All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

And against storm decks? I hear they use many creatures.


Also, Oath will NEVER drop a creature first turn (which would require something like Lotus Petal to even drop the oath first turn) even if it sits there the first turn, while Reanimator can drop a turn-1 creature with Entomb, Dark Ritual, a Black Source and a Reanimate. The fastest Oath can drop a fatty is turn 2 and that is if it also has Orchard in it's opening hand... which is, guess what, a 2-card combo! Sure, it doesn't need the Orchard if the other player is playing creatures... read below in how I address that.

Oath would have access to those more powerful creatures, but it lacks the explosiveness of Reanimator, won't kill in the first two-three turns like Dredge or ANT, and is vulnerable to maindecked cards like Pridemage (which is in Zoo and zoo is all over the place). Also, Oath is dependent on Orchard if it wants to stand a chance against faster combo decks. Merfolk probably wouldn't mind Oath too much as they run counters and wasteland to deal with early Orchards. Zoo maindecks Pridemages to blow up the Oath.

I realize that Oath is powerful, but creature creep and the evolution of our meta has made it less powerful then it was in the past.

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First, reanimator don't play ritual. And if it do, it shouldn't. Playing a tutor to grab your entomb or your protection or playing a thoughtseize is crucial first turn. Reanimator isn't storm, it doesn't need to do all his thing on one turn. Second, Oath isn't a two card combo. As someone already pointed out, this isn't vintage, and people actually play a lot of creatures. You can say that oath is a two card combo only against 20% of the format, so a 1.2 card combo.
Finally, the real power of oath doesn't derive from his speed, but in his compactness. Flash was much more retarded than AnT or storm combo just because you played control that won on turn 3. Oath is the same, if not even less slots. Reanimator is in between, in the sense that has much less slots used than storm combo for the actual combo, but is a bit slower and has some dead draws that storm hasn't. Oath is a "combo" that could fit easily in decks like lands, Loam or Standstill.

Also, Oath encourages wrong plays, in the same sense that Land Tax do. And if Land Tax is still banned, go figure.

I was pretty sure Oath would be a terrible card to have unbanned, but to get a more concrete idea of what it would be like I knew that I had to actually build a theoretical list then play it. After about 3 minutes of brainstorming I decided that pure Oath lists would probably be UGW and UGB (both with a possible red splash in the sideboard for red blasts). I decided to test out the UGW variant - here's the list:

Mana//
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath/Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Orchards
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Lotus Petal

Support//
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force
3 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
0-2 Dragon Breath

Stupid win conditions//
4 Oath
1-2 Emrakul (really, this could be a number of things. Most decks lose to Iona, Progenitus, and Terastodon just the same)

The Zoo matchup depends slightly on the creature you run - but it's pretty much a crap shoot for them given the fact that you run about a million answers to Pridemage, 6 virtual answers to Karakas, and enough countermagic to steal their tempo until some near unstoppable beatstick hits play. Goblins is clearly a bye - actually, assuming the Oath player can actually play magic and build a sideboard, every deck not playing Islands is probably close to a joke. Storm could be tricky depending on how much sideboard space you have...but more than likely you are packing Iona + some tutorable hate + a metric ton of countermagic, so it's doable. The combo mirror is easier if you run a UBG list with Lim-Dul's Vault and Thoughtseize. Merfolk are manageable since they only have 4 hard counters for Oath and will often have to play guys (Pithing Needle on Mutavault prevents them from beating you that way). All the random Bant piles in the format that have Pridemage + blue stuff are still going to be hard-pressed to win game 1 and still be fighting hard to try and win games 2/3.

Oh, and you could just run Show and Tell + some fatties in the sideboard if Krosan Grip annoys you. A UBG variant is probably better for this plan.

Plus, you could always hybridize decks instead of making them totally reliant on Oath. This may even be better than anything I just described.

Oath is a mistake to unban not because you can't beat it - you certainly can (hell, Flash was still beatable back in 2007). Oath is a mistake to unban because it just makes aggro worse and blue based control shells better. The format doesn’t gain anything from Oath being unbanned except another ridiculous blue based deck.

