Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I do recommend the singleton Tormod's Crypt in the side, if heading into that kinda of metagame. Aggro Loam plays Chalices of the Void in large part to stop Extirpate, and you won't always have Explosives to get rid of it (or if you do, you may want to save them against Seismic Assault or something).
Also, Crypt is invaluable against Ichorid - Extirpate is what wins you the long game, but a single Crypt activation can buy you enough time to get there if they have a decent start and you don't have the perfect hand. Even though you only have three copies of it postboard (you SB out Cunning Wish), Ichorid is a tough enough matchup that it's worth it.
@DiF: Glad to see you too found Slaughter Pact to be near-useless.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Although I know that UWb Landstill should be the stronger 3c build (as everybody plays it in my meta), is there a competitive Ubg list everyone (or most people) can agree on?
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Umm...some version of Voroshstill? At least it's the one that had the most success in those colors.
But I don't know if that list is outdated or not...so ask Bardo :wink:
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shimster
Although I know that UWb Landstill should be the stronger 3c build (as everybody plays it in my meta), is there a competitive Ubg list everyone (or most people) can agree on?
Um, something that "everyone can agree on?" Since, this is the Internet, I'll assume you're kidding. ;)
With U/b/g Landstill still, I think there are more "good ideas," than "generally accepted lists," given how infrequently it is played in tournament settings. Which isn't to say it's bad or anything, just not terribly popular.
Preliminarily, I would ask:
1) Tarmogoyf: Yes or No?
2) Counterbalance: Yes or No?
Assuming you said “No” to both of these question, you might start off with the basic Landstill template and fill in the slots with the best cards available.
Land: 24-25
Card Drawing: 10-12
Board Control: 10-12
Stack Control: 8-12
“Stuff” (Crucible, etc.): 0-4
To fill in these categories, I’ll refer you to one of my Landstill articles (Section VIII).
"Green Splash
More than a few have flirted with the power of green in Landstill over the past few years, but it only reached widespread recognition after a few successful runs of the four-color BHWC (now BHWW) Landstill in some large tournaments in the latter half of 2006. When paired with black, Landstill gains access to Pernicious Deed, which answers all manner of sundry and menacing threats in wilds of Legacy. Lastly, Krosan Grip has become the de facto weapon of choice for destroying Counterbalance, among other obnoxious enchantments and artifacts in this format.
1. Removal
- Pernicious Deed (with Black)
- Krosan Grip
- Drop of Honey
2. Win Conditions
- Garruk Wildspeaker
- Tarmogoyf
- Nantuko Monastery (with White)
- Krosan Tusker
- Gigapede
3. Sideboard and Other Maindeck Options
- Life from the Loam
- Living Wish
- Loaming Shaman
- Moment’s Peace
- Trygon Predator
Black Splash
It took a surprising amount of time for the Legacy community to come around to the power of black spells in Landstill. Apart from the periodic success of BHWC’s 4-color model, the first instance of black-splash Landstill making the Top 8 at a major U.S. Legacy tournament, to my knowledge, goes to Scott Scheurer (Overlord95), who piloted U/b Landstill (a.k.a. "Duck Hunt") to the Top 8 at a 54-player tournament in Geneseo, New York on February 17, 2007. By now, the power that black cards offer Landstill should be obvious.
1. Removal
- Pernicious Deed (with Green)
- Damnation
- Smother
- Diabolic Edict
- Chainer’s Edict
- Slaughter Pact
- The Abyss
- Innocent Blood
- Decree of Pain
- Crime / Punishment (with White and/or Green)
2. Win Conditions
- Haunting Echoes
- Tombstalker
- Shriekmaw
- Liliana Vess
3. Sideboard and Other Maindeck Options
- Dark Confidant
- Duress
- Engineered Plague
- Extirpate
- Leyline of the Void
- Phyrexian Negator
- Thoughtseize
- Yixlid Jailer
E. Colorless Maindeck and Sideboard Non-Land Cards
- Chalice of the Void
- Crucible of Worlds
- Culling Scales
- Engineered Explosives
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Powder Keg
- Sensei’s Divining Top
- Tormod’s Crypt
- Vedalken Shackles
Other Maindeck and Sideboard Lands
- Academy Ruins
- Dust Bowl
- Faerie Conclave
- Maze of Ith
- Mutavault
- The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
- Tolaria West
- Treetop Village
- Volrath’s Stronghold
- Wasteland"
If you go the no-Goyf/CB route, you might go with something like this:
U/b/g Landstill
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Stifle
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Academy Ruins
Meh, doesn’t look too bad for a 2-minute deck-building exercise.
