[Deck] Dredge

Hi guys,
because I like reading reports I believe that there are others that do so too.
Hope you´ll enjoy it :)

After I top8ed the last two tournaments with ANT(along with others playing it as well , I was hoping for CB-Decks to rise again. I decided that Dredge had proven it´s sickness and therefor had to do the job again.

39 players showed up which meant 6 rounds of swiss.

Round 1: Dutch Staxx Dice:Him

G1: I keep a hand with Land,LED,B.Through and a Dredger. He opens up with City of Traitors, Mox Diamond, Trinisphere. I have to go for DDD and pass the turn discarding the troll. He drops Moat. I dredge and hit two Narcos, discarding again. He drops more unfair cards like Crucible+Canopy and some more lands. I hit a third Narcomoeba and start to beat him with them. In the end he fails at finding a Moat and his life went: 18,15,12,9,6,3,1(O-Ring),ZERO. Yay!

+1 City +4 Chain +3 Grudge

G2: I keep my seven which have Chain, Breakthrough and some dredgers.
He shatters my dreams of quick win against the worst Matchup with Turn 1 CHalice@1, Turn 2 Moat, Turn 3 Humility, Turn 4 Elspeth. I scoop.

-3 Grudges, putting the Unmasks back in the MD

G3: I mull to 6, then to 5, then to 4...and then to 3: City,Mine,Therapy.
I lead with Gemstone,go. After drawing Unmask I decide to cast it removing Therapy since I wasn´t sure what to name(Trini,Moat or Humility). He has all three and I take Moat. We play draw,go for some time since he´s screwed and I immediatly use my Grudge to destroy his Mox when I draw it.
That turned out to be great since he finally ripped a land but was still unable to do anything. After a Therapy for double Trinisphere, flashbacked hitting double Humility I finally start dredging. The turn before he dies he topdecks a Wrath. I dredge, hit him with one Ichorid and pass. He topdecks Moat.
I dredge for 5 (libarry had 7 cards left) hitting the last DR and the Last Moeba.
Now I was able to DR twice, returning two Stinkweeds upping my Air-DMg to three with him beeing at 3. He draws his card, thinks a bit and then extendes his hand. YAY!
1-0 2-1

Round 2: Uwb Fish Dice:Him
G1: This game is pretty close because he has an early Grunt + a Spellstutter Sprite which caught me offguard and removed 3 bridges by chumping.
I win with an empty graveyard because Putrid Imp is a flyer and he´s at two :)
+ Tireless + Grudge + City +Firestorm
- Unmask - LED - DA

G2: He opens with Crypt, go. My hand contains some lands, a Tribe and an Imp. The Tribe eats a force, the Imp stays after I ripped two swords off of his hand. I hit a grudge in the first dredge but don´t have the mana to use it and he ripps a Mage naming Grudge -.- I still manage to get rid of his Crypt and go off for real afterwards. THe final board is: 2 GGT both beeing 16/16, a Narco and a bunch of tokens against Confidant with Jitte and his Mage.
Long story short: He rips the last two swords for both of my trolls, EE for the Tokens and Jitte>Ichorid.

G3: I keep a mediocre hand after he took a mulligan. I have PiMP, City,Ichorid,Hypnotist,Thug,Narco and BfB. I open with PimP, go. He counter with Relic, EE@Zero, go. I discard Ichorid and Hypnotist and get them during the Upkeep. Then I discard Thug where he responds using Relic. I discard Narco and Dredge into Bridge and 2 Grudges. Kill Relic, connect for five.
I built two Ichorids every following turn and killed him via firestorm+attack during the third extraturn.
2-0 4-2

Round 3: Hendrik List with Bgw Goodstuff.dec Dice:Him

G1: My hand is LED,Cephalid,GGT,B.Through and stuff. He starts thoughtseizing my LED away and I draw a second land. Lucky me he has no second discardspell and I can cast BT for one on the following turn.
After my Coliseum Activaten in response to 3 Ichorid triggers, I hit everything I need to empty his hand, build a huge troll and smile.

+1 City +4 CHain (After g1 it looked like Bg suicide)

G2: I have Chain and stuff, but loose a quick game to Crypt+7dmg per turn.

-Chains
+Grudges,Tribes etc.

G3: I therapy him on my first turn naming Extirpate (which I saw) because I have Grudge ready for his Crypt. He has crypt but no Pate. After grudging the Crypt, it´s an easy win.

3-0 6-3

1 hour break where I leave and eat the biggest pizza ever for nearly no money.

