You might run into color-issues, but it might possibly work. Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
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You might run into color-issues, but it might possibly work. Give it a shot and let us know how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Not necessarily. We have two sides: cloudposts into explosive colorless base versus slow game with colorful lands. It's much more common lose in second situation and EE could work fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Top 8 again at SCG Indianapolis!
Old school build with no board sweepers, 3 Pithing Needles and a set of Brainstorm and Show and Tell
I thought I'd post that 12-Post made Top 8 at SCG Indianapolis. I don't have the deck list yet, but it lost to 4 Color Loam in the Top 8. I missed the match because I didn't find out until quarterfinals, but if I had to guess, Devastating Dreams didn't help Dan Neeley, but the commentators also mentioned that he was Wasteland and Chalice of the Void locked.
Looks like he had to face the nightmare matchup...recurring wastelands + devastating dreams sounds, well...devastating.
So is there a general consensus on when you should play mainboard pithing needles vs. oblivion stones? Is there a specific metagame that strongly favors one over the other? It seems like needle is better against tempo strategies while o-stone is better against midrange/control decks?
Dan Neeley's Deck:
//Creatures (7)
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
//Lands (25)
1 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
//Spells (28)
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
//Sideboard
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
2 Elephant Grass
4 Flusterstorm
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
EDIT: I started having Deja vu, and it turns out that I was right. Dan Neeley ran a card-for-card copy of Tony Murata's deck that won Star City Games San Diego in January.
Makes sense if you put it that way. Let us know how your tests work out, we might have something there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
It wasn't Crop Rotaions enough against Loams?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
Anyway I'd like to see the list that beat Post-Ramp in quarters
When someone finds the video, we can see for ourselves, but based on the commentary in the semi-finals about quarters, Jeff Hoogland (who played 4 Color Loam) probably set Chalice of the Void to 1. That kills all our early game tricks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Unfortunately, Star City games didn't post the complete Loam decklist... on accident I assume... so we don't have the complete decklist to look at: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=53930
//Creatures (6)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
//Lands (18)
1 Forest
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Maze of Ith
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
//Spells (25)
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Burning Wish
2 Devastating Dreams
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Life from the Loam
//Sideboard
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Dreadbore
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Retribution of the Meek
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bojuka Bog
He wasn't running a maindeck of 49 cards, so 11 are missing. I know at least two copies (he probably ran 4 though) of Wasteland is one of themand he ran some number of Grove of the Burnwillows as well.
Check the deck tech they got it right there. Seems like the worst matchup for 12 post on that top 8 meta lol If post where to face UWR Miracles it might have been a cake walk :laugh:
http://sv.twitch.tv/scglive/b/376043351?t=811m43s
Here's the video for those interested. Not a lot happening in the match, chalice and wasteland lock ended the game quick.
Wasteland, Grove and Knight of the Reliquary are the missing cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockingbird
I found his deck list on MTGSalvation: the missing cards areQuote:
Originally Posted by Skurt
4 Knight of Reliquary
4 Wasteland
2 Grove of the Burwillows
Also, Dan Neeley's posted on the MTGSalvation thread, so I'm pointing him this way as well as inquiring into his experience.
Could be Ratchet Bomb a good card to increase fastness to destroy Chalice of the Void and/or that Mox Diamond, Dark Confidant and also Delver of Secrets or anything else? I think we should discuss how Engineered Explosives and Ratchet Bomb can give to us some time. Remember: Bomb is awesome against turn1 combo (12 tokens) and Affinity decks.
Played tonight at my local meta. There was 9 people. (Same meta as Arianrhod). I ended up going 3-0-1 and took first. Will post a tournament report tomorrow.
Congratz. What list you running?Quote:
Originally Posted by doomedfire
So report time. Here is my list.
4 Tropical Island:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glcacial Chasm
4 Expedition Maps
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation
1 All is Dust
3 Show and Tell
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
1 Ulamog, The Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
SB: 2 Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 All is Dust
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
R1: Dredge
I actually played this match out the day before and quickly realized that with a green source and a crop rotation he cant really do anything. So when we played today, he realized this and held back on his dredging, hard casting his narcameobas and Golgari thugs. Didn't matter. Apparently running 5 Bojuka bog MD is really bad for him.
-1 Needle +1 Tabernacle
Not sure I even needed to SB to be honest. But game two goes much the same.
1-0
R2: Dead Guy Ale (With Green splash)
Game 1 we go back and forth till I think I won with an Emrakul.
-3 Show and Tell +1 Maze +1 Tabernacle +1 Life from the Loam
Game 2. He started to beat my face in with a Confidant equiped with a batterskull and sword of body and mind. Then when I milled an Eldrazi, Deathrite Shaman it away.
Onto game 3. Repeal was very good in this match up and maze of ith made him just go. "Pass turn" every turn. Eventually won with a space monster.
2:0
R3: BUG Delver
We start off and he plays Turn 1 Underground with ponder, turn 2 underground into brainstorm ponder. At this point im thinking he is on storm. Turn 3 he drops a Delver and we go from there. I proceed to take the longest game of my life game 1. At one point he was sitting there with flipped delver and 2 Goyfs (Like 4/5 or 5/6) I draw its a 4th cloudpost play it tap the 2 I have Play Oblivion stone...Stare...It resolves...Go to watch the world burn mode. He wasn't happy about this. I then proceed to Glimmerpost/Vesuva Glimmerpost to like 40 life. He hymns away my karakas and Eye of Ugin and I proceed to have infinite mana and nothing to do, so I draw go. This happens for a few turns till I top deck emrakul. Game 2. At this point there is like 15-20 minutes on the clock. I end up not having enough business as he beats me with his goyfs. Awkward was having 10 mana for ulamog for 2-3 turns in a row. (Sinkhole's suck for me). Like 2 minutes on the clock we just end up drawing.
