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Four Daze has been fine with me... It's not only used early, but also in mid-late game... Plus, it's always fun when someone hurls a 20-point fireball at your face and then you counter it with Daze... :tongue:
It can be avoided/milled with the cantrips and can be pitched to Force... So having late-game copies isn't that bad. I'd rather see one late-game than to not see one early.
While I can rationalize the odd 3- or 1-of, 2-ofs require a lot more convincing. Given this config, I'd rather just drop the 2 Predicts for +1 Note +1 Portent. 4-ofs require little convincing. With 2 Predicts, it'll show up as infrequently as a 2-of Fact or Fiction, which would just be better without bending over backwards.Quote:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum visions
3 Portent
3 Mental note
2 Predict
Exactly. I've spent a while tinkering with the Daze count and, pre-board anyhow, I don't think it makes good sense to run less than 4. Sure, it seems a little risky, but you want them early and often (which is the logical reason to run 4). As innocuous as the card seems, it's one of the secrets to the deck's power (i.e. the ability to develop your board and deploy threats while still maintaining your counter-shield). It packs an unusual amount of punch for a nickle common from a pretty dodgy set.Quote:
It can be avoided/milled with the cantrips and can be pitched to Force... So having late-game copies isn't that bad. I'd rather see one late-game than to not see one early.
The counter that I find the least appealing is Counterspell. I'm considereing dropping that sucker outright.
I think 3 is the way. Daze is lategame, well, a dead card. Thereby, playing 4 of them means cutting on your cantrips. Finding two Dazes in your openinghand isn't too great also: a lot of tempo loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
With 3 you can daze your opponent plenty enough to let him think you always hold them, en therefor slowing him down.
With only 2 of them, you centainly can't guarantee seeing them early. Random daze's don't work very well.
Run 4 if you run Mental Note and Mages. Your clock is so friggin' fast, it will force your opponent to tap out just to either go-off or answer them. Otherwise play 3 if your unsure about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Solpugid: Pick one... Having either Mental Note or Predict can easily and drastically change the entire build of the deck. Mental Note needs Proactive answers, but sacrifices it's midgame advantage. Predict just needs more plays to cycle through the deck in order to find new threats, answers, and cantrips to keep the cycle going, alas, it has a midgame. Having the two dont do much unless you just want Threshold ASAP.
I understand the disadvantage of running predict as a two-of, but I think this deck needs a mid-game. If mental note-induced speed fails to seal a win, the deck can always use a boost in cards to finish up the job. This is the only reason I'm reluctant to make them mental note #4 and portent #4.
Also, when going a very aggro route, I don't like seeing multiple dazes early. Yes, they're free, but they stunt your mana (and tempo) enough to weaken the aggressive gameplan. This is why I think I'll personally stay at 3.
Drop the Dazes. Play Stifle instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
Predicts dont give you a midgame if you run Mental Note. It immediately brakes the chain of cantrips, and your chain just stops. There goes your card quality.
If I'm running 4 brainstorm, 4 serum visions, and 3 portent (in addition to 3 mental note) then I do have the ability to effectively run predict. My main question (for myself and others) is whether or not it's even worth it having those 2 predicts or if they should fill out my 1-cc cantrips instead.
I've Dazed a hell of a lot of stuff and the effect on your tempo isn't as bad as you'd think. The only exception is dropping an early-ish Enforcer, but that's generally a rare play anyway, so I wouldn't factor that too heavily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
Remember too that "tempo" isn't a static quantity--it's relative between you and your opponent's development. So Daze is much more devastating to their tempo than your's. They'll often spend their mana and their turn and you negate that even though you've spent your mana and your turn furthering your own plan.
Anything I'd want to Stifle, I'd rather just counter instead (with a few notable exceptions that are still quite narrow). One of the thing's that makes Thresh such a good deck is its flexibility as a control deck that can beat down viciously. Stifle makes the deck into a more specialized (metagamed?) creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Like, sure you can Stifle an activation of Survival, Vial, or Piledriver's "I'm a monster" ability, but you're just postponing the inevitable--they'll do it again next turn.
I was about half-serious when I made the suggestion, although I have recently cut Daze from my CounterSliver build and haven't missed it a bit. CounterSliver and UGW Thresh are different decks, though, despite their similarities. Obviously, Daze is tried and true in Thresh decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
That said, I do think you're downplaying the usefulness of Stifle, and perhaps exaggerating the usefulness of Daze a bit. Sure, Stifle isn't much good against Survival or Vial. Then again, neither is Daze, unless your opponent is silly enough to walk into it. Probably 75% of the usefulness of Daze comes from the fact that opponents are forced to play around it, which damages their own tempo. For that reason, it's probably okay to play just 3 of them.
