[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

I didn't say Jet was crap, it's just that I always have the mirror in mind and Jet isn't all too great in that. Vs piledriver, the card is a house--- actually vs. goblins the card is a house. Also as wasted life points out, the synergy with predict is nuts. It didn't occur to me to use both, as I don't splash red. Although I'll tell you, I use Intuition, so AK is very good for me (I mean for fuck's sake, its an instant that draws nutty amounts of cards). I mean, not everyone will agree with my method, but this way, I use less cantrips and more business spells. Also Intuition, even if it's not for Ak, should give you threshold on the spot + a card in hand.

BTW, Lego, Jet, Brainstorm, Serum Visions should set up your predicts most of the time and occasionally you can use it as an Anti-Tutor (Of course I mean the Mirage tutors). The only time that you don't set up the predict is if it comes at a shitty time (e.g. Topdecked) or if you dont have the mana to... which then you'd be fucked anyway. Also, I'm fine with less people playing AK, as mirrors with AK usually get out of hand. I played a game where I AK'd for 6 and M.Maged AK afterwards as I used my last one. While I think you should use Predict as it is way more consistent than AK, AK can refill your hand when in a rough spot, and is generally a better topdeck than predict or magma jet.

I didn't mean any ill towards Jet and while I agree that it is one of the most savage burn spells (though it is better suited for r/x decks and not mono color), I don't splash red, so I have to compensate with more raw card drawing power. It's up to you: More Synergy = Less Single Card Brokenness.

Yeah, I like Predict better than AK for this deck. One thing is that in your comparison you didnt really take into account that a set up Predict costs 3 mana and 2 cards, to draw 3 cards and put 3 cards into the 'yard. So if your playing it to it's max potential then its costing you more mana and is dependant on your hand. AK alone is a better card, but with the synergy of playing Brainstorm and Serum Visions (plus Magma Jet, Sleight of Hand, etc...) I feel Predict wins out as a better card in NQG.

I would like to point out that I have been strongly advocating Magma Jet over Fire/Ice for a long time, since the old UGr Gro thread, because its card quality scrying and great synergy with Predict make it as if it was a cantrip-burn spell alone and a spicy setup spell if you also have predict. Fire/Ice is very rarely better that Magma Jet, except in the mirror when you need to not die. But if you are in the position where you are trying to avoid lethal damage, you are probably not in a great position anyway.

Mind Harness is not nearly as spicy as it seems, for these reasons:
1) You generally will have 3-4 mana in play when you cast it, because at that point you can afford the upkeep for a few turns to get some use out of your stolen dude.
2) Your opponent isn't retarded, and will not swing his piledrivers into the warchief you just stole so that you get a 2-1. More likely, he'll burn out/StP/kill the stolen creature or wait for you to lose the ability to pay the upkeep and just get it back. Because waiting for 3 turns while your opponent develops his board and you pay the upkeep is not a way to win.
3) Legacy's Allure does what this card does, except it does it better. It comes down early and in 1-2 turns it can steal all the goblins you could want (but this time its permanent and doesn't tie up your mana). You can wait for a while and have it accumulate counters while the game progresses, and then use it to steal your mirror match opponent's finishers. If you think that creature stealing will help you, I believe that Legacy's Allure would be much more effective.

This is a sideboard strategy that I have been thinking about that may allow you to meta-suprise your opponents and gain a victory: Since many Gro players are running Crypts in their boards in order to win the mirror match, they cannot also Needle the Crypts, because then they render there hate useless. So instead, you board Phyrexian Furnaces and Needle their Crypts, because if you start furnacing turn 1 or 2, you should be able to keep them off of threshold for several more turns, and additional furnaces in play as the game progresses will make it harder and harder for your opponent to gain threshold, all the while you are safe because you Needled their hate. <--Its just something to think about.