2-0-1
R4: Scapewish
Before the game begins I have an epiphany on one mode of what to do against this deck, keep a green source open with crop rotation for glacial chasm in response to all of the valakut triggers. I don't remember much of game 1 just that I ended up getting it. I failed with the SB big time game two.
-3 Pithing -1 Bokuka Bog -Something I cant remember +3 Flusterstorm +2 Venser, Shaper Savant
We start the game off with him Badlands Cabal Therapy, I cant recall what he named. But turn 2. He droped a pithing needle on map (Annoying since I turn 1 mapped) then a veteran explorer and flash back the cabal therapy taking the 2 crop rotations I had. I next like 4-5 turns is a whole lot of Slaughter Games. First on Primeval Titan, Then on Kozilek, then On Emrakul. So I'm sitting there with 1 win con left in deck. I proceed to have a light bulb light up and Rotate into a Eye of Ugin then search and hard cast the ulamog target the pithing needle then map for a karakas and proceed to annihilate then bounce recast a few times till he scoops. (I was very pleased with myself for realizing this.) Both games I did not see a single sideboard card I brought in.
3-0-1 (Aka: First)
Some thoughts. I started playing around Scars and started playing legacy around maybe a year ago at most, so I might be completely off on some of my summations.
First thought. I like this build without brainstorm because while I feel it is a strong card. With 4 Tops and 2 Trinket Mage to grab tops. I feel like brainstorms are really unnecessary unless your in a field with a lot of Hymn, Thoughtsieze and the effects that are as such. Eventually I would like to get a second candelabra. With that being said, just running one, I seemed to have it when I needed it. I also reeeeeeeally need to learn how to sideboard. It has always been my weakness. The one of Maze of Ith in the SB I actually was a fan of. Im not quite sure which I like better for the MD between All is Dust and Oblivion Stone. The sideboard Life from the Loam I was a fan of. I used it against BUG delver and he wasn't to pleased with it. I really need to grind out this deck more so I can get better at it/Not make bad play errors.
Apologies in advance for the holes in memory. Last night I was full on A.D.D. mode (Made choosing lines of play so much fun /s) Any and all advice welcomed.
But yea. I had a lot of fun. Thanks for reading.
To be fair, Seth was only displeased with the Loam because he derped and forgot that Deathrite could eat out of your graveyard, too. However, it does still allow you to "overload" Deathrite, which I think merits consideration. I also think that you will need to run BEBs at some point, given that we have 2+ burn decks that can show up in our local, as well as a TES / Belcher. So, while Loam may be an interesting thought for the future, IMO that slot and probably one of the Flusterstorm slots should be a pair of BEBs.
Also, in retrospect I think I mis-named on the 2nd Slaughter Games. The first takes Primeval, no question. But I think that then the chain goes Ulamog -> Emrakul -> Kozilek. My thought process, muddled as it was at the time, was that Kozilek is cheapest, and you have an infinite mana hand, so if you drew Kozilek, you'd be able to cast him sooner. However, Kozilek can be destroyed whereas Ulamog can't, which opens up a few more lines of play. I mean, it sucks that you get a Draw 4, but that's probably better in the situation than you getting a Vindicate.
Fun fact about our game 1, by the way. My hand was slow, but if at any point in that game you had drawn/cast Show and Tell, I would have won on the spot. I had my own Primeval in hand, with a Scapeshift ready to go. So I could have shown Primeval, swung with Primeval, and Shifted ftw. I just didn't hit ANY other ramp until it was way too late >_>
I can see your note about Brainstorm, but I'm not sure what I would add in their absence. I just don't like Pithing Needle, personally =/
Played a couple of tourneys with UG posts (5 for around 20 ppl and one for 100), always either in top or very close to it.
Last 2 i switched brainstorm to needles and it seems VERY nice. Main deck needles sounded really lame to me, but i was wrong. Brainstorms are indeed a kind of overdo for this deck, since there are not many cards you want to dump in the deck and get rid of them via shuffle. Lands? You need em. Big ones? Not much of em, really. Spells? Nah, you always need your maps and candelabras, crops and tops.
Still cant find All is Dusts in local place, can`t say much about stones vs. dusts. In theory, i would like dusts more, since i always get removal in stones, but it needs to be tested for sure.
One good point about Brainstorm is it is your only defense against discard strategies during Game 1.
I've lost games due to a well-timed Thoughtsieze or Hymn to Tourach from an opposing player, and made me wish I had Brainstorm in hand.
Although, admittedly, I haven't tested enough to determine whether they're a necessity in a Black-dominant meta.
What up guys !
i was thinking about adding Deserted temple to the deck ?
works really well with, cloudpost, karakas, eye, and even tropicals if you have a hard time getting double GG
Btw its my first post here, so i dont have a clue on how to make a link for cards :)
Does anyone still run multiple Emrakul in this deck, or is it strictly the 1-of each package now? I haven't run this deck in a few months now, but I used to always run 2-3 Emrakuls + 1 Ulamog.
Disadvantages:
Emrakul is expensive. Works better in builds with Trinket Mage and > 2 Candelabra.
Advantages:
Makes your Show and Tells scarier. (Ulamog and Kozilek eat StP)
If you hit critical mana, you can get infinite turns. This has dug me out of some games where I simply could not afford to pass the turn even after annihilate 6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
You can still use Karakas to get infinite turns in the versions with only 1 Emrakul.
