You have 5 Terminus in your 75. Is the one in your sideboard something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
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You have 5 Terminus in your 75. Is the one in your sideboard something else?Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Mana leak is way better than counterspell in a non-monoU deck. Especially in a format where everyone play less than 20 lands, including 4 wastelands. It is this debate of versability versus raw power.
I do not think that Mana Leak is an option in this kind of deck. Sure it's wayyy better during the first few turns but we are already aiming at getting UU by turn 2 so Counterspell shouldn't be much of a problem. In addition to this, Counterspell is still a counter in the late-game, which we are aiming at. So I'd never chose Leak over Spell.
@5 Terminus: Nah, 5 Terminus is fine, I guess it's just for the tough MUs where 4 aren't enough :cool::cool::cool::cool:
Greetings
There are too many plains/karakas/wastelands in the lists I see to comfortably rely on a turn two counterspell. And with the presnece of show and tell it seems a really bad choice not to be able to counter every game on turn two.
I agree with the fact that the deck wants to reach the late game, but you forget that in the late game the deck is so powerful that we'll win whatever happens. It's the early game that needs to be improved, and that's exactly why mana leak is better than CS.
Counterbalance, Delver, Clique and Jace are among the cards I fear most - Flusterstorm does not answer them, while REBs even kill them after resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
Straight UW with Fluster Storms is a valid choice and the R splash is a meta choice obviously, but for the time being I'm quite satisfied with it.
@ Terminus #5: The SB Terminus is my current flex slot. :smile: (fixed.)
Agreed. Negate has turned out to be a really good sb card just for those reasons. Snapcaster builds are much more manageable with Leak over Cspell when the decks are playing 21 or less lands with 2 plains, Karakas, 4 Mish/Waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchy-man
Opening hands can look ugly making Ponders vital in there, although not playing Wastes or Mishra and/or around 24 lands would also reduce those openers and draws.
At the moment, I probably wouldn't replace Counterspells with Mana Leak or Negate...as there's already Force of Will or/and Spell Pierce to handle the early threats.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by sarapfish
One cannot afford to lose to turn two show and tell with fow back up. It is very important to have the maximum amount of counters available in the early game.
And three more to pay is almost like a hard counter. I mean, we are in legacy.
I tried a mana leak instead of the 4th counterspell and it was awful. If you're fetching correctly and not trying to splash for cute tricks you'll never have a problem getting your colors. Mana leak is just not good, for the same reason spell pierces 3-4 are usually bad (but necessary to see them early). Competent opponents can easily play around soft counters, especially when they have time because we aren't the fastest kid on the block by any stretch. So they wait it out and you're stuck with force bait/shitty counters you wish just read "counter target spell".
Tell me how to play around mana leak please.
It's a 3 step process. Each involving playing a mana source.Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchy-man
Sure Aggro decks won't be able to play around it so well, but S&T can, Maverick can, Blade control can, pretty much everything can given enough time, I'm sure I don't need to point out that they will get that time against us. Especially when they know you run them, they lose novelty after game 1, and the game winning threats will be waiting.
The point is, mana leak is cmc 2. Counterspell is cmc 2. Why, just why would you ever want to run a conditional counter over a hard counter when they fill the exact same spot on your curve, in a deck that is primarily U?
(Again, I can see the argument if you're running splashes, but there's no excuse if you're running UW)
@frenchy-man: What does your manabase look like?
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknique
Also, if the situation is that the colorless sources really bother the consistency of the U/W build (by using Wasteland or Mishra's Factory) as per individual preference and experience, then I guess you should remove some (or all) of them and just put in more blue mana sources. I think either way the deck will work just fine.
I hesitated using Mishra's Factories at first for the same reason, so I guess it's a matter of just stretching out the stability of the manabase to its limit when we add colorless sources. I currently play with 4 factories in a 22-land count (similar to Hanni's)
Why? They give your opponent a use for their spot removal.. I enjoy just grinding the games out by landing CB-Top & Jace followed by an EtA in a controled game stateQuote:
Originally Posted by sarapfish
As already mentioned from pages back, it provides an alternative option to damage your opponent plus it can be a body to protect Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
A use for their spot removal? Well yes, but you don't just recklessly transform them to be blasted away. Wait until the coast is clear, like when they're tapped out, or when you got things under control with a CounterTop online.
But like I said, the deck works with or without them, so it's just a matter of preference.
Counterbalance + SDT eliminates about 95% of the removal in Legacy (STP, PTE, Lightning Bolt, Ghastly Demise, etc.)
One disadvantage of Mishra's Factory is that it opens you up to Wasteland. For those who run Mishra's Factory, are you also running Crucible of Worlds?
My favorite use for Mishra's is stopping early aggression. A single Mishra's can stop a Thalia, Goblin Guide, or Dark Confidant and double Mishra's can stop a threshed Mongoose, Wild Nacatl, or Hellspark Elemental (not that the later two are seeing much play).
Currently, I'm not running Mishra's Factory, but I'm considering it for its ability to "survive" a Terminus, offer early defense and protection, and its ability to be a 2/2 when Humility is in play.
I played this deck a tone and found that its biggest weakness was,if an opponent dropped a permanent on turn 1 or 2 that was not countered. To fix this problem I put 2 repeals in the main instead of the O rings.
Advantage :
- let you bounce at end of turn + draw
- you do not need to tap out on your turn like O ring
- rarely a dead draw in any match up
- good vs creature and permanent heavy decks
- is a good out vs opposing counterbalance ( make X= 3, 4 or more )
- you can buy back with snap - mot Oring
Disadvantage :
- weaker against Show and tell
what do you guys think of repeal?
What are some examples of non-creature problem permanents you're dealing with on turns 1 and 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
Personally, I don't like repeal because it doesn't actually solve any problems and can get quite expensive. But, I'm interested to hear more about your experiences with it.
I'm noticing a lot more straight UW lists are running only three Tundras. Why are people cutting the fourth Tundra?
Also, I don't have experience in the match up, but it seems like the consensus is Maverick is very favourable for this deck. Can't help but think Gaddock Teeg protected by Mom would be very difficult to deal with. What's the answer for this?
Karakas for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kl'rt
So you really think sneak.deck can play around mana leak to early resolve show and tell or sneak attack ?
What frightens is a turn two/three/four show and tell/sneak attack. On turn two counterspell is often uncastable in any list playing waste or basics plains or karakas or mishras.
My mana base : 23 lands
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
3 glacial fortress
5 island
2 plains
2 wastelands
I would play some karakas if my meta were composed of many sneak attack, which is not the case.
What is the point of running the 2 Wastelands?
You have to deal with cavern of souls vs maverick, and to destroys the sol lands of sneak.deck. Plus, sometimes it just wins games by itslef when the opponent is stuck on one land.
It is also very nice with crucible.
permanents that may have passed our counter spells on turn 1 and 2 :Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknique
-Vial ( even if you don't have a counter after you bounce it it a big tempo advantage for us )
-Thopter Foundry ( if this lands on turn 2 and you don't have a way to bounce or destroy it you just die )
-counterbalance
- jitte( in my meta I have a player that plays bant vial with Moorland Haunt ) or Batterskull is a problem
As for the Maverick match up :
in about 10 matches I have yet to lose a single one ( never let a Gaddock Teeg or a green sun for 2 resolve if they have a mother or a karakas in play )
as for the counter spell vs mana leak conversation :
My mana base is :
Lands [22]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
( No karakas - I find than a 1 of is too random to reliably find when needed and it can hurt vs waste land decks ):rolleyes:
and I play :
4 ponder
4 brainstorms
4 tops
In my build I rather have counter spell then mana leak ( I have no problem casting them on turn 2 )
O ring does what Repeal does, but it's a more permanent answer. This deck is about removal as much as it is about countering spells. Temporary solutions like Repeal are bad in this deck. We don't capitalize on tempo like aggro/control decks do. We need permanent answers.
Regarding Mom + Teeg, we can hit that combo with double removal, of which we have StP, O Ring, and Jace. Factory also holds the ground against Teeg if necessary. Postboard, Humility is another answer, and there is also Shackles for those with Shackles in their board. For lists with Karakas, that's also another out.
Regarding Mana Leak, I don't have issues hitting UU on turn two. I'd sooner cut Factory for more blue sources than run Mana Leak. I'd also run Spell Pierce over Mana Leak; if I'm going to run a situational, bad lategame counter, it should at least cost less mana than Counterspell.
We don't capitalize on tempo like aggro/control decks do. We need permanent answers.
I know that this deck dos not capitalize on tempo ... its a virtual time walk + draw a card against vial decks ...
as for teeg if he lands early backed up by mom or karakas : stp + jace is not an option or stp and humility ....
your only option is : Stp +stp or Stp snap
When I said Jace and Humility, I was referring to getting those down before Teeg comes into play.
Keeping Mom from sticking is usually a priority anyway, so countering or otherwise dealing with one piece of the combo usually isn't a problem. Teeg is usually a 1-of found off GSZ, so saving FoW and Counterspell for GSZ is a solid plan.
StP + O Ring double removal still deals with Mom + Teeg.
My point is, it isn't hard from preventing them from assembling that combo in the first place, but if they do, we not only have some reactive outs, we also have some proactive outs. If you're having major issues with it, you could always bring in Pithing Needle too, since there are tons of juicy targets for it.
I've really grown fond of that card over the years and consider it a potent MD addition for several reasons (i. e. in the Clique/Terminus#4 slot):Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
- It serves as a wincon
- serves as a control element
- enhances the CB curve (when replacing Terminus #4)
- we have more than enough Islands to support it (Fortress would have to be cut though)
- also, even as a 1of it's not random since you don't want to see it before the mid/late midgame.
I have a question, why the glacial fortress instead of hollowed fountain? The only thing I can think of is because of choke, but we are giving up the ability to search for them because of that? Also for the people looking into shackles( i will be cuz I love that card) are you taking out the fortresses for Fountain?
@3 Tundra: I run 3 Tundra to play around wasteland. Basics are way awesome.
@Gaddock Teeg: If you told me I could a deck where Teeg was the only issue a deck would give me... I would absolutely play that deck. Oh wait.
@Shackles: Is Shackles better than a 3rd Entreat? What are your thoughts on that [klaus/Hanni]??
I actually like Mystic Gate more than Glacial Fortress if people are looking for ways to avoid Choke and also get more colored mana options. If I open with Gate + Karakas, I don't actually feel too bad, whereas if that Gate was a Fortress, I'd have to auto-ship that back. Gate can at least let you cast Top on turn 1, while Fortress can't.
What about Nimbus Maze? It fixes your off color and taps for turn 1 Top.
You want to have UU online on turn 2. Nimbus Maze doesn't allow you to do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
Glacial fortress if against chock and hollowed fountain has the same problems as tundra vs ChokeQuote:
Originally Posted by blueneverfails
testing shows :
FAVORABLE Match Up
- burn
- Maverick
- combo decks that don't have show and tell in them
- aggro decks ( elf's or goblins )
50-50 Match ups:
- Canadian *****
- Thopters combo ( comes down to who lands a counterbalance the 1st ) ( If Thopter resolves you're just dead )
Bad Match up:
-show and tell game 1 is a horribly match up ( you have more of a chance in game 2 and 3, I bring in -4 pierce -2 cliques and take all my White cards and become a mono blue control deck )
- Vial decks is you worst match up
With the shift away from Maverick, does Choke still pose a threat enough to run stuff like Fortress?
even is choke is not played that much anymore it's still good mana fixingQuote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
but if we don't worry about choke, then Hollowed fountain is much better mana fixing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaslan
plus its better if you like shackles.
Right now, I feel no need for additional fixing like Hallowed Fountain. Going down to just 3, maybe just 2 Tundra seems pretty good.
Having to play a Tundra on the first turns against an unknown opponent is the worrrrssttttt!!!
Hallowed Fountain is awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by blueneverfails
Most all lists are not even running 4 Tundras because (as noted) basics are so good, and the main thing you want (you only ever need W+fetch all game in case Entreat hits - you almost never even need to fetch Tundra in matches with Wasteland). The only reason the other "dual" lands are even being discussed is because they're not Islands, and so avoid Choke .
A normal manabase has 22 lands and something like 18-20 make Blue, 14-16 make White. There is no real need for mana fixing.