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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
majikal
Standard cards aren't really so bad right now. The only real offender is Jace, and even he has leveled off around $45 from what I'm seeing on MOTL. The biggest problem is presale prices - the speculators drive the market into a frenzy initially, but it always levels off a week or two after release.
I can definately agree with this. When everyone and their mother wants a playset of Jace 2, and there are practically none of them in stock because it's a PRE-sale, the price is naturally going to balloon like crazy.
I also think that Wizards clamping down on the spoilers massively has been a factor to this as well. On Salvation, we could have a card get spoiled that turns into a chase rare, but since it was spoiled like three weeks before the pre-release, it gives some time for the hype to cool down. Since Jace 2 was fully spoiled by Wizards like a week and a half before the prelease, the hype started much later before the set was fully spoiled.
I am fully expecting Jace 2 to slowly drop in price over time. Simply put, there will actually be an *increase* in stock to help curb the slowly decreasing demand (now that the initial hype is starting to subside). Unfortunately, we can't say the same for the supply for Legacy staples that have been out of print for well over a decade.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
where do you do this PRE-sell I do not understand that ?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chupe mi pinga
where do you do this PRE-sell I do not understand that ?
People that crack large numbers of boxes can sell cards on e-bay ahead of time.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
A handful of people will lose a few hundred dollars apiece
Really disagree here, I would think it would be far more than a few hundred dollars. If my Power, Vintage/Legacy staples were all reprinted I feel as though I would lose a lot of money.
Sure whatever to all the rest.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think there's a fine line between responsibly reprinting certain staples such that we can bump the available cardpool and oversaturating the market such that collectors will no longer have confidence in Wizards.
I have a very extensive collection--40 duals, 40 fetches (plus a few extras), playsets of Goyfs, FOWs, Mox Diamonds, Chrome Moxes, LEDs, Dreadnoughts, pretty much 90% of the staples you'd need to play any deck (and I'm still actively working on acquiring the last 10%). But I'm also really just a casual player. I've probably only busted my cards out to play like five times in the last five years, even as I continue to expand my collection to include stuff I don't have. Right now I simply don't have the time to play this game, as much as I enjoy the collectible aspect of the game.
The only way I can justify spending so much money on cards that I hardly ever use is because I have faith that most of the staples will continue to appreciate in price, or at the very least, maintain their value or not plummet significantly. (Aside: It's for this reason I have less problem shelling out $250 for a Mox than $10 for a Standard staple that I know will quickly depreciate.)
If Wizards reprints certain staples responsibly, I'm okay with a minor hit to the value of cards I already have. It ensures that the format will be there if I ever get the time to play more competitively, and financially, it ensures that there will be a steady playerbase and thus demand for the cards I already have, so I don't need to worry about the value of the cards plummeting in the longterm.
On the other hand, if Wizards releases a Chronicles II or absolutely floods the market with the original dual land reprints in a new core set (which will have an massive print run), there will be significant repercussions on the secondary market, which would be absolutely crippling for a collectible card game that will be felt by everyone. Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard. One might underestimate the number of "casual old-school" players like me because we don't tend to pop up on message boards. We may not pour as money into the boosters as say, a hardcore Standard or Limited player, but I still do spend quite a bit of money each year in new products, and I think we play a bigger role that most people realize in shaping the secondary market.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lordofthepit
I've probably only busted my cards out to play like five times in the last five years, even as I continue to expand my collection to include stuff I don't have. Right now I simply don't have the time to play this game, as much as I enjoy the collectible aspect of the game.
I wonder to what extent MTGO may attract people when Legacy is launched. I know for me, I use it for Pauper since time constraints and the fact that there is no Magic here whatsoever give me no chance to use my paper cards. Now, I am seriously contemplating building an online Legacy deck as a way to stay active. Cards are often cheaper than their paper counterparts (particularly glaring in the case of Moat/Tabernacle). You can also play a game or two whenever you can fit it into your schedule.
With cards like Mox Diamond and LED pretty expensive in the virtual world, I wonder if we will see something there before they start to tamper with the paper realm.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lordofthepit
I think there's a fine line between responsibly reprinting certain staples such that we can bump the available cardpool and oversaturating the market such that collectors will no longer have confidence in Wizards.
I have a very extensive collection--40 duals, 40 fetches (plus a few extras), playsets of Goyfs, FOWs, Mox Diamonds, Chrome Moxes, LEDs, Dreadnoughts, pretty much 90% of the staples you'd need to play any deck (and I'm still actively working on acquiring the last 10%). But I'm also really just a casual player. I've probably only busted my cards out to play like five times in the last five years, even as I continue to expand my collection to include stuff I don't have. Right now I simply don't have the time to play this game, as much as I enjoy the collectible aspect of the game.
The only way I can justify spending so much money on cards that I hardly ever use is because I have faith that most of the staples will continue to appreciate in price, or at the very least, maintain their value or not plummet significantly. (Aside: It's for this reason I have less problem shelling out $250 for a Mox than $10 for a Standard staple that I know will quickly depreciate.)