The advantages here (over other color configurations): Pernicious Deed, stable mana (relative to 4c), ability to reliably run Wasteland/Crucible (compared 4c), excellent (black) sideboard options. Disadvantages are having to use the clearly subpar black removal (Smother, Edicts) over Swords to Plowshares.
If you wanted to see what CB/Top/Goyf looks like, you might try the most recent version of “Vorosh.”
”Vorosh”
U/g/b Landstill with Counter-Top/Goyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Smother
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Breeding Pool
Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
3 Engineered Plague
3 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
If you want to squeeze in Swords to Plowshares, you can drop the Smothers, Crucible(s) and Wasteland to make room for StP and Tundras. You’ll also want to max the blue fetchland count.
“Four-Color Vorosh”
by Bardo
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Crime & Punishment
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
One of the enjoyable experiences about Landstill, in general, is the flexibility, openness of form and design potential. Good times.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Um, something that "everyone can agree on?" Since, this is the Internet, I'll assume you're kidding. ;)
You've got me there. ;D
As far as testing goes, I don't like the antisynergie between Goyf/CB and Pernicious Deed.
My build is focussed on fighting the Landstill mirror (mostly UWb):
1 Gigapede
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Island
2 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Or Academy Ruins...
Anyway i've played every version of this deck and i got something to say:
- UBg version: Pernicious Deed is more castable than UWbg, but Landstill without Humility doesn't go so far... Humility is an AMAZING winning condition, against a lot of decks: LFTL Control, Survival, Goblins, Threshold, White Weenie, Madness, Slivers, Zoo, Rock...
- UWb: yes Humility, no Deed, yes Wrath of God. Wrath is good (God is good :)) but it means nothing agianst Mishra in mirror match. And Deed destroys Survival OTF, Seismic Assault, Counterbalance, Chalice, Trinisphere, Equipments...
- UWbg: Deed AND Humility. The best path to victory.
I'm running this list:
1x Eternal dragon
4x Standstill
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Humility
2x Decree Of Justice
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Brainstorm
4x Counterspell
4x Force Of Will
4x Swords To Plowshares
2x Cunning Wish
2x Fact Or Fiction
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
2x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Nantuko Monastery
1x Wasteland
1x Tolaria West
I think that Stifle is not so useful in this deck. If you run only 2 of 'em you'll never see it if you really need it. And i don't know what can i take out for 3-4 Stifle slots... If i'll pull out some card, i'll do to put in Spell Snare...
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
I really like this list but the only thing that worries me is the two basic lands. I guess that's just the trade-off... more powerful cards for a much weaker mana base.
Is it worth it to even run two? If Blood Moon lands I see no way outta of it. If Magus lands, you need the single plains. And no matter what you're going to have waste targets out there.
It's probably a fair trade off in power, but I always worry about the manabase.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@Asfalto
I like your lists. I play nearly the same list.
I tested the tolaria west, but I didnt like it. So I play the 2nd wasteland instead of the toaria west.
Therefor I cutted one FoF for the third EE. The explosives can do so much and they are helping u in the early game. 4cc for the FoF are in same cases too slow.
At the moment I'm not sure to play the e-dragon or the 25th land.
The rest of the deck is perfect: the manabase etc.
I would never play stifle in this deck, when I want to add a card, it would be spell snares, too. But there is simply no slot.
greetz
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
torgar
I really like this list but the only thing that worries me is the two basic lands. I guess that's just the trade-off... more powerful cards for a much weaker mana base.
Is it worth it to even run two? If Blood Moon lands I see no way outta of it. If Magus lands, you need the single plains. And no matter what you're going to have waste targets out there.
It's probably a fair trade off in power, but I always worry about the manabase.
