How to save Legacy

I don't think the format needs saving. However, here is my opinion on how to really help the legacy community:

1. Accept the increasingly grassroots nature of the format and community. Host smaller events based on good-natured socializing, testing new ideas, and having a good time.
2. Allow proxies. Any number of (reasonable quality) proxies. It's not about the money.
3. Do little things that support the player base IRL. Offer housing for travelers visiting from other regions (thank you, Barcelona). Let new players borrow decks (thanks, Curio Cavern). Encourage free play at the pub before and after the event (London Legacy does this, it's brilliant). Hang out in in The Legacy Pit stream chat. It all adds up.

It's obvious to most people but it's still nice to have in writing; a good culture is way more important than the card game itself.

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FWIW I also dislike most of the 2019 "obvious mistake" cards. I have no idea what they were thinking.

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Originally Posted by Maximus

I don't think the format needs saving. However, here is my opinion on how to really help the legacy community:

1. Accept the increasingly grassroots nature of the format and community. Host smaller events based on good-natured socializing, testing new ideas, and having a good time.
2. Allow proxies. Any number of (reasonable quality) proxies. It's not about the money.
3. Do little things that support the player base IRL. Offer housing for travelers visiting from other regions (thank you, Barcelona). Let new players borrow decks (thanks, Curio Cavern). Encourage free play at the pub before and after the event (London Legacy does this, it's brilliant). Hang out in in The Legacy Pit stream chat. It all adds up.

It's obvious to most people but it's still nice to have in writing; a good culture is way more important than the card game itself.

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FWIW I also dislike most of the 2019 "obvious mistake" cards. I have no idea what they were thinking.

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I'd like to add: stop fragmenting into Discord channels and stay on mtgthesource

Wouldn't the trinity manifesto cripple combo decks too much? You would have to unban a lot of tutors to keep combo decks like Solidarity playable and I'm not even sure that's enough.

However, perhaps a Restricted List would be good for Legacy. Look at Vintage this year - restricting Misstep completely shook up Vintage and Misstep is really ideal as a restricted card. Also, having restricted cards makes the game a little more exciting. Restricting dual lands and some other tutorable RL cards like Cradle and Serra's Sanctum wouldn't completely solve the basic legacy problem, but it would double to triple Legacy's maximum player pool potential.

A restricted list would be less dramatic than Trinity manifesto, and I'm not sure the math works out for 3 card limit in Magic. L5R was a 3 card limit game, designed for 30 card decks. When they increased the minimum deck sizes to 40 the game got a lot worse.

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Originally Posted by jiazhouhuaqiao

Wouldn't the trinity manifesto cripple combo decks too much? You would have to unban a lot of tutors to keep combo decks like Solidarity playable and I'm not even sure that's enough.

However, perhaps a Restricted List would be good for Legacy. Look at Vintage this year - restricting Misstep completely shook up Vintage and Misstep is really ideal as a restricted card. Also, having restricted cards makes the game a little more exciting. Restricting dual lands and some other tutorable RL cards like Cradle and Serra's Sanctum wouldn't completely solve the basic legacy problem, but it would double to triple Legacy's maximum player pool potential.

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A Restricted List (as opposed to a Banned List) is exactly what really differentiates Vintage from Legacy. If Legacy goes to a Restricted List as well, then the question would of course be, what ends up Restricted as opposed to Banned? There is enough of an issue in formulating what the essential vs accidental properties that make Legacy what we believe Legacy to be without conflating what (seems to) separates Vintage from Legacy as well.

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Originally Posted by Maximus

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FWIW I also dislike most of the 2019 "obvious mistake" cards. I have no idea what they were thinking.

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Originally Posted by jmlima

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Yup Hasbro called out two product lines in their q3 earnings graphic: D&D and mtg. Big things coming for NERF btw in q4 if that's your jam.

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Originally Posted by kinda

Yup Hasbro called out two product lines in their q3 earnings graphic: D&D and mtg. Big things coming for NERF btw in q4 if that's your jam.

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Nerf NERF, they'll cry.

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Originally Posted by H

A Restricted List (as opposed to a Banned List) is exactly what really differentiates Vintage from Legacy. If Legacy goes to a Restricted List as well, then the question would of course be, what ends up Restricted as opposed to Banned? There is enough of an issue in formulating what the essential vs accidental properties that make Legacy what we believe Legacy to be without conflating what (seems to) separates Vintage from Legacy as well.

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I think you would restrict non-essential, low supply, high demand Reserve List cards like ABUR duals, Gaea's Cradle, Serra's Sanctum, etc... but you would not restrict essential RL cards like LED and Phyrexian Dreadnought for example (basically cards that people run 4 of that are not easy to tutor). Most of the cards you would restrict people are only running 1 or 2 copies of anyway. And then you could move some cards from the banned list to restricted if they are ok as a restricted card, for example Mana Drain, Survival and Gush could be looked out. This is like the only way that a RL card like Survival should ever come off the banned list.