Deserted Temple is essentially a crappier version of Candelabra of Tawnos, so if you're already running Candelabras (which you should be...), then it will only end up wasting valuable space in your 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oxide
I always just ask one question to myself when considering another card for the deck: Is it better than any of the other cards in the main deck? If the answer is no, then it's not worth using. Anything but no, and that's when I start considering it.
If you can find the space, then you could give it a shot... But I dunno - I'd be hard-pressed to find anything to cut, especially since Deserted Temple takes up a turn's land-play.
I was thinking hard about discard and Surgical hate, and then I found this in my binder: Library of Leng. Is there a particular reason why we should not play this card?
My opinion is it's too narrow in its use. It is a dead card against any non-black deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I would rather run extra counterspells in the sideboard, but that's just me.
Just spent last 5 hours playtesting this on MWS. Probably repeating what everyone knows - but this is v v good against the fair decks and v v poor against the unfair ones (at least so far in my experience).
Ways to better improve the sideboard to deal with reanimator/combo?
Against Reanimator:Quote:
Originally Posted by Madmaniac21
- You have 5 "copies" of Bojuka Bog main deck (1 Bog, 4 Vesuva), which you can play at Instant Speed
- Don't play Show and Tell - you're only helping them win
- Games 2 and 3, bring in additional counterspells from the sideboard
Against Dredge:
- If you need pointers on this, the deck is not for you :laugh:
- In all seriousness, 5 Bojuka Bogs will ruin their day unless they have a God-Hand which combos out Turn 1 on the play
Against Storm:
- There is very little you can do Game 1, save for when they have an extremely slow hand, while you have a fast one
- Every point of life is crucial, so maximize your use of Glimmerpost... this forces them to need a higher storm count to kill you
- Decks that use Empty the Warrens can be stalled indefinitely by Glacial Chasm... it doesn't work against Tendrils for obvious reasons
- Game 2 and 3, bring in Flusterstorms, Mindbreak Traps, Chalice of the Void and other storm-hate cards. You will need to dedicate your sb space to this matchup
Against Belcher:
- Game 1 you will probably lose, unless you're on the play, and play a Pithing Needle turn 1 on Goblin Charbelcher
- If they go for an EtW win, Glimmerpost + Glacial Chasm to stall them out
- Game 2 and 3, board in storm-hate cards
Against Show and Tell variants:
- If they Show and Tell a legendary fatty, you put Primeval Titan into play and fetch for Karakas
- Pithing Needle on Sneak Attack, with the 2nd one on Griselbrand - be careful of Echoing Truth though
- If they put Omniscience into play, your only out is Oblivion Stone, assuming you have 5 mana ready to activate
- Game 2 and 3, bring in counterspells and Venser, Shaper Savant from the sideboard
Against TinFins:
- Pithing Needle on Griselbrand all day
- Crop Rotation a Bojuka Bog into play
- Game 2, bring in more counterspells and storm-hate (more specifically, Mindbreak Trap)
Against Elves Combo:
- Glacial Chasm stops them from winning
- Oblivion Stone/All is Dust does wonders against them
- Pithing Needle on Wirewood Symbiote if you're running them
- Game 2 and 3, Cursed Totem will give them fits
- Mindbreak Trap works as a sideboard option as well
- Elephant Grass can also work to stall the game even for a little bit
Against MUD Combo:
- Pithing Needle on Kuldotha Forgemaster
- Oblivion Stone will wipe their board
- Game 2 and 3, more copies of Oblivion Stone, and maybe Cursed Totem come into play
Were you the one that needled wasteland vs a maverick in copenhagen? =)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoldo
I've been testing this deck for GP Strassbourg for a couple of weeks now, and I think it's time to share my experience and get some feedback at this point.
First of, here's my list as it currently stands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion Stone
1 All Is Dust
3 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Show and Tell
SB: 1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Venser, Shaper Savant
Here's my rationale behind making some of these choices:
-No Trinket Mage:
To be honest, I found this card to be very underwhelming. There's usually three possible scenarios that happened when I cast a Trinket Mage:
1.) I am looking for a specific land and get an expedition map.
2.) I am ready to go for big mana and grab my Candelabra
3.) I am threatened by a specific card and grab a Pithing Needle to shut off something that already has done far too much damage
The times where I Trinket Maged for a proactive Needle were rare and I never really needed to grab a Top with it. Looking at the ways I used the Trinket Mage, I decided that just cutting out the middle man and running a 4th Expedition Map and 2nd Candelabra achieved almost the same thing at less of a mana cost. The literal best use I had for a Trinket Mage in a test game so far was throwing it in front of a Blightsteel Colossus to survive a single hit. That doesn't reek card quality to me.
-Pithing Needles:
I think Pithing Needle is really strong at this point in time. It's always good to have reassurance against Wasteland, but it also shuts off, or at least delays, several key cards in various matchups. Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, sometimes even Stoneforge Mystic, Deathrite Shaman, Engineered Explosivesand Batterskull are all targets that I've named so far. The clear and center target for this card in this deck is to fight Wastelands, but it has sufficient utility in a lot of matchups that I don't feel bad running it at all. I also feel that 3 is the right number to have. They aren't that bad in multiples, but you generally don't want two in your opener.
-4 Expedition Map:
I've been thoroughly impressed by this card. Our Land base is akin to an underdog sports team in a feel-good disney movie: It needs just the right combination of pieces to unlock its full potential. Expedition Map is always that one land you need to supplement your manabasem be it a Cloudpost to start ramping, a Glimmerpost to get to the crucial Primeval Mana next turn, some colored mana so you can actually cast some of your spells or any of our utility lands. It's not instant speed like Crop Rotation, but hand disruption (besides Hymn or Liliana) doesn't interact with it at all and it actually gives you an additional land, which can be quite crucial. I really don't want to miss land drops in this deck, and Expedition Map ensures that I get the land drops I really want at the moment. My Playgroup has started to think of this card in a similar vein, and several people have picked up a habit of blind Cabal Therapying me for Expedition Map T1. Independent of whether or not that is actually a good play it at least shows the influence this card has had on the matches I've played so far. I know several people consider it to be one of the weaker cards amongst the deck's staples, but I've been very satisfied with running the full set so far.