The two basics are to be able to cast cunning wish and BEB on blood moon game one or just BEB the blood moon game two. The plains is to seed spark (if you run that) blood moon or StP magus.
@Asfalto, i would probably cut your 2 FoF in favor of 1x Deed and another land, Probably a tundra to better cast humility and decree.
The list I'm currently testing, reflecting the changes discussed on the last page is this:
Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice
creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon
enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility
artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
The two basics are to be able to cast cunning wish and BEB on blood moon game one or just BEB the blood moon game two. The plains is to seed spark (if you run that) blood moon or StP magus.
@Asfalto, i would probably cut your 2 FoF in favor of 1x Deed and another land, Probably a tundra to better cast humility and decree.
The list I'm currently testing, reflecting the changes discussed on the last page is this:
Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice
creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon
enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility
artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pernicious are too much, considering that this deck is basically a UW with a bg toolbox... It's not so cool having 1/2 deed in your hand with Tundra, Mishra and a fetch (for example). You need to play it a little later in the game, when you're already in control mode and with a lot of lands in play. STP, EE and Humility may stop your opponent long enough, while making your mana country a little more consistent.
25th land may be, and if i'll choose this way, i'll put in one Academy Ruins... Anyway i'm sure that Fact or Fiction is one of the best drawing boost in Legacy and you can pitch it on Force: i think that 20 blue cards, including FoW itself, is the right way.
I pulled out monoPlains for 4th Tundra. Better choice considering 4x Counterspell...
I don't like Seed Spark. Dismantling Blow is much better. Do not need some token, better to pay 3 mana instead 4 with an amazing kicker ability (that i almost use only in mirror match).
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Hi, thats my current 4c list:
Land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
Instants [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice
creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon
enchantments [9]
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility
artifacts [5]
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Dismanting Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Engineered Plague
Maindeck:
I like the 3/3 split between EE and Deed.
I'm not sure about the e-dragon. With e-dragon and 24 or 25 lands (+1 tropical).
I have one free slot, I mostly play here a single FoF.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Alright, i need a bit of help making a deck for a tournament in a few days. 5 packs and an FNM card are on the line so its really no big deal. I haven't played non-MWS magic in a while, so this is really just for fun because i miss tournaments, but i want the best deck possible. I've been playing the hell out of this deck on MWS though and i'm eager to play some real opponents.
My ideal list is this:
Land [25]
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
Instants [18]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Cunning Wish
sorceries [2]
2 Decree of Justice
creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon
enchantments [10]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
2 Humility
artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
sideboard [15]
4 Meddling Mage
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Seed Spark
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Tormod's Crypt
But the problem is I'm missing:
1x Underground Sea
1x Polluted Delta
1x Humility
1x Cunning Wish
2x Decree of Justice
and on the side im missing
3x Meddling Mage
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Tormods Crypt
1x Seed Spark
I have 1 humility and 1 cunning wish, but i don't know if i should run them as 1 ofs?
I think decree of justice will be replaced by Fact or Fiction, Underground Sea for an Island, Polluted Delta for a plains, but i don't know what to do with one wish and one humility.
Seed spark will become krosan grip, Tormods will become engineered plague, I have no substitute for pulse of the fields, maybe i could run uh... Submerge? i have that and liked it in faerie stompy when i played that deck.
Alternatively I wouldn't run my single wish and make a more basic SB which, based on cards I have, would be like: 4 extirpate, 3 BEB, 3 hydroblast, 1 meddling mage, 4 gilded drakes (can you think of a more ghetto SB?)
Replacing medding mages will be hard, maybe gilded drake? (I have them)
Other cards i have (that i no longer run but could fill up slots) Stifle, Edict, additional Monasteries, Wrath (i have one), disenchant.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but leaving 75% of my magic cards in storage was a really stupid idea.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
This is what i plan on running if i don't hear any input.
'Ghetto 4c Landstill'
Land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
Instants [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cunning Wish
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Diabolic Edict (debatable, stifle or ponder could also be in this slot)
creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon
enchantments [9]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
1 Humility
artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
sideboard [15]
1 Meddling Mage
3 Gilded Drake
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Engineered Plague
If the mail comes, i'll put a second mage in and probably swap out plains for the tundra i'll be getting, but those two cards are all i can get in time.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frenger
This is what i plan on running if i don't hear any input.