If Wizards reprints certain staples responsibly, I'm okay with a minor hit to the value of cards I already have. It ensures that the format will be there if I ever get the time to play more competitively, and financially, it ensures that there will be a steady playerbase and thus demand for the cards I already have, so I don't need to worry about the value of the cards plummeting in the longterm.
On the other hand, if Wizards releases a Chronicles II or absolutely floods the market with the original dual land reprints in a new core set (which will have an massive print run), there will be significant repercussions on the secondary market, which would be absolutely crippling for a collectible card game that will be felt by everyone. Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard. One might underestimate the number of "casual old-school" players like me because we don't tend to pop up on message boards. We may not pour as money into the boosters as say, a hardcore Standard or Limited player, but I still do spend quite a bit of money each year in new products, and I think we play a bigger role that most people realize in shaping the secondary market.
QFT. I'm in the same boat. I'm mostly just a collector atm because the people I used to play with regularly live quite a ways away. I don't mind a bit of the value of my collection as long as I can still play Legacy years from now.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lordofthepit
On the other hand, if Wizards releases a Chronicles II or absolutely floods the market with the original dual land reprints in a new core set (which will have an massive print run), there will be significant repercussions on the secondary market, which would be absolutely crippling for a collectible card game that will be felt by everyone. Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard. One might underestimate the number of "casual old-school" players like me because we don't tend to pop up on message boards. We may not pour as money into the boosters as say, a hardcore Standard or Limited player, but I still do spend quite a bit of money each year in new products, and I think we play a bigger role that most people realize in shaping the secondary market.
This one is the argument I can't agree with. Decks using dual lands make for +85% of the format. So restricting access to them is basically shutting the doors to the format. The needs of the game are more important than the needs of a few collectors. I'm fact, I'm so angry at you people hoarding duals that I'll buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals just so that I can recite poems and play the lyre while the values tank.
PD: I own duals and I'm all for reprinting them in core sets. They should have never been in the reserved list to begin with. The people that took them from fourth edition where the same idiots that took Serra Angel out from fifth edition because it was too strong to reprint, anyways. It was a foolish move and they ended stumbling with the stone, but instead of removing the stone they have chosen to close their eyes and keep falling again and again making the situation worse every day. Those people can suck my foot.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DrJones
This one is the argument I can't agree with. Decks using dual lands make for +85% of the format. So restricting access to them is basically shutting the doors to the format. The needs of the game are more important than the needs of a few collectors. I'm fact, I'm so angry at you people hoarding duals that I'll buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals just so that I can recite poems and play the lyre while the values tank.
PD: I own duals and I'm all for reprinting them in core sets. They should have never been in the reserved list to begin with. The people that took them from fourth edition where the same idiots that took Serra Angel out from fifth edition because it was too strong to reprint, anyways. It was a foolish move and they ended stumbling with the stone, but instead of removing the stone they have chosen to close their eyes and keep falling again and again making the situation worse every day. Those people can suck my foot.
Applause. I would probably not agree so much if it weren't for their incessant revamping of Magic and what "real" Magic should be. Oh, duals are too good, let's make Tempest shite lands like Mogg Hollows... let's make it so people play only mono-colored decks. Nah, let's have them play multi-colored, but allied only. Nah, how about all color combos are ok, but two. Nah, how about three colored decks. Jesus titty-friggin Christus, will they stop it already. Same goes for re-aligning the color pie and what colors can do what. I'm not so sure the game has evolved better than 10 years ago. I was having the same amount of fun then.
I'm all for evolution and experimentation, but like Tha Doc says, making mistakes and then straight jacketing yourself so you're unable to correct them is lunacy. The only other option than reprinting is power creeping, which would entail, what? Tri-color duals? How much more bitching would you get from everyone who now wants to own playsets of those? There's no easy solution, but that's not an excuse for doing nothing.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think Duals are a bit too strong for standard personally, but could see them reprinted along with some old and new non-basic hate. Maybe colorless landhate (wasteland)? Or possibly just Magus of the Moon and Back to Basics.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I own 40 duals (4x each), 4 Tarmogoyfs, 4 Force of Wills, 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, 20x ZEN fetches, 10x ONS fetches, etc., etc.
And I wouldn't mind seeing WotC reprint stuff like duals and Forces and older staples (Mox Diamond, LED, Dreadnought, etc., etc.). I know a lot of people in my area who would like to get into Legacy, but the initial cost barrier is too high for them (and they understand the reasoning behind Legacy being cheaper in the long run than Standard) with the ridiculous prices of duals, Forces, Goyfs, etc., etc.