What is the optimal number of creatures to run in Gro? How about burn spells? Lille saw decks with 12 or more creatures maindeck, and 8 or more burn spells as well. What matchups does this help? What matchups does this hurt?

I myself too run Phrexian furnace, but I don't run needle or stifle in my deck. I feel that they are reactive cards, sore suited towards U/g/w gro. I ended up cutting stifle from my list because I never wanted it when I had it. Stifleing 1 fetch or a ringleader shouldn't throw off your opponents tempo enough that you should run it. As for needle it's a artifact that makes naturalize and disenchant useful after game 2.
@ dsg123456789- I too run alot of burn and think Magma Jet is fairly retarded in U/g/r gro.

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What is the optimal number of creatures to run in Gro? How about burn spells? Lille saw decks with 12 or more creatures maindeck, and 8 or more burn spells as well. What matchups does this help? What matchups does this hurt?

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NQW- Not Quite White

Lands
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
1 Mountain

Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
2 Fledgling Dragon

Burn Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet

Counters
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
Draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Predict

Sideboard
4 Pyroclasm
3 Winter Orb
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Naturalize
2 Phyrexian Furnace

If a mod feels that I was spamming, please delete the list. But I run 12 burn spells, giving me an easyier way to win. Running 12 burn spells helps out against alot of match-ups RGSA, ATS, goblins, aggro in general. Also helps against combo giving you a way faster clock. Running 12 burn spells only hurts against big creatures such as exalted angel, enforcer, tog, and any form of reanimator.

Personally, I run 10 creatures, as I believe its the optimal number. Keep in mind, I play Intuition which, if you didn't draw into a guy for some bizzare reason, will give it to you (EOT, I might add).
I wouldn't replace Fire/Ice w/ Jet for one reason - FOW. Playing both is fine. Here's my build, feel free to flame, but only after testing it out. Thanks, dsg, I think Legacy's Allure is better tech.

Old School Gro

4 Trop Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Yavimaya Coast (the G/U shockland once it is released)
2 Island
4 Quirion Dryad
3 Meddling Mage
3 Mystic Enforcer
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Serum Visions
3 Daze
4 FOW
4 Counterspell
2 Intuition
4 AK
3 Cunning Wish
2 Stifle
1 Psionic Blast

Sideboard:
1 Berserk
1 Disenchant
2 Null Rod
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Hail Storm
1 Tivadar's Crusade
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Legacy's Allure
1 Misdirection
1 Oxidize
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Honor the Fallen
1 Stifle

Constructive criticism is fine, but don't just randomly flame, give me your reasoning. Note: I think my board is too janky, but I guess that happens when playing wish. Can someone help me clean this up?

Cleaning it up is simple. Stop playing Dryad. That means you don't need Wish--> Berserk anymore, which means you can cut Wish. I am not trying to flame, but other than a sentimental attachment, there is no reason to run Dryad. It has been proven time and time again to suck. A few other thoughts:

There's no reason to run the pain lands over basics. They are not fetchable, and still die to Wasteland. Add the life loss and you have an easy cut. Run 1x Plains 1x Forest instead, and you can cast anything on basics alone. Psy Blast is interesting, but how often do you really need it? I would also switch the #s on Counterspell and Serum Visions.

Intuitioning for creatures seems absolutely awful-- you thin your already creature-light deck of threats and most of the time you won't be able to intuition for a specific guy anyways. Intuition in general seems extremely cuttable-- follow Mr. N's suggestions and cut the cute stuff to make your deck more efficient. There's no reason not to run 4 swords.

I took out pithing needle in my version after I realized I would rather just win. I keep the Pithing needles in the board in case I really feel like I need them in a matchup and put Mongooses back into the maindeck. This allows for plenty of more ways to win faster.
The main logic was that this deck is best mid game and pithing needle stalls the other deck into the late game whereas attacking with a 3/3 puts the pressure on to end the game.

