[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

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Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges

Blood Moon seems like it only beats out Choke if you have a lot of 4CC Landstill in your meta-game.

A)Backlash. Bloodmoon is shit when you draw all your non-basics.

B)Tertiary color instead of primary color. This seems especially important given that you need either a non-basic or Utopia Sprawl to cast it.

C)If they have a single basic island they can function pretty well under Blood Moon. Choke + Taxing effects = Down w/teh Sickness. It seems easier for most decks to play around Blood Moon than Choke.

D)BEB/Hydroblast gives them additional outs to Blood Moon.

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If they have a single basic island, unless they fetched for that island seeing blood moon coming, which imo is pretty rare, they can't even fetch for it or search for it if they're running Breakfast or Thresh. That seems overwhelmingly strong, moreso than choke. Choke requires them to tap out before you use it, and usually that means theyve played some sort of mid turn bomb. Blood moon can prevent them from ever casting it in the first place.

The thought of giving them 1 out in their deck might be swaying my opinion.

Blood Moon is an interesting addition to the deck. I kind of like it better than choke, on account of I find myself needing it against 3 and 4 color Landstill.

Really - think about the matches you'd want choke against. Then close your eyes and pretend you're playing blood moon instead. I think it helps those matches as well as helping other, non-blue based decks.

Anyone tried Hoofprints in this deck? Instead of the Mesa. I think this works very good, I gonna try it :).

Mvg

Hoofprints might be worth testing in the deck but it is no replacement for Sacred Mesa. Sacred Mesa kills in situations where your Words of War are in the last three or so cards of the deck or you end up with too many enchantress effects in play to play Words of War due to Replenish or the like.

This situation came up for me during my last tournament where my Sterling Groves were Extirpated and Words of War was the last card in my deck. Pegasi Tokens won me the game where Hoofprints would have done nothing.

I've been doing some testing with hoofprints on MWS lately, and it's all been pretty positive. Vorus has a pretty solid point, though - hoofprints is not a replacement for mesa, but not for the reason that he cites:

You don't want your entire win package draw-dependent. Mesa is nuts when you're trying to win through something like Arcane Lab or Rule of Law. It's also pretty good when you're in topdeck mode, even if you don't have any Enchantress effects out. Compotent opponents will only counter your 8 Enchantresses, WOW and Sacred Mesa. (Don't you dare remind me of Replenish - I'm not an idiot.) Adding two more win conditions has been pretty good.

The list that I've been rocking out with follows:

// Lands
2 [6E] Plains (1)
7 [UNH] Forest
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [A] Savannah
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
2 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
1 [UL] Karmic Justice (I know - I have a special promo creature version printed three years earlier!)

// Spells
3 [OD] Ground Seal
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [WL] Aura of Silence
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [LG] Moat
2 [VI] Elephant Grass
1 [VI] City of Solitude
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [9E] Blood Moon
4 [US] Exploration
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [MI] Sacred Mesa
2 [LRW] Hoofprints of the Stag

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UL] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 2 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 2 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [MI] Null Chamber
SB: 1 [PLC] Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 [IA] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 2 [LRW] Eyes of the Wisent

The List:
I cut the tool box a little while trying to fit in Hoofprints. My thoughts on that: Awesome. You can just drop it on turn 2 and slowly ride it out until you exaust your opponent's options, then make like 4 4/4 to beat face with. If only it were instant speed. Maybe we could rune fires or concordant crossroads? (No.)

I worked to make it to beat more landstill/control-y decks. Agro is usually pretty easy to deal with, but I'm a little afraid to have e-grasses in the board. I wish I played in the European Meta.

Mixed reviews on o-ring. Being able to take crucible/counterbalance/goyfs is nice, but I miss the instant speed of Seal of Doom.

Eyes has been kind of iffy - I can't decide whether or not I want to cut one for another CIty of Solitude and have another extra spot, or not. It's ballin against decks like gro - I just board out moat, then I have like even more must counters. Landstill, too.

COP:R's are there because goyf sligh sucks. And it makes goblins even more of a laugher.

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Originally Posted by lonelybaritone

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
1 [UL] Karmic Guide

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Is there some savage combo i can't see or is that karmig guide just karmic justice? :confused:

I'm trying to bring Enchantress to a good tournament (>80 people) next month and like to clarify all my doubts before that date.
There are some choices I can't understand.
- Humility. In which matchup is that good? Outside faerie stompy and maybe breakfast I can't see it much different from Moat, except it does bad things to your Argothians.
- Eyes of the Wisent. Never thought of those. They can be good in any counter matchup. Side them in vs Landstill, Solidarity and Threshold? is there any other deck i'm missing?
- 4 Explorations. I found 4 too much. The deck plays 22 lands and i feel like 3 are enough.
- Hoofprints. Are them any good in non-landstill matchup? They seem quite slow vs thresh and goblins and not that needed vs combo. However, in retrospect, 4/4s maybe good vs goblin's sharpshooter.