-2 O-Stone/1 All is Dust:
I've been varying these numbers quite a bit while testing, going as high as 4/1 and as low as 2/0. After a while I ended up at 3 board sweepers as a sweet spot, and have recently swapped the third O-Stone for an All is Dust. Dropping an O-Stone slightly worsens the Show and Tell matchups preboard, but those already aren't very good to begin with if you're playing a competent player so I don't mind too much. All is Dust is handy if you just can't afford to kill your Pithing Needle and have no time to put a fate counter on it and is sometimes on sale thanks to an Eye of Ugin. 7 Mana is slightly easier to reach than 8 in some matchups, and All is Dust also handles Progenitus/Thrun for whatever that might be worth. I'm happy with the numbers as they stand, and I'd rather have the 3rd O-Stone than the 2nd All is Dust in the board.
-4 Repeal: This is a bit of a doubleedged sword. It's really good in some matchups and utterly dead in others. It's super sweet in the Counterbalance matches or against non-blue Tarmogoyf decks. It does some great tempo plays occassionally and is sometimes your only out to grim situations. In the absolute worst case it can act as a Divination in conjunction with a Top so the card is never all that dead. I don't mind boarding out some number on the draw, but I've liked the full set in the maindeck so far.
-No Brainstorm:
This is probably the most controversial choice I've made. Simply put, there isn't really a spot for these in my current build and I've never really missed them since I've cut them. With Top I've generally got enough library manipulation and Top + Brainstorm don't really interact all that well. There aren't many cards I want to be floating on the top of my library in this deck and outside of the occasional desire of getting that Bojuka Bog from my Hand into play at instant speed with Crop Rotation I never felt the desire to shuffle anything back in. Sure, being able to get rid of Eldrazi from your starting hand can be sweet, but it's not a necessity if your deck can just, you know, actually cast them. The more we've been playing this format the less impressed I am with brainstorming in response to a discard spell (across all kinds of different decks) so I am not that terribly concerned about that aspect of it, although it can be really useful at times. My Bottomline is this: I certainly don't have space or desire for 3 or 4 Brainstorms in the deck. I can see making room for 2 of them by cutting a Repeal and an Expedition Map, but I'm simply not sure if that's worthwhile. What are your experiences with Brainstorm less lists? Are 4 Repeal just too many?
-27 Land/61 cards:
Many Cloudpost lists seem to end up at 61 cards, and there's a pretty good reason for that: Our deck runs 7 tutor targets we actually almost never want to draw. It gives us an additional slot we really want at times. All of our important cards still show up frequently enough that the percentage loss of running and additional card is fairly small compared to having another silver bullet or one more card with a specific function in the deck. I also think the mana base runs that tiny bit smoother at 27/61 instead of 26/60 (or god forbid, 26/61 or 25/60 like some lists I saw. That just seems wrong.) I've decided to run a basic forest over the second basic island because I like having a stable green source for casting Primeval Titan without Candelabra or having access to a Crop Rotation I might draw later on. I'm not sure how important that is, and I'm also not sure how many people realize that frequently, wasting our Tropical is better than wasting our Cloudpost. Otherwise the choice of lands is pretty standard.
Has anybody had success with Thespian Stage? The card has occassionally done some cool stuff in a select few games, like being a tropical for Primeval Titan, then legend ruling a Karakas later on to allow me to Emrakul Lock them, but it just almost always was a colorless source that never really got activated for any profit. I ultimately decided to cut it because I was just not impressed.
Do we really need the full 4 Tropical Islands? I've been considering replacing one by a 2nd basic Island or another fetchland, and I'm quite in favor of running a 6th fetchland if I should include the two Brainstorm in the list.
-Sideboard:
This thing is super stock. 4th Show and Tell for the matchups where we just NEED to be quick, Tabernacle and 4th Board Sweeper are also pretty standard. The two Venser are sweet in Show&Tell matchups, against High Tide (sometimes) and Counterbalance. I've been running a 1/1 split for a while but I just don't have room for the 1-of in the maindeck at this point in time. After that, things become a bit less obvious to me.
Do we really want Chalice of the Void? I've never really boarded them against anything besides Storm (which I, admittedly, barely tested so far because noone in our group is a good storm player). Chalice on 1 is suicidal, Chalice on 2 or 3 can be good in some matchups, but are fairly slow, hard to get past the counterspells in those matchups and are hard to find if you board a single Chalice on no Trinket Mages. Basically, this is a singleton hatecard against Storm, and at that rate I just don't think it's worth having. Sure, turning of LEDs makes the life for Storm players quite a bit harder, but it's not good enough to mulligan to, and then a 1-of just doesn't seem to justify the sideboard space. I'd like to replace this with a more widely applicable hatecard.
Do we want 9 or 10 Counterspells in the sideboard? I mean, I fully understand WHY they are there, what matchups we want them for, and why we run the split we actually do. What I am not entirely convinced of yet is that we want ALL of them. I haven't tested much against combo decks yet, and I might completely change my opinion after jamming a dozen of games in the obvious combo matchups, but right now I have a feeling that I only want to have a total of 8 Counterspells in my board. Feel free to weight in on this.