I'd love to see a FTV: Lands that included 1 of each dual land in new art, frame, and foiled. Sure, it would be expensive...but when the dust settled, either the FTV duals would be cheaper than Revised (and below) duals, or Revised duals would drop in price as people off loaded them to get the FTV duals. Either way, Legacy would benefit greatly from it.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DrJones
This one is the argument I can't agree with. Decks using dual lands make for +85% of the format. So restricting access to them is basically shutting the doors to the format. The needs of the game are more important than the needs of a few collectors. I'm fact, I'm so angry at you people hoarding duals that I'll buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals just so that I can recite poems and play the lyre while the values tank.
PD: I own duals and I'm all for reprinting them in core sets. They should have never been in the reserved list to begin with. The people that took them from fourth edition where the same idiots that took Serra Angel out from fifth edition because it was too strong to reprint, anyways. It was a foolish move and they ended stumbling with the stone, but instead of removing the stone they have chosen to close their eyes and keep falling again and again making the situation worse every day. Those people can suck my foot.
I'm not a collector, I'm a casual player. This is the first time I've heard of someone accuse me of "hoarding duals" just because I went out and acquired a playset of each so that I can play with them.
Magic is a game we all love, but there's no need to get all emotional about the reprint policy. More power to you if you can "buy WotC right now and flood the market with duals". That's an emotional decision that would not be in Wizard's best interests, or your own, financially . (And it would also probably violate a lot of SEC regulations with Wizards being a publicly traded company and everything, but that's not something I want to get into.)
I'm not "hoarding duals" so I can profit off the game. But as a casual player (i.e. someone who will never make money or win prizes from playing competitive Magic), if I see Wizards making a bad financial decision that threatens to undermine the secondary market, I'll going to be less inclined to continue buy cards because without a stable economy to back up their value, they're just pieces of cardboard. That's a personal decision I'm making on a personal level, and I'm sure many more feel the same. I'm not threatening to torture cute furry kittens or anything, so I don't know why felt obligated to get "so angry".
I agree that Wizards need to provide greater access to dual lands. Everyone knows that generating more interest in the Legacy is in everyone recreational (and probably even long-term financial) interests, and I certainly didn't slowly buy such a big collection just so I can sit and admire them by myself (I hope to play with them when I have more time). But to flood the market just so that you can recite poems and play the lyre would be really a irresponsible decision that hurts everyone involved in the game. And surprisingly enough, even though I'm sure you directed that comment to get a reaction out of me, casual players like me who generally are the least emotionally/financially attached to the game probably would come out the least affected. I'd just stop collecting new cards, set them aside untouched for a few years (which I've done three times already), and regard my already acquired collection as a sunk cost. I only hope for the sake of the game that whoever makes decision for Wizard doesn't feel compelled to engage in self-destructive behavior just so they can say "haha, look at you, casual player, we've got you now".
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lordofthepit
Not just collectors, but most long-time players and especially the casual market (players like me) would no longer be able to justify the money we're putting into what are essentially pieces of cardboard.
If all of a sudden you can't justify paying $50 for a Tundra...GOOD, that is exactly what we want to have happen! We WANT people to lower what they are willing to pay for cards, that is what a drop in prices IS.
Furthermore, I think you have some very specific blinders on. Do you think anyone who plays standard or extended or even kitchen table Magic expects to be able to resell their cards? Remember, every card in every set since Mercadian Masques has had ZERO promise of non-reprintability. Anyone who buys any card printed since then has done so with no assurance whatsoever that their cards will retain any value. Let me put that in perspective:
90% of the cards from Alpha through Urza's Destiny have zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Mercadian Masques has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Nemesis has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Prophecy has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Invasion has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Planeshift has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Apocalypse has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Odyssey has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Torment has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Judgment has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Onslaught has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Legions has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Scourge has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Mirrodin has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Darksteel has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Fifth Dawn has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Champions of Kamigawa has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Betrayers of Kamigawa has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Saviors of Kamigawa has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Ravnica has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Guildpact has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Dissension has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Time Spiral has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Planar Chaos has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Future Sight has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Coldsnap has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Lorwyn has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Morningtide has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Shadowmoor has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Eventide has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Shards of Alara has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Conflux has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Alara Reborn has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Zendikar has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Worldwake has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 7th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 8th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 9th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in 10th edition has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in M2010 has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Portal has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Portal Second Age has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Portal three Kingdoms has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in Starter and Starter 2000 has zero promise of retaining any value.
Every card in every version of these sets released on Magic Online has zero promise of retaining any value, and this includes Master's Edition I, II, and III, which contain staples such as FoW and duals and also some P3K cards.
That is a HUGE amount of cards that are bought and sold with absolutely no guarantee that Wizards won't reprint the shit out of them tomorrow. People have bought and sold these cards, establishing a market successfully for over a decade without any safety net. It's really the height of narcissism to think that a threat to the market for the cards on the reserved list is anything close to a threat to the market for Magic cards as a whole.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
If all of a sudden you can't justify paying $50 for a Tundra...GOOD, that is exactly what we want to have happen! We WANT people to lower what they are willing to pay for cards, that is what a drop in prices IS.