I finished testing the Chrome Moxes. They were good, but not overwhelming. Also, a 1 lander is keepable if you have an enchant-land, a 1 chrome mox hand is not keepable evar. So probably 22 lands is right.
Here's my list atm:
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Savannah
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [A] Taiga
9 [ON] Forest (1)
2 [MM] Plains (1)

// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress

// Spells
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [US] Exploration
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [OD] Ground Seal
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
1 [ON] Words of War
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa
1 [LG] Moat
2 [UD] Replenish
2 [IA] Wild Growth

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [8E] Choke
SB: 3 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [7E] Compost
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 1 [TE] Warmth

@Lonelybaritone. Just read the following part, as it's important for me to have your opinion on that, and i know of your attention-span problems :wink:

Weird choices explanation:
I found that an enchant-land on turn 1 is crucial for the deck. This helps playing an enchantress effect on turn 2 and develop your early mana. I really prefer the enchant lands to a massive amount of explorations. Explorations are good when you're digging faster through your deck, and at this point you're already in a winning position. I also saw that I rarely used all my exploration effects in the first 3-4 turns.

Let's suppose we got a 1 lander (10% of possibility). Maybe it's keepable with an enchant land+argothian. It's auto-mull if got exploration instead.

..or a 2 lander (25% of possibility). Here having an exploration is useless on turn 1 unless we draw a land on turn 2. Wild growth shines instead.

Let's suppose we have 3 lands (30% of the times). Here Exploration does the same job of Wild growth in the first turns unless we draw a land on turn 2, or 2 consecutive lands on turn 3.

A hand with 4 or more lands is quite strange to analyze, as it's difficult to have 4+ lands, an exploration and an enchantress effect on 7 cards. And I would mulligan this hand if it doesn't contain an enchantress effect.

Enchant land effects become even better if you're mulliganing, As the average number of lands in hand decrease.
It's also worth noting that 2xEploration is ALWAYS useless in the first turns.

Sacred Ground: Good vs Armageddon effects. Enchantress can't usually recover from that. Quite good vs Loam with Devastating Dreams, Pikula and Pox too.

Compost: Black decks are reall a problem for me and this card helps. It's quite good vs Ichorid too, though :)

First things first: Karmic Guide should be read as "Karmic Justice." That would include my inclusion of one in my board. I'll edit that now.

Secondly: the list that I posted is what I'm aplying right now. I'm pretty sure that the Italian meta is slightly different from Syracuse, NY meta, a little. Here, all I am concerned about beating is UWb landstill. So long as my deck doesn't scoop to everything else there, I'm cool with it. At a large tournament I'd revert to the 4 color build, so I could take advantage of black's recuring creature removal and 'yard hate from the board.

I'll respond to your formula (I did read the whole thing - got a gold star or something?) and your list, after my German test.

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

- Humility. In which matchup is that good? Outside faerie stompy and maybe breakfast I can't see it much different from Moat, except it does bad things to your Argothians.
- Eyes of the Wisent. Never thought of those. They can be good in any counter matchup. Side them in vs Landstill, Solidarity and Threshold? is there any other deck i'm missing?
- 4 Explorations. I found 4 too much. The deck plays 22 lands and i feel like 3 are enough.
- Hoofprints. Are them any good in non-landstill matchup? They seem quite slow vs thresh and goblins and not that needed vs combo. However, in retrospect, 4/4s maybe good vs goblin's sharpshooter.

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I'm gonna take a whack at these before LB takes his own. I think that Humility is good in matches where you're more afraid of the abilities of creatures than what your argothians do. In my experience, I can still under Moat against goblins. They just chuck goboos at you and use shapshooter synergy to pwn your face. It's not pretty. Humility hits the following decks, by my approximation:

• Faerie Stompy
• Goblins
• Tarmo-sligh
• Ichorid (maybe? I'm not sure if hordes of 1/1's are worse than 2/2's)
• Breakfast
• Gamekeeper Salvagers (I'm sure that someone plays it)
• Survival
• Survival (Worth listing twice - how did I forget it?)
• Thresh (though it appears that his Eyes tokens might get pwnt by it - I suppose it's a trade.)
• B/x Sui (or control) decks - Negator isn't as scary when he's just a 1/1, and I'll let confidant sit on the table all day if he's just half a grizley bear for full price.

So, like, enough decks. It's not amazing aginst Thresh, but it'll do. I found (testing against UG thresh) that I have some mad problems if they have their counters and stifles at the right time.

And, speaking of Spell Snare (and stifle, I guess) is Hoofprints the best idea? It seems like it's cool to just let it sit, but I don't like it replacing any other win conditions. It seems like a nice, slow, win a little at a time card. But does Enchantress need that? Does it shit the bed in the lategame? I have some doubts about it.

-Eyes of the Wisent - The only reason I could see this being good is that it makes card pairity when your shit gets countered. Or advantage, if you have two. But that's sort of moot. I would like it against Landstill fi they don't have deed, or EE. But since City kind of has wicked anti-synergy with eyes, too. I can play a city, either forcing my opponent to bust his shit or leave it, fearing a seal of disenchant.