I just can't understand how you can possibly justify unbanning Oath of Druids? The fact that this card punishes all creature based strategies severely on its own should be reason enough to keep it banned. As mentioned before, the format would gain nothing by unbanning Oath, but instead alot of viable decks would be hated out.

It's banned for the same reason Land Tax is banned, but it's so much more powerful.

Land Tax is banned not because of power, it's banned because it goes against every intuitive Magic strategy: play lands every turn. Then, once your opponent knows you're playing a Land Tax deck, stunting your own land development to turn off your opponent's key card will sometimes become the right play. They don't want to support cards that make such counter-intuitive strategies relevant.

Same thing with Oath; basically you want to play creatures, and if you have more on board than your opponent, you have an edge. Playing against Oath turns all that around. Holding a hand with 4x Goyf with 4 Forest on board, the right play is usually to drop 2 Goyfs. Against an Oath deck, you have a hand full of the key creature i the format and you hold back because playing him means you lose.

Land Tax can be beaten even when you enable their key card. It provides card selection similar to Jace TMS/Brainstorms plus fetches/Ponders, but you can still lose if you don't draw the right cards or screw up somehow. Oath is nigh-unloseable once you go off, once.

Stop talking about Oath already.

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Originally Posted by ColeM

I was pretty sure Oath would be a terrible card to have unbanned, but to get a more concrete idea of what it would be like I knew that I had to actually build a theoretical list then play it. After about 3 minutes of brainstorming I decided that pure Oath lists would probably be UGW and UGB (both with a possible red splash in the sideboard for red blasts). I decided to test out the UGW variant - here's the list:

[snip]

Oath is a mistake to unban not because you can't beat it - you certainly can (hell, Flash was still beatable back in 2007). Oath is a mistake to unban because it just makes aggro worse and blue based control shells better. The format doesn’t gain anything from Oath being unbanned except another ridiculous blue based deck.

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Alright, that was what I wanted to see. Thank you for showing that deck list and offerring your explaination.

I still won't oppose Oath being unbanned, but your post helped me see that Legacy still isn't ready for it. Legacy will one day be ready, but not now.

Could you open another poll? Now that another flame war has been fought out, I want to see if this poll would have the same results.

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Originally Posted by ummon

Could you open another poll? Now that another flame war has been fought out, I want to see if this poll would have the same results.

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And hopefully, remove ridiculous options like Standstill, Lackey, and Dreadnought.

Wizards should unbanned mana drain, the format is healthy enough where mana drain would not make landstill the best deck.
Besides the price this is the only card I want to see unbanned.

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Originally Posted by ummon

Could you open another poll? Now that another flame war has been fought out, I want to see if this poll would have the same results.

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I cannot do it, you should contact a moderator and ask him to open another poll, or open a new thread with an updated poll.

I'd like to have this list in the first post:

Amulet of Quoz
Ancestral Recall
Balance
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Bronze Tablet
Channel
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Falling Star
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Grim Monolith (unbanned July 1, 2010)
Gush
Hermit Druid
Illusionary Mask (unbanned July 1, 2010)
Imperial Seal
Jeweled Bird
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor (banned July 1, 2010)
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Rebirth
Shahrazad
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Tempest Efreet
Time Spiral
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Or, alternatively, just the link for quick reference of what is banned in the format and better discussion (possibly).

I'd like to discuss some card that should go from that list.
Druid and Tax imho are stupidly safe for unbanning. Druid decks are bad (no basic, 10 slots of useless cards), relatively slow compared to Storm combo, and hateable by every color (1/1 creature). Creatures that doesn't have an immediate impact on the game tend to be bad in this format, see Worker that was banned and never used after unbanning. Tax is a joke nowadays. Card would see 0 play.
Mindtwist and Earthcraft are also probably safe IMHO. Earthcraft-Squirrel nest imho is worse than painter-grindstone, and would make a much more interesting and interactive combo deck compared to stupidtendril.dec, being hateable by almost every color and deck, with pithing needle, burning tree shaman, every kind of enchantment removal (white-green) and wildfire/devastating dreams type of cards. Not to say counterspells and discard, but counterspells and discard counter everything.
Also, it may sound ridiculous but i'd like to see a format with mana vault. Grim Monolith see absolutely no play, maybe Vault could push artifact decks back in the format? The card isn't that great form storm combo being a colorless ritual and would maybe used in decks like Dream Halls, but i don't think it would break anything.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Also, it may sound ridiculous but i'd like to see a format with mana vault.