Round 4: Mono Black Suicide Dice: ME!
G1: I mull once and then go for Gemstone, B.Through saccing LED in response discarding a Troll. I fail at finding another dredge but draw into GGT,GGT and DA. He dies on turn two.
+4 Chain +1 City
-3 Unmask -1 Hypno -1 DA
G2: Swamp, Ritual, Thoughtseize seeing: City,Pimp,Ichorid,BfB,Hypnotist and Chain. He picks Ichorid and extirpates it immediatly.
I draw into some dredgers and we start to race each other after my PiMp ate a smother. I use some chain to bounce confidant to smash in for another 3 points of damage but I have no dredgers left and can only attack with 1 Narco and a zombie. His life goes: 18,16,13,10,7,6,5,4(only Narco attacked since he had blockers), 3....Confidant reaveals...Hypnotic Specter! YaY :)
4-0 8-3

Round 5: Bant Aggro Dice:Him
G1:Land, Putrid Imp. Dredge, cast 2 LEDs, use Breakthrough, flashback DA:Success. Ah, and I hit two Goyfs at random with a therapy :)

+1 City +2 Tribe +3 Grudge +3 Firestorm
-3 Unmask -4 LED -2 DA Is this correct against Bant?

G2: He starts and needles Putrid Imp. I look at my opening seven and smile when I see a Tribe. His next play is a Pridemage. I use Coliseum to dredge a bunch of cards and flash therapy naming Daze since that would´ve been much worse for me than a Force. Obviously he had the Force. Therefor I had to wait one turn before I could build up two huge Trolls-from-the-Grave and beat him to death.

5-0 10-3

I´m the only one with 15 points and therefor got paired down against a good friend playing Its the fear. We´ve played the matchup over and over and decide to just ID and head to the cheap pizza once again.

5-0-1 getting first and getting me a wb Taiga and a Heath which is nice for 5€ entry fee.

Some thoughts:
I lost all but one dieroll and was always happy with it (except for g1 against Staxx) because I could keep way more handy with seven than I usually do. I also went for DDD very often before playing my real threats from hand.

Hypnotists where completly worthless and awesome at the same time since I reanimated him only one time where it didn´t mattered but removed him for Ichorids all day long which saved my ass some times. Other reanimator targets would´ve done nothing more. Hypnotist is perfect for me.

@Parcher: Why would you want to side Firestorm against Staxx? Even if they have Magus, you still need 6 cards+firestorm + 5 other targets.

I only took ~8 mulligans overall where 4 where in the same game. Maybe due to the fact that I lost every but 1 roll?

I faced Crypt/Relic/Extirpate almost every postboard game and it never was a real threat. sick.

Firestorm discards cards through Chalice at one.

Imho Chalice is the card we have to be less-worried about than Moat/Humility/Trinisphere. I see the pro´s of firestorm here, but I believe we just don´t have the space.

I played Ichorid in the Jupiter games tournament yesterday, and went 6-1-1 for 9th place, out of 177. I played Parcher's 75, but I played an FKZ and a Sphinx of the Lost Truth in place of the hypnos. I did a lot of testing in the days prior and came to several situations where hypno just wouldn't get me there, and I needed the FKZ, so I decided to go that route. I lost first round to Canadian thresh because of bad dredges game one and a mull to 4 on game 3. I beat 43 land, merfolk twice, ultimate walker, landstill, goyf sligh, and I drew with my friend playing landstill. All in all I was very happy with the deck, and happy with the set of Volcanic Islands I took home.

-Chris-

I went 4-1-1 with Parcher's list this Sunday, 4-1-1ing into top 8 and losing in in three to Goblins with 74 of 75. I switched the City of Brass and Gemstone Mine around so I could have 4 maindeck cities, and I cut one Golgari Thug for a Woodfall Primus for random harmful permanents I might not have other answers for (Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Glacial Chasm, etc).

I was dissatisfied with both Sadistic Hypnotist and Unmask. The two games where I would have/did Mind Twisted with it would have been GG with a FKZ anyhow, so it didn't add much. OTOH, I did remove it for Ichorid, once. I will probably go back to FKZ, and use the other slot for a Sphinx.

Unmask was pretty bad. In nearly all circumstances I would have been happier with a Careful Study, which would have allowed me to keep hands with coliseum, and would have been far better when I need to mull as low as 4. I think I will be replacing them with the two Studies and the one Gemstone Mine I pulled from my own list.

The board was very good. Tireless Tribe was invaluable at holding off Goyfs and Goblins all day long. I think that I will probably, if I cut all the Unmasks from the list, slide either some of those or some answers to Leyline back into the SB.

