[Deck] Survival

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Originally Posted by CynicalSquirrel

Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, etc.

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and Krosan Grip.

I played 4 color up until the EPIC tourney, which has been pretty much since the Running GAGG in the beginning of the year. The mana base really never hurt me, I just cut white because it wasn't giving me enough to justify playing it. Obv with Lorwyn it will be plenty to justify in Teeg and Doran. I wouldn't worry about the 4c mana base, as all you really want is 1 mountain in play anyway, and there's not any hard color requirements besides Doran. Birds are also extremely powerful, and play Quirion Ranger, he makes 4 colors much easier.

Not to mention white gives access to Swords to Plowshares, which happens to be some good given that Tarmogoyf is the best card in the format. Seriously, I honestly believe a deck like this will be tier 1 within the next few months. It just has all the tools necessary to reliably beat every upper-tier deck.

Here's my current list, I think that Tao's Disruptionbase (4 Therapys 3 Extirpates) is stronger than everything else if you play Thoughtseize instead of Therapy and play them along with Wasteland.

1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland

4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
1 Genesis
1 Loxodon Hierarch

3 Survival of the Fittest
4 Deed
4 StoP
3 Sensei Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate

//random Sideboard, something like
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Yixlid Jailer (maybe?)
xyz Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic SLiver

I don't know if the lonely Tribe-Elder is worth the slot, could become Doran, the Smashing Punpkin or another Hierarch. Wasteland in combination with Thoughtseize, Wastetland and Deed is extremely powerful in the main. You can just destroy what annoys you and extirpate it then. Not to mention that decks like ***** or Breakfast tend do croak to thing like Wasteland Tropical/Tundra and Extirpate it then. Kinda mighty.

I don't really like Extirpate/Wasteland in here. Although Extirpate is good against some decks (Breakfast, Ichorid and such) I wouldn't like to have it Mainboard because it is Card Disadvantage most of the time.
I tend to play a way more controlish version myself:

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// Lands

    4 Bayou
    4 Savannah
    3 Forest
    1 Plains
    1 Swamp
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures

    1 Harmonic Sliver
    1 Shriekmaw
    1 Spike Feeder
    1 Genesis
    1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

    1 Birds of Paradise
    3 Sakura-Tribe Elder
    1 Wall of Roots

    4 Tarmogoyf
    1 Doran, the Siege Tower
    3 Eternal Witness
    2 Wall of Blossoms

// Spells

    4 Cabal Therapy
    2 Thoughtseize

    3 Pernicious Deed
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    2 Sensei's Divining Top
    4 Survival of the Fittest

// Sideboard

    4 Engineered Plague
    2 Extirpate
    1 Yixlid Jailer
    1 Pernicious Deed
    4 Gaddock Teeg
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Rule of Law

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Up to the choices:

Now this version clearly is based upon Taos older lists too but they differ a little. For instance I only play 2 Sensei's Divining Tops because they are very mana hungry and because you don't want to see one in the early game at all.

Mainboard

- The lone Birds of Paradise is there to optimize early Survival use. You will find you to be playing a Survival and then to search for Squee and then to have only 1 mana open quite often in the early game, and I don't really want to waste that speed. Also it enables nice plays if in the opening hand (t2 Doran, the Siege Tower for example) but I'd rather have Sakura-Tribe Elder for main ManaSpeed because it ensures you the landdrop (can't be killed like Birds) and is completely awesome against Ichorid Combo.

- Shriekmaw and Spike feeder are there over Bone Shredder and Loxodon Hierarch because reccursion via Genesis is cheaper. Also, the added evasion and body of Shriekmaw are nice. You won't miss the body of the Hierarch often because you have fatter guys (Tarmogoyf, Doran). Another advantage of the Spike Feeder over Hierarch is that the Feeder breaks Goyf stalemates by pumping them.

- The Doran, the Siege Tower is there to replace the Loxodon Hierarch as semi-fat guy. He pumps your Tarmogoyfs and Walls which is nice, but his main purpose is really to be 5/5 for cmc3. Also, he is completely awesome against Ichorid Combo because he shuts down the namesake of the deck turning the Ichorids into 1/1s with haste which isn't that scary really.

- The lone Wall of Roots is there to be fat with Doran and to give you some additional ManaDevelopment in the early game by assuring that you can top and survival for example. This is still a testing slot though.

