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What makes me laugh is that you yell against S&T, but then you run it in your SB as by the list you posted!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
Anyways I agree, I'm new to this deck and want to try it because it seems good fun and I prefer the UG version, but WITHOUT S&T. This card makes the deck look horrible! Blue should be for Brainstorm, Repeal, Trinket Mage, not a card that makes the deck dumb and ugly.
Why have you passed from 4 Expedition Map to just 1?
Thanks!
Because I like dumb and ugly if it wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
I was expecting an answer like this one from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Just wanted to know if the deck can be competitive even without S&T...
Anyways I still haven't tested the deck and I will try it tonight.
I really don't know why you would expect anything other than an illogical answer when you are not using logic in your own analysis. Both you and MeddlingMageBR attack Show & Tell as being "ugly" and "dumb" when it has been proven to be extremly strong and effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by pippo84
And yet you then ask about other aspects of the deck based off their viability and utility. I don't make patchwork decks. Every card is contingent on the other 74. It is a common misconception of players who are not adept at deckbuilding that you can simply add/subtract in one variable/card and linearly improve/decrease the matchups/weaknesses. Decks are symbiotic constructs. If you alter even the smallest part it affects the organism as a whole.
Thus, sneering at one aspect, especially having never tested the deck or performed well with it, insults the entire design and the efforts put into it.
Show & Tell really isn't very good in 12-Post anyway. To make it work, you need to play a lot of fatties to make sure you have one in hand alongside S&T. I think one of Post's biggest advantages is that you get away with playing just a couple of creatures and tutor them up when you're ready (I run 4 - 2x Kozilek, 1x Ulamog, 1x Emrakul). This leaves a lot more space for acceleration, defense, and answers.
Besides, this is an archetype that can hardcast an Eldrazi almost as fast as S&T anyway. I regularly cast Kozilek on turn 3 and Emrakul on turn 4. Why spend a card to cheat them into play and miss the casting trigger? (Unless, of course, you're doing it off an opponent's S&T..)
i think you guys are missing the point. rock lee has been putting up results with his lists. why not just try it out. show and tell on a primeval titan when your opponent is trying to just keep using wasteland and discard to keep you honest seems really unfair and that's what the deck needs to do to keep up with some of these other decks in the meta.
i'm not saying you need show and tell to accomplish these things, but wouldn't it be nice to just come out of nowhere and win the game even when the first degenerate strategy gets there a lot of the time anyway?
Hi Rock Lee,
My friend wants to rebuild his Modern pre-banning 12-post to Legacy. He doesn't have Show and Tells, Tropical Islands and Candelabras. He wondering if Magus of the Candelabra (along with Green Sun's Zenith) and Summoning Trap could make an acceptable alternatives.
We both understand that it will slow the deck by a turn, so he suggested Root Maze since most of the decks lands already come into play tapped. This way, you are also hurting your opponent. Would Amulet of Vigor work here as well?
Thanks. And congratulations with your top8.
As I said before, Show and Tell is a great card, but does not belong in this deck. I say again "If you win by Show and Tell and you feel that your deck rocks, stop feeling that. Its an illusion. Its not the deck, its just the card (S&T) that is so powerful".Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Do you want your 12post, win with Show and Tell ? THIS is dump.
And some copy/paste again :
There are at least 4 Archetypes that "try to win the game by putting a fatty into play".
Hypergenesis
Sneak and Show
Elfrakul
Reanimator
Stiflenought
There are already all these decks that do the same thing (probably better), and 3 of them win with Emrakul. So, why all you "squeeze your brains" to built something that has already been built ? As you say "The point here is that winning games is the only thing we should try to do".
I give the answer : Because you want to create something DIFFERENT. And the difference is not S&T.
Whether you Show and Tell or not, this deck also wins by putting a fatty into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeddlingMageGR
Two more things,
One: You can try and do something DIFFERENT if you want. Build it your own way. Other people want to win. If they want to use Show and Tell to further that plan, they can. You don't need to mess with their success.
Two: This deck actually does do something DIFFERENT than the other Show and Tell decks, namely that it's not reliant on Show and Tell. This deck has a backup plan. You can't actually lose to control decks. And aggro decks can't keep up with Glimmerposts.
