[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by kasparovski

Thing is, is there anything interesting to be discussed on the tcdecks stable proven list?

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Imo the decklists without Guide. I dislike the card myself in the more controlish build because your opponents can drain insane card advantage out of the Guides while you will be most likely not able to kill them before they can use the cards which overall results in you getting outclassed because of the advantage you grant your opponent. In the faster burn heavy build the Guide is so good because even if they draw additional cards they will most likely not be able to use them properly.

I think neither Devil and Clique are able to replace the Guides properly so ... I don't know ...

I see, maybe play with 10-11 creatures and 31-32 instants/sorceries? Not like there isn't burn or control cards to be added there, Delver would appreciate it and in a more control version you don't need those hasty creatures as much. Having Devil ends up doing that since he will for the most part be a Lava spike for 4, just won't count for Delver and sometimes be good for nothing.

On another note when i played with the more red version with both guide and vexing i realized it sucks a bit if we get to many of them since those cards are mostly good at the beginning and we will only be able to play one of them optimally.

I think the threads name should actually be UR Tempo, since that's what this deck does: creating tempo. We do this by playing creatures that are very powerful for their cc1 and we do the damage as fast as a burn list.
Therefore I believe vexing devil should be in here, 'cause as said before in order to win a game you can't rely on your burn, but need to have a creature one-drop to push enough damage through. But since this is a tempo deck you don't want to see most of the cards you have in there from round 4 and on anyways, but on the same spot you don't want the cards inportant from round 4 and on in your opening hand.
So similar to a sligh list you want to have a certain amount of finishers for what you're able to draw into round 4 or 5 or bs/ponder for. I think a good number would be around 4-6, while the options I'm talking about are fireblast, thunderous wrath and even sulfuric vortex.
For reasons stated before I would drop PoP cause it just doesn't do enough damage in a red heavy meta. And this is the point where I need to come to talk about counters. First of all PoP would be one of the few cards affected by counters (Spell Snare). But why should we drop playing counters? I mean if my opponent needs to get rid of delver right away by swording it or playing punishing fire why not dazing/spell piercing??? If that card was a lava spike or other burn spell I would do 3 more damage right, but if my delver survives that's 3 damage, too, with the option of more, or my opponent needs to spend another card on him, while I might play another creature he's to handle. I can see the issues about fow and the blue card count, but with bs/ponder/delver/daze/fow/spell whatever you still have lots of blue cards left.
Let's take it from another point of few. I think most of you would agree with me, that this deck can beat control lists with its tempo and even in mid game, with a resolved finisher, as th.wrath, fireblast or at best sulfuric vortec. We seem to struggle with creature loaded decks, like maverick, affinity and zoo, but now we got creatures as big and as ceap as zoo (delver/devil) to stble the boards and still we play the burn over it, so we should make this as well. The only problem I see in the lately posted burn heavy lists is, what do you guys do vs. a 2nd turn infernal tutor, a Show and Tell, a grindstone, a goblin charbelcher. All kinds of combo MU seem pretty worse to me without daze and spell spierce, leaving fow out 'cause of the stated above reasons. Sure it's not a great topdeck with no cards in hand, but what would be? A vexing devil, a delver, that need's to flip? i think at a point where you're topdecking you're in a poor position anyways unless you have 3 creatures out and a vortex. And before all of that, with cards in hand we have bs and ponder to see what we're gonna draw. Other than that I usually like my opening 7 when I keep them and if my first topdeck is a spell pierce, I'm glad to be able to protect my one-drop creature.
I do see the intention of a burn heavy list and it might work out fine with risky bet, but in order to be a stable deck and handle everything you might meet at a tournament you should be prepared for combo and for sure you might be able to race them somethimes, but for the other times I'd make sure they don't win vs. a goldfish.

The "U/R Delverburn" lists just got first AND second at the SCGopen in Birmingham. Maybe that's something to show how competetive this deck is? Total amount of counters = 7 (including Daze, FoW and Spell Pierce).
Here's the link: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...irmingham.html

The lists are pretty close to what I was testing in the end. Even though I really dislike the Guides because your opponents can turn Brainstorms into Ancestrals I guess they are essential not substitutable. I got to agree with Kich that this deck pretends to be something it can hardly be - a good midrange deck. Taxation counters get worse with every turn passing by (in contrast to Canadian with the heavy mana denial) which is pretty bad with the really slowish hands you get from time to time. On the upside the Manabase and especially Lavamancer and Delver are amazing in this deck.