Out of 7 game 1s I got to go broken three times, twice off of Breakthrough+LED and once off of Coliseum+DA+LED. That card is so awesome.

Quick question, would you play Bloodghast or Traditional Ichorid in the following meta:
A black control deck
A bunch of Goblin Decks
A few Thresh Decks
Some Merfolk
Scrub Aggro

Thanks

-PunkRocker

I would definitely play the traditional version. Not only because it's simply better, but for the following tangible reasons:

Goblins, Merfolk, and some versions of Threshold run Wastelands, which are very bad for the Paradise-reliant Bloodghast builds. Traditional Ichorid can run off of zero mana and doesn't need to hit a Dakmor Salvage dredging manalessly, just a black creature. You also don't need to hit sac outlets to power Bridge because Ichorid kills itself. Ichorid is also more likely to trade with a given merman on a swing than bloodghast is, and can get there far faster than Ghast thanks to Haster. Also, LED is a straight up broken card, and will heavily tilt the G1 and sometimes G3 matchups in your favor. Winning free games is awesome.

You are heavily favored vs scrub aggro and Threshold in any case. Black Control could be easy or a nightmare, depending on how much gy hate they are packing

I talked with the Dredge players around my meta and they all run 4 pithing needles and unmask in the SB. They also play Careful Study Main.
Is this just sub optimal?
I also asked the boarding tecs they use and told me they never board out LED or DA but from the site I understood you all sideboard them out.
Thoughts?

I used to play pithing needle in my SB, but I have switched to a combination of Ancient Grudge and Tireless Tribe. At first I was just copying this plan from more testing dredge players, but now I understand the reasoning behind it. Dredge is a deck that is resilient enough to take a Crypt-ing or even two, and still win the game. Slow dredging, hopefully with a permanent outlet, but even with draw, discard, dredge, gives you a powerful inevitablity, provided you do not extend. Ancient Grudge deals with crypt not by making it so that you won't lose a few cards, because you're "drawing" 5-6 a turn anyhow, but by forcing them to trigger crypt at a point where it merely annoying and not crippling. By contrast, you have to essentially draw Needle in your starting 7 to have it be at all relevant, and it still will not help now that people have diversified their hate suite to 2, 2, 1 crypt/trap/relic.

LED is generally bad on the draw g2 because you will not have the chance to go-all in and fetch up some kind of creature to therapy their crypt away, even on the play g3 it is now risky thanks to Ravenous Trap

Something I haven't seen addressed in this thread: shuffling.

Since this deck only needs four cards to win, in principle, shuffling is key to getting that winning grip.

How do you guys shuffle, is there too much shuffling?

Personally, if I play Ichorid I shuffle more than I normally would. 3-5 ruffles, 8 stack shuffle, repeated two or three times with a ruffle or two before letting them cut the deck.

Generally, I ple shuffle from 6-12 piles, and do so in different orders each set of 6, 8 or 12 cards. Then I overhand riffle a few times, pile once more in 6, roverhand a few times, and then I pass it to my opp. I pile and riffle after each mulligan.

But I do this with all decks, not just dredge.

Seems this thred is just dead while the led-less is always full of posts.
Does this mean that led ichorid is dead and it's time for the led-less era (aka led-less is better)?

Just looking at decks from November, it seems there is about an even 50/50 split between LED-inclusive decks and non LED-inclusive decks. For instance, neither of the Dredge decks appearing in the SCG 10K top 16 had LED in it. The same goes for a number of decks that made top 8 at various tournaments throughout the Legacy community. But, just as many decks in November alone seem to include LED.

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30593
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30577
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30402
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30380
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=30358

That's just an offhand sample. LED is definitely still around. That said, most American Dredge players seem to be excluding LED from their decks. Perhaps this is a generalization, but of the SCG Tournament Dredge decks that placed in the top 16 of their respective events, only 1 included LED:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=30596
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=30593
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29974
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29962
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=29848 (LED INCLUDED)

So it seems that, at least state-side, Dredge players are moving away from the question of LED or no LED. That seems settled. Now it is more a matter of Bloodghast or no Bloodghast.

-ktkenshinx-

I think its showing only that its time to name this thread "LED ichorid" and the other one "non-LED ichorid", simply you cannot infer that an Ichorid build will be using LED or what not.