There are four ways to go about using the cloudpost mana base without Trops, Candelabras and Show & Tells. They are just different decks than this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Juan Miguel Carrascosa has done well with his rock-type cloudpost build. It is super econo minus the Tabernacle and is a blast to play.
Jorge Rubalcaba ran a Drop of Honey Summoning trap build, which I've found to be a little lacking, but still is entertainingly fun.
Eugenio Wodl's MUD build with Loci is hilarious and brave, but obviously not a control deck like I have here.
Chris Rowland did well with his heavy GSZ based build as well.
Amulet of Vigor is a reasonable budget option. I used to use them before I got all my Candelabras. Since multiple Amulet triggers stack, you can get some ramp out of them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Magus probably isn't good enough for Legacy. It's fragile and has summoning sickness. It might be ok in a heavy GSZ build.
I don't think Root Maze is where you want to go. Sure, you might slow them down a bit, but it doesn't answer anything. Post isn't a tempo deck; it's an inevitability deck. Slowing them down a turn isn't going to save you most of the time. You're better off with some real defensive cards, like Maze of Ith, or cards that advance your board position.
Don't forget about Crop Rotation, which is one of the biggest things Legacy Post gains over Modern Post. A playset costs less than $5, but it's hard to overstate the power of instant-speed land tutoring that puts the land directly into play. It's also a great way to respond to Wasteland.
Hey TheBoozeCube,
Would you like to share your list before you got your Candelabras?
Thanks in advance.
I'll have to dig through some files on my computer to find one.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Hello folks!
I have just got some games today with the deck in a small tournament (4 swiis + top4).
I sleeved the list that Rock Lee used for his Top4 at Jupiter recently minus 1 Candelabra (I only have one) that I replaced with a Trinket Mage.
This is a quick report:
Match 1 - Goblin (Monored)
G1 - The deck craps on me and I'm short on mana but manage to land a Glacial Chasm before dying. He kills my 2 Show&Telled Titans that I used to gain life and sustain Chasm but I don't find action and die.
G2 - Side in 3 Elephant Grass and Tabernacle and take out 2 Expedition Map, 1 bojuka Bog and 1 Show&Tell. No mana, no mana, no mana. Mulligan at 6, I keep with a 2-lander but I don't manage to see more lands and I die in few turns.
0:W 1:L
Match 2 - Enchantress (GW)
G1 - I can't loose this match and I win on titan for Eye of Ugin and Cloudpost. The following turn I grasp Emrakul and play it for the win.
G2 - Side in 4 Flusterstorm and 2 Spellpierce, side out 3 Pithing Needle, 1 Bojuka Bog and 2 Expedition Map. He tries to play Blood Moon when I'm 1 turn short from playing the winning Emrakul. I had had Titan fetch the basic Island, proceed to repeal the Moon...gg
1:W 1:L
Match 3 - UW Miracles
G1 - As Rock Lee says I can't loose this match. He has 1 Plains and 1 Island on the field when I S&T Emrakul and win from there.
G2 - Side out 3 Expedition Map, 1 Bojuka Bog and 1 S&T, side in 2 Venser, 2 Trinisphere and 1 Tabernacle (in case on Angels, probably not effective btw). He counters in order Titan, Titan, Ulamog. Then Terminus on casted Emrakul but I fetch it again with Eye of Ugin and he can't do anything about
2:W 1:L
Match 3 - Goblin (Monored....again)
G1 - He is fast as hell and I can't put up a defence.
G2 - Same sideboarding as before and he can't match an elephant grass plus Tabernacle
G3 - I keep an hand with 2 Cloudpost, Tropical Island, 2 Elephant Grass, S&T, Brainstorm. I want to play the tropical to do brainstorm end of turn thinking that he would save a wasteland for the "critical" lands...stupid reasoning he goes Mountain, pass. I play trop, pass. He...wasteland on trop, I brainstorm in response and fail to see another coloured source...gg for him
2:W 2:L
Even if I didn't make Top4 I liked the deck a lot, it was the first time I played it and it took a bit to get in tune with it...I lost to two decks that I didn't expect and won the expected games, I will definitely play it again.