'Ghetto 4c Landstill'
Land [24]
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Nantuko Monastary
Instants [22]
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cunning Wish
3 Fact or Fiction
2 Diabolic Edict (debatable, stifle or ponder could also be in this slot)
creatures [1]
1 Eternal Dragon
enchantments [9]
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Standstill
1 Humility
artifacts [4]
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
sideboard [15]
1 Meddling Mage
3 Gilded Drake
4 Extirpate
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Krosan Grip
1 Submerge
1 Engineered Plague
If the mail comes, i'll put a second mage in and probably swap out plains for the tundra i'll be getting, but those two cards are all i can get in time.
Don't take out the edicts for ponders, because you are running 3 FOF you have enough draw, you don't need the extra, but I would try to find a way to stuff 3 stifles in, such as if your meta isn't goblin heavy or aggro heavy, take out the edicts and a fact to put in 3 stifles.
I would also take out the tolaria west(it really is a bad card.) and put in either another dragon or a decree.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
@Frenger
You have to play at least 2 Decree of Justice. They are the perfect finisher for the deck. Out: 2 edicts.
Then play a 3/3 split between EE and Deed, because the EE is faster.
Play a 2nd Humility. Humility just owns many decks. -1 FoF
Add the 2nd wish.
@landstill101
I dont see the point with stifles in landstill.
The only reason to play stifles in landstill is to protect your own manabase.
Stifle a Ringleader or something else isnt important today.
And stifle an opponents first turn fetchie doesnt bring you a game braking advantage, because u are the control deck... Maybe it can help u to reach the midgame, but thats all.
But I like stifles in the landstill mirror (vs Deed/EE AND Decree).
I think one of the interesting matchups is ugr and ugb tempo ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, because this matchups is tough. (I would guess 50/50, the other ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh matchups are like 60-40 in favor of landstill).
There are some points to improve this matchup:
- Spell snares. They are amazing. I dont like to play less counters than my opponent with his ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (4 FoW, 4 spell snares, 4 daze), the spell snares helps u.
- Ponder. Ponder helps u to find the important land drops to improve your manabase and reach the mid/late game. And it can much more than a stifle.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
In the 3c thread Ponder has been discused recently, and it was sugested that it would be stronger in a 4c build because of the mana-fixing potential. Ferenger, I wouldn't dismiss them just yet. Considering that you run 6x sweepers and 4x StP, I think the Edicts are excess. I, personally, would run another EE and either an E. Tutor or a Ponder in the Edict slots, if the EE is available, otherwise the Tutor and the Ponder.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
i_need_the_extra_turns
@Frenger
You have to play at least 2 Decree of Justice. They are the perfect finisher for the deck. Out: 2 edicts.
Then play a 3/3 split between EE and Deed, because the EE is faster.
Play a 2nd Humility. Humility just owns many decks. -1 FoF
Add the 2nd wish.
That list was not ideal because i didn't have all of the cards. In my ideal build i run 2 humility and 2 decree. I was just running the above list in a very casual tournament because i wanted to play while cards were in the mail.
As for the deed/ee i like 4/2. I often like deed more and wish EE's were deeds. I can also fetch EE with Tolaria West (which does NOT suck) if i really need it.
As far as tolaria west goes, its amazing. Sure it doesn't have instant speed, but it makes the lategame so versatile. Have a crucible? Get a wasteland and lock them. Want to re use your EE? Nab an academy and lock them. Mishra's been extirpated? opponent has a grunt or some fatty, or you just need to get in there? Go for nantuko monastery and first strike 'em. Stuck without a green or black mana and cant find a fetch? Fix your mana base. Want a basic? Get it!
I am consistently amazed at how much that card helps me late game. It's weak early on because it comes into play tapped, but i've even used it, then replayed it with crucible to make my decree one bigger.
Stifle i dropped a while ago because my meta has little combo where that card shines. I found it to only be useful in the early game when it can generate tempo, but really a dead draw later on. Spell Snare is better in this slot as its much more useful later on, but still good in the early turns. However i run neither.
