'Mississippi River' (All In Creativity Technique Combo)

I agree with PirateKing.

If you want to be all-in and fast, Legacy has faster combos that scoop to Force (Oops!, Epic Gamble/Riddlesmith). And faster combos that don't scoop to Force (Doomsday, TES, Reanimator).

The niche this deck occupies is being incredibly redundant and consistent. Redundant enablers (beats draw variance & discard) and mechanics that dodge FoW (cascade & demonstrate). The enablers are also the wincons, which is such an elegant and efficient use of deck space.

Throesbalt is 50% faster but also loses to a FoW, Daze, FoN, Spell Pierce, Blue Elemental Blast, draw variance... ThroesBalt gives up all the resilience for speed, to be still slower than other all-in decks.

In any competitive meta, FoW is 40-60% of the field. Wouldn't you want to be on the 6cmc plan in game 1, and only board into ThroesBalt game 2 vs fast combo?

@PirateKing: MODO Leagues are full of fast combo, since they're the most time-efficient way to grind trophies. Being preboarded against combo (ThroesBalt main) would increase win% in MODO Leagues (not scooping game 1). But in a Challenge or paper event, fair blue makes a much larger appearance.

T3feri is often beat by maindeck Carnosaur. Otherwise Otawara or the haste cascade creatures.

How would you describe your win rate against Delver tempo decks? Slightly unfavored, even, slightly favored, or something else?

It would depend on their sideboard, but in a broad sense I'd feel slightly favored. If they get a fast start with pressure and can survive your first attempt and then present lethal damage in their Turn 4 then that's just how that goes. But a normal start from them with Turn 1 Ponder or the Delver doesn't flip or just not getting the second blue card for double Force is the typical games I get. Call it bad luck for them or the variance playing out to my stronger odds, I never feel dominant, but get the win right when I need to (the turn before I'd die)

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Originally Posted by AEMarling

How would you describe your win rate against Delver tempo decks? Slightly unfavored, even, slightly favored, or something else?

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Slightly favored. Losses were mainly to things like double Wasteland on red source.

Otherwise you can often play around Daze, so they need double Force/BEB after 1 Demonstrate to stop the combo. If you at least partially go off, they struggle to handle your fatties. If they Surgical CT, they have a hard time beating Aeve.

I also played Let the Galaxy Burn though, which sometimes kills 2-3 dorks, and have used Otawara and Carnosaur to uncounterably mess with their attackers.

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Originally Posted by AEMarling

The latest MTGO winning decklists are playing the Tibalt’s Trickery package main, along with 4 Apex Devestators because they reduce the fizzle rate. Being fifty-percent faster matters.
https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=1658&meta=39&f=LE

What I’m less sure about it the sideboard. The 6/3 haste is a fine suggestion for T3feri. The legendary land is more sure. But the winning lists don’t seem to be playing it.

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How do you define "winning lists"?

The MTGO League lists are on ThroesBalt, but most of the others (i.e. paper event with tournament structure) are on the 6cmc cascade plan.

The faster Tibalt plan may be better in combo-heavy Leagues. But the League meta isn't even the same as the Challenge meta.

I tried a winning decklist without Tibalt’s Trickery main. Now I encourage you to do the reverse, take out the faster version for a voyage. If you do, Mississippi River may not feel so much like a meme. You may even have more fun, with the excitement of greater variance. The Tibalt’s Trickery version has more branches in the cascading stream.

The benefit you gain in consistency is counteracted by being slower a turn. It gives Tempo decks more time to set up and attack your lands. If there is a boost in win rate for consistency, it is slight. And you suffer a crippling decrease in win rate against any deck aiming for speed, like Goblins.

Gave it a shot and tested it. It's fun and fast, but plays out more like a lottery. Felt like there was less decision power beyond jamming turn 2 and hoping it works. When it does work it's great. But when it doesn't there seems to be little counterplay available.

I used to play a lot of Belcher years ago (before Oops! and TEG made it obsolete). I think even Belcher had more relevant decisions & counterplay available. Jamming Tibalt T2 OTD into Force (with only 8 starters) feels like a coin flip.

ThroesBalt got a lot of League 5-0s, but on this weekend's MTGO Legacy Challenge it went 2-5 at 51st place.

Maybe I'm missing lines in this version. What are your matchups like? What lines do you use to beat decks like Delver, Beans, UB Scam?

Isn't the nice thing about Throes that you can retrace it even if you fail?
Given that you play 30+ lands you should be able to retrace it unless you run out of lands or Trickeries.

True. Violent Outburst doesn't, so you have to start with exactly Throes + extra lands. The Violent Outburst hands fold to a single Force or discard spell.

Throes (4cmc) also turns on Daze as an out, so you may need to fight through both Force + Daze. Luckily there is a 3rd Tibalt...

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Originally Posted by FTW

True. Violent Outburst doesn't, so you have to start with exactly Throes + extra lands. The Violent Outburst hands fold to a single Force or discard spell.

Throes (4cmc) also turns on Daze as an out, so you may need to fight through both Force + Daze. Luckily there is a 3rd Tibalt...

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I missed the Outburst in the lists.
They seem a bit too all-in-y for my taste as the only advantage is being Daze proof in certain cases.

However, if they have to Force/Daze you on T2 then you slow them down too.
Granted, it is one more opportunity for them to waste you but it can also give you time to ramp into another enabler as you can use a land to try again with Throes.
The funny thing is that getting a Trickery countered actually reduces the fizzle probability of hitting another one so it might not be that bad.