-Exploration/Land dealio - I'm pretty unfamiliar with the deck in the tournament setting, but on Workstation I've never had an issue with a 20 land, 4 exploration deck. Although I appreciate your numbers and percent signs, I'm skeptical that 22 is necessary. I could see adding a wild growth, maybe (or a fertile ground or whatever from Lorwyn - the one that taps for one of any color - 'scept that it costs two), but LonelyBaritone's list seems kind of tight. I guess he could move his Karmic Justice to the board in favor of one, but where else would he cut shit? Seems like he's playing for the late game, and you're more concerned about winning by turn five or six.

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Originally Posted by crazyroundman

I'm gonna take a whack at these before LB takes his own. I think that Humility is good in matches where you're more afraid of the abilities of creatures than what your argothians do. In my experience, I can still under Moat against goblins. They just chuck goboos at you and use shapshooter synergy to pwn your face. It's not pretty. Humility hits the following decks, by my approximation:
[LIST][*]Faerie Stompy

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Humility comes down turn 3-4 and doesn't effect equipment. The price also makes FoW painful, since you had to tap out just to cast that one spell.

I think Elephant Grass would be better here.

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[*]Goblins

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Humility isn't good at all against Goblins. It costs 4 mana, double white, which can be problematic in the face of Port/Wasteland. It doesn't kill the army of dudes, so you still need an additional way of dealing with them, and finding that way is difficult when you've cut your draw engine in half.

Elephant Grass is miles better in this match-up.

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[*]Ichorid (maybe? I'm not sure if hordes of 1/1's are worse than 2/2's)

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Arguably. You still need a way to deal with those guys in addition to Humility, and finding that extra piece is made more difficult by cutting your draw engine in half.

Elephant Grass is better in this match-up.

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[*]Breakfast

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4 mana against a fast combo deck with counter back-up? I'd rather have Elephant Grass or Ground Seal.

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[*]Gamekeeper Salvagers (I'm sure that someone plays it)

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One point for Humility. One point also for Ground Seal.

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[*]Survival

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It's better than Grass or Ground Seal here, but it's not actually that strong vs the Burning Wish/Discard builds. They still have Anger, Squee and sorcery disruption.

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[*]Thresh (though it appears that his Eyes tokens might get pwnt by it - I suppose it's a trade.)

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If you can resolve it against them it'll slow them down. The problem is, again, it can also slow you down. You're taking the gamble that your draws/the board situation will be advantageous to you and not them; if you draw more Argothians than Presences, they can still race you.

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[*] B/x Sui (or control) decks - Negator isn't as scary when he's just a 1/1, and I'll let confidant sit on the table all day if he's just half a grizley bear for full price.

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Again, I'd rather have Elephant Grass.

One thing to remember about Elephant Grass is that Black creatures straight up can't attack you, thus making it far superiour than Humility against decks that like Ichorid, Sui varients, and even Cephalid Breakfast with Sutured Ghoul. These decks must get Elephant Grass off the board if they want to attack.

Grass is tehStopzorz vs both Breakfast variants I'm aware of; infinite angels and Ghoul are both unable to get through it.

Here is a look at Luis Scott-Vargas version of Enchantress at worlds.

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

Here is a look at Luis Scott-Vargas version of Enchantress at worlds.

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Besides the 3x City of Solitude, his list was sure really standard. I expected some kind of hidden tech (maybe the 3x City of Solitude is it?) when you labeled it like that.

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Originally Posted by ClearSkies

Besides the 3x City of Solitude, his list was sure really standard. I expected some kind of hidden tech (maybe the 3x City of Solitude is it?) when you labeled it like that.

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I was just throwing up a link so people could see the conversation about legacy, it just happened to be about enchantress.

If someone can make out all the cards, can they post his list? My eyes fail me.

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Originally Posted by Jak.

If someone can make out all the cards, can they post his list? My eyes fail me.

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What I see so far:

8 Enchantress

4 EGrass
2 Confinement
2 Moat
2 Oring

4 Sprawl
2 Exploration

3 SGlove

1 Sacred Ground
1 Aura of Silence
2 Ground Seal
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Words of War

2 Replenish

2 Sanctum

...is what I see.

I only see 1 Moat instead of 2.
I also see 3 City of Solitude. (Probably his tech?)

Everything else, I see the same as C.P.'s post.

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Originally Posted by ClearSkies

I only see 1 Moat instead of 2.
I also see 3 City of Solitude. (Probably his tech?)

Everything else, I see the same as C.P.'s post.

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Forgetting 3 city is my bad, but I still see 2 moat.

I see 2 moats also. His build is interesting. If I would ever play this deck, Confinement would be a 3-4 of. He did well with it anyways. Is this what most of you guys are playing?

I finally see the two Moats. I must have been blind earlier or something. -_-

Yea, I play something like that, minus the City of Solitude and one Moat. Everything else is more or less is the same.

No local tournaments around here though, so I haven't really got the chance to test it in a Legacy Tournament even though the deck itself is sitting in my house somewhere. So, I don't really know how well it works in a tournament setting. =/