Finally, here's a couple things I've been thinking of bringing on or things that have concerned me for a bit:
-I feel like I want another colorless creature to tutor for in the sideboard from time to time. The obvious candidates are Wurmcoil Engine and Steel Hellkite. I'm not sure if there's any matchup where I really want a Hellkite, but I've been longing for a Wurmcoil quite a few times. Here's the usual scenario: We're under enough pressure that we need to protect our life total. Glacial Chasm is not a good option, either because of Wasteland or maybe because Deathrite Shamans will just tear us appart over the course of two/three turns, even if we find another glimmerpost afterwards. We have access to 13/14 mana and Eye of Ugin (hand, Crop Rotation, in Play, whatever). We can't tutor and play an Eldrazi, or we're in a spot where a Kozilek might just not stabilize us enough. EoT tutor Emrakul is too slow. Being able to grab and play a Wurmcoil Engine would frequently just win the game in these spots. If this sounds like a scenario I just made up, well, I admit that it might sound fairly specialized but it seems to crop up time and time again against Jund or BUG lists, to the point where having a Wurmcoil in the board seems reasonable.
-As an extension of the previous note, I've found Deathrite Shaman to be really quite a nuissance. Glacial Chasm just doesn't stop it and Pithing Needle on Deathrite Shaman isn't that great a play as most of theose decks run abrupt decay anyway. Can anybody think of something clever to solve this problem, or is wiping the board/mass Glimmerpost just the way to go? I never would have expected Deathrite Shaman to be that good a card against our deck, but it's just been giving me a way harder time than I feel it should.
I can't really provide any new or revolutionary insight into matchups, except that I feel that we can gain a lot of edge by people not knowing how to play against our deck. Once bothe sides know what to do in each matchup many games get a lot closer, but there's a lot of opportunities to misplay against us and that makes it pretty attractive for a GP. Besides, it's just an incredibly fun deck to play.
And as a bonus note, I've had to Show and Tell in an Emrakul so I could chump block with it yesterday. I did not win that game. And no, I'm not telling how I ended up in the precarious situation.
By now my considerations about this deck (I'm playing in MTGO for a couple of days testing and improve the deck/ playskill):
1) Oblivion vs. All is Dust.
Oblivion is better IMO. We can play it earlier and activate it using less mana in pool. THIS make a huge difference. Several times I put it into play and opp avoid to play another stuffs, knowing that the destiny of then is go to the grave.
Kill our board? Sensei can be save itself. Destroy Candelabra will not ruin the day. Opp wil ruin if we can't stop the pressure! Oblivion can avoid discard cards. Play it turn 3 and activate it in future is better. I was complaining about Liliana days ago, showing BUG decks that is very hard to beat but OBlivion saved my ass many times that I love it for now.
2) I see another players playing with Post-ramp in MTGO running another threats like Planeswalker Karn and Terastodon. Terastodon is requires a huge playtest against Omni decks. Did anyone see what this mammoth could do?? Bounce Omni with venser?? I would rather destroy it and any opp lands. And also could help against Blood-Moon decks: Show and Tell + Terastodon.
3) I like to avoid Mindbreak Traps against ANT decks. They will put a Silence first and go off =(. Exchange it for Flutterstorms.
Just watching Jonathan Job playing this at Kansas City. What a disappointing play mistake from his opponent. Wastelanded a Glimmerpost instead of Cloudpost/Cloudpost/Tropical Island.
Today I play a 87 player tournament with 7 round of swiss and cut to TOP 8.
I Finish first in the swiss and lost in the quarter finals keeping a mediocre hands.
12 Post
4 Flooded
4 Tropical island
1 Island
1 Bojuka
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial chasm
7 Fatties
2 Trinket mage
4 Sensei's divining top
4 Expedition map
3 Pithing needle
1 Candelabra of tawnos
4 Repeal
4 Crop rotation
3 Show & tell
3 Oblivion stone
********************
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak trap
2 Blue elemental blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Oblivion stone
1 Show & tell
1 Tabernacle
2 Venser
ROUND 1: ANT 1-2
An error with crop rotation makes me lose the first game. In the third game I was at 27 lives with a Primeval titan in play and Mindbreak trap in hand. My opponent was able to get me the 27 points of life through the trap.
ROUND 2: Dredge 2-0 (Without LED)
Bojuka and tabernacle post side make the job.
ROUND 3: Sneak & show 2-1
The first game my oponent start with turno one Show & tell bringing into play a Griselband and me getting a Emrakul GG. I lose to a fast Sneak attack. The third game I control the board with Oblivion stone.
ROUND 4: Belcher 2-1
Game one he wins with Charbelcher. Second game he cast a Empty the warrens for 9 spells, in my turn y crop for Tabernacle and win. Third game, he past the turn without playing anything. I start with an island to play the flusterstorm & blue elemntal blast from my hand.
ROUND 5: Reanimator 2-1
ROUND 6: RUG 2-1
ROUND 7: UWR Tempo 2-0 (My oponent can't draw)
QUARTER FINAL: RUG 1-2 (My round 6 oponente)
In the third game I keep a hand with 2 lands, 1 top, 1 expedition map and more cards. I don't see land with the top and my oponent wastes my lands with the help of Life from the loam.
Opinions:
-I like a lot the trinket mages, 6 top, 6 map, 3 candelabra & 5 pithing...
-Needles and stones do not get along very well, but I have not had many problems with that today.
-The fourth Show & tell vs RUG is very important
-The brainstorms are not necesary, the best use is to defend from discard
-Is very important keeping a hand with 3-4 land against RUG. I don't know what is the best sideboarding against this pairing.