Hi,
went to Magickeller again and wanted to test nonLED this time but couldn´t find any Bloodghats in time so I had to play Parchers 75 again.
Here´s a short summary of what´s happened:
R1: BantSurvival 1-2 ->loosing the 1st game always sucks.
Interesting situation: He knew I was playing any Combodeck and kept his 7 pretty fast. I assumed he had a FoW/Daze at least and kept my 7 with LED and Unmask as my only castable spells. I wanted to go for DDD and maybe hit a DA.
He just kept a fast hand and went aggro on me :/ What do you think, was my thought that terribly wrong?
R2:Goyfsligh without Hate 2-0
R3: TempoBant with Relics and Dueling Grounds 2-0
R4: Domainzoo without Hate 2-0
R5: BGW Rock with 1 P.Void, 2 Crypt, 2 Relic, 3 Plagues, 3 Gaddock, Pulse&Deed MD 2-1 after loosing g1, yay :D
R6: Eternal Garden 2-0 Hypnotist did something after all!

5-1/11-3 ending up 2/38.

Conclusion: Haven´t casted Unmask once and Hypntotist did nothing special as well. Had some problems finding lands but in the end I played it twice now and went 10-1-1 (1st and 2nd place) so I think I can´t complain at all. But I´m definitely going to test the Bloodghast version now.

nqn

PS: Does someone need an Unlimited Minty Plateau?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NQN

Hi,
went to Magickeller again and wanted to test nonLED this time but couldn´t find any Bloodghats in time so I had to play Parchers 75 again.
Here´s a short summary of what´s happened:
R1: BantSurvival 1-2 ->loosing the 1st game always sucks.
Interesting situation: He knew I was playing any Combodeck and kept his 7 pretty fast. I assumed he had a FoW/Daze at least and kept my 7 with LED and Unmask as my only castable spells. I wanted to go for DDD and maybe hit a DA.
He just kept a fast hand and went aggro on me :/ What do you think, was my thought that terribly wrong?
R2:Goyfsligh without Hate 2-0
R3: TempoBant with Relics and Dueling Grounds 2-0
R4: Domainzoo without Hate 2-0
R5: BGW Rock with 1 P.Void, 2 Crypt, 2 Relic, 3 Plagues, 3 Gaddock, Pulse&Deed MD 2-1 after loosing g1, yay :D
R6: Eternal Garden 2-0 Hypnotist did something after all!

5-1/11-3 ending up 2/38.

Conclusion: Haven´t casted Unmask once and Hypntotist did nothing special as well. Had some problems finding lands but in the end I played it twice now and went 10-1-1 (1st and 2nd place) so I think I can´t complain at all. But I´m definitely going to test the Bloodghast version now.

nqn

PS: Does someone need an Unlimited Minty Plateau?

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lol

"I got 1st and 2nd place! Let's test another version!"

Just playin.

But anyways, the reason why this thread doesn't buzz with activity is because the list is pretty much optimized. After Parcher posted the complete sideboard plan, there's really not much more to talk about. This doesn't mean that LED Ichorid is dead (actually far from it), but try both and see which one you prefer. Also note that this deck shifts its gears towards non-LED games 2/3 anyways, while still maintaining the nutso game 1s.

Yeah, that´s why I like it so much :) But since everyone say "hi, nonLED is SOO much more consistent" I just want to try both to figure out if I want to play it at GP madrid or not :)
I´m not so sure about the optimized thing. Unmask has never been that great for me, the best thing it does is giving you 3 cards to board out every game :D Same goes for Hypnotist but without him I´d feel low on black creatures :/

Hi to all,

@Yesmilord: I love the message under your nick:laugh:

Firstly - I would like to read the Parcher´s SB plan? Is it somewhere here, pls?

Secondlyc - I would like to share with dredge comminuty our version.

I was playing nonLED due to BGhast, because I simply see (and I was very long conservative about it in favor of Ichorid) it is better.

After that I was tinkering about the idea familiarize BGhast and LED in one deck. Explosivity of LED and long-run with BGhast.

Here we are:

FBA Dredge

4x Undiscovered Paradise
2x Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2x Dakmor Salvage
1x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

4x Putrid Imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Bloodghast
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria

4x Careful Study
3x Breakthrough
4x Lion´s Eye Diamond
2x Deep Analysis
2x Dread Return
4x Cabal Therapy

SB something like this:

1x Ancestor´s Chosen
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Realm Razer
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle
4x Ancient Grudge


I plann play this on GPT Madrid, so I refer results after that /16.1.2010/, so we see.

Any ideas welcomed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rascal

Firstly - I would like to read the Parcher´s SB plan? Is it somewhere here, pls?

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Posts #325 and #341.