This is going to be my last post on this topic. I'm willing to discuss this issue intelligently with the Source community, because I think it's very important for the long-term health of Legacy (and Magic overall). But it's not fun to argue when you're just making up positions and attributing them to me, so I don't want to go on trying to distance myself from positions that I've never taken.
I've never said anything to suggest that a $50 Tundra is healthy for the game. In fact, I've done the opposite, explicitly stating that I think Wizards needs to reprint staples in a responsible manner. To me, that means increasing the supply in a controlled fashion such that Tundras can hover around $20. I think that would represent a perfectly reasonable barrier to entry for the format, and I'd be fine with that compromise, even though I lose financially (I paid around $30 each for mine). I don't view Magic as some kind of investment, and I'm perfectly willing to take a bit of a hit to the value of my collection to promote the long-term health of the game.
Where I disagree is with reprinting dual lands in a core set with such massive print runs. The Zendikar fetchlands are $9 each and steadily dropping as we speak, and I would say that to a good approximation, fetchlands are used as much as dual lands in every format in which they are legal; in other words, there is equal demand. (True, some decks will prefer to use more duals than fetches, whereas others will use more fetches than duals to take advantage of benefits such as shuffling and filling the graveyard.) If we made dual land reprints available on such a large scale, in addition to the dual lands that are already available, we would have a significantly greater supply of dual lands than fetchlands, with comparable demand, so I can easily see the value of duals plummeting to $10-12 ("pimped" versions notwithstanding). This is based purely on an approximation of supply versus demand, and doesn't even account for the impact of the backlash from players unhappy with the new reprints. Greater supply by itself is a good thing, but it has significant, likely unpredictable, consequences on the stability of the Magic economy that I don't think is worth risking.
Thanks for taking almost two pages to state that the reserve list doesn't cover a lot of cards, which you could have said rather succinctly. But what you're failing to account for is that it's not so much the explicit reserve policy that holds up the secondary market, but rather, the expectation that certain cards won't get reprinted in such massive quantities. If Wizards tomorrow announced that they would reprint in M11 Mana Drain, Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Grim Tutor, Strategic Planning, Loyal Retainers, Imperial Seal, etc., I'm sure there would be quite a reaction from the Magic community even without violating a single word of their reprint policy.
I'm not discussing this from the perspective of my personal financial interests. There are still many more cards I'd love to acquire some day (Tabernacle, Moat, Mana Drain, Bazaars, Workshops, Power 9 minus Ruby, "Portal powers", etc.). For the sake of argument, let's suppose I had the ability to tell Wizards which cards to reprint in M11. One would think I would benefit if I told them to reprint exactly the cards that I am still looking to acquiring, while excluding from M11 the cards that I already do own. But I also understand that such reprinting would affect the stability of the "Magic economy", and thus be detrimental to the long-term health of the game.
The reprint policy should not be viewed as a struggle between "haves" and "have nots". Decisions should be made judiciously, balancing the need to address the increasing demand for cards by a responsible increase in supply, while still being sensitive to the effects on the secondary market, which is vital to the long-term health of the game. Would the game die if Wizards reprinted Tarmogoyf--a very powerful and expensive card--in M11? Probably not, but the cumulative effect of reprinting many expensive Legacy staples in a set with such a huge printrun would be detrimental to the game, and that's why I'm advocating for responsible reprinting (probably done in some type of premium set like From the Vault or as part of a Rewards program, although I'm not sure on the details of such).
With that said, I'm bowing out of this topic, because I do not want to bother with having to reply to posts in which people are putting words in my mouth that I have never spoken.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...rt_2_of_3.html
Here is today's article by Ben Bleiweiss on SCG. I think he does a REALLY good job of presenting an argument in favor of getting rid of the reserve list. I'd love to see the dual land mail in program he talks about there go into effect. It'd be chaos though. Would they give NM new versions for beat to hell revised duals? What about NM ones? I'd be annoyed if I got the exact same thing for both unless my duals were beat to hell.
Either way, read it with an open mind.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
anonymos
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/m...rt_2_of_3.html
Here is today's article by Ben Bleiweiss on SCG. I think he does a REALLY good job of presenting an argument in favor of getting rid of the reserve list. I'd love to see the dual land mail in program he talks about there go into effect. It'd be chaos though. Would they give NM new versions for beat to hell revised duals? What about NM ones? I'd be annoyed if I got the exact same thing for both unless my duals were beat to hell.
Either way, read it with an open mind.
Ya its the first time i've heard of the mailing thing. I think it should be for any condition duals, because the theory is to double the amount of a certain card. I'd be all for that.
Otherwize, if reserved list is abolished and a major reprint of a staple is reprinted, I'd probably go ahead and cash out.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I am not even sure if I like this game anymore...
I played in a 14 ppl tournament today with Ichorid and finished 1:2 due to unbelievably crap luck in rounds 2+3. Losing to double Wasteland from the top (when the only thing I needed to win was the Colliseum activation) was very unpleasant indeed, but losing round three because I've drawn sideboard cards had extreme "WTF?" aspect.