(Sorry for my english)
What to bring in is usually very straight forward. What do you usually take out?Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Removing Show and Tell vs. any deck running Griselbrand (Reanimator, SnT Variants and TinFins) - that's the only real hard rule when boarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Against other decks, there is some flexibility with what you take out. Usual candidates are Expedition Map, extra copies of Candelabra of Tawnos, Kozilek and/or Ulamog, and so forth.
Nah, i wasn`t there )Quote:
Were you the one that needled wasteland vs a maverick in copenhagen? =)
Tho, ofc, i wish i were there and not in the office x_x
First of all, thanks for your post, it is interesting and thought - provoking ( i will try to test some games without trinket mage, but it seems rather nice, comparing to simple artefacts. I mean, its a tutor, and there is a reason, why we do paly tutors - to (surprise) tutor you something relevant, rather than getting something irrelevant from topdeck. And one more shuffle effect cannot be bad (except from Maverick match up)).Quote:
-Sideboard:
This thing is super stock. 4th Show and Tell for the matchups where we just NEED to be quick, Tabernacle and 4th Board Sweeper are also pretty standard. The two Venser are sweet in Show&Tell matchups, against High Tide (sometimes) and Counterbalance. I've been running a 1/1 split for a while but I just don't have room for the 1-of in the maindeck at this point in time. After that, things become a bit less obvious to me.
Do we really want Chalice of the Void? I've never really boarded them against anything besides Storm (which I, admittedly, barely tested so far because noone in our group is a good storm player). Chalice on 1 is suicidal, Chalice on 2 or 3 can be good in some matchups, but are fairly slow, hard to get past the counterspells in those matchups and are hard to find if you board a single Chalice on no Trinket Mages. Basically, this is a singleton hatecard against Storm, and at that rate I just don't think it's worth having. Sure, turning of LEDs makes the life for Storm players quite a bit harder, but it's not good enough to mulligan to, and then a 1-of just doesn't seem to justify the sideboard space. I'd like to replace this with a more widely applicable hatecard.
Do we want 9 or 10 Counterspells in the sideboard? I mean, I fully understand WHY they are there, what matchups we want them for, and why we run the split we actually do. What I am not entirely convinced of yet is that we want ALL of them. I haven't tested much against combo decks yet, and I might completely change my opinion after jamming a dozen of games in the obvious combo matchups, but right now I have a feeling that I only want to have a total of 8 Counterspells in my board. Feel free to weight in on this.
About sideboard - i played a lot against chargebelcher and TES and in my experience you can beat em only in 2 cases - first, they combo into goblins, second, you have an overwhelming amount of counterspells. They wouldnt be a deck, if they would have been easily disrupted by one single counterspell, IMO. SO in my sideboard i tend to have 4 traps, from 2 to 4 flusters and from 2 to 4 spell pierces. That ensures that we will get some at starting hand, which is very important, and we will be able to find more rather quickly. I do not run chalice, tbh, since we can only place it for zero with combo, which, as you said, is kinda lame.
I also side in vensers against TES, since they sometimes can work nice with karakas in play (won me 2 matches).
So is this deck poorly positioned at the moment with jund and combo running rampant? The activity in this thread died overnight.
I don't think the deck is positioned poorly right now. Jund seems to have been a shortlived hype and the numbers being played these days are a lot more reasonable. Their discard suite is annoying to play against but as long as they don't run actual counterspells you can at least try to craft a gameplan. I found BUG lists to be a lot more annoying to play against in playtesting and think the Jund matchup is fairly even overall, depending on your exact build.
To bring some activity back to this thread, I took the list I posted earlier except for -Wurmcoild +Pithing Needle in the board to a 25 man sideevent at a PTQ to get some actual tournament practice in before the GP next week. Went an unexciting 2-3, but learned a lot about the deck so it's a positive experience after all.
R1 vs Esper: 2-0
Nothing to say about this. His deck doesn't have any Wastelands, so this is as close to a Bye as you can get with this deck. He fails to pressure me, I go Titan -> Emrakul and just kill him.
Sideboard: -1 Expedition Map -All is Dust +1 Venser +1 Oblivion Stone
Show and Tell is an excellent counter bait so I'll keep it in for that, I don't really want anything else from the board anyway. I swap the All is Dust for an Oblivion Stone to handle equipment, as he might bring in Sword of Feast and Famine, which is a nuisance, and I keep in sweepers for the postboard Geist of Saint Traft. As I didn't see any Wastelands or Deathrite Shaman I think 3 Pithing Needle are enough to combat Stoneforge as I don't want multiples in this matchup.
G2 he answers my T2 Candelabra with a T3 Geist, so I cast a preemptive Oblivion Stone. He swings for 6, then Vensers my O-Stone. I don't have the mana to save my Candelabra, but I think the board makes it worthwhile to trade it in so I clean things out. I match his Stoneforge with a Primeval Titan and proceed to win the next turn.
R2 vs Wizards?: 1-2
This round I play against a real brew. Blue Wizards with a very light black splash for Bitterblossom and Dark Confidant, Aether Vial, Snapcaster, Riptide Laboratory and some rather unusual choices of Barrin, Master Wizard and Patron Wizard.