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It does. 4 Mana Vault in a Legacy deck would be completely pants on head retarded.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

I'd like to discuss some card that should go from that list.
Druid and Tax imho are stupidly safe for unbanning. Druid decks are bad (no basic, 10 slots of useless cards), relatively slow compared to Storm combo, and hateable by every color (1/1 creature). Creatures that doesn't have an immediate impact on the game tend to be bad in this format, see Worker that was banned and never used after unbanning. Tax is a joke nowadays. Card would see 0 play.
Mindtwist and Earthcraft are also probably safe IMHO. Earthcraft-Squirrel nest imho is worse than painter-grindstone, and would make a much more interesting and interactive combo deck compared to stupidtendril.dec, being hateable by almost every color and deck, with pithing needle, burning tree shaman, every kind of enchantment removal (white-green) and wildfire/devastating dreams type of cards. Not to say counterspells and discard, but counterspells and discard counter everything.
Also, it may sound ridiculous but i'd like to see a format with mana vault. Grim Monolith see absolutely no play, maybe Vault could push artifact decks back in the format? The card isn't that great form storm combo being a colorless ritual and would maybe used in decks like Dream Halls, but i don't think it would break anything.

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Mana Vault is so much better than Monolith could ever hope to be. One mana makes the difference. Earthcraft + Sacred Mesa + Wild Growth = infinite tokens, so Enchantress would probably be a better choice than the worst 2 card combo ever in deck form.

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Originally Posted by Meekrab

It does. 4 Mana Vault in a Legacy deck would be completely pants on head retarded.

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Can you name a few decks that would be pushed over the top with Mana Vault's unbanning? Would those decks become meta-warping?

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Originally Posted by Meekrab

It does. 4 Mana Vault in a Legacy deck would be completely pants on head retarded.

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Which one, precisely?

Storm combo wouldn't use it. Aluren wouldn't use it. Countertops wouldn't use it. Gobs and merfolk neither. Countertop topther, the gate and aggro loam wouldn't use it. TA and Lands wouldn't use it. Madness, survival and New Horizons wouldn't use it. The only current decks that would use it now are imho Dream Hall and Hive Mind, not exactly the two best decks ever.

Imho card is extremely overrated. This isn't Vintage, and Mana Vault would probably be used only in some kinds of (bad) prison/brown aggro decks.

The fact is, Vault is a card that is extremely good in decks with a lot of 3+ colorless mana costs, and currently legacy doesn't have a lot of that kind of cards played.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Which one, precisely?

Storm combo wouldn't use it. Aluren wouldn't use it. Countertops wouldn't use it. Gobs and merfolk neither. Countertop topther, the gate and aggro loam wouldn't use it. TA and Lands wouldn't use it. Madness, survival and New Horizons wouldn't use it. The only current decks that would use it now are imho Dream Hall and Hive Mind, not exactly the two best decks ever.

Imho card is extremely overrated. This isn't Vintage, and Mana Vault would probably be used only in some kinds of (bad) prison/brown aggro decks.

The fact is, Vault is a card that is extremely good in decks with a lot of 3+ colorless mana costs, and currently legacy doesn't have a lot of that kind of cards played.

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I agree with Druid, Tax, Earthcraft, and Mind Twist. Nothing degenerate here.

I think that Mana Vault would be an interesting card to experiment with; I think only MUD and artifact based decks would be the only ones that would want that much colorless mana once, more or less. However, with Scars of Mirrodin on the horizon I don't think they will take that kind of chance. I'm certain the last thing they want is to unbalance what is the best format in Magic. Ever.

Edit: Maybe Belcher would want Vault...

Besides Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Earthecraft, Mind Twist and Mana Vault (very risky), Yawgmoth's Bargain seems to be another safe candidate: Last time I check, Ad nauseam was an instant, cost 1 less mana and 0.1 less life per card.
Edit: If control decks survive to turn 6, they deserve winning and saving the match time.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I agree with Druid, Tax, Earthcraft, and Mind Twist. Nothing degenerate here.