Yet it seems to work ... Maybe I will take my list and go on instead of searching for another generally more harmonic deck. If anyone got some input I would really appreciate it.

// Lands
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Mountain (3)
2 [R] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning (should be 4 I guess)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [VI] Fireblast (-> Thunderous Wrath)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

Generally you'd cut a daze for your fourth chain. If you peek their lists, 1-2 dazes is all you ever want. I used to run 4, but brainstorming into dazes made me want to kill myself, so I dropped to three, then I dropped to two, which is ideal.

Daze needs to be surprising, either that or they need to play around it. Everyone will play around daze against this deck though, because psychologically the times spells get dazed has more of an impact than spells that don't. The thought "thank god that didn't get dazed" carries a lot less weight than "Shit, I just walked into a daze, why am I so bad at this game?".

So really, it's not something you want to see more than probably one of. Extra's are perfect pitch to force candidates but, it still feels really terrible when you brainstorm hoping to find burn and see "Fetch daze fetch". Or brainstorm hoping to find a force and see a daze etc.

Daze carries more weight by simply being included in the deck, and seeing a ton of them is usually bad. It feels real shitty double-dazing something haha.

@oRen: I think your list looks fine. You might take a Daze and a Force or something else out and play PoP or what I like even more: Sulfuric Vortex. I agree with everyone here, that PoP is not a top card right now, when everybody play around it. But that's exactly the reason why we should at least have it in our 75!

My thoughts were that people are expecting it being played. Therefore they play around it, therefore I put it in SB and just board it when People can't play around, like Maverick or BUG/Team America and other 3 colored decks. Fair enough?

Maybe you think of trading one of these islands for another basic mountain? With 3 Fireblast you're not even able to cast all of them (3 VI + 2 Mountain).

hi guys,
i usually play sligh uwr , but at now, i want back at ur delver, for have less dual to play, beacsue too much non basic land, and not very strong mana base

but i van t decide me, if is better play some few counters(and really i hate daze, so i m sure 3x pierce and 3x will) or blu only for cantrip, and delver

about avacyn i see many nice ur cards, but what cards are better n this deck? and instead of what?

Use capitalization and punctuation when posting here, please. Thanks. -zilla

I was fine with that land split until now while I rarely even played 2 Fireblast. Maybe you are right right now but with AVR getting legal soon this manabase seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Regarding PoP - the only really flexible slots I think I have are the 2 Pillars which I really like because they give me an edge especially versus High Tide (and obviously other combo decks). I do not know if the Combo matchup is already fair enough to play something beating multicolored aggro control and control. Also I have seen Maverik lists with up to 4 Basics and people can generally still waste themselves or "fail" to find lands with their open fetchlands. To me this is one of the cards which is generally better versus bad players ... good players playing around it even if it is not there is also nice.

@Kich - I nearly always want to have Daze on my opening hand to daze library manipulating stuff like Brainstorm or Top for reducing the Guides' drawback. Maybe I will just go ahead and play 61 cards instead of cutting anything.

PoP went to my sideboard a while ago, it is good; but not that reliable in my area as too many are fetching a basic first, waste their own duals, etc.

I like 3 Daze personally and 2 Fireblast; but I also run Spell Snare instead of pierce. 3 Grim Lavamancers are enough for me.

Your list is fine though, just tweek as you see what is working best in your area.

With Vexing Devil, I prefer aggro over aggro-control.

//Manipulation
4 Brainstorm

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil

//Burn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer/Thunderous Wrath

//Land
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Submerge
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Searing Blaze
3 Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
Sulfuric Vortex
Spell Pierce
Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre

I have tested Thunderous Wrath and find it good at best. It is not that powerful for a deck that needs to end the game before turn 7, meaning you will blind flip Wrath less than half the time vs. it being in your hand (an average of 2.5 damage with added variance.) The ability to Brainstorm it back and cheat with Delver peeking and a Fetch Land to shuffle away a non-instant/sorcery makes it considerable. Reducing the Instant/Sorcery count by 1to accomdate Lavamancer is made up by his ability to clear the way for Devil if it hits later in the game than desired.

Submerge is absolutely nuts against Maverick (added strength by responding to fetch/Knight triggers). It is also strong against Threshold, as they have a 70% chance of having Delver/Tarmogoyf in play by turn 2.