G1 he goes Vial into Bitterblosm, Barrin and Patron Wizard. Barrin is right on time to shut off the Show and Tell for Emrakul in my Hand and he Clique's the S&T away on the turn I draw a Primeval Titan. I get stuck on 6 mana so I can't cast my Titan into Patron Wizard, but manage to stick an Expedition Map. I basically have three choices at that point: Grab a Glacial Chasm to stop the Bitterblossom bleeding for a bit, get a Glimmerpost to gain some live and +2 Mana, or get a cloudpost to overpower the Patron Wizard to resolve my Primeval Titan. Chasm seems bad as it shifts me even further from resolving anything meaningful, and I think I just need the mana from Cloudpost at this point in the game. I might have just wanted to grab a Glimmerpost, but that's hard to tell. I proceed to run into Counterspell, Snapcaster Counterspell, Familiar's Ruse returning Snapcaster, Snapcaster Familiar's Ruse returning Snapcaster and, for the final nail in the coffin, Spellstutter Sprite on a Primeval Titan =(
I think there's a line where I can win this game, but I'm just not sure if I can ever break that counterspell wall in this spot, especially as he has Riptide + Clique once his counterspell protection runs out.
Sideboard: I want to keep repeals in as tempo plays on Aether Vial and Confidant, or as a cantrip on Bitterblossom. I make the biggest mistake of the match, boarding out the Ulamog, as he can probably just save whatever permanent I want to destroy with it if he deems it worthwhile, and I don't want to S&T an Eldrazi into play against his deck anyway. -Ulamog -1 Show and Tell -1 Crop Rotation (I've seen too many counterspells to make me want to crop rotate aggressively, so 3 should be fine) +1 Pithing Needle +1 Oblivion Stone + Tabernacle
G2: I manage to tax him with Tabernacle, tempo him with Repeal on both Aether Vial and Dark Confidant and stick a Primeval Titan when he taps out to keep his creatures alive. I didn't see any cards that make me reconsider my sideboarding.
G3: I mull to 6 and he has an aggressive start of Confidant, flipping Jitte, into Clique on my Drawstep, taking away my Show and Tell, leaving me with Tropical, Glimmerpost and Candelabra in play, as well as a Hand of (iirc): Crop Rotation, Primeval Titan, Karakas, Vesuva, Expedition Map (drawn off Clique). His Board + Jitte puts me on a three turn clock even through some Glimmerpost life gain and time is running low in the round, so I make a really stupid mistake: I clearly need to crop rotate for Cloudpost in that spot, but I decide to go for more mana and sacrifice the Karakas instead of trading in my Glimmerpost, which would still give me access to GG4, and in a somewhat sneaky way so I think my opponent might miss that and tap out for Jitte + Equip regardless. Alas, I throw my Karakas in the bin, not bouncing the Clique as I can't afford to lose the Titan. He flips a second Clique on his confidant, equips the Clique and hits me down to 13 as time is called. I draw a top for my turn, resolve the Titan, get a Cloudpost and Eye of Ugin and pass the turn. He flips a land, equips the Confidant and swings. I don't block and go down to 4. I fetch and resolve an Emrakul on Turn 3 of extra turns and find a second candelabra in the top after doing so, but without any mana left to abuse it this turn. Turn 4 of Extra turns he has 3 open mana, and I know of the second clique in his hand. I have a repeal in hand, but that's not enough to get Emrakul to connect, so I search my library for the Ulamog that isn't there (!!!) because I deemed it unnecessary =( I end up going through some contortions, digging as deep down into my library as I can with a fetchland, Kozilek and the top. I end up finding two Oblivion Stones on top, but need to trade my repeal in to get to the second one. He forces the second Oblivion Stone, so I can't put a counter on my Emrakul and blow up his Clique in the attack step anymore and am just not going to win the game this turn. I decide to concede as a friend of mine had a draw that round and we don't really want to play against each other.
I'm sure there is a line with which I can win that game, and if I had Ulamog in my Deck it would even have been easy (Swing with Emrakul, postcombat Ulamog my Emrakul, refetch and play my Emrakul. I have just enough mana to do that). I also shouldn't have crop rotated my Karakas away.
R3 Storm 1-2:
He does a ton of pondering and brainstorming, putting an Underground Sea and Volcanic Island into play so I have a very strong read on storm. My hand has a T5 Titan, but with his hand shaping that's probably too slow. I also have an entirely worthless Pithing Needle in my Hand and a Repeal, so I decide to put it into play so I can cantrip if I ever need to. I decide to try running a bluff and name Lion's Eye Diamond. He picks it up, reads it, then puts it back down, untaps, then rereads the Pithing Needle carefully. He's thinking for a while, thinking some more, then puts it back down and opens on Gitaxian Probe, so I reveal Crop Rotation, Primeval Titan, Repeal, with an open Cloudpost for 2 and a Misty Rainforest. He picks up Pithing Needle and reads it again, and I'm not sure if he realizes I'm on a stone cold bluff in this game. He plays Ponder, double LED, double Petal, casts some rituals and is down to one card in Hand, Storm on 8 and 9 Black Mana in the pool. Then he suddenly tanks for a second and asks to read Crop Rotation again, and goes "oh, it's an instant". He goes in the tank some more and wonders aloud if I had a Bojuka Bog in my Maindeck. After some deliberation he puts Infernal Tutor on the stack. The line for him is clearly Tutor -> Tutor -> Tutor -> Tendrils, which beats Crop Rotation for Glimmerpost and dodges Bojuka Bog versus Past in Flames. Given that he has tanked for a bit and not cracked his LED in response (which he, admittedly, doesn't need to in this spot) I believe that he has figured out how to beat Glimmerpost and Bojuka Bog, so I decide to one up my bluff, fetch a tropical and repeal one of his LEDs. He sighes, murmers "obviously", picks up the LED and searches his library for another copy before passing the turn.
I proceed to Titan -> Emrakul him in a game I had no business winning. Lessons learned: If in doubt, call a judge. And sometimes, the most desperate bluffs can work.
During sideboarding he comments on how Pithing Needle is quite useful in this matchup, to which I comment that "it does some things in it, yes", making sure to avoid stating anything that is technically wrong in the rules. Even if I am allowed to be dishonest about these things, I don't want to come off as a dick after the match so I make sure to phrase the effects of Ptihing Needle ambigously.