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
So what's the consensus on Goyf vs. Humility? Which is better? I'm guessing goblin/Ichorid/more aggro meta that Humility is better with Goyf being better in a metagoyf. Is this right? The only other question I have is what's better in an unknown meta? I'm guessing Humility.
I was just wondering because a lot of landstill lists were running goyfs at GenCon, which was an unknown meta other than people believing that Thresh would be a major contender (there was quite a bit, but none of it did well).
Out of curiosity, wouldn't Chant be better than Stifle? Still good in the combo matchup but also a fog effect against aggro, where stifle is not any good except for against Fetches/Wastes? I know it would lower the blue count (FoW) but it's just an idea. If you've discussed it already I'd like to know how the discussion turned out. I couldn't find it within the thread.
Pce,
--DC
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
So what's the consensus on Goyf vs. Humility? Which is better? I'm guessing goblin/Ichorid/more aggro meta that Humility is better with Goyf being better in a metagoyf. Is this right? The only other question I have is what's better in an unknown meta? I'm guessing Humility.
I was just wondering because a lot of landstill lists were running goyfs at GenCon, which was an unknown meta other than people believing that Thresh would be a major contender (there was quite a bit, but none of it did well).
Out of curiosity, wouldn't Chant be better than Stifle? Still good in the combo matchup but also a fog effect against aggro, where stifle is not any good except for against Fetches/Wastes? I know it would lower the blue count (FoW) but it's just an idea. If you've discussed it already I'd like to know how the discussion turned out. I couldn't find it within the thread.
Pce,
--DC
Humility is better. Humility wrecks most decks and has incredible synergy with mishra's, nantuko, and decree. Goyf is just... goyf.
Stifle is way more versatile than chant, and can do more versus more decks, counter storm, fetches, waste, survival, etc. It's also blue and costs one less mana (and a colored one at that). Then again, i don't even run stifle because it's not as good as alternatives.
I went ahead and copied DiF and made a google doc's of my list if you're curious: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dd47b5fq_0hsrwt4c2
Re: [DtB] U/b/g/w and U/b/g Landstill
Wondering about ponder inclusion I've reached this list after some days of tests, the only annoying thing is that I had to include the 61st card, yes it's proved that's almost the same of running 60 cards, but I'd prefer to cut a card if I could in the near future, the problem is: which?
Here's my new list
Quote:
Manasources (24)
6 fetches (4 strand 2 delta)
3 tundra
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 scrubland
1 savannah
1 plains
1 island
4 mishra's factory
1 wasteland
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
Permissions (8)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
Card Advantage (13)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Ponder
2 Cunning Wish
Removals (10)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Enginereed Explosives
Utilities (3)
2 Humility
1 Crucible of Worlds
Winconditions (3)
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Decree of Justice
The sideboard is meta-dependent, so it's useless to post it.
Some considerations: I do prefer the split 3/3 between deed and e.e. manly because e.e. are more reliable and flexible than deed, especially when sometimes I get color screwed and I can't cast deed for several turns, and obviously when I find academy for recursion.
The second thought was about the cut of one crucible, this may be questionable, but I needed to find a place where to put ponders to make some tests, and that place seemed the only one reasonable. I cut one FoF for the second slot (like somebody I used to play one in the last free slot), and then I'd have liked to cut one land, but I don't know if the deck can afford it (for the 3c version with ponders 23 lands seems enough), anyway, even if I had to cut one, I wouldn't know which :confused:
That is the reason for the 61st card :cry:
For now the tests seemed to confirm the utility of ponder, but one worry still wafts, because ponder is a sorcery and doesn't fit sometimes with an instant engine deck, mainly when you try to draw to respond to something, if you have a ponder in hand it's very difficult to respond... (lol)
So it's better to use them right after their draw, to fix the mana or adjust the next draw, at least they can also be a force pitch, but that's not a fair use.
The last thing: I wouldn't run a landstill with W without including 2 humility, they are surely necessary, then THESE slots are untouchable
Have you guys some ideas? Or suggestion?
Has any of you made a test with ponder?
Some alternative "ponder lists"?
I wait for your answer, and as usual, forgive my jungle english :tongue:
