[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

I don't think 2 Jitte is random in a build packing 15 threats (3 Jotun Grunt or Rotting Giant for more consistency) ala. what Anarky runs. Angel may not be the best solution. But this deck does indeed need more fat threats that stick around, Wretch isn't fat and Grunt doesn't stick around. I would of course run 3-4 Grunt in the side versus thres, but I really think that this deck needs a more stable threat.

I don't think 1 or even 2 Tomb of Urami hurts that much.

And we already know what this deck is losing to... any deck that packs bigger threats than 2/2s ala. Angel Stompy, Fairie Stompy, Zilla Stompy etc.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

And we already know what this deck is losing to... any deck that packs bigger threats than 2/2s ala. Angel Stompy, Fairie Stompy, Zilla Stompy etc.

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Or Madness, or Red Death, or Stompy, or basically any resolved threat. This deck has really failed to do anything. I've seen it played in reasonable numbers and it hasn't made a recent Top8 in the US since like April of this year and that was only 1 spot. This decks lack of ability to beat creature-based decks is a virtual death knell for it. Would you run this deck in a real tournament knowing that you can't beat over 30% of the field?

Honestly, I think this deck lost something when it lost Gerrard's Verdicts-hymns 5 and 6 were just that good IMHO. Not that it would make any matchups better besides combo, but just for the sake of card consistancy.

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Originally Posted by AnwarA101

Or Madness, or Red Death, or Stompy, or basically any resolved threat. This deck has really failed to do anything. I've seen it played in reasonable numbers and it hasn't made a recent Top8 in the US since like April of this year and that was only 1 spot. This decks lack of ability to beat creature-based decks is a virtual death knell for it. Would you run this deck in a real tournament knowing that you can't beat over 30% of the field?

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Basically QFT. My big problem with Deadguy has always been that it's a metagame deck that doesn't really win in the metagame it's designed to win in. Take Angel Stompy for instane. It was designed to beat everything that wins with creatures, and it does a very, very good job of that. Deadguy is basically designed to do the opposite, win versus combo and control. It fails in two respects. One, aggro and aggro-control are more prevelant right now than combo and control. This looks like it's changing, but not drastically enough for metagamed anti-combo decks yet. Second, and perhaps much more important, Deadguy doesn't beat combo and control very well. Where Angel Stompy does an amazing job at beating the metagame that it was designed to beat (creatures,) Deadguy too oft randomly loses no matter what it's playing.

In short, it's a metagame deck that doesn't fare very well against the metagame for which it was designed, which bares little resemblance to our current metagame.

I don't know what deck you're referening but this deck does indeed beat combo and control.

You're right that aggro is it's death knell when the disruption doesn't come through just perfectly though. But I think it's an easy problem to fix... a nice big creature that sticks around as a 3 of, along with 2 Jitte. That's 5 cards that other aggro decks have a very uphill battle against. The deck already has many tools to take out opponent's removal, so keeping one of these 5 cards in play isn't that big an issue. The deck can also play 2 MD Swords and 1-2 Tomb of Urami for additional anti aggro. The issue is to find that 3 of creature. I wanted that creature to be Angel, but people do have a good point that WW is hard to come by even with a dramatic increase in the number of fetches.

So we're just waiting around till Wizards printed a powerful undercosted creature in black. Till then I am running either Rotting Giant or Spectral Lynx as the 3 of. Neither creature fulfills the role perfectly, but it's a step in the right direction I am convinced, and gives us something more to stick a Jitte onto.

On a completely unrelated note, I was wondering if any of you thought Forbidding Watchtower could find a place as 1 of or 2 of in this deck. Odd thought I know. But effectively neutralizes one of your opponent's biggest threat, be it a Werebear or something similar. And unlike Maze of Ith, it can actually serve as a mana source when you want it to. It does eat up quite a bit of mana though so probably not. God I wish Spawing Pool was a half way decent card.

I can't see how it's been so "horrible":

8th Place- D4D February
7th Place- Kadilak's DLD
5th AND 6th- Iserlohn June tourney
7th- Aschaffenburg, Germany Championships

The deck is still placing. The only decks having a better run than this currently this year are the ones in the LMF. How does this make this deck so horrible, when obviously Germany lately has done better with it (with much larger player base by average, I might add), than the US has? Their metagame isn't complete shit, for one. People have a diversity of decks to play against, rather than just seeing Solidarity, Thresh, Goblins, and Angel Stompy. It would seem very apparent that when there's more than just LMF and almost LMF material, this deck does better. Check out the top 8 when this deck places, it's not just top 3 decks + random Deadguy, or complete jank + Deadguy. It's holding up against a lot of diversity, because it's nearly an impossible deck to hate against, and still relatively under the threat radar.

Not every aggro deck out there smashes this deck, otherwise it wouldn't hit T8 anywhere. Most of the field is aggro, barely anyone runs Combo, and there's no such thing as total control decks, short of the occasional BBS or Landstill decks here and there. Angel Control is up there as well.

With that said, let's continue on with what the deck's doing. In my build, I haven't killed off Verdict at all, in fact I've replaced 2 Wastelands with 2 more copies. I play 12 maindeck disruption, as well as SB StP to go along with Vindicate to hit resolved threats, which could very well come into the maindeck in place of my other 2 Wasteland and a Cursed Scroll's. Still trying to get a good setup to playtest against to see how this method does. I still REALLY like the idea of Grunt, but am torn on what to cut.

As for what is "beating" this deck, I'm personally saying specific threats, things that there's literally no answer to. Chump block, StP, Cursed Scroll, Vindicate, Shade, and now Grunt...that's PLENTY of answers to a resolved threat. Obviously 30% of the meta isn't beating 2 toughness, or else this deck wouldn't have even put up T8 results, especially next to decks we have in the LMF. We don't scoop to any specific thing resolving, there's always a chance to pull something or race it.

Here's things I've noted the deck doesn't like: Mystic Enforcer, Meddling Mage, Exalted Angel, Humility, Lightning Rift, Eternal Dragon, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear (only after thresh), and on the rare occasions we see it, a few of the Survival creatures (Titan, Troll, for examples).

Out of these creatures, Mystic Enforcer, Troll, and Nimble Mongoose are the ONLY things we have serious problems with (untargetable via black spells). Enchantments can be Vindicated. Eternal Dragon, Werebear, Mystic Enforcer, Mage, Angel.........all can be hit by StP. Nimble, and Troll are the only things that can't be removed for good.

Looking over the list of creatures we need to deal with, is exactly why I decided it was a good idea to look into Mutilate. Chances are when a Mystic resolves that's going to be Thresh'd, we'll be close to 6 swamps. With a heavy enough base of discard and destruction, Mutilate would have a very good chance of going off. This answers the entire field around turns 5-6, as no creatures have defense against it. Untargetable, pro black....you name it, it's gone. This is the best thing we have to a black Wrath of God. Nothing has a toughness over 6. If it does, we're probably going to die to that creature anyways, regardless of if we could target it.

Here's another something I was looking into, especially when running against aggro metas, and heavier on creatures: Mortivore. 4cc, a reputable curve number, can regenerate (good for chumping), and gets continuously bigger the more we can kill off, or let die. Against Goblins, he'd be a beast. Vs random U/G/x decks, he'd have relatively good consistent numbers, and would force an StP (saving Shade).

Again, the big thing is changing while still keeping itself "cheap". Something that regenerates, protection aspect, a solid toughness, first strike.....all are good things. We just need to figure out what we want 4 of to make a difference.

Mortivore really seems like a win more type of card.

It's worthless against combo (as is mutilate) and control, and is only good against aggro after you managed to take out a bunch of your opponents threats, not before.

But regardless, I really like the direction you guys are pursueing.