I think that Mana Vault would be an interesting card to experiment with; I think only MUD and artifact based decks would be the only ones that would want that much colorless mana once, more or less. However, with Scars of Mirrodin on the horizon I don't think they will take that kind of chance. I'm certain the last thing they want is to unbalance what is the best format in Magic. Ever.

Edit: Maybe Belcher would want Vault...

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Good point about the new expansion, totally forgot about it.

About belcher, imho it wouldn't want it. Sure, it's a +1 compared to tinderwall, but you can't cast rituals, burning wish or manamorphose with it. On the other hand, it would be the only colorless mana source of the deck, so you can probably manage that mana optimally and would work nicely with Led giving a *delayed* ritual.
In any case, i don't think Belcher would be breaked by it, as it would be still just as inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Good point about the new expansion, totally forgot about it.

About belcher, imho it wouldn't want it. Sure, it's a +1 compared to tinderwall, but you can't cast rituals, burning wish or manamorphose with it. On the other hand, it would be the only colorless mana source of the deck, so you can probably manage that mana optimally and would work nicely with Led giving a *delayed* ritual.
In any case, i don't think Belcher would be breaked by it, as it would be still just as inconsistent.

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Not to sound snippy, but have you even played Belcher before? Mana Vault would replace Street Wraith in a heartbeat. Grim Monolith doesn't make the cut, but Mana Vault . . . holy shit . . . Lotus Petal --> Rite of Flame --> Mana Vault --> Empty the Warrens. Plus any other acceleration/storm contributors you may have. You can even replace Rite with Tinder Wall and you still get the same effect. With Empty the Warrens needing :3: and Charbelcher needing :7:, saying Belcher wouldn't want Mana Vault is like saying ANT wouldn't want Mystical because it doesn't draw you the card. Just makes you wonder if the person making the comment ever piloted the deck before. I simply could count how many times I was :1: shy of victory. :cry:

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Originally Posted by MMogg

Not to sound snippy, but have you even played Belcher before? Mana Vault would replace Street Wraith in a heartbeat. Grim Monolith doesn't make the cut, but Mana Vault . . . holy shit . . . Lotus Petal --> Rite of Flame --> Mana Vault --> Empty the Warrens. Plus any other acceleration/storm contributors you may have. You can even replace Rite with Tinder Wall and you still get the same effect. With Empty the Warrens needing :3: and Charbelcher needing :7:, saying Belcher wouldn't want Mana Vault is like saying ANT wouldn't want Mystical because it doesn't draw you the card. Just makes you wonder if the person making the comment ever piloted the deck before. I simply could count how many times I was :1: shy of victory. :cry:

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Yeah, i played Belcher, something like 2 years ago, but i'm not following the deck anymore so it's purely theory here. I'm not sure 3 is that much better than RR in belcher, but i'll test it right away.

EDIT: Tested a bit. Isn't Belcher just an horrible deck? You have no protection, you run only 7 win condition +4 tutors and also Empty the Warrens is just a bad win condition in a deck with 8 ESG/SSG, 4 Tinderwalls and no draw spells. Not to talk about the fact that a lot of decks can race 10-12 goblins on turn 2, run sweepers, discard (a single thoughtseize rape you) and counters.
Even with 4 Vault instead of 4 Wraiths, deck would still massively suck as it would still be just too inconsistent and vulnerable.

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Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

Besides Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Earthecraft, Mind Twist and Mana Vault (very risky), Yawgmoth's Bargain seems to be another safe candidate: Last time I check, Ad nauseam was an instant, cost 1 less mana and 0.1 less life per card.
Edit: If control decks survive to turn 6, they deserve winning and saving the match time.

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I have Hermit Druid built and have played against it. Not that it is the most powerful deck out there, but winning the turn it activates is not fun to play against. It comes down to removal,counter and hope they do not FoW/Daze it, at 2 mana a 1st turn Hermit is very easy to play and protect. Because the deck wins once activated and Cabal Therapy can clear removal/FoWs off nacros, i would say leave this alone.

The only thing is that most of these cards have no playable home due to power level in Vintage.

Earthcraft is pretty good in Elves combo, but not as powerful w/o Skullclamp to refuel.

Lol @ Bargain, Really? Bargain = Repeating Ad Naus. Bargain is no joke and will win on spot.