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Originally Posted by oRen

// Lands
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Mountain (3)
2 [R] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [M12] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ISD] Delver of Secrets/Insectile Aberration
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
4 [ZEN] Goblin Guide

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
3 [NE] Daze
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [R] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Chain Lightning (should be 4 I guess)
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [VI] Fireblast (-> Thunderous Wrath)

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Smash to Smithereens
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 3 [SC] Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar

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I would
-1 Daze
-1 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
+1 Fetchland
+1 Thunderous Wrath
+1 Chain Lightning

And you need at least 2x Submerge (I like 3x) in your SB.

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Originally Posted by David Kaplan

With Vexing Devil, I prefer aggro over aggro-control.

//Manipulation
4 Brainstorm

//Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil

//Burn
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
1 Grim Lavamancer/Thunderous Wrath

//Land
3 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Submerge
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Searing Blaze
3 Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
Sulfuric Vortex
Spell Pierce
Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre

I have tested Thunderous Wrath and find it good at best. It is not that powerful for a deck that needs to end the game before turn 7, meaning you will blind flip Wrath less than half the time vs. it being in your hand (an average of 2.5 damage with added variance.) The ability to Brainstorm it back and cheat with Delver peeking and a Fetch Land to shuffle away a non-instant/sorcery makes it considerable. Reducing the Instant/Sorcery count by 1to accomdate Lavamancer is made up by his ability to clear the way for Devil if it hits later in the game than desired.

Submerge is absolutely nuts against Maverick (added strength by responding to fetch/Knight triggers). It is also strong against Threshold, as they have a 70% chance of having Delver/Tarmogoyf in play by turn 2.

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I think that I would still want 1 basic Island and 4 Mountains with 3 Volcanic and 11 fetchlands but I do like your aggro style for the deck. Spell Pierce could be Flusterstorm in SB for me, Grim would not be Maindeck unless I ran 2-3 of them while PoP could go down to 2 off leaving more room in the SB (I am thinking more GY hate).

Thanks for sharing the list though I really do like it and Vexing Devil will be seeing a fair amount of play I would say between this style of deck and Sligh decks.

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Originally Posted by BigBopper

The "U/R Delverburn" lists just got first AND second at the SCGopen in Birmingham. Maybe that's something to show how competetive this deck is? Total amount of counters = 7 (including Daze, FoW and Spell Pierce).
Here's the link: http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...irmingham.html

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I was reading the tournament coverage, and I notice the second-place U/R Delver player boarded in Smash to Smithereens, Sulfuric Vortex, and Sulfur Elemental in his semifinals round against Hive Mind (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...er_vs_dav.html) and Surgical Extraction in his finals matchup (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...s_andrew_.html).

This seems like a mistake to me, because there are definitely 60 cards stronger in my opinion for games 2 and 3, but he did get 2nd place at a high profile event. Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Can anyone explain the logic behind this?

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The level of playskill at SCG opens tends to vary a lot. Smash to Smithereens at least deals with Grim Monolith which is not that unreasonable ... while the other three cards were just terrible choices indeed.

Damn it. I hate Goblin Guide so much that I might drop my intents of running this deck as my deck of choice. :really:

Maybe he was expecting Leyline of Sanctity, like most Show and Tell decks have in their sideboard.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Maybe he was expecting Leyline of Sanctity, like most Show and Tell decks have in their sideboard.

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Actually, that would make some sense, although I would be hesitant to cut my some of my best cards (Bolts and Chains). Grim Lavamancer can probably go, although it's ironically the least dead of the three under Leyline.

Well, you don't want dead cards, do you? If he doesn't have bounce, it makes sense to cut at least the sorcery speed Nukes like Chain Lightning and side in more reliable damage in form of creatures and enchantments.

Unfortunately I didn't find the boarding plans on the linked website. :(

Both Sulfur Elemental and Vortex are not what you want in this matchup. The cards do 2 and 3 damage on your turn 4 which is pretty bad (while Vortex also forces you to tap yourself out). Smash to Smithereens is reasonable, Elemantal okayish but really slow and Vortex terrible. I'd rather keep a fair amount of burn in and hope for no Leyline.

Also boarding Surgical in the Mirror is just terrible.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Well, you don't want dead cards, do you? If he doesn't have bounce, it makes sense to cut at least the sorcery speed Nukes like Chain Lightning and side in more reliable damage in form of creatures and enchantments.