A day or two before my wedding I sold some stuff from my collection. Just some duals and more expensive stuff and I am really happy with that move. The prices of staples (and not only of them) are far beyond ridicule. Goyf? 1650 CZK. (I bought playset for 200 crowns three years ago.) Angel of Kiddies' Wet Dreams? Over one thousand crowns. Dark Depths? Five hundred. Elspeth? Entomb? Eight hundred. Same goes for Force, 'Nought, even crap like Jace. Sliver Queen? (Yeah, I know you have to look it up in Gatherer...) 590 crowns. Shaharazad (banned from M:tG!) costs over thousand crowns and they have exactly none in stock. Tabernacle? You're straight kidding me... 3200 CZK.
I hope that I find the strength to further restrict my collection and in the next twelve months I end with a deck or two and as few crap in a binder as possible. I start to really hate MtG. I know that this happens from time to time, it is just usual "sinusoity" and I'll return back to the game after few years. But right now I feel like a total moron every time I just catch a glimpse of my Magic box.
So yeah, reprint whatever you want, cause I officially quit. Just wait until I sell my cards...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
But it's not fun to argue when you're just making up positions and attributing them to me
Okay, if I have misconstrued your position, I apologize. I did not mean to do so. Here is the larger quote:
Quote:
The only way I can justify spending so much money on cards that I hardly ever use is because I have faith that most of the staples will continue to appreciate in price, or at the very least, maintain their value or not plummet significantly. (Aside: It's for this reason I have less problem shelling out $250 for a Mox than $10 for a Standard staple that I know will quickly depreciate.)
I took this to mean that you desire that staples should maintain their current prices. Meaning your preferred future is one where dual lands maintain their $45-$60 price tag, FoW maintains its $35 price, etc. I think this was a very reasonable way to read your words, given the bolded part. Nothing in the above quote suggests that you would find a $20 Tundra acceptable (and as a $20 Tundra IS a "significant plummet" from its current price, so in fact your statements seem directly contradictory), so if I did not portray your position accurately, that is why.
That said, look at quotes like:
Quote:
I'm sure there would be quite a reaction from the Magic community even without violating a single word of their reprint policy.
Quote:
the cumulative effect of reprinting many expensive Legacy staples in a set with such a huge printrun would be detrimental to the game
Quote:
Decisions should be made judiciously, balancing the need to address the increasing demand for cards by a responsible increase in supply, while still being sensitive to the effects on the secondary market, which is vital to the long-term health of the game.
That kind of hyperbole is why I made my point in the exhaustive way I did. I wanted to highlight how ridiculous it is to portray the downsides of reprints as a threat to the entire Magic community, or the game as a whole. I wanted to point out that the Magic community, as a whole, finds the very concept of a reserved list alien and laughable. And I wanted to point out that the secondary market for reserved list cards is NOT vital to the long-term health of the game, because it's such a small portion of the secondary market.
Ben Bleiweiss makes this point very succinctly: even without a reserved list, people still buy and sell $100 Tarmogoyfs and $35 FoW and $20 Jittes and $120 Grim Tutors and lots of other expensive cards. The secondary market for expensive cards would do just fine without a reserved list, and I know this because it's doing so right now. The claim that spending on Magic would be seriously impacted without the reserved list (the "take my ball and go home" threat) has no basis in fact. It is a myth., and arguments based on it are fallacious.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
I wanted to point out that the Magic community, as a whole, finds the very concept of a reserved list alien and laughable?
Link? Credentials? I mean, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm just wondering who appointed you the spokesman for "the Magic community."
Look, I don't necessarily object to the judicious reprinting of Legacy staples. I just object to the idea of $10 dual lands, to harken back to one of your earlier posts.
But I can see where this is all heading, which is why I'm going to be selling off my excess Legacy staples in the next few months. I already took a bath on my 401k. Don't need my Magic collection to depreciate 40% overnight, too.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
But I can see where this is all heading, which is why I'm going to be selling off my excess Legacy staples in the next few months. I already took a bath on my 401k. Don't need my Magic collection to depreciate 40% overnight, too.
This.
Btw, a friend of mine always tells the story how he lost 2 millions of czech crowns overnight (about 50k USD in those times), when Star Wars were discontinued. Even though I realy love those thrilling stories that experienced hunters share by the winter campfires, I am not willing to be one of those storytellers. I rather stay greenhorn.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Well, I'm fairly nervous about all the talk going on and am dumping at the very least all my Vintage stuff and any extra items I keep for investments sake. I would stand to lose thousands upon thousands if they decided to really go into that reserve list much at all, so time to dump. Expect a few really rare and hard to find things to hit the bay soon. It's just it seems to me with all the talk, there has to be people listening and reading these boards who really do have some control of this stuff.