Mana Vault is too much for Legacy since restrictions wouldnt be in place. Colorless ritual x4 that is :pay 1 tap for 3..Would make it into a lot of combo decks.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I have Hermit Druid built and have played against it. Not that it is the most powerful deck out there, but winning the turn it activates is not fun to play against. It comes down to removal,counter and hope they do not FoW/Daze it, at 2 mana a 1st turn Hermit is very easy to play and protect. Because the deck wins once activated and Cabal Therapy can clear removal/FoWs off nacros, i would say leave this alone.

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Druid based decks are bad Show and Tell or Storm decks.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Lol @ Bargain, Really? Bargain = Repeating Ad Naus. Bargain is no joke and will win on spot.

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A minor technicality. You wouldn't be repeating AdN, since you won't have the life total for it unless you fire off a mini-Tendrils. But if you have Yawg, why bother? You just replay all the stuff in your yard, and chances are what you have there already is enough.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Yeah, i played Belcher, something like 2 years ago, but i'm not following the deck anymore so it's purely theory here. I'm not sure 3 is that much better than RR in belcher, but i'll test it right away.

EDIT: Tested a bit. Isn't Belcher just an horrible deck? You have no protection, you run only 7 win condition +4 tutors and also Empty the Warrens is just a bad win condition in a deck with 8 ESG/SSG, 4 Tinderwalls and no draw spells. Not to talk about the fact that a lot of decks can race 10-12 goblins on turn 2, run sweepers, discard (a single thoughtseize rape you) and counters.
Even with 4 Vault instead of 4 Wraiths, deck would still massively suck as it would still be just too inconsistent and vulnerable.

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I think you're still underestimating Mana Vault's power (may it stay banned forever). :r::r: into :r::r::r: (Rite/Tinder -->Desperate Ritual) versus :r::r: into :r::3: (Rite/Tinder-->Mana Vault), for example, Rite-->Mana Vault --> Seething Song --> Burning Wish --> EtWarrens. Not to get into so many imaginary plays, but suffice to say, all Belcher's win conditions need :3: minimum, making Mana Vault a bomb at its :1: investment.

As for consistency issues, this is probably better suited for the Belcher thread itself, but I will say that the more you play the deck, the more you learn to fight through the hate. That said, if you don't have or incorrectly uses your hate against Belcher, then you better hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide yo husband too cuz errbody gettin' raped out here. Of course, it's a classic style combo deck meaning it needs its pieces and when you take those pieces away or stop them, you fail: welcome to playing combo.

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Originally Posted by MMogg

I think you're still underestimating Mana Vault's power (may it stay banned forever). :r::r: into :r::r::r: (Rite/Tinder -->Desperate Ritual) versus :r::r: into :r::3: (Rite/Tinder-->Mana Vault), for example, Rite-->Mana Vault --> Seething Song --> Burning Wish --> EtWarrens. Not to get into so many imaginary plays, but suffice to say, all Belcher's win conditions need :3: minimum, making Mana Vault a bomb at its :1: investment.

As for consistency issues, this is probably better suited for the Belcher thread itself, but I will say that the more you play the deck, the more you learn to fight through the hate. That said, if you don't have or incorrectly uses your hate against Belcher, then you better hide yo kids, hide yo wife and hide yo husband too cuz errbody gettin' raped out here. Of course, it's a classic style combo deck meaning it needs its pieces and when you take those pieces away or stop them, you fail: welcome to playing combo.

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Yes i understand my inability to play combo, but my point was mainly that Vault wouldn't break anything. Belcher is and remain a pretty bad deck even with Vault, nowhere near black based storm decks.
Vault imho it's largely overrated in this format, and while i'm pretty sure it wold see play whereas Monolith did not, i'm also pretty sure it would suffer ultimately of the same problem: it wouldn't have a good home in this format.
Also, i'd really like some form of brown to be viable in legacy, but it's probably impossible being this a blue and creature based format.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Yes i understand my inability to play combo, but my point was mainly that Vault wouldn't break anything. Belcher is and remain a pretty bad deck even with Vault, nowhere near black based storm decks.
Vault imho it's largely overrated in this format, and while i'm pretty sure it wold see play whereas Monolith did not, i'm also pretty sure it would suffer ultimately of the same problem: it wouldn't have a good home in this format.
Also, i'd really like some form of brown to be viable in legacy, but it's probably impossible being this a blue and creature based format.