Unfortunately I didn't find the boarding plans on the linked website. :(

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It's one thing if you were playing regular burn, but you're still playing a blue deck with the option to Brainstorm away dead cards if your opponent does indeed bring in Leylines.

In addition, you have Force of Will and Red Elemental Blasts coming in against Hive Mind. The extra Price of Progress in the sideboard is also very good if they're trying to kill you with Pacts (since they get doubled). I'd also prefer to bring in the Surgical Extractions to mess up their Intuitions over the Smash to Smithereens to mess up their Grim Monoliths, but that's just me. At that point, there really aren't many cards to take out.

Usually you board out all Intuitions when you have the slightest expectation that your opponent will board in Extractions. It would not be unreasonable to board them in because Extraction can be reasonably good but it just would not expect the card to hit something the intuitioned for as a 3 off. Also ... think of this ... you let Intuition resolve and they tutor for 3 different pacts.

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Originally Posted by oRen

Usually you board out all Intuitions when you have the slightest expectation that your opponent will board in Extractions. It would not be unreasonable to board them in because Extraction can be reasonably good but it just would not expect the card to hit something the intuitioned for as a 3 off. Also ... think of this ... you let Intuition resolve and they tutor for 3 different pacts.

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I understand that strategy in most combo decks, but after playing with Hive Mind a few times, I don't feel that deck can afford to lose the card tutoring ability of Surgical Extraction. It doesn't have the search quality of other Intuition combo decks such as High Tide (12 cantrips, multiple draw effects, Merchant Scroll) or U/R Painter (cantrips + Tops), or the redundancy of Sneak Attack (in which all of the combo pieces achieve the same purpose, unlike Hive Mind where you might draw into 2 Emrakuls and 2 Pacts).

Surgical Extraction is awesome if you can mess up their Intuitions, but it's still reasonable (i.e. not completely dead) in other occasions if you can win a counter a semi-useful piece and remove all existing copies from the game. Contrast that with Smash to Smithereens, which is in fact useless if your opponent doesn't have a Grim Monolith and still costs two mana to be useful (and is not as gamebreaking as Surgical Extraction in the "good" cases).

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

It's one thing if you were playing regular burn, but you're still playing a blue deck with the option to Brainstorm away dead cards if your opponent does indeed bring in Leylines.

In addition, you have Force of Will and Red Elemental Blasts coming in against Hive Mind. The extra Price of Progress in the sideboard is also very good if they're trying to kill you with Pacts (since they get doubled). I'd also prefer to bring in the Surgical Extractions to mess up their Intuitions over the Smash to Smithereens to mess up their Grim Monoliths, but that's just me. At that point, there really aren't many cards to take out.

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As I said, I didn't see his boarding. If someone can post it, I would be thankful.
Playing dead cards just to Brainstorm them away isn't a good idea, as you have dead draws.

Again, he cannot deal with the Leyline, so taking out dead cards for inefficient, but damage dealing cards doesn't seem wrong. Of course FoW, PoP and Blasts should be boarded in though.
I assume they got the decklist of their opponent (SCG does this in the semi- and finale, right?), so boarding against Leyline seems legit.

I have been messing around with the following configuration in testing Thunderous Wrath and trying to maximize it, and I would certainly say that this build has been loads of fun at the very least:

//Creatures = 12
[4x] Delver of Secrets
[4x] Goblin Guide
[4x] Vexing Devil

//Burn Spells = 17
[4x] Thunderous Wrath
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Chain Lightning
[3x] Fireblast
[2x] Magma Jet

//Utility = 13
[4x] Daze
[4x] Brainstorm
[4x] Ponder
[1x] Preordain

//Lands = 18
[4x] Volcanic Island
[2x] Mountain
[1x] Island
[4x] Scalding Tarn
[2x] Wooded Foothills
[2x] Arid Mesa
[1x] Bloodstained Mire
[1x] Polluted Delta
[1x] Misty Rainforest

I also tried a version with Grim Lavamancer, but I found the tempo of this version to be more apt for a Miraculous Wrath. :tongue:

The configuration looks crude, but the idea was to use the cantrip effects to do the usual filtering, and to also setup Thunderous Wrath whenever possible. Surprisingly, I've rarely encountered the scenarios where I expected Thunderous Wrath to be annoyingly dead, as the presence of Brainstorm in the deck was enough to smooth things out. I expect these scenarios to happen every so often, so it might really just be a matter of testing it some more.

Vexing Devil was also surprisingly effecting in supporting the game plan, though I would have to note that it's still an inferior Turn-1 play to Delver of Secrets or Goblin Guide.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else has had the chance to test something similar.

Cheers,
jares

What about See Beyond or Vendilion Clique as another way to get Wrath out of your hand? I think that would be more effective than Magma Jet and Preordain. Clique might be a little high on the curve, but it also offers a good deal of disruption, and currently your list looks weak to combo.

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Originally Posted by keys

What about See Beyond or Vendilion Clique as another way to get Wrath out of your hand? I think that would be more effective than Magma Jet and Preordain. Clique might be a little high on the curve, but it also offers a good deal of disruption, and currently your list looks weak to combo.

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I'm glad that you noticed that the slots used by Preordain and Magma Jet are indeed the flex slots. Vendilion Clique looks good as a means of disruption, though I was thinking that a Thunderous Wrath in hand is almost as good as one in the bottom of the library (though the Fetches could help with this), not to mention that it took a Vendilion Clique trigger to get it there - seems like a lot of effort to get the card back in the library.

Honestly, I haven't had the chance to properly test the Magma Jets, so I really can't comment too much on that. I didn't really remember that See Beyond could help with the idea, but at first glance I would probably still choose Magma Jet because of its utility, and also because See Beyond seems to be more suited for a deck that thrives on card advantage. It's good to know that the option is there though.

I would also like to hear your opinion on Daze for this particular configuration. I've generally been happy with it, though it's still at the back of my mind that sooner or later I would get it as a top-deck at the wrong time.

I just noticed that I completely overlooked the possibility of using Price of Progress. I like that the majority of the deck requires one mana to play, though Price of Progress can easily slide into the slots occupied by Magma Jet.

Cheers,
jares

Daze is a beast, but I run it along with 1-2 Spell Pierce and 1-2 Price of Progress (no Magma Jets and Preordains and only 2-3 Wraths).
I often find myself fighting against Jitte and/or Batterskull, so additional counters are needed. I also tried 1-2 Fire // Ice, they seem quite decent and I would play them over Magma Jet anytime.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Daze is a beast, but I run it along with 1-2 Spell Pierce and 1-2 Price of Progress (no Magma Jets and Preordains and only 2-3 Wraths).
I often find myself fighting against Jitte and/or Batterskull, so additional counters are needed. I also tried 1-2 Fire // Ice, they seem quite decent and I would play them over Magma Jet anytime.

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I've also been running [cards]Spell Pierce in the sideboard, but I haven't tried it in the main deck so far. Now that you mentioned it, would Spell Snare be worth considering? I've been thinking about Price of Progress, and have been reluctant to put it back because of the recoil that I get from it, though that might really just be a minor issue. Fire // Ice surely seems like something worth looking into, and it does add more flexibility to the deck's options.

What do your sideboards look like for these configurations?

Cheers,
jares

I am still working on the maindeck, so my sideboard is just a bunch of experimental cards like 2 Fire // Ice, 2 Sulfuric Vortex, another Price of Progress, more Spell Pierces and a Jitte (I am forcing this one into it, because my other decks are all combo and I really wanna play this card xD ).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

I am still working on the maindeck, so my sideboard is just a bunch of experimental cards like 2 Fire // Ice, 2 Sulfuric Vortex, another Price of Progress, more Spell Pierces and a Jitte (I am forcing this one into it, because my other decks are all combo and I really wanna play this card xD ).

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Haha, same here. Mine is littered with Faerie Macabre, Smash to Smithereens, Spell Pierce, Vexing Shusher, and Sulfuric Vortex. But I agree - we'll probably have to get the main deck straightened-out first.

Cheers,
jares

Shusher seems nice, but I guess he's too slow. Smash and Gravehate (Surgical, Crypt or FMacabre, not sure though) will definitely make it into my sideboard (I am short on Smashes and most of my gravehate is in other decks).

I have mostly tested against Esper Stoneblade only (highly favorable - not that those dozen games mean anything), so I will keep my list under wip-status until I had the opportunity to play a fair amount of games against other Tier 1 and 2 decks.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Shusher seems nice, but I guess he's too slow. Smash and Gravehate (Surgical, Crypt or FMacabre, not sure though) will definitely make it into my sideboard (I am short on Smashes and most of my gravehate is in other decks).

I have mostly tested against Esper Stoneblade only (highly favorable - not that those dozen games mean anything), so I will keep my list under wip-status until I had the opportunity to play a fair amount of games against other Tier 1 and 2 decks.

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It's funny because I actually ported that sideboard from the Burn list that I play, therefore the Vexing Shushers. :tongue:

I have had a game or two where the Vexing Shushers did win me the game, though, so I can really scoff at its inclusion so far. Other options include Submerge, which looks good against a fair share of the current decks to beat.

Cheers,
jares

Don't flame me please, but I've been fiddling with Kiln Fiend for a bit. I know it's a bad card, but it's so powerful that I keep wondering that there might be a way to make it work.

I've tried playing builds with Gitaxian Probe, Fire/Ice, Fireblast and even Vapor Snag (this one is bad) just to have some free spells and ways to remove blockers to connect with the Fiend. Once you connect for 7/10 on turn 3 it's pretty much game over. I've even connected for lethal on turn 3 with cantrip, Probe, Bolt and Fireblast.

He is not even that much of a bad topdeck, because even a single cantrip can represent up to 7 or 10 damage if you opponent doesn't have blocker/removal.

He is also good against combo, because he can dish out huge amounts of damage when they don't have any disruption. Stuff like Turn 3 Bolt, into Brainstorm and then double Daze your own Brainstorm.

The problem is, you are focusing so much spells on pumping Kiln Fiend while being vulnerable to a single removal spell.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

The problem is, you are focusing so much spells on pumping Kiln Fiend while being vulnerable to a single removal spell.

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So is every other creature. Don't run jank like Vapor Snag and just test him. He's amazing for those kinds of decks.

If they use removal on him, then that is less removal for Delver. Not a huge issue honestly.

Yeah, because you have to play crap like Probe and stuff to pump your Goblin Guide...

It's a 2-Drop which needs "setup", is completely vulnerable and doesn't have evasion.
Compare that to every other creature in UR Delver.

Please Drago, refrain from posting, if you don't think about your arguments or lack the reading skills to understand a WHOLE sentence.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

Yeah, because you have to play crap like Probe and stuff to pump your Goblin Guide...

It's a 2-Drop which needs "setup", is completely vulnerable and doesn't have evasion.
Compare that to every other creature in UR Delver.

Please Drago, refrain from posting, if you don't think about your arguments or lack the reading skills to understand a WHOLE sentence.

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I would say it requires as much of a setup as Delver. Sometimes your Delver just doesn't flip naturally, and you need to "waste" a Brainstorm to fix that.

The Fiend actually rewards you for doing what you would already do, that is, play instants and sorceries.

He is just as vulnerable as every other creature you play. But yeah, he lacks evasion.

One other card I tested was Apostile's Blessing. I does 3 things: allows to evade blockers, counters removal and allow you to block with the Fiend killing a X/4 creature while the Fiend still lives.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

I would say it requires as much of a setup as Delver. Sometimes your Delver just doesn't flip naturally, and you need to "waste" a Brainstorm to fix that.

The Fiend actually rewards you for doing what you would already do, that is, play instants and sorceries.

He is just as vulnerable as every other creature you play. But yeah, he lacks evasion.

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You need at least one instant or sorcery if you want to attack, while Delver often naturally flips. One Brainstorm for a permanent 3 power flyer? As a 1-Drop? Same setup? Not close.

You rarely play instants in your main phase. A decent amount is countermagic or things you don't want to slam on the table if you don't need to.

Has anyone looked at the four top 32s from SCG Providence?

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8252

I see a few things going on. First is that this archetype is clearly up for interpretation (this thread sure is a testament to that) and that it's a popular choice for budget players because of how 'relatively' cheap it is to build. I'm particularly interested in hearing from players that attended this event (if there were any) and can attest to the success of Thunderous Wrath.

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Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn

You need at least one instant or sorcery if you want to attack, while Delver often naturally flips. One Brainstorm for a permanent 3 power flyer? As a 1-Drop? Same setup? Not close.

You rarely play instants in your main phase. A decent amount is countermagic or things you don't want to slam on the table if you don't need to.

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You got me there. But you can't stop me from playing Fiend at the local store just for kicks! Anyway, my Snapcasters arrived in the mail...

We can go back to discussing real cards now.


What makes me think a bit, is how the number of Price to Progress differ. Seen 0/2/3/4 in various lists. What's up with that? I know UWb can play on all basics, but some decks simply don't have that choice. Especially RUG... LOL.