It's about time it happened anyway.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm going to pipe up one more time on these boards. Initially I was just making fun of the prices that have gone ballistic and the idea that people feel they have any right to tell Hasbro what to do regarding reprints. I also had a nauseous reaction to the price of Loyal Retainers which in my mind is only good as a 1 of in 1 deck and was obviously driven by speculation. I'm also puzzled by Tabernacle prices to a point because they have reached mox level pricing more or less. The thing with moxes is you often play all 5 in T1 regardless of whether you are in color or not. This land is a corner case non-mana producing land that is a VERY powerful strategy for decks that lose to 1/3 of rock/paper/scissors (i.e. combo) and fits in only a few decks.
My problem isn't with paying money for cards. I mean I've shelled out a TON of money over the years. My problem is speculation artificially inflating the value of cards and then people not being able to play the game any more. Even if a dual land was $50 today BUT it creeped up a couple of dollars a year I would be cool with that. However, it was like Taiga=$25 on ebay from 2006/7 through even most of 2009 and then boom the price everywhere jumps and almost doubles! If Taiga is $50 by 2015 or something I'm cool with that (I'm sure packs will be like $4-5 or something by then), but this is too much too fast to ask players who don't have everything to put in.
I think I have a reasonable way to make reprints by making more judge and player promos (not just the ones for playing in x sanctioned games). I believe there needs to be a balance between reprinting Legacy cards in core set numbers and not reprinting them at all.
Think about it, what if at every GP or PTQ you received 1 randomly sorted foil dual land . How about for high level events the top 8 gets a foil special card? Now if you the player want to sell this card back to the dealers at whatever price it's their decision.
My issue isn't with dealers per say but with the fact that if wizards goes to distribute these cards through dealers then guess what? You have an MSRP of $x and a street value of $5x (FTVE) or $10x (if somethings that were in very high demand were reprinted).
IMO even removing the reserve list or removing just an expensive card every once in a while is enough to make most speculators shit bricks. Obviously, I wouldn't want to see a black lotus that I spent $500 reprinted in 2012 as a mythic rare but I only have 1 because I'm a player. I'll probably keep my 1, but how many guys that keep 5 or 10 lotuses in binders are gong to sit on them if they know it will go down to a $100 card? I believe the mere threat of a reprint is enough to push more cards into the market and drive the prices down a bit.
The bottom line, there should be a balance between creating accessability, punishing speculators (sorry guys this is a game and your profiteering is hurting the game), and maintaining value OTHERWISE we can just sell/burn all our cards and play with 60 card proxy decks on blank sheets of paper (Then everyone can go fuck themselves, we'll all have as many lotuses as we want!)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
I believe the mere threat of a reprint is enough to push more cards into the market and drive the prices down a bit.
Second that. Some talking about abolishing the Reseved List and people start to sell their excess cards. Exactly what we needed. If enough speculators make that decision maybe there is no need to actually reprint something since more duals enter the market. I doubt it that this will be enough but it is definately a good first step.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I like this. People selling stuff off at the threat of it possibly losing value.
I'm gonna go watch Chicken Little now...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jazzykat
The bottom line, there should be a balance between creating accessability, punishing speculators (sorry guys this is a game and your profiteering is hurting the game), and maintaining value OTHERWISE we can just sell/burn all our cards and play with 60 card proxy decks on blank sheets of paper (Then everyone can go fuck themselves, we'll all have as many lotuses as we want!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by paK0
Second that. Some talking about abolishing the Reseved List and people start to sell their excess cards. Exactly what we needed. If enough speculators make that decision maybe there is no need to actually reprint something since more duals enter the market. I doubt it that this will be enough but it is definately a good first step.
Just out of curiosity, what deluded percentage of the market do you guys imagine speculators make up? At first I figured the whining was targeted at speculators just because of the "I'm unhappy and it's someone's fault" mentality, but it sounds like you guys have the impression that speculators make up some major or even slightly significant portion of the market and have the ability to markedly affect it with their purchases. The kind of traffic (traffic, not single purchases) it would take to move the price of an easy-to-find card (Tarmogoyf) $30 is more or less impossible for a population the size of the people who would consider themselves "speculators" and are buying only for the sake of resale.
Though I wouldn't consider myself a speculator for most cards I own, I'm still unloading like crazy- I've sold off about 75% of my duals and legacy staples, as will speculators, who as you say, will shit bricks at the threat of reprints. There are more duals and forces available on ebay than I've seen in months and yet, prices continue to climb. Maybe, just maybe it's not the speculators but the players (the vast, vast majority) themselves who are digging their own graves?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IsThisACatInAHat?
Just out of curiosity, what deluded percentage of the market do you guys imagine speculators make up?
------------------------
There are more duals and forces available on ebay than I've seen in months
It seems they make up enough to create a reasonable impact.
Prices tend to go up a lot faster then they go down and since the GP will be in a few days, its only reasonable that noone will lower their prices.