Gimbles, I've found room for both MD. That makes me curious as to what cantrips you're running, because you probably are running them in the slots I use for needles. I've cut the AKs from my build, and have decided to run these cantrips:

4x Brainstorm
4x Serum Visions
4x Predict
2x Sleight

I may go 3x Predict 3x Peek 0xSleight if I decide to keep Needle main, because even without the reach, Peek is nuts with Needle and Mage MD.

I'll try out an alternate build w/o, although vs. the mirror twice at GP Philly, Dryad went all the way vs. their smaller guys. I beat 1 and tied with the other, because we ran out of time (we were mostly drawing cards and trading guys). I'll see what I can do to clean it up. BTW, psi blast is the most unexpected card ever. At GP, I killed someone who got out a Humility (It was the 2nd one he cast and I didn't have a counter, he was already in single digits and swinging with my generic 1/1's and Psiblast was GG). Also, I needed a redundant green source that also gave me blue (forests dont tap for U), this way I can just shit on Goblins with the Hail Storms. Either way, I need to test both builds a bit more before coming to any conclusions.

I've come to the conclusion from my personal testing that Mongoose is needed in the deck (plus I just can't not play an untargetable 3/3 for G). I currently have him playing the role of Meddling Mage in the main, with Mage in the side, but that's only because I need to find 3 more mages. If I run Mage and Needle main, I'll test out Peek, I had forgotten about that one (I ran it once in Trix, just to mess with people).

I am seriously considering switching to the red version though. Has anyone done extensive testing with this? It seems to me like it would give you a much better match against Pikula which, for better or worse, should become a metagame prescence. Better game against Pikula, Goblins, Elves, etc., worse game against Solidarity, Nausea, Iggy Pop, etc. does that sound about right? How does it do (compared to the white splash) against the control decks like Landstill, MWC, and Rift, as well as things that are starting to get big like Dredge-a-Tog. There were some thoughts posted earlier about it, but no one seems to have done any extensive testing.

If no one has done the testing, I'll throw together a gauntlet and run the white splash and the red splash through it and let you know how my results go. I feel like something like that has already been done though.

Well Lego, if you play the red version, you have Fire, which is a house against goblins. Elves is non-existent anyway and I don't see any difference vs. Pikula homebrew. However, if you cut white, you lose out on Meddling mage, which is good against (almost) everything. Solidarity/IGG loses to Mage (this is the truth; no matter how much they say about ridding the mage).
Vs. straight up control though, both builds should have an egde. The white build can STP big guys and Mage their nasty removal or their STPs (although you then, don't want to be holding any) and if you play the red version, there's the chance that you can burn them out. Vs. Dredgeatog or Straight up B/U tog, the white version is better because of STP and Mage (you're not going to burn a Psychatog to death, although Ice can give you enough time to win. I would stick with either one; just don't play 4 colors if you live in the states because Wastelands were way more prevalent than at Lille; I mean when you play 4 color w/ that many non-basics, you're screaming: "WASTELAND ME". If you rip land, its OK, but when you don't see one for a while, you 'll probably die.

I'm aware that Elves isn't a presence, I just always like to include it in my deck analysis ;) In theory it's got some game though. But on to more pertanent dicussion.

The red version should in theory do much better against Pikula because it's got Pyroclasm, and Fledgling Dragon doesn't die to Perish. I haven't played the matchup, but on paper the red splash has a much better matchup against Pikula than the white splash.

My current cantrip setup is:
4 Brainstorm
3 Serum Vision
3 Mental Note
4 AK

I Don't feel that I need the fourth mental note and I really dislike Serum vision thanks to it's sorcery speed no matter how good it may be. AK over predict has been tried and tried again and at the moment AKs have been absolutely amazing for me. If I ever want to stop an enlightened tutor I'll just counter it.