Swiss plus one tourney this sunday, ran Dredge, Parcher's list except that I cut a Hypnotist for FKZ, a Thug for a Woodfall Primus, and swapped the position of City and Mine in the MD and SB. All of my boarding was Parcher-style, except where noted.

R1 vs Goblins
G1: Mull to oblivion
G2: Open on Tireless Tribe and millinto sufficent gas with draw step dredge to reanimate a Woodfall Primus+therapy to kill lands
G3: Mull to 4, and his Children of Korlis and Skirk Prospectors keep me from putting up much of a fight. I did manage to pop a Coliseum, but I did not manage to hit enough creatures to DR the Ancestor's chosen He ripped a Matron to kill me the turn before I would have been able to.

R2 vs. Affinity
G1: I do my thing, and though he gets an active Ravager, I slip 3 Bridge tokens through, kill lands with Primus, and get in there for the win.
G2: I keep a hand with Tribe, Grudge, Breakthrough, 2 cities, and no dredger. A good choice, because I nailed Relic and Tormod's before ripping a Dredger to finish him off through his frogs and disciples

R3 vs Suicide Black, splashing red.
g1 I mull to 5 on the play, and proceed to unmask myself for an imp, breakthrough and win handily from there.
g2 he drops a t1 crypt. I respond with Imp. He bolts it, I respond with another, and his jitte'd Specter falls to a combined Imp and Narcomoeba effort after a mistimed Crypt on his part. He also had a nother bolt that he did not use on my Imp. I explained the matchup to him afterwards, and suggested he run Leyline instead.


R4 Canadian Thresh 1-2
G1: I mull to 5 on the draw, but with the help of a t1 Unmask on his Force and a t2 upkeep LED of two trolls, I generate enough threats to kill him.
g2 I let him run a late FoW of my Tireless Tribe. THis is a dumb move, and I eventually lose to Mongoose beats when I cannot find a dredger.
g3 I mull to oblivion

R5Merfolk 2-0
G1 I am Mr dredgematic, but I only see basic Island from him. I board in everything but the Chain of Vapors and the Unmask for the combo package and some DR targets.
G2 he gets a Jitte and Mutavault to put it on, but I find a grudge after one hit. It's close until I finally manage to hit some bridges to go with my ichorids and thereby win the race. Woodfall Primus was key to kill an Island and deprive him of Rejeery warchief shenanigans

R6 Survival (FEB) 2-1
G1 I do my dredgy business. Primus eats two beta trops.
G2 His Crypt is able to stall enough for him to get some blockers, I can't get enough pressure or find the primus for Survival, and he eventually Akromaphages me. I miss the SB Ray of Revelations. I board in all the combo and decide to just race g3 if his hate is just crypt
G3: I mull to 4, and keep Mine, Led, breakthough, therapy on the play. Therapy for Crypt, see blanks and a force. He drops a Vial and passes. I pick up a Pimp, am told I am on turn 0 and cast it. It gets forced. He does nothing relevant. I pound the top of my deck for a dredger, find a Cephalid Coliseum, and dumbly pass the turn. He does nothing again. My t4 is a thing of beauty, albeit unnecessary. I go coliseum, LED, breakthrough for 0, dump a dredger in, Coliseum activate, Dredge 14 with two Stinkweed Imps and one Thug, Deep Analysis, dredge 12, and in the top half of my deck I find the 3 narcomoebas, 3x bridges, FKZ, and Dread Return I need to win on the turn. Of course, I could have done the same thing on turn 2 of turns. Silly me.

4-2 was enough to get me 6th.

All in all, I like the deck, but I think that Hypnotist is better off as a Sphinx of Lost Truths or an Iona. Its only use in this tourney was as Ichorid fodder.

@Rascal: Bloodghast beeing better than Ichorid is simply wrong.
1. No Haste
2. Doesn´t make bridgesex on his own
3. No Haste
4. Only good with a recurable land

I´m currently testing him but I´ll never cut Ichorid as he´s probably the sickest card in the deck. For now it looks like a 4/3 split of Icho/Ghast is fine, because I refuse to use such a bad land as Oboro just to make Bloodghast work.

I'm just gonna mumble from the top of my head, I may be horribly wrong or maybe I am on to something!

The beauty of this deck is the insane synergy between cards that play through the graveyard which nets you more cards than other "regular" decks that only draw cards in their draw step.

Why do we have to be so super-duper fast? At the cost of "g3: I mulliganed into oblivion"? As Parcher says, 11 lands is enough to give you 1 land in your starting hand.