Stifle just hits Combo, and Ringleader and Matron cip triggers. They also do so much more random goodness.
@Solpugid: I'm just saying, playing Predicts dont give you the midgame if you run Mental Notes, it just gives you Threshold. Running more Cantrips in the Mental Note version is good, but running 16 makes this deck hallow. It wants real cards, because it cant dig for them with Mental Note, whereas, The Predict versions just has only like 4 Categories (lands, threats, answers, and cantrips) in their deck, not much unique or special.
Playing three of them is fine for the whole ilusion factor, making your opponents play around them. But for that one time when they actually decide not to play around it to risk dropping that turn two Survival so they can go nuts on turn 3, you actually need to have the Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
I've dropped all predicts out and now I have had much better success against goblins and aggro. I'm really not missing Predicts at all.
Currently I run:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Portent
3 Mental note
Please tell me your running Mages, Needles, and 17 Lands with 4 Portents? It's cool, that you like Mental Note, but at least your playing Portent as well. I cant bitch about that really.
Anyone discussed about Geddons' viability in the metagame yet?
Troll Ascetics are really a nuisance. I don't know how often they pop up in any of your meta but I have run into too many times right now. Against them 1 Mystic Enforcer main deck is not enough. There is so many times I've been missing Wrath of God. If not main decked, maybe 2-4 in sideboard?
Are you serious? I have them all over my metagame as well. In forms of RGSA and RG Beatz. In RG SA, I generally dont care much for them, and seem to act as though they're just ground walls, and I draw Enforcer ftw. If it's RG Beatz, you should consider running more Needles. They're deadly in that kind of deck. If they have a Rancor, your just screwed. Calling Troll with Needle has won me countless number of games, and Having Bears stall the ground until you draw Enforcer isnt a bad play either.Quote:
Originally Posted by raudo
Also, EE should make them to tap them selves out among other things. My SB configuration against them would be...
-1 Portent
-1 Serum Visions
-4 Meddling Mage
+2 Engineered Explosives
+1 Pithing Needle
+3 Hydroblast/2 Hydroblast and 1 Mystic Enforcer
If you playing against RGSA, make sure Needle gets on Survival, and a Mage set on FtK. As for your Troll problem, they shouldn't be much of a factor Game 2. You side in Geddons', another Enforcer, and your Loaming Shamans/Grunts. I have played this match-up tons of times, and that is the best I've got.
My build, yes I know it is Gro:
MAIN
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Meddling Mage
1 Mystic Enforcer
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Sleight of Hand
1 Ancestral Vision
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Counterspell
1 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
BOARD
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Worship
1 Chill
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stifle
1 Compost
3 ?? I dont remember what these last spots were. If I remember I will edit it.
Comments, concerns, please?
You need to describe your card choices in more depth than a list. This is true anywhere on the site, but even moreso in the LMF, and particularly when discussing such differing selections from the norm. Please elaborate if you want responses. ~ Nightmare
1. Goblins is going to give you trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilz88
2. The Enlighten Tutor Sideboard is pretty bad in the mirror, but the idea seems pretty flexible and verstile.
3. Take out Dryad, she's awful versus Goblins.
4. Take out two fetchlands for another Island and a Plains, then put Back to Basics in the sideboard.
5. I like your idea, heres my SB if I were to run that kind of SB...
// Sideboard 15
3 Enlighten Tutor
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ground Seal
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Worship
1 Back to Basics
1 Winter Orb
3 Stifle
2 Hydroblast
Can you please elaborate on that becase, in my experience, this is absolutely not the case. Even Kilz88 should remember me beating up on his gobbos with an 8/8 Dryad in the Kettering Lotus Tourney. Maybe I just know how to grow the green lady or maybe my Goblin weilding opponents have had bad draws, who knows. As I see it, Gempalm and Mogg are the only ways to take out an early-ish Dryad. Gro has lots more ways to grow the dryad out of killable range while controlling the tempo of the game. I'm not saying Dryad is the awesome sauce against Goblins, but she's far from awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But running dryad in threshold is suboptimal, regardless. She rewards you for playing spells quickly, where my experience with thresh leads me to play much more conservatively. In short, the way you play NQG is quite different from the way you play Gro.
I used to run her, as a 3-of, and I never liked the way she affected my play decisions. I was spending countermagic to protect her early on, and didn't have it when my opponent followed up with wrath or deed.