I bring in the standard storm hate package, opting not to bring in Venser on the Draw as I think it is a turn too slow. Given how Game 1 went, I make the absolutely idiotic move of bringing in the 4th Pithing Needle, figuring that they can buy me a lot of time if he has to "play around" them, as he needs to get all the lands out of his hand, and has a lot weaker Ad Nauseums as he can't get Tendrils off Infernal Tutor anymore. This is probably wrong, in that even if Pithing Needle DID actually work against LED, you'd probably still not want them post board. I take out the repeals as it takes too much to go right for me to make them do the same thing again. He accidentally flashes a Chain of Vapors while shuffling, so he either fears I have Leylines or he is that afraid of Pithing Needle.
G2 I mull to a 5 with Flusterstorm, Top and Tropical Island but get killed before I can even play my land.
G3 I swap two needles for the two Venser and keep a 7 of Tropical, Vesuva, Top, Titan, Show and Tell, Flusterstorm, Mindbreaktrap.
I make the mistake of thinking that MBT keeps me safe on T1 and decide to play out the Top so I can dig towards S&T with Flusterstorm Backup a turn quicker, which is, in retrospect, and absolutely ridiculously terrible play. He goes USea -> Duress for MBT, then goes petal, ritual, ritual, Ad Nauseum for an easy kill. That's what I get for not testing the matchup much, and I have learned my lesson now.
R4 Cabal Coffers Black 2-0
This was a brew that was pretty bad even for casual budget levels of play. I bounce his Phyrexian Obliterator 7 times in G2 with Venser, and that's the only thing worth noting about this game.
R5 Mono U Omniscience 1-2
He opens on Island, EOT Brainstorm (I cringe), into fetchland for Island, Grim Monolith. Him fetching for basic Island makes me put him on Hive Mind, so I adjust my play just slightly to make sure I can at least pay for blue and green pacts. I repeal the Monolith, he replays the Monolith then Show and Tells me the turn after. I have Emrakul and Primeval Titan in Hand and decide to put in the Titan to make sure I can grab the mana to pay for two pacts the following turn. There is no advantage to dropping Emrakul in this Spot, or can anybody think of anything? He reveals Omniscience and the Titan trigger goes on the stack. I spend a moment considering grabbing Glacial Chasm in case he is on Petals/Grapeshot, but decide to grab two Cloudposts in case he fizzles. He goes Enter the Infinite into Emrakul Ulamog for the win.
SB: -3 Pithing Needle -4 Repeal -3 Show and Tell, +4 Flusterstorm +3 MBT +1 Oblivion Stone +2 Venser
G2 I get into a very interesting position where I have a top in play, an O-Stone on top of my deck, a crop rotation and a flusterstorm in my hand and Tropical Island, Tropical Island, Glimmerpost, Cloudpost in play when he taps out for Dream Halls with 4 cards in hand. I am fairly certain he has at least one counterspell to protect himself. If I flusterstorm the Dream Halls I am out of protection, and even the Oblivion Stone doesn't protect me very well at that point as he will have 6 or 7 mana the next turn/time he goes off and I don't really have a plan for victory at the time as I haven't seen a Primeval Titan yet. If I let the Dream Halls resolve I lose to exactly Flusterstorm, Enter the Infinite, and two blue cards, but if he goes for it I can severely punish him in this spot. After some deliberation I decide to let Dream Halls resolve, and after some deliberation on my opponents end, he decides to simply pass the turn, so it's on me to do something now. As Flusterstorm is dead the next turn, I decide to trade my top in for the O-Stone and Crop rotate a Tropical Island into Cloudpost. He Flusterstorms, pitching Spell Pierce and I Flusterstorm back. Crop Rotation resolves and I proceed to O-Stone his Dream Halls on my turn as I have to now, having fallen into the trap I was trying to set up for my opponent, naturally drawing the Titan I can no longer cast. He bricks just as hard, making some land drops, and going ponder -> shuffle. I draw Primeval Titan, Repeal (with no nonland permanents in play), Cloudpost, Vesuva (copying Tropical). I then draw Emrakul and have the exact 15 to cast him. My opponent is on 15 exactly from ancient tomb and 3 fetchlands so I win on the spot.
G3 I keep a hand of double flusterstorm, expedition map, 2 land, Titan, Ulamog. I completely brick on drawing land or relevant spells, Flusterstorm two Show and Tell and die to a T5 Dream Halls.
I'm satisfied with how the deck went, not necessarily with my lines of play all the time. I feel I have enough fighting power in the combo matchups and a good edge in the fair matchups. I still don't miss trinket mage or brainstorm. I am not entirely sold on the BEB in the sideboard, as I am not quite sure what I want to bring them in for. Sneak Attack, Blood Moon and what else? I can't really think of anything else I could use them for. The maindeck Show and Tell are also a bit underwhelming and I am considering moving them to the board for the pithing needle and venser. It might just be that I am incredibly hesitant to S&T an Eldrazi into play and that's why they feel a bit lackluster to me. Pithing Needle wasn't that strong today, but I didn't face any Wasteland decks so there's that. I failed to draw any in the wizards matchup that they would have been insane in. Not sure on the 4th Pithing Needle in the board either, so that slot is still open. I might make some minor changes, but I like the list enough to run it at GP Strassbourg, though probably not to a good finish. Mostly because I lack experience playing the deck, the list is clearly strong enough for a top 64 finish at a GP.
You can't Flusterstorm Dream Halls, it's an enchantment.Quote:
Originally Posted by LLCoolDave