1 land, 1 Pimp, 1 dredger, 1 drawspell. Perfect!
T1: Land, Pimp
Opponent: Wasteland

?!

Sure, you can pitch dredger and draw via draw step. But your plan to cast the draw spell and go bonanza just went to the bin.

Why not make the deck a little more reliable, aaah, reliable, thats a word I miss with this deck. Recently there have been decks that pack 15 lands and 2-3 life from the loam and playing bloodghast (i'm not saying he's good). But that deck can take wasteland hits and perhaps get better starting hands.

But the deck gets slower. But as i said, why have to be super-duper fast?
43 lands isn't fast, but it abuses the graveyard for cardadvantage and zoo and merfolk decks can't handle 2-5 land cards hitting play each turn. We abuse the yard in the same way.

Just.. something like that..

Adding lands doesn't help the deck's speed or consistency, because you need to cut business to get the extra lands and Loams in, and they pretty much do nothing unless you're running the suboptimal Bloodghast. At this stage in the deck's development, there's pretty much nothing to cut for them. Also, getting the Loam engine active is by no means a fait accompli even on 15 lands. You have a 1/3 percent chance on opening up on the two lands you need to even cast a Loam, and god forbid your opponent should have a Waste to claim one. And then, assuming you get the two lands, dredger, discard outlet, possible draw spell hand you need to make a loam work by dredging into one, why would you even need it by that point? the 2-4 turns of dredging you've had by that point are more than enough to just, you know, win.

tldr version:
Game one is in the bag anyway, and you're falling into the "Danger of Cool Things" trap.

Not that I have any notes or testing behind this, and I wasn't promoting bloodghast.

But, once the dredgedeck gets going, it really gets going, it wins.

Why not try and get it consitently going instead of taking hazardous risks to get it going? I don't know how... but.... yeah you know! I'm thinking :)

If you're going for consistency, go talk in the LEDless ichorid thread. I hear they aim for consistency by not using LED and DA.

After I have seen Iona in action in some Reanimator-decks, I have been tickled a bit by it, is it possible to replace the 2 Hypnotists with 2 Ionas or play a 1/1 split? They both shut down the opponent's resources and I think she can fuck the crap out of Merfolks, Goblins, Mono Red Burn and especially Painter and Combo by herself.

And she is a hell of a beater unlike Hypnotist. But in exchange, she can't be pitched into Ichorids.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

After I have seen Iona in action in some Reanimator-decks, I have been tickled a bit by it, is it possible to replace the 2 Hypnotists with 2 Ionas or play a 1/1 split? They both shut down the opponent's resources and I think she can fuck the crap out of Merfolks, Goblins, Mono Red Burn and especially Painter and Combo by herself.

And she is a hell of a beater unlike Hypnotist. But in exchange, she can't be pitched into Ichorids.

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I run one Iona in the side, and even though you cant pitch it to things, a 7/7 flier is never irrelevant. And you're right, it does completely hose mono colored decks. Even with vials out you've won the game by DRing Iona. Definitely include one of her in the deck/sideboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jandax

I run one Iona in the side, and even though you cant pitch it to things, a 7/7 flier is never irrelevant. And you're right, it does completely hose mono colored decks. Even with vials out you've won the game by DRing Iona. Definitely include one of her in the deck/sideboard.

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She hoses mono colored decks but still gives multi-colored decks a hard time. If you name their removal color, they'll be hopping around on one leg trying to deal with a 7/7 while you have all the time in the world now to set up a lethal zombies. I've liked her a lot - a fatty actually worth MBing in dredge.

In theory a 1/1 split between Iona and Hypnotist also seems logical, Hypnotist can take the opponent's resources and Iona can back you up against topdecks (there are no real topdecks in Legcy, tho).

Or should ppl just play 2 Ionas maindeck instead of the Hypnotists? In that case I need to get a 2nd foil Iona...

Im moving towards a 1-1 split of Iona/Hypno. Either one is never errelevant, and is a game breaker. And as a split, you have a wee advantage of the opp not singling out a pair of hypnos or ionas when you dredge them. One shows up or the other, and you play from there. if both show up then lulz for someone.

And to the previous poster, there sure are topdecks in Legacy! It's just that a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while :cool:

I am learning to play LED Ichorid for the first time. Is it reasonable to say the Unmasks + Firestorm from the first post are metagame slots that should be adjusted as needed? For example in a metagame that has a significant number of graveyard abusing opponents should those slots be switched out for Leyline of the Void main deck?