After that we can see weater it will change or not. As I said, the "threat" alone might not be enough to bring the prices down again but it should have some effect. (Hopefully a positive one)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Sure, I may sell off 20-30 of my duals, because I'm starting to get paranoid. Big victory. How many people have to do the same before prices actually go down? Answer: There aren't enough people. I don't believe there's nearly so many duals tied up by hoarders and speculators as some of you imagine. No, the only thing that's going to drive down the prices is a reprint, which I'm beginning to think has a decent chance of happening.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I think I'm in the minority, but I certainly did not get into Magic due to financial reasons. Sure, I like mint/near mint condition cards, but I'm definitely a player first, collector... never. If I have to pay xxxx dollars in order to play the decks I do (Canadian Thresh, etc) then so be it. If my $1,000 deck is "worth" $100 next week, I don't care as long as it's still competitive. I suppose because I also play Standard, buying "money" cards one month, only to see them worth 1/10 of what I paid for them the next month doesn't really phase me; Magic =/= sound financial investment.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Even if people begin to release their cards into the market due to fear of reprints, that will only be a very small portion of the population(MTG Population), ~15%. The other duals will still be locked in a vault, collecting dust.
If Wizards plans on using the Reserved list and reprints to force speculators to release their cards for sale, they need to choose a card that is actually necessary(not some shitty Negator), and then reprint it, in a promo, deck, whatever.
And then if that still doesnt work, they definitely need to send out even a small amount of reprinted duals, ect, thus FORCING the speculators to lose money, or to resell.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
I think I'm in the minority, but I certainly did not get into Magic due to financial reasons.
No, you're in the vast majority, which includes me.
And you might not mind your $1000 deck becoming worth $100, until a year or two down the road, when you need to fix your car, go to college, or whatever. Or maybe you've just decided to quit Magic, and gee wouldn't it be nice if all those COLLECTIBLE trading cards that you spent all that money on were actually worth something now?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Regarding the question of a how much even a single speculator can affect the market. Refer to the success dahcmai reported on with Sea Drakes. With regards to loyal retainers look on these boards and see how many people bought more than 1 when they had the chance. I will also refer to real life. Some people BELIEVE that MTG is an investment they can play with. This is a self fulfilling prophecy. People say to themselves I should buy x because I can always sell it for more later.
Regarding eBay speculation. I believe it is very easy to use a bid sniping program to bid a minimum on a card such that the card is always sold to someone else at or above that price effectively pushing a price to at least that threshhold.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Volt
No, you're in the vast majority, which includes me.
And you might not mind your $1000 deck becoming worth $100, until a year or two down the road, when you need to fix your car, go to college, or whatever. Or maybe you've just decided to quit Magic, and gee wouldn't it be nice if all those COLLECTIBLE trading cards that you spent all that money on were actually worth something now?
I suppose I've never viewed Magic cards as investments like you have. As such, I don't care if my cards are worth only their weight in ink and cardboard nor do I care if I'm able to recoup any of the money I've used to buy my cards.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Well, I have several sets of beta, one set of Alpha, one set of Arabian, and obviously a ton of the newer ones if you've ever looked at my Ebay stuff. Do I keep that stuff for nostalgia? Not at all, I kept it because I was a collector and a player. I figured it was fairly safe holding on to those cards knowing they weren't going to reprint them and I could sit on them as long as I liked not worrying about a major drop. Beta and Alpha cards hardly ever see a drop. I started as one of the collectors who played casually.
Now that it's "official" they plan to release some of these again in duel decks and not only Judge promos, that's worrysome for this large horde sitting around. Of course I would sell it. I would rather have a safe investment than one I can't trust. All these cards will turn into real estate. I doubt I'll make a real dent in the card population. I doubt 5 Lotuses will even be noticed by the Magic community, but my bank will notice. If they decide to reprint a card from the old days I might as well buy the new one instead of holding on to older ones. No point in it and in fact there's all the reason to sell out.
To me the "collectable" part of the game is now dead.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Well, I have several sets of beta, one set of Alpha, one set of Arabian, and obviously a ton of the newer ones if you've ever looked at my Ebay stuff. Do I keep that stuff for nostalgia? Not at all, I kept it because I was a collector and a player. I figured it was fairly safe holding on to those cards knowing they weren't going to reprint them and I could sit on them as long as I liked not worrying about a major drop. Beta and Alpha cards hardly ever see a drop. I started as one of the collectors who played casually.
Now that it's "official" they plan to release some of these again in duel decks and not only Judge promos, that's worrysome for this large horde sitting around. Of course I would sell it. I would rather have a safe investment than one I can't trust. All these cards will turn into real estate. I doubt I'll make a real dent in the card population. I doubt 5 Lotuses will even be noticed by the Magic community, but my bank will notice. If they decide to reprint a card from the old days I might as well buy the new one instead of holding on to older ones. No point in it and in fact there's all the reason to sell out.
To me the "collectable" part of the game is now dead. I guess no one really cares about collectors anyway.
