, clear winner sighted. BUT that doesn't usually happen until you are deep into the area where a Brain Freeze can win or you have 6-7 lands on the table. (and yeah, you're not losing then...)

If you have more mana (let's say 24), then Braingeyser will be for 18-20 cards. Cunning->Stroke will give you 14-16 cards. That's a minute difference. But the real problem is that X-draw can't do diddly until you have about 10 mana, where Cunning Wish can do almost anything. That really hurts, especially if you have a mediocre hand and need a few good draws.

If any card is good with our fundamental turn of 3, it sure isn't Braingeyser. Cunning Wish isn't that uber either, but it's better.

in my opinion its yust better to play no maindeck wishes or stroke and geyser/capsize.
I do play 1 mainboard echoing truth wich is supplemented by 3 muddle the mixture's.
For matchups were you can face blessing I have 1x capsize and 1x braingeyser to combo out on them.
I really like muddle the mixture as a tutor especially aginst control decks where you have an uncounterable tutor for defense grid wich can even counter youre opponents counters:eek:
So my verdict is, dont play wishes and/or geyser maindeck.
If you would play in a meta where you face blessing game 1 :confused: then you should start maindecking them again

I was absolutely ecstatic about Muddle the Mixture at first. In addition to being a moderately useful counter, it is a good replacement for Cunning Wish. After playing with it a lot, exactly that is my problem: 3 mana is no bargain price for a tutor that is generally more limited than a Merchant Scroll.

Currently I run one and am considering to replace it with a 3rd Meditate (about the only gripe I have with my current deck is that it depends on a draw-x on myself more than I would like).

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As a counterpoint to what I just said: If you run Brain Freeze in the maindeck, Muddle the Mixture is wonderful. An uncounterable tutor for an uncounterable win condition has some merit.
I have merely been more successful with versatile spells rather than narrower cards + tutors.

I really like muddle with 1 mainboard brain freeze, but you only play 2 meditate? that sounds really weird. I would never go under 3 meditate

I myself am pretty happy still with the 1 Cunning Wish.

For me 3x Meditates is good and I dont know how I dont have 4x Merchant Scrolls in there I just noticed today and put the 4th one in. Instant help.

Also my 1x Snapback has saved me 2 games now from fizzling out and putting back my Faeries back in my hand.

@ koeka: I cut Meditate down to 2 after including Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius (also only 2 Turnabout - Echoing Truth more than takes up the slack when not needed as bounce).

I don't really notice a lack in my draw department unless I had to discard/pitch a draw-x, and that only since I also cut Brain Freeze. In that case, however, getting the mana to cast the second draw-x for the win can be rough on only 4 Ideas Unbound and 2 Meditates for hand refueling. That is a weakness of my build, but any cure I tested so far is worse than the disease.

You seem to be be less short on slots than me - do you run less than 12 cantrips or 4 Force of Wills?

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@ al the great: Snapback seems like it would cause more problems than it solves in most builds when run maindeck. Sure, it can get you out of an 'oops' occasionally, but most of the time it will be an inferior snap.

Also, is it worth restricting your sideboard options for a single Wish? Probably not an issue if you have a well-established metagame with only a few popular decks, just wondering.

May I ask what the current deck lists look like for this, or were they posted a few pages back. I couldn't figure out what has been updated and what hasn't with all the recent discussion for and against Wish. Thanks.

I'm still using two Cunning Wishes. It does take up a few sideboard slots though, but I usually don't side in much anyway.

My current list is this, although I switch that Impulse slot around constantly:

4 High Tide

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Impulse
4 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish

4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
3 Turnabout

4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate

4 Force of Will

10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard:
3 Disrupt
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Defense Grid
1 Stifle
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Wipe Away
1 Chain of Vapor

Sadly, this doesn't totally answer your question Anarky87, since it's just my list. Since I'm pretty new here, I'm pretty sure that this list is anywhere else on this forum yet. Have you guys changed your lists at all, or are they the same as the changes you made on earlier pages?

My list stands on something like this now:


4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
2Muddle the Mixture
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Cloud of Faeries
3 Snap
3 Turnabout
1 Echoing Truth
4 Ideas Unbound
3 Meditate
4 Force of Will
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Brain Freeze

Sideboard:
4 Disrupt
3 Divert
4 Defense Grid
1 Braingeyser
1 Brain Freeze
1 Capsize
1 Hurkylls Recall

I have a lot of decks that pack discard in my meta so 4x dirupts, 3 divert are really needed.
Some people pack random aggro decks wich you yust murder, there also are some random control decks without fows because of budget but still with a lot of counters.

I prefer muddle to remand because it can counter against control and most important it can fetch brainfreeze, grids and draw

My deck is officially Wish free. I'm putting in 1x Muddle in place.