Sideboard

- Engineered Plague is there to come in for the Goblins Matchup (this deck isn't completely gone yet) and for the Empty the Warrens based combo Matchups. It is also nice against Ichorid (Plague on Zombie, Zombie, Illusion, Horror) and Cephalid Breakfast (Wizard).

- Extirpates are there to come in against Life from the Loam based decks, Ichorid, Combo, Breakfast and all other random decks relying on one or two key cards.

- The Yixlid Jailer is there to be the Survival Silver Bullet that (nearly) completely and singlehandetly wins the game comma tm against Ichorid and Breakfast

- The one Deed is there to supplement the 3 in the main in Matchups such as Ichorid, Empty the Warrens combo and all Aggro-Control decks.

- Gaddocks come in against Dread Return, Combo and Landstill (not against 4c though)

- Thoughtseize is there for Combo and Control

- The lone Rule of Law is a test slot that can be fiddled around with (like another Creature-Sliver Bullet) but I like to have different types of hate cards against combo so that they need to have several tutor effects in order to get rid of all of them.


I'd be glad to hear any sort of comments, especially on how to fit in another one or 2 Thoughtseize into the main (or if this is needed at all).

I personally subscribe to a theory once stated in an article I read that said, in essence, "Walls have no place in any format where combo exists," or something to that effect. Now it'd be "Creatures with Defender," I suppose, but I still subscribe to this theory.

On to the Yixlid Jailer. My question on the Yixlid Jailer is this - How often can you Survival it up before Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast goes off?

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

On to the Yixlid Jailer. My question on the Yixlid Jailer is this - How often can you Survival it up before Ichorid or Cephalid Breakfast goes off?

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In my testing against Ichorid, it never really was a problem... Therapy and Thoughtseize as well as the occasional Swords to Plowshares really slow them down and post board they are very likely to have boarded out the Dread Return package so that they are basically even slower.
I haven't tested all that much against Breakfast because I'm like the only one playing it over here but from my experience playing Breakfast, it isn't really all that fast of a deck especially not if you want to play around Pernicious Deed, discard and Spot Removal.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I personally subscribe to a theory once stated in an article I read that said, in essence, "Walls have no place in any format where combo exists," or something to that effect. Now it'd be "Creatures with Defender," I suppose, but I still subscribe to this theory.

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What would you then replace them with? The problem is that if you replace them with more discard, you have less creatures to start the Survival Chain with... I find this a problem even now already and fear that if you take out creatures, it would get even worse. Basically this would mean that you'd have to replace them with some other creatures but the available options are all pretty narrow (Gaddock Teeg, Glowrider) and either only good against combo or not at all. I guess the Walls are sort of a hole filler to be okay in any matchup (Wall of Blossoms still is an awesome sacrifise to Cabal Therapy) but not really shining in any one.

Pernicious Deed also seem hardly efficient in this deck. In addition to the dissynergy with all your permanents, Survival can play threats that trump 90% of permanents out there (Tarmogoyf, Doran) as well as having five maindeck copies of any answer you may need (Shriekmaw, Harmonic Sliver, graveyard hate guys, lifegain guys).

Most importantly, though, I think there are only two optimal ways to build Survival: either you make sure you find and resolve SotF (which means running tutors, or Blue for digging) or you try to have a deck that is strong even without its namesake enchantment. There are several lists on this thread that do not satisfy either condition, which makes me sad.

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Most importantly, though, I think there are only two optimal ways to build Survival: either you make sure you find and resolve SotF (which means running tutors, or Blue for digging) or you try to have a deck that is strong even without its namesake enchantment. There are several lists on this thread that do not satisfy either condition, which makes me sad.

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I think it's sadder that you complain about decklists then fail to provide reasoning as to why your own is superior to the others posted. Honestly, GBW can't be that far apart from each other. That Pernicious Deed list aside, what exactly are you talking about? Nearly every list in here is capable of performing well, not to mention practically identical.

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Originally Posted by Di

I think it's sadder that you complain about decklists then fail to provide reasoning as to why your own is superior to the others posted.

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I thought my objection was self-explaining - if you run too many cards which do nothing without one of your 4 Survival, then you will be playing with a pile of random cards in those 35% of games where you don't draw the enchantment by turn 6/7 (or when it gets countered, discarded, Needled, etc.).

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Honestly, GBW can't be that far apart from each other.