With the suggested sideboard of 2 drop of honey instead of the two trinisphere the aggro matchup should become way easier, I'll try to get a pair for the next tournament.
Thanks Rock Lee for the well put together list, the deck is a real blast to play.
Glad to hear it treated you well! As a suggestion against gobbos, dont' be afraid to tutor up ugin and cloudposts with no chance of paying for next turn's chasm if it will get you the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raystar
Lots to talk about for suggestions, but generally goblins isn't a hard matchup if you run elephant grass and tabernacle.
My current build only has 1 candelabra anyhow, went upto 4 repeal and love it.
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Island (3a)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (3)
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 3 [MI] Cursed Totem
Good catch with the Cursed Totems in the side.
I lost to Goblin because of inexperience with the deck and a bit of bad luck (plus the second goblin player topdecking like a champ :) ), I attribute those losses more to variance than the deck.
I'll try the Totems and let you know, I'm still getting acquainted to the deck and haven't started yet customizing it. I also liked the Drop of Honey tech to be honest but I guess that the Totems hose maverick a lot more.
I'm actually thinking of cutting all of the candles--they don't really seem to do that much for me. Albeit I haven't played much versus maverick/rug, but by the times candle accelerate me to the 15 mana, i wouldve gotten it 1 turn later anyways. I understand that the 1 turn can be the difference, but from my playing it just seems like candles aren't necessary. I honestly think I'm happier seeing a map than a candle most of the time. Thoughts?
Honestly, Maverick isn't a bad matchup if you play it well. The totems are there mostly for Elves. I hate. hate HATE losing to elves. its a pet peeve. and doesn't help that I lost my last two events to Elves. Rug and U/W Miracles SHOULD be knocking them back to the stone age, but you still have to play against them in big events.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raystar
Drop of honey hits both maverick and elves, so go Drop of Honey if you like it. The benefit is a slightly heightened vulnerability to Chalice @ 1 versus consistency against the decks where you'll be seeing chalice at 1, either you playing it or them.
I have played a build with x4 map and x0 candelabras and I found the situation of just needing to address a board state, either by playing more lands or using spells while having tons of maps, to happen too frequently. Candelabra does this well. The lowest I've done well with at a tournament was 1, and every time I've gone under 1 I have deeply regretted it. Also cards like Choke, B2B and Rishadan Port do exist, and it is your best out to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
If you are highly insistent on playing zero candelabras, either through a budget or a general dislike of the card, I would suggest an alternate accelerant in Exploration or explore.
::EDIT::
I have a new list I'll post after my event today with some great adaptions. But I'll wait until the event I'm going to is over, since apparently the more competitive folks at my local shop actually check this thread the morning of each event to get my list! Talk about flattery! or maybe fear. Hopefully both! <3
::EDIT2:
Welp got pressured to help a landlord move out of their place instead of go to my Sunday event. So here's the latest list with the most comprehensive and adaptive sideboard. Keep in mind, this doesn't mean it is the perfect sideboard. It just has the most possible applications.
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Island (3a)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [ZEN] Forest (3)
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [M10] Pithing Needle
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 2 [MI] Cursed Totem
SB: 2 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
II don't know how your build looks, but I run a full playset of Candelabras and can't fathom cutting one. They let you get by with fewer posts in play, they let you untap Eye to tutor for multiple Eldrazi or get a reshuffle for Top, and they untap Maze of Ith to nerf more attackers (especially with multiple Mazes). I'm very rarely disappointed to see one.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
They also do a spectacular job of accelerating you to 10-11 mana for Kozilek or Ulamog. 90% of the times that I cast one of them on turn 3 involve a Candelabra, since you can do it off of 2 Cloudposts and a Glimmerpost.
I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I would strongly urge you to read the pages of this thread, as they discuss the pro's and con's of candelabras at all stages of the game and an overall evaluation of this card far more than your brief summary. Including multiple testimonials from several people all of who have placed well with non-4 numbers of Candelabras. Infact it has been several years since I have run 4 candelabras in Eldrazi and the deck has net'd me over 4,000$ in that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
My reasoning for this isn't budget--I already have 3 candles. I just haven't been super impressed w/ them. Maybe If i go to 3, I'll see the often enough to matter (I'm currently running 2 w/ 2-3 maps).