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Yeah, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't think you're grasping HOW broken Mana Vault would be... allow me one final example:

Elvish Spirit Guide --> Mana Vault --> Mana Vault --> Belcher --> LED, win.

That's not so far fetched. Even now, with no Vault, I sometimes have to go into sideboarding without having any clue what my opponent was playing because I Belched him turn one on the play. I know, Belcher is not now and never will break Legacy, but I'm just looking at how Vault would change Belcher, and that alone is a huge impact. What I'm saying is what kind of change would it bring to other more flexible combo decks?

Turn 1 Island,
Turn 2 Island --> Mana Vault, Show and Tell (with mana left floating for Daze) and probably with Force back up.

There are other combo decks much more consistent and fiercer that would jump at Mana Vault as an accelerator.

I mean, I am a combo player and a Belcher player at that, and even I'm saying I don't want to see Mana vault unbanned. Only bad things can come of it. :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Cabal_chan

A minor technicality. You wouldn't be repeating AdN, since you won't have the life total for it unless you fire off a mini-Tendrils. But if you have Yawg, why bother? You just replay all the stuff in your yard, and chances are what you have there already is enough.

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You're thinking of Yawgmoth's Will. Two problem situations with Yawgmoth's Bargain:

1. Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood:

It saves you 2 mana and it gives you 2 protection spells (if you Therapy it), and you get to win the game by drawing your whole deck. At the worst, if you don't draw the sac outlet, your opponent can't win without an evasion creature. See Oath of Druids for general unfun factor.

2. U/B Tendrils decks:

Ad Nauseum can't be cheated, and you can lose even after it resolves by shit luck. It also restricts deck construction by forcing you to have a lot of low CMC cards, making it a singleton you have to tutor up. You can run 4 Bargain, and the CMC restriciton means you can protect it with FOW. Also, since you're already running 4 copies of it and Force, why not throw in Show and Tell for possible turn 1 Bargain? Totally broken in storm combo. Necropotence would be a safer card to unban since you get the cards during your end step.[/QUOTE]

When is the new list supposed to come out anyway?

20th of September.

lol @ Mana Vault. I will play MUD all damn day if they unban that. Turn 1 Lodestone Golem? Yes please!

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Originally Posted by MMogg

Yeah, not trying to beat a dead horse, but I really don't think you're grasping HOW broken Mana Vault would be... allow me one final example:

Elvish Spirit Guide --> Mana Vault --> Mana Vault --> Belcher --> LED, win.

That's not so far fetched. Even now, with no Vault, I sometimes have to go into sideboarding without having any clue what my opponent was playing because I Belched him turn one on the play. I know, Belcher is not now and never will break Legacy, but I'm just looking at how Vault would change Belcher, and that alone is a huge impact. What I'm saying is what kind of change would it bring to other more flexible combo decks?

Turn 1 Island,
Turn 2 Island --> Mana Vault, Show and Tell (with mana left floating for Daze) and probably with Force back up.

There are other combo decks much more consistent and fiercer that would jump at Mana Vault as an accelerator.

I mean, I am a combo player and a Belcher player at that, and even I'm saying I don't want to see Mana vault unbanned. Only bad things can come of it. :laugh:

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You're just listing god hands, and what Vault can do in your examples, Dark ritual can do too. Or even Rite of flame in your second case.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

You're just listing god hands, and what Vault can do in your examples, Dark ritual can do too. Or even Rite of flame in your second case.

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You're absolutely right, let's unban Mana Vault right now.

Wait, SnT, Vault and a random eldrazi is a god hand? (including up to two draws, not even counting cantrips first turn)

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Originally Posted by MMogg

You're absolutely right, let's unban Mana Vault right now.