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90% of the cards will indeed be the same, but that isn't saying much; UGr and UGw Thresh are also only divided by 4 lands and 4 spells in the maindeck.

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That Pernicious Deed list aside, what exactly are you talking about? Nearly every list in here is capable of performing well, not to mention practically identical.

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Taco's list - the one I run - is able to perform very well as a BGw midrange deck, and Joon's looks like it can make a decent The Rock impression. But your list and, to a lesser extent, Der Imaginäre Freund's are clogged down by a bunch of Walls, mana producers, and/or situational one-of. This (IMO) problem can also be found in several posts in the RGBSA thread.

I don't understand why there are people who have such a problem with deed alongside SotF. If you have survival you're not going to be using deed for much, but then if you have surivival you probably don't need deed at all (because you're winning).

If, however, you haven't found a survival, deed can be used to clear the board either to keep you alive or allow you to go on the offensive w/out drawing the deck's namesake at all. Deed just allows the deck to more consistently handle games, with or without survival in play.

This is the same reason I also disagree with large numbers of mana producers. They accelerate you, but into what? Without a survival all that mana can easily go to waste.

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Taco's list - the one I run - is able to perform very well as a BGw midrange deck, and Joon's looks like it can make a decent The Rock impression. But your list and, to a lesser extent, Der Imaginäre Freund's are clogged down by a bunch of Walls, mana producers, and/or situational one-of. This (IMO) problem can also be found in several posts in the RGBSA thread.

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I disagree.

My list

4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis

4 Treefolk Harbringer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Eternal Witness
1 Doran, the Seige Tower
2 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Masticore/Flametongue Kavu
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary



Your list

1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
3 [PR] Eternal Witness
4 [PR] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
1 [RAV] Loxodon Hierarch
1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [OD] Braids, Cabal Minion
1 [PY] Spore Frog
1 [LOR] Doran, the Siege Tower
1 [LOR] Shriekmaw
1 [SH] Spike Feeder

// Spells
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [LOR] Thoughtseize

Not to nitpick here, but you really can't call me, or anyone else out on this. Of the 1ofs I have, every single one is an understandable slot. Doran is an obvious choice, and justifies the running of Treefolk Harbinger. Yes, Harbinger is weaker without Doran, but the card also mana fixes in the slot of Sakura-Tribe Elder. These could easily be replaced by Nimble Mongoose, but the option of getting land and making 3/3, not to mention running a chain of Harbingers -> Doran isn't bad. The only additional mana producer I have is Rofellos. I'm fairly certain that slot doesn't need explaining. 3 of the 1ofs (Masticore, BGH, and an additional Shriekmaw) take the place over many others' maindeck Thoughtsieze slot. This is perfectly fine. I prefer my opponent's Tarmogoyf dead, not discarded and my life total lower. The only other 1ofs in my list are Anger (obvious reasons), the utility slivers (100% necessary), Hierarch (derf), Quirion Ranger, Gaddok Teeg, and Magus of the Moon. Considering I run a 4c build, Ranger is especially important in protection from Wasteland, not to mention I am down to 19 lands and making land drops is huge. IMO, it's a mistake not to run Ranger regardless of the build. Gaddok Teeg has also turned himself into a mainstay. Not running at least one of him in the maindeck is a mistake, considering how useful he is. And Magus of the Moon happens to wreck the entire upper tier, so that is hardly "situational," this coming from the same person running Spore Frog and Loaming Shaman in his list, two obvious situational slots, not to mention Spore Frog is very weak. While you draw your Spore Frog, I might draw into Magus of the Moon. Maybe Frog might be right for the situation, but chances are it won't get you as far as a much better slot.

@Solpugid: I do not have a problem with Deed + SotF; I have a problem with Deed + game plan revolving around dropping cheap permanents. Since Goyfs, removal and discard can handle the majority of threats out there, why not use something like Vindicate instead to deal with the remaining ones without hamstringing yourself?

@Di: You could not know that, since I haven't posted my latest list, but I've cut Braids and moved Spore Frog to the SB exactly because they don't do enough on their own; the slots were filled with a Doran and a Shriekmaw, efficient creatures and removal. This left me with only Harmonic Sliver and Squee as bad slots (Loaming Shaman is a 3cc 3/2 that shrinks Tarmogoyf and Mongoose; Spike Feeder wins Goyf fights and trades favourably).