There is also just the specter of Trickery into Trickery failures that, if I step away from the analytical understanding of probabilities, happens to me 1,000% of the time :<

Yeah I guess there are tempo advantages.

There's also a brewer's advantage. With the 6 cmc build, if I played T1 Sandstone Needle, Delver usually goes T1 DRC/Delver instead of T1 Waste/Ponder into FoW. Because they expect you to go off T3 so they think they have time to set up and value putting you on a clock. Then you could maybe catch them off guard with T2 Outburst/Throes, after they didn't use turn 1 to set up disruption. But now that these lists are more common, the tempo player can adjust and play T1 Waste/Ponder. Or they know to Surgical Throes, due to lack of starters. Before they figure that out there would be some temporary boost in win% while they play around the 6cmc version.

Yes, Trickery into Trickery is bad. As is CT into Trickery. Yes, it plays more like a lottery. That’s what makes it fun. Every time you are like, “Big money! Apex Devestator—-yessss!”

But also you’re faster. And it is not like if they counter one spell you’re done. You still play CT, so if they counter the first one you can still combo a turn later. And if you draw a Throes you can counter check them every turn.

I've played the deck a few times without throes MD and without mind's desire or all the other funky cards I. I agree with what's said here: The point of the deck is that is very resilient and can fight through hate. You may lose to double wasteland, a very fast start of Initiative, or flipping something unfortunate from technique. But Tibalt's trickery makes the deck much more random. The win% of the trickery version are horrible online, I wonder if it'd be the same without Tibalt's trickery MD.

I like Tibalt's trickery though as a SB option when you must be faster. Against what do you sideboard them in? I think I've done that against reanimator and maybe initiative on the draw, would do the same against doomsday. This is the decklist I played last time: https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/mississi...a-mora-1886557


Most of the times I ended up boarding the 4th carnosaur and the 4th Otawara. I would probably move the Otawara maindeck rather than a basic / volcanic. Winning the first game through hate is quite important (teferis, archon of emeria). In the SB I'd change the Pyrokinesis for sure, Karakas and Boseiju I'm not sure. The split between Aurora Phoenix and Let the Galaxy burn was fine, since you still need some amount of creatures, but Galaxy burn sometimes can kill creatures and costs only R.

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Originally Posted by Arcadia

I've played the deck a few times without throes MD and without mind's desire or all the other funky cards I. I agree with what's said here: The point of the deck is that is very resilient and can fight through hate. You may lose to double wasteland, a very fast start of Initiative, or flipping something unfortunate from technique. But Tibalt's trickery makes the deck much more random. The win% of the trickery version are horrible online, I wonder if it'd be the same without Tibalt's trickery MD.

I like Tibalt's trickery though as a SB option when you must be faster. Against what do you sideboard them in? I think I've done that against reanimator and maybe initiative on the draw, would do the same against doomsday. This is the decklist I played last time: https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/mississi...a-mora-1886557


Most of the times I ended up boarding the 4th carnosaur and the 4th Otawara. I would probably move the Otawara maindeck rather than a basic / volcanic. Winning the first game through hate is quite important (teferis, archon of emeria). In the SB I'd change the Pyrokinesis for sure, Karakas and Boseiju I'm not sure. The split between Aurora Phoenix and Let the Galaxy burn was fine, since you still need some amount of creatures, but Galaxy burn sometimes can kill creatures and costs only R.

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I haven't actively played Legacy in a few years, but I've been following this thread since the beginning and slowly acquiring all the cards.
Your list looks exactly like what I would like to try at my LGS in the near future, but I've never actually played the deck against a real opponent.
How do you sideboard? What do you take out when you bring in Throes? Some starters, some lands?
Thx in advance

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Originally Posted by snugar_i

I haven't actively played Legacy in a few years, but I've been following this thread since the beginning and slowly acquiring all the cards.
Your list looks exactly like what I would like to try at my LGS in the near future, but I've never actually played the deck against a real opponent.
How do you sideboard? What do you take out when you bring in Throes? Some starters, some lands?
Thx in advance

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I haven't put it into a list, but it's mostly a few considerations together:
Do they play wasteland, counters, creatures, things you may need to kill/bounce, many cards that you can reveal with technique that are bad, would you be able to go off a second time?

Then you can cut. Throes gives you more starters and you usually want to start quick with Throes. so I try to keep all untapped sol lands, and red sol lands. Except boarding party, the other starters have pros and cons: In terms of being creature, color requirement, they can do something against hate..

Sometimes you don't want to give them many chances with Technique also, so having Wanderer/Emrakul and hitting creatures is important so that you don't have to demonstrate anymore. So it's usually something like the 4 worst starters, 1 Otawara, 1 Volcanic, 1 something else. Sometimes you have to also bring Aeve if they could have Surgical.

Tested decks using MH3 cards agains the River, and they drowned. Made me wonder if any new cards could help this deck. Any thoughts?

Meteoric Mace seems worse than the current set of 4RR cascade cards

Emrakul & Ulamog have strong cast triggers, but Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is probably still best for the Time Walk + graveyard shuffle + Annihilate 6. Imho it's very hard to lose after casting Emrakul.

Vexing Bauble is a big problem, I realize now. Yes, we have answers, but part of the draw was playing a deck few people had dedicated hate against.

Boseiju, Who Endures is an easy solution to Bauble.

Other answers already existed like Teferi, Time Raveler, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Damping Sphere, Sphere of Resistance. The risk is Bauble may see more play because it hates on Force and cantrips. It'll depend how the meta develops.