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Find better examples then, because i'm not scared by a colorless dark ritual. If you're so sure Vault would be broken, find better examples (like a list) or play me on MWS or something. Because you're not convincing me or anyone else by using Vault as a colorless ritual in your examples. Also, history showed me that Vault was busted in decks like Tinker, Academy or Stax, none of them is actually present in Legacy.
Just to say, in current Vintage, the Mana Vault slot in combo is often debated, and some people actually run Cabal ritual (iirc Smemmen prefer to run Vault in his storm decks) before it since it sinergize better with a lot of cards in your graveyard and YagWill, plus colored casting costs. Vault is usually an auto-include only if you play FoF or Gift. Also, since Vault is better in Brown decks, i actually think that the eventual unban of it would nerf combo, not buff it, by making prison actually viable in the format.
Not that i advocate the unbanning of it right before the printing of a big artifact set that could bring brown to a playable level even in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by leander?

Wait, SnT, Vault and a random eldrazi is a god hand? (including up to two draws, not even counting cantrips first turn)

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Vault wouldn't even be played in SnT decks and SnT can easily be played on turn two with no need of it. The examples that were listed showed a Vault used like a colorless Dark Ritual.
I'll repeat, i'm sure Vault would be played, but i can't see a single deck broken by it. Belcher would just be improved by it, but it would still just too inconsistent compared to storm (read; worse), unless there's something i can't see when i try it and when i play storm. The large majority of deck doesn't even have a card with 3 colorless in its mana cost. If someone want to test a decklist with me on MWS to prove me wrong i'll be glad, seriously.

EDIT: completely forgot about AdN costing 3BB and not 2BBB. Lol k. Card is bonkers.

Is mana acceleration really what Stax needs in Legacy?

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Originally Posted by jrsthethird

You're thinking of Yawgmoth's Will. Two problem situations with Yawgmoth's Bargain:

1. Academy Rector + Cabal Therapy/Innocent Blood:

It saves you 2 mana and it gives you 2 protection spells (if you Therapy it), and you get to win the game by drawing your whole deck. At the worst, if you don't draw the sac outlet, your opponent can't win without an evasion creature. See Oath of Druids for general unfun factor.

2. U/B Tendrils decks:

Ad Nauseum can't be cheated, and you can lose even after it resolves by shit luck. It also restricts deck construction by forcing you to have a lot of low CMC cards, making it a singleton you have to tutor up. You can run 4 Bargain, and the CMC restriciton means you can protect it with FOW. Also, since you're already running 4 copies of it and Force, why not throw in Show and Tell for possible turn 1 Bargain? Totally broken in storm combo. Necropotence would be a safer card to unban since you get the cards during your end step.

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I have to agree with you:tongue: A permanent is indeed much more troublesome than an instant, totally overlooked it. It may not be unfair, but must be unfun (like unbanning Black Vise or Skullclamp).

Mana Vault - only being a colorless dark ritual does not warrant to be safe: a functional reprint of dark ritual would make the format degenerate as combos with 8 best rituals are just so consistent. The interaction with Voltaic Key is abusable, though not a huge factor to claim against the unbanning.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Druid based decks are bad Show and Tell or Storm decks.

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I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

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Yeah, I would probably just combine a dredge plan and a venge-vival plan. Narco-Bridge-Therapy with Anger and possibly LED. Should be consistant turn 2/3 combo potential and a Venge slow-roll. It'd basically function like an improved Dredge.

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Originally Posted by menace13

I don't think they play out the same at all. Storm needs chaining of spells and SnT needs 2 parts, Hermit just needs Hermit to tap...that's all.
The combo is 12-14 cards-the last 2 being Bridge from Below and Guile to ensure a second swing. One could easily play Goyfs,Stiflenought, or sb into SnT Emrakul, since the Shell retains FoW,Daze,Pierce,Seize,Therapy. It is capable of turn 2 wins and is easy to protect and clear space for. I don't know why you think it is a bad deck.

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You're right they don't play out the same at all because the aforementioned decks dont eat it to commonly played removal spells like Bolt Plow/PTE and don't have a vulnerability to GY hate. You're better off just putting an Emrakul into play and locking up the game from there. Emrakul is even kind enough to be incredibly hard to remove outside of a few narow cards. Good luck getting Hermit Druid into play and untapping with him in a format where every deck can attack your combo from multiple angles.

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

There should be an option for nothing to be banned.

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Hello? The pool is from ages ago and actually, we were discussing the unbanning of some debatable cards.

Or maybe you're just trolling.