Your deck makes a ton of effort to splash red, for 1) 1x Magus of the Moon, which manhandles Loam and may wreck Landstill and nonred Thresh if they don't have a counterspell or a basic Plains/Swamp; 2) 1x Anger, which lets you do fun things if you have SotF online, and is a nigh dead draw otherwise.
To gain these bonuses you have to run: a generally weaker land base (more so because Magus asks you to run basics); 4 Treefolk Harbinger, the first one good if Doran lives and the others terrible; 1 Rofellos, whose mana can only be productively funneled into SotF or Masticore; 1 Quirion Ranger, a hasty BoP when you're having mana troubles, a win-uber-more with win-more Rofellos, a mediocre draw otherwise. As an added bonus, unrelated to the manabase, you have Big Game Hunter, which is smaller and more narrow than Shriekmaw, although it does offer better synergy with Cabal Therapy.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

Most importantly, though, I think there are only two optimal ways to build Survival: either you make sure you find and resolve SotF (which means running tutors, or Blue for digging) or you try to have a deck that is strong even without its namesake enchantment.

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I agree with this mostly. Fortunately, Tarmogoyf has largely allowed us to improve in both of these areas.

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Originally Posted by Di

I think it's sadder that you complain about decklists then fail to provide reasoning as to why your own is superior to the others posted. Honestly, GBW can't be that far apart from each other. That Pernicious Deed list aside, what exactly are you talking about? Nearly every list in here is capable of performing well, not to mention practically identical.

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I strongly disagree with this. There are two completely different BGW decks out there - The BGW Survival Control that packs Deeds, Walls, and plays more defensively, and the BGW Survival Midrange (Which is what I run), which seeks to turn aggro much earlier. The decks are alike only in the fact that they seek to drop a Survival, then get every Tarmogoyf ever printed in play and smash face. The difference is what they do when they don't get Survivals. The former deck plays control. The latter plays aggro-control. Both end up being rather effective at it (Though I still think the walls in the control build are crap,) but they play completely differently.

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Originally Posted by Der_imaginäre_Freund

What would you then replace them with? The problem is that if you replace them with more discard, you have less creatures to start the Survival Chain with... I find this a problem even now already and fear that if you take out creatures, it would get even worse. Basically this would mean that you'd have to replace them with some other creatures but the available options are all pretty narrow (Gaddock Teeg, Glowrider) and either only good against combo or not at all. I guess the Walls are sort of a hole filler to be okay in any matchup (Wall of Blossoms still is an awesome sacrifise to Cabal Therapy) but not really shining in any one.

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Double copies have been dynamite for me. I think 22 is the absolute bare minimum of creatures you can safely run without SDT and 20's the minimum with, so I wouldn't replace the walls with noncreatures.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Double copies have been dynamite for me. I think 22 is the absolute bare minimum of creatures you can safely run without SDT and 20's the minimum with, so I wouldn't replace the walls with noncreatures.

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I'll try Dark Confidants in their slot for a while... I always wanted to play more draw so that you wan't get into the topdeck mode that quickly without a Survival but I am sceptic as creatures don't tend to live long in this format, especially not Confidants (Walls replace themself so if your opponent removes them you actually made CA).

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Originally Posted by Nihil

But your list and, to a lesser extent, Der Imaginäre Freund's are clogged down by a bunch of Walls, mana producers, and/or situational one-of. This (IMO) problem can also be found in several posts in the RGBSA thread.

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I don't understand this... 4 mana fixers are included in like every list (I chose to run Sakura-Tribe Elders over Birds of Paradise because, as stated, they aren't vulnerable to creature removal and are gold against Ichorid) and the Walls are sort of a flexible slot as I also explained. The deck can do fairly well without a Survival playing like a Control deck which the Walls suport greately (the opponent has to overextend into your Deeds).
Also, the only situational one-offs I can see in my list are basically the one Squee (duh, although this can be replaced by Krovikan Horror if you can cope with not having the granted CA) and the lone Genesis which is there to completely wreck the Control Matchup (Landstill and the like) even without a Survival (their clock is slow enough that you can wait to have a Cabal Therapy in the grave prior to playing it).
Also, I don't understand why everybody is unhappy with Pernicious Deed... I mean this card is what makes Survival work without its namesake. It is basically the reason why you have a fighting chance against Storm Combo (Empty the Warrens) pre-board and just plain and simply buys you the time you need to find your Survival against any other deck. You have to understand that this deck plays out way more controlish than any other version... you just don't play a Tarmogoyf or any other creature 'because you can' if you plan on blowing up a deed later on... you have to know your matchups for this, but it basically works.