But cards like Wrath of God kind of discredit that view, don't they? Wrath has been reprinted numerous times but Alpha and Beta versions are still worth a good sum. Reprinting doesn't always = a decline in value.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Well, I have several sets of beta, one set of Alpha, one set of Arabian, and obviously a ton of the newer ones if you've ever looked at my Ebay stuff. Do I keep that stuff for nostalgia? Not at all, I kept it because I was a collector and a player. I figured it was fairly safe holding on to those cards knowing they weren't going to reprint them and I could sit on them as long as I liked not worrying about a major drop. Beta and Alpha cards hardly ever see a drop. I started as one of the collectors who played casually.
Now that it's "official" they plan to release some of these again in duel decks and not only Judge promos, that's worrysome for this large horde sitting around. Of course I would sell it. I would rather have a safe investment than one I can't trust. All these cards will turn into real estate. I doubt I'll make a real dent in the card population. I doubt 5 Lotuses will even be noticed by the Magic community, but my bank will notice. If they decide to reprint a card from the old days I might as well buy the new one instead of holding on to older ones. No point in it and in fact there's all the reason to sell out.
To me the "collectable" part of the game is now dead.
That sounds a lot more like speculating than collecting to me =).
I guess a collector would hold onto them, since they usually don't care weather their stuff is wort a million or nothing. They collect for the sake of collecting, not for the value of their stuff.
--------------------------
And I'm cool with my cards havin no more value if I quit in a few years. Magic is a hobby to me, if I would spend my time at the movies instead the money would be gone as well.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I see all those hardcore collectors on Alexis' site, and see what they pay for mint stuff that's not even on the reserve list... Honestly, I don't think they would give a shit. I'm talking about the guys that have sets of summer and stuff like that.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
But cards like Wrath of God kind of discredit that view, don't they? Wrath has been reprinted numerous times but Alpha and Beta versions are still worth a good sum. Reprinting doesn't always = a decline in value.
Well, you know that alpha WoG does not cost that much as it would cost, wouldn't it be reprinted in every basic set since alpha?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
=Aleksandr;430364]Well, you know that alpha WoG does not cost that much as it would cost, wouldn't it be reprinted in every basic set since alpha?[/QUOTE]
Considering it's not really Vintage or Legacy playable, I don't think it would be too sought after. Being Standard legal for so many years makes it a nostalgic card for most people, not just an old curious oddity out of the grasp of the majority of players. Anyway, we can't be sure since that's a speculative only answer.
But, working with what we do know, it was printed in nearly every core set, Portal, and a promo. But the value, in light of those millions and millions of copies, still was decent for A/B. The value on A/B Wrath, in other words, never tanked no matter how many reprints.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
Well, you know that alpha WoG does not cost that much as it would cost, wouldn't it be reprinted in every basic set since alpha?
Considering it's not really Vintage or Legacy playable, I don't think it would be too sought after. Being Standard legal for so many years makes it a nostalgic card for most people, not just an old curious oddity out of the grasp of the majority of players. Anyway, we can't be sure since that's a speculative only answer.
But, working with what we do know, it was printed in nearly every core set, Portal, and a promo. But the value, in light of those millions and millions of copies, still was decent for A/B. The value on A/B Wrath, in other words, never tanked no matter how many reprints.
I don't think you can deny that the value would be higher had it not been reprinted in countless sets.
That said, your comparison is between black bordered and white bordered. As we all know, players love black bordered cards and that is why alpha and beta versions of the card have retained value. For the purposes of reprinting legacy staples; included in staples are dual lands. The vast majority of players own white bordered revised duals or unlimted duals. So if Wizards are to reprint these in black bordered form (promo, dual deck, new set etc...) it will have a much greater impact than your wrath of god comparison.
By the sounds of it, Wizards is looking at reprinting the reserve list in premium products (i.e. black bordered and foil) which in my opinion is the worst approach they can take. It is going to definitely devalue white bordered dual lands if reprinted, but probably not greatly impact original bb duals. It's for this reason I think white bordered with new border reprints is the way forward.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nizmox
By the sounds of it, Wizards is looking at reprinting the reserve list in premium products (i.e. black bordered and foil) which in my opinion is the worst approach they can take. It is going to definitely devalue white bordered dual lands if reprinted, but probably not greatly impact original bb duals. It's for this reason I think white bordered with new border reprints is the way forward.
I don't agree with this. I think that people will still value the harder to find white bordered (and FBB/BB) old ones more. Sure, they may not be all black bordered and sexy, but because they are older, they should still hold the higher value. They will probably also end up being more scarce than the reprinted black bordered ones. I think that their price will take a hit, but I don't think that the theoretical new ones would end up being of a higher value just because they are foil. I honestly believe that the old ones eventually could rise amazingly for one reason. White bordered versions of cards are the new black border. They're more rare anymore (not counting beta/fbb). Think about it, what was the last white bordered set?