Also I have read through this thread and saw an interesting DR target that did not get discussed a lot: Furystoke Giant. In theory it seems decent as a sideboard 1x card to win through Propaganda, Elephant Grass, etc. Thoughts?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juzamjedi

Furystoke Giant. In theory it seems decent as a sideboard 1x card to win through Propaganda, Elephant Grass, etc. Thoughts?

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Woodfall Primus fills up the DR slot for problem artifacts and enchantments I believe.

Yeah woodfall primus seems to work just fine and better than furystoke giant...it can blow up almost everything that furystoke giant can except gaddock teeg which would not happen anyways because you couldn't cast DR then. And furystoke giant requires that you already have some creatures out without summoning sickness which seems unlikely so you'll have to take one extra turn to utilize it after you get a bunch of tokens but it's persist ability is nice for generating more tokens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adan

In theory a 1/1 split between Iona and Hypnotist also seems logical, Hypnotist can take the opponent's resources and Iona can back you up against topdecks (there are no real topdecks in Legcy, tho).

Or should ppl just play 2 Ionas maindeck instead of the Hypnotists? In that case I need to get a 2nd foil Iona...

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I usually play LED-less dredge, which does not opt for Hypno, but a 1/1 split sounds okay. 2x Iona is fine too because her main selling point is the zero-reliance on bridge strategy. Assuming the speed of LED versions, you can consistently power her out by turn 2 because you don't need to "combo off".

Since I didn´t really had the motivation to play real mtg all day long I decided to play ParcherDredge once more.
GP:Trial Hamburg 39 players, 6 rounds of swiss+top8

I played with 1 Iona instead of 1 Hypnotist in the MD and it was the sickness! It won me 4 games I wouldn´t have won with Hypno nor any other DR target!

R1: DDANT 0-2 Due to mulligan to 4 in g1 and bad dredges g2, probably shouldve discarded that DD :/

R2: LEDless Dredge 2-1

R3: Ugr Tempo with Noughts and Lavamancer 2-0 Unmask on FoW, Land,LED,Breakthrough. lol :D Didn´t find a dredger in the first six, but it obv was still enough to kill him some turns later. G2 I just slowdredged him to death, never had problems.

R4: Death and Taxes with Greensplash, 3 Gaddocks MD, 4 Tabernacles+Crypts SB 2-1
Lost g2 due to Gaddock and me not drawing a firestorm but 3! Breakthroughs. Won g3 against turn 1 Tabernacle+double Crypt+Gaddock. Hell I´m awesome.

R5: Merrows 2-0 ALmost lost g1 after Unmask taking Scratcher and him topdecking FoW for my Breakthrough but Iona > MonoColoured. G2 he opened with Relic+double Force backup for Tribe+P.Imp but as I already mentioned I´m awesome and just drew two more Pimps. I even used Grudge to nail a Vial because Relic was just too narrow.

R6 75 card Mirror and he´s a friend of mine, we ID
Top8:
Quarters: Sascha Thomsen with Intuition Lands 2-1
He´s probably the best land.dec player ever and I´m really afraid of 3 Tolaria West+Tabernacle/GLacial Chasm and Crypt out of the sideboard.
I mull down to 4 game one and still lead with Coliseum, Breakthrough. I dredge for some turns until I got no dredgers left but skillful as I am I topdeck a City and can activate Coliseum. Since he managed to hit 7 spells and zero relevant lands in 4 dredges with loam I can reanimate Iona on Green and seal the deal. phew :D
In g2 he starts with Crypt,Wasteland,Chalice@zero. I just kept a hand of DDD+BReakthrough because I knew he only had 1 Crypt. He has to use his crypt some turns later but I fail at finding a dredge card in 10 cards so BT just sits there and he finds the Tabernacle in time.
I Don´t remember much about g3 but he opened with land,exploration,Tabernacle >.<. I just beat him down with 1 Ichorid cause he didn´t have the Loam. Funny Sidenote: I Opened with Land,Therapy on Intuition and hit one despite the fact that he sided 3/4 out :D

5-1-1

Semi´s: BW Aggro, Extirpate in Side 2-0
G1: Just crushed him.
G2: Made 3 really big mistakes because I just wasn´t concentrated at all due to some good friends sitting around me. He did only had some guys and firestorm just nuked them all out.

6-1-1 12-5

Since we were >32 players the finals were split and we both got 3 Byes for Madrid. YaY !
The Deck was awesome as always, I´m seriously considering playing it at the GP. Allthough Hypnotist really sucks and Unmask is rarely good the whole 75 are just unstoppable.

Parcher, I´d like to thank you for the SB guide and the awesome decklist!
Allthough I made some changes to the guide and after the last three tournaments I don´t really need it anymore, it was a great help to get into the deck.

Some Notes on the deck:
-Land,P.Imp is always good game
-It´s not nearly as inconsistent as everybody tells, I´m 16-2-2 in the last 3 tournaments now
-We dont want Hypnotist, is there ANY good black reanimate target?
- Bloodghast makes the deck worse, even without LED


greetz,
NQN

I don't think any of these are better than Iona/FKZ but...

Angel of Despair
Lacquatas' Champion
Broodmate Dragon
Ob Nixilis
Magister Sphinx
Malfegor

Zomg Magister Sphinx enables Bloodghasts :tongue:

I placed 9 at a 36 man GPT tournament this weekend with a "classic"/old list, with FKZ/Sphinx of Lost Truths, no Bloodghast, no MD Unmask, yada yada.

R1: vs StifleNought of some ilk
First game he counters a discard outlet, but I have another so I can start racing him. He does get a Dreadnought out, but it only beats me one time before I smack him down.
Second game he is to busy using all his resources holding me back and never really play any spells that matter before I win.
1-0

R2: vs Goblins
First game he mulligans to 3 (!) and loses.
Second game I just race him and win.
2-0

R3: vs Zoo
In the first game he tries to race me, but I get there faster.
In the second game, he gets out a Lavamancer and starts messing with my bridges, combining that with a superfast clock and I loose the first duel of the day.
Third game I win on turn 2 with haste-zombies.
3-0

R4: vs Goblins
This was the first interesting round. Mainly because it went to time (!) and because I made this huuuuge playmistake.
The first game he blows up my bridges, my Narcs and my Ichorids while building his boardposition, and I loose.
In the second game i'm a little bit faster, even with Earwig Squads stealing bridges and DR-targets.
It's in the third game I make my huge mistake. I have sided in Firestorm, and have it in hand from the start. We trade some creatures, he removes bridges and we fight it out. Soon enough I have beaten him to the point where he is at 6 life, i'm at 12 and we have 2 creatures each on the board. In play I have a Gemstone Mine with counters left, and in hand I have 7 cards, one of which is Firestorm. It is the first time-round. The correct play at this moment is to win. For some reason, even though I have been building up to this position for the last three turns, I completly forget what I'm doing and instead of just winning, I attack in with my creatures UNPROFITABLY leaving me with an empty board and him with two creatures. Now I realise what I have done, and burn him for 4 and clearing his board, at least being able to finish him off the round after that with my Ichorid unless he topdecks something. And then he plays Ravenous Trap. Draw.
3-0-1

R5: Dragon Stompy
I have no experience of this matchup or the DS-deck at all. I thought it was a slow deck. Apparently not.
First game, a dragon smacks me for 36 round 2, or something like that.
Second game, I neuter his hand with Unmask, but fail to do anything for the four rounds it takes him to land another dragon and smack me down.
3-1-1

R6: Merfolk
Here I make my second mistake. The player i'm facing is a very good one and i'm not really confident about the Merfolk-matchup, but it doesn't seem that I can make it into top8 by intentional draw even though I have fantastic tie breakers, so I decide to play. Big mistake.
First game I keep a bit sketchy hand, and two counterspells later i'm out of discardoutlets and he bashes me down.
Second game I keep another sketchy hand, being somewhat on tilt, and I see no dredgers in 19 cards, and then I die.
3-2-1

After the last game i'm at 10 points, and in the standings I see that 11 points would have been enough to Top8 with the fantastic tie breakers I have. D'oh!

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With those MU:s I really should have had better results, and i'm very disappointed at missing Top8. I am, however, not at all disappointed with the deck. It's fantastic to play, and it's great to be "that guy" with "that deck". I will probably play it again this weekend.

Anyone try testing out Iona and E witness as the DR targets?

I think this deck may have a new DR target.

Terastodon 6gg
Creature - Elephant Rare
When Terastodon enters the battlefield, destroy up to three target noncreature permanents. For each permanent put into a graveyard this way, it's controller puts a 3/3 green Elephant creature token onto the battlefield. 9/9

The fact that he can destroy up to THREE noncreature permanents is huge. It ensures that we can attack freely by blowing up various enchantments that give us trouble. If nothing else, it can blow up lands and knock our opponent off a color. Additionally, he provides 18 power/toughness all by himself.

Edit: I am dumb and cannot read.

The way worded, he gives the 3/3s to the player, whose permanents you destroy, that is, your opponent...