Plague Spitter (With a Therapy) or Orzhov Pontiff could do the same thing as Deed in killing ETW tokens.

In reality, Deed isn't all that bad. It certainly covers a lot of situations that Survival struggles to handle otherwise. In the end, though, it just comes down to how you play the deck. Versions without Deed and without Walls take a much more aggressive approach.

It's also worth noting that on the play, Duress/Therapy/Seize followed by Teeg is better against ETW than Deed is, and that on the draw, Pernicious Deed (Or Pontiff or Spitter for that matter) will be too slow to save you unless you have a Birds of Paradise in hand.

EDIT: Or a Spore Frog, I suppose, if you run one.

I would like to make the argument that deed is a dead draw once you have your engine going, but this is one of the decks that usually could care less what it draws once it gets going.

On to relevant talk...

Playing 1-of's is not making the deck less consistent without survival. It depends which 1-of's you are playing and for what reason. Playing Harmonic and Darkheart are synergistic, and playing darkheart on top of 1 loxodon/Feeder just makes your threat diversity better. They fill the same slot, so it is more of a 2-of with a different name. BGH is nuts. If you haven't played with it do so, cuz it's the tits.

I can't imagine ever adding Plague Spitter to survival either... it kills half your board on your upkeep, and most of your board if your opponent kills it after it's upkeep trigger. No BoP's, Rofellos, Rangers, slivers, shredders, BGH's, or any of the asses of 2 would survive.

I actually haven't been liking Big Game Hunter. At all. At first, I thought it'd be great due to all the Tarmogoyfs running around and the instant-speed thing against Cephalid Breakfast, but otherwise he's completely terrible. It really doesn't kill any other creature in the format, and without Survival the 1BB 1/1 is by far the weakest point the deck has. At least with the rest of the removal creatures they will either kill the creature for sure, or be a reasonable beatstick. I'm replacing him with an FTK for now, but it could possibly change to a Fire Imp.

Fwiw, my list can handle Tarmogoyf just fine without it. 4 StP, 2 Shriekmaw, and 4 Tarmogoyf of my own are plenty enough.

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Originally Posted by Di

GBWr Survival

...List...

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I have been playing Di's list (+1 Doran, -1 BGH, and Masticore over FTK) and I am really liking the way the deck plays. I think that the Treefolk-->Doran is a damn good secondary win (esp. if you have the Cabal Therapy to back it up). I don't think that this deck can support FTK well enough, many times have I have hit Masticore, but if it had been FTK, I would have been unable to play it. This may sound odd with 4 BoP, 4 TH (Treefolk Harbingers), and 6 sac lands, but the other color requirements are almost always more pressing than getting that lone Tiaga, and BoP is rather fragile. I have not been missing BGH at all, and have never needed more removal (btw, the removal suite in the deck is amazing).

I hardly see how Harbringer, harbringer, harbringer, harbringer, Doran is good.
It takes infinte turns to set up, and if their comming down on you with several creatures, simply drawing an 0/3 wall won't do anything but delay the inevitable. Chaining them all into play costs a lot of mana, and a lot of card slots.

I know this is kinda random, but has anyone considered U/G/B Survival control?

You lose anger, but the BGW builds lost that already, and the only thing you really lose from white it StP.

Blue provides FoW, Intuition, Vedalken Shackles, (for survivals and tutoring), and a Vesuvan Shapshifter package (maybe). I think that Vesuvan Shapeshifter could be a really powerful card in survival types of decks because of the tutoring and amount of mana you produce, as well as the depth and breadth of utility creatures played.

You could run a single Fathom Seer and/or Brine Elemental for the lategame, copy stuff like Angel of Despair or Shriekmaw by casting Shapshifter. Also, Morphs give you a good way to play control regardless of what colors you have, as you can just play them as a 2/2 dude and chump or trade, and then recur them back with genesis.

I'm not really sure how well this would (or wouldn't) work out, but it's an idea. It seems like Shapeshifter could provide a whole new aspect of versatility to the deck, and give outs against early threshold beats (copy their 'Goyf or mongoose). It seems like an interesting idea even if it's not practical, and might be worth some discussion.