Perhaps someone can point me to an earlier post discussing this, but with Top, Map, Needle, and Candelabra all being staples in the deck, do Trinket Mages really not deserve to be in it? I mean, that's a ridiculous number of targets.
It is less that he doesn't deserve a spot and more that I prefer the early redundancy instead of relying on having stable mana my first 3 turns. The more I played the deck the more I realized that if you can achieve a stable board state by turn 3 then the game is greatly in your favor. So therefore keeping hands on Trinket mage I was greatly hedging my bets on him stabilizing that board state for me. I found that just running redundant amounts of his targets, or appropriate ratios to them, gave me stronger keep hands and endangered me less board-state wise on those swing turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
If your meta doesn't have gads of rug, lots of wastes and quick clock decks like goblins, elves and combo, then Trinket mage is the better choice, since he'll let you solidify your games in the slower meta than I have. I simply need to respond to threats earlier.
Hey Everyone. Just wanted to say that I think this deck looks fun, entertaining, and unique. Therefore I built this on MTGO.
I have a stream on twitch TV http://www.twitch.tv/gobblor
I will be streaming Modern tonight with a little bit of Legacy (This Deck) and maybe some Pauper tonight around 9:00pm EST maybe earlier if I am able.
I am relatively new to streaming and only streamed once (153 viewers not a bad start). I figured I would throw this post in here in case any of you were interested in watching this deck being played as I know legacy can be hard to come by on MTGO. I will warn you however, I have only played in one game with the deck so I will be in the learning process so do not expect super good play right away or anything.
Thats all, See ya!
Nice! I hope you get lots of views. I had never thought about streaming playing the deck before, but from what I hear from folks about the lack of success with the deck it might be worth me to start streaming it as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by gobblor
Let me know how it goes, I'll stop by and see if I can give some opinions as you go if I'm back in time.
Ok, I think that's the issue. I run 4x Map, 4x Crop Rotation, 4x Ancient Stirrings. The more land tutors your deck runs, the more consistently your Candelabras will matter early.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Rock Lee:
I'm quite intrigued by your use of Cursed Totem. While probably not ideal for my local meta, it's definitely something I'm going to have to keep in mind for larger tournaments. What do you use it for besides Maverick?
Mostly Elves. Quite an abysmal matchup otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I already replied to this multiple times, but Griselbrand and Elves mostly. I don't even side it in against maverick 100% of the time. build depending. For example, the white-centric builds with aven mindcensors and SFM are wasted on cursed totem.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
I'm going to play the deck again on Saturday and I'll sleeve the last build with 4 Repeals but with the following SB:
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Flusterstorm
3 Spell Pierce
4 Elephant Grass
3 Cursed Totem
Last week I faced Goblins twice and I want to have a strong matchup against aggro post-side (there always is some maverick and merfolks presence).
Comments? Ideas? I'd love to hear your thoughts :)
Rock lee.
Oh how I live reading this thread. People are playing post because they think its good, then ask for advise because they don't know who to ask, so they ask the guy who places with it at random tournament and talks to them in a thread.
They argue about the list, is show good, no its bad do I need candel, how many maps should I run?. Idiots
Its show, play it vrs a fair deck, and they lose. That is what show does, I put out a win, u play a goyf. Hahaha
This not the list u kids need to get right, there are 10 different ways to play it. The reason its good is its not a net deck. So your opponent does not know your 75 like you know there's.
12 post takes a style of play, and skill.
Its not the list u need to get right, its tight play and sideboardimg right.
they deck sits perfect in the meta game right now, lands, elves, bug control, ago loam, storm are the hard match ups. Everything else should be a win.
That simple
More drunk texts from Daniel Hall.Quote:
Originally Posted by sublime love
But what he says is correct. The deck is strong because it has an incredibly high card-pool. The comments and suggestions I have given are towards the style of play I enjoy the most and have found the most success with, but they are by no means the have-all-end-all for the deck.
There are easily 15 different successful builds for this deck and the cardpool is phenomenally vast making the potential builds astronomically large.
Play what you want, no need to get upset. But I will always bias my opinions towards the build that I'm running at the moment.
That being said. Just won another weekly event in Windsor, CT. Huzzah. After expenses, I'm netting 100$ a week with Eldrazi and have been for over a year now. I love this deck so much! <3
Any thoughts on Cyclonic Rift potentially replacing Repeal? It seems fairly solid.
I saw Cyclonic Rift, and it was interesting. This is definitely the only deck that could overload it. However, I feel like Repeal is an especially unique removal spell since it is active at all stages of the game and cycles. It would require something strictly better than it to replace it imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by evanmartyr
As I've been part of the discussion here, I'm taking this as party adressed to me. I think the decklist discussion is valuable. Although it might be possible to make many lists, there are still cards that make certain matchups better and some worse. Without further knowledge, the assumed decks to beat and strategy needs to consentrate on the DTB-sections decks here. With that said, there is in fact a superior list that has the best win % aggainst most of the field. This is all meta-knowledge aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by sublime love
I see you're trying to make a point, and even made one. However, If I were the writer of that wall of text, I would hesitate to call anyone else an idiot.
Dan Hall isn't known for his diplomacy. Just check his tumblr where he lauds his misplays and Judge-banking error in his favor as stomping people and calls out his opponents with more skill as Punks. He's not the most benign personality'd of players, but he does play my deck to moderate success, so I give him credit for that. =DQuote:
Originally Posted by Xtreme
The purpose of my comment though, was I was just trying to address his points as valid. There are lots of builds, with lots of viability. I just strongly believe that whatever I'm running at the moment is poised best against the meta.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...4&d=1346731261
I'd like to mention this guy since its one of the more relevant cards to this archetype that was spoiled.
The advantage to playing this card is that you can GSZ for it in the GSZ focused builds.. but more so the fact that Karakas is an ever present part of the metagame. Everyone is siding it in and its much stronger against this deck than it is against Reanimator where they still get to draw 7-14 cards with Grizz or even SnT where Sneak Attack where the same thing happens. Also, KoTR can find maindeck Karakas as well if thats what they put into play off SnT when we play it in the SnT build.
Triple green is pretty steep and it also has to die rather than leave play for you to get the 5/5's.. but it does have the advantage of dodging the GGG in the hard cast when you just GSZ for it, and 12 mana is par with an Eldrazi. So my question is, should this guy work his way into GSZ builds as a 1'of or should the GSZ toolbox be more utility and Titan focused? I'm thinking this guy will probably just be win more; if you have the mana to GSZ you probably should have already GSZ'd for Titan and just win and if you get this guy instead of a Titan... then you don't get the advantage of finding 2 lands to secure their win if you run into a removal spell.
Also, on the topic of GSZ builds, I think that Terastodon deserves another look considering its versatility as either 18 power, blowing up troublesome permanents, or even locking your opponent out of the game by blowing up their lands and then playing Tabernacle.
I agree on Repeal > Cyclonic Rift. Even if you wanted to run a spell like Rift, I'd imagine Devastation Tide would be better than Rift quite often.
I can't think of a single situation where I'd want to GSZ for a worldspine wurm over primeval titan. like. ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I like the worm, and it peaked my interest in the first few spoiled cards, but I think its niche is belonging in a natural order deck that runs therapy.
Exactly what Rock Lee said. This is about never better than a Titan. Also, Karakas does almost nothing against this deck. The bounce an Emrakul and we simply re-cast it on the extra turn, or draw more cards, or blow something else up. In Show and Tell situations, Titan is pretty much always better against Karakas decks anyway.
I've never really played a GSZ-based build. But it seems to be a pretty rare situation where you would want to GSZ for 11 over just casting an Eldrazi - not to mention that hardcasting Worldspine Wurm requires GGG.
The only scenario I can think of is where (1) your opponent has removal, (2) he has lethal damage on board if you don't block, (3) his creatures don't have evasion, (4) you don't have any PrimeTimes in your library to get with GSZ, and (5) you have no Glimmerposts left in your library to get with PrimeTime. And even in this unlikely situation, All Is Dust would probably be better.