I'm not sure if anyone realizes this but Pikula can be alot easier if you protect your lands with Dazes. This makes the Pikula matchup somewhat easier, (at least the testing that I have done) however, this still doesn't make the matchup a walk in the park thanks to their hand disruption. My goal when playing them is to get an untargetable on the board as soon as possible and just take chunks out of their life while struggling not to lose permanents and CA. If you can stop their initial burst than you should be able to answer their topdecks without too much difficulty.

If you're running Mage MD, name Vindicate game 1, and If they don't have one yet, Cursed Scroll. This basically shuts them off from killing your men. After that, you should win through their card advantage anyway. Dazing a Vindicate or Sinkhole targeting a land is one of my favorite plays. Sometimes, they even pay the 1, to only have it countered on resolution anyway.

@ Gimbles, finally, someone agrees with me on AK usage.
@ Mr. nightmare - Daze is a free counter against any LD, but Misdirectioning Hymn/Sinkhole is even funner (if that's even a real word)
Also, usually once their scroll is online, the only guy thay can kill is Mage - while your other guys continue to smash face. Perish on the other hand is a problem, but I'm not about to play Spectral Shift or some bullshit like that to stop them. This does give me a better reason to play red version though.
In the mirror, who has the more favorable matchup (game 1), Red or White build?

My draw is:
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Predict
4 Brainstorm

I want to cut 2 of either mental note/serum visions but I don't know which and I don't really know what to put in for them. Here's my list, if you have any suggestions for what to put in for them, please be my guest, and I don't have Pithing Needles, that's why you don't see them, and I don't think they're that amazing enough for me to get them, although if more wastelands show up I'll probably have to get some.
17 land
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Windwept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

11 creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Mystic Enforcer

10 counters
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterspell

6 removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Chain of Vapor (there's some random crap in my metagame, like worship and stuff and this is my only answer to it game 1, plus it helps against reanimator which is very popular in my area)

16 draw
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Predict
4 Brainstorm

15 sideboard
2 Worship
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Naturalize

I think the white version is much better against Pikkula because of Mystic Enforcer's "cant touch this" ability haha. Of course you might not use him in your build so I don't know. He's a house against the deck so I think the white version would be probably 60:40 against the deck.

For the mirror I definitely think white has the advantage. Red's burn can only go to your case, since it cant kill mongoose, warebear, or enforcer. The white version has more draw usually and therefore faster threshhold/card avantage.

@ Magic Trick: if you want to go down to 14 Cantrips, I would definitely drop the Mental Note over Serum Visions. Serum Visions is, in my opinion, one of the most powerful cards in the deck, especially if you're already playing Predict.

As for the Pikula matchup, I don't think Mystic Enforcer's pro-black is nearly as important as you think, even less so because they are often playing Perish in the side. This, and Pyroclasm in red give the red splash a much better matchup, at least on paper. It's certainly a very hard matchup, and the testing results I've gotten are all vastly different, so I'm assuming it comes down to playskill a lot.

The BW Confidant matchup is really based on opening hands. Fighting off their early threats is tough. Having Dazes for their LD and cantrips such as brainstorm to throw off their discard can mean alot. Once that initial rush of disruption is overwith like I said before, if you can stabilize your hand you can easily pick up a win as your CA is vastly superior to theirs.

Has anyone on the boards thought about a 1x dual in thier deck? Like a savannah or taiga? Kadilak and myself were talking about it and have found it turns hands that you would mull into playable ones. I think everyone knows what I'm talking about, those hands when you get 2 bears, a mage, cantrips, an island and a fetch. Or fire/ice, magma jet, bear, goose, island, and a fetch. Just wierd situations that happen to occur alot, I've found play 1 non-blue dual helps out alot and others should test and see if they like the results or not.
As for the deadguy match-up I sit down and think oh great,... they got the bye. I've never lost to the deck in a tournament, brainstorm or serum visions turn 1-3 usually screws up them blowing thier load. Daze works on this also, keep confidant off the table and don't let shade resolve and it's a walk in the park.