For example a restricted list could look like:
ABUR dual lands (RL low supply non-essential tutorable)
Gaea's Cradle (RL low supply non-essential tutorable)
Serra's Sanctum (RL low supply non-essential tutorable)
Transmute Artifact (RL non-essential)
Grim Monolith (RL low supply non-essential)
In the Eye of Chaos (RL low supply non-essential)
Gilded Drake (RL low supply non-essential)
Intuition (RL non-essential)
Replenish (RL, most lists run only 1 if at all anyway)

Survival of the Fittest (RL low supply unban)
Balance (unban, white could use a boost)
Gush (unban)
Mana Drain (unban)
Mental Misstep (unban)
Wrenn and Six (unban)

Cards that we wouldn't be able to restrict would be like:
LED
City of Traitors
Time Spiral
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Aluren

Neat new format, I'll be over here playing Legacy

You do realize that this hypothetical format is vastly different than Legacy, as is? The notion that it is "just as good" "or maybe better" or "more sustainable" are not matters of fact, but rather matters of subjective valuation and opinion.

Not to mention, the notion the cost is the biggest barrier to Legacy is unproven/unprovable. Even when one runs proxy events, people don't show up. How many of them are against the notion of proxies, or are simply just not actually interested in Legacy play? Unknown and unprovable amounts, really.

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Originally Posted by jmlima

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Okay fair enough. Can't really argue that.

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I know this is contrary to my prior post, but I'm not sure the barrier of entry to Legacy is necessarily a bad thing? This is speculating but I think it may filter out a significant amount of shall we say "degenerates". In my experience the various gaming communities have a way of drawing a specific range of unsavory people, and for XYZ reasons Legacy tends to filter them out. I think cost may be one of them. But maybe that's wrong, not sure.

Also a side tangent, I don't talk to a whole lot of people about the game. That said, nearly everyone I've met hates planeswalkers. I was considering trying a version of legacy that is essentially the same as it is now, except with the 2019 power creep (astrolabe, veil, etc) and the planeswalker card type also banned.

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Originally Posted by Maximus

Okay fair enough. Can't really argue that.

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I know this is contrary to my prior post, but I'm not sure the barrier of entry to Legacy is necessarily a bad thing? This is speculating but I think it may filter out a significant amount of shall we say "degenerates". In my experience the various gaming communities have a way of drawing a specific range of unsavory people, and for XYZ reasons Legacy tends to filter them out. I think cost may be one of them. But maybe that's wrong, not sure.

Also a side tangent, I don't talk to a whole lot of people about the game. That said, nearly everyone I've met hates planeswalkers. I was considering trying a version of legacy that is essentially the same as it is now, except with the 2019 power creep (astrolabe, veil, etc) and the planeswalker card type also banned.

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There are just a couple of rule changes that would help this format.

1. Planeswalkers should be on the stack.
2. how the hell can you cast a sorcery spell for the miracle cost on my turn?
3. 3 mana planeswalkers with 6 loyalty counters on the turn it comes in to play is busted.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

There are just a couple of rule changes that would help this format.

1. Planeswalkers should be on the stack.
2. how the hell can you cast a sorcery spell for the miracle cost on my turn?
3. 3 mana planeswalkers with 6 loyalty counters on the turn it comes in to play is busted.

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Especially agree with #2. Miracles has legacy in a silent stranglehold for years.

WOTC recognized the real culprit, fetch lands, which is why they are banned in pioneer, but it's safe to say those and brainstorm will never get banned from legacy.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

it's safe to say those and brainstorm will never get banned from legacy.

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Thank God.

Also, I like Planeswalkers. Not that I think we are where we need to be on the correct amount of removal/hate that is available for them though. Still, the old Creature/Removal paradigm is just far too polar now to just got back to it. That ship sailed long ago and it's not coming back to port.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

Especially agree with #2. Miracles has legacy in a silent stranglehold for years.

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I agree with this. That said, with my idea Miracles also loses Jace too. Being forced to use a more interactive win-con might make the deck much more reasonable to negotiate.

I really do think that removing the PW card type just makes for a better format. Again, all speculation.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

1. Planeswalkers should be on the stack.

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They're not?

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

They're not?

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Not if you cant bolt jace before letting him tick up

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Not if you cant bolt jace before letting him tick up

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I think changing priority for the card type would be rather difficult though, wouldn't it? I've heard the idea before to just lend summoning sickness to the card type as well, but that might just make red comparatively ridiculous and create a different problem.

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Originally Posted by Maximus

I think changing priority for the card type would be rather difficult though, wouldn't it? I've heard the idea before to just lend summoning sickness to the card type as well, but that might just make red comparatively ridiculous and create a different problem.

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4 bolts wouldnt warp the format compared to teferi, narset, jace

They do use the stack, what you want to do is change the cost to an effect which works for + abilities but not for -.
What you're asking for would be a difficult under the current framework of the rules.