A solid fat beatstick may be just what this deck needs. Mortivore is unfortunately dead far too often, nuked by graveyard hate, and worthless early on and against nonaggro matchups.

But perhaps something like Jozum Djinn (Or Phyrexian Scuta) could work well.

Man, the looks on people's faces once they see a Juzam played in Legacy for the first time in..........what like 10 years? I'd almost cough up the $400 just to get a deckset of those bad boys so I could toss them out at people's faces.

I'm doing a full Gatherer search for black or white creatures that have at least a healthy body size (4/4 or greater), with minimal drawbacks. I'll come back to this post later with what I've found.

I have done the same thing. I didn't come up with very much except Juzam as you said.. Well there is Grinning Demon which is 4cc but has a huge body.

I don't like the phyrexian negator at all, not worth mentioning.

Just MD Jotun grunt, he hoses entire decks on his own, and is very supportable with all the disruption this deck runs. He stops aggro rushes with his huge 4/4 body, doesn't die to burn...what more do you want for two mana?

I want a threat that goes through Chalice @ 1, Chalice @ 2 in the sideboard.

And a Cursed Scroll that just taps to activate. As well as a less mana-intensive Nantuko Shade.

I'm thinking about trying Djinn over MWS instead of Shade and seeing what happens. If anything overly interesting happens I'll post it up.

cards like Juzam:
Kezzerdrix
Phyrexian Scuta
Phyrexian Nigator

Ok. This is probably going to sound stupid but have you guys play tested with Paralyze? I used it in a Legacy about a year ago and it's pretty good. If you pull it off early, chances are that the opponent is not going to pay 4 any time soon to untap a 1-2 cc creature. Late game is a little worthless other than the fact that you get to tap a chump blocker but what do you expect from a 1c black card?

It's really hard to help out this deck because of its complexity. Like people don't know what to sideboard in for it, the same goes for people don't know how to make the deck any better (or fix it). Faith's Fetters would be nice but it costs too much.

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Originally Posted by Team-Hero

cards like Juzam:
Kezzerdrix
Phyrexian Scuta
Phyrexian Nigator

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Kezzerdrix isn't a bad choice, but Juzam is still the best option at a 5/5 (kills anything short of a Mystic Enforcer). This deck can't afford to run Negator, since there's no burn element to clear a path(such as Red Death). Scuta is an investment that lets the opponent glorify its death.

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Originally Posted by Team-Hero

but what do you expect from a 1c black card?

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To let me see their hand, pick the best card out of it, and throw it in their graveyard....err...I mean Duress. Either way it can't get rid of a Nimble Mongoose. I'd rather have Darkblast, which can actually remove turn 1 (targetable, mind you) threats.

The problem is that against creatures (goblins, elves, whatever) this deck just have too many dead cards in mid-game: dark ritual, hymn, duress, gerrard's verdict, even sinkhole and hypno are quite bad against fast creatures.

Of course it's a strong meta call, but when the goblins are running rampant even 2 maindeck engineered plagues don't help. There should be some way to catch'em when you need'em and maybe there is room for a tutor or two instead of 2 duress?

Kezzerdrix seems interesting, but once I've finally cleared the board of dudes on my opponents side, the thought of me then taking 4-7 damage to the dome every turn isn't exciting. Scuta isn't all that bad, but if it's off a Confidant, you'll be paying 7 life just to get him in play. But, it's still a 5/5 for 4 which isn't easily dealt with outside of StP. And even then, you gain two more life than the initial investment of 3. Djinn is the overall best option as he's a big beater for a small amount with a very minimal drawback.

Scuta and Djinn seem like the best options for 'big' creatures in my opinion. There's no way I'm going to be able to afford Djinn's anytime soon and Scuta seems rather 'meh.' I'm not really sure though, I'm still gonna mess around with the regular creature base a little longer as I'm not really having too much trouble with it.

On a side note, I split for first again last night, but it's really not worth mentioning, as NOTHING remotely good showed up. And this deck beats up on random jank pretty well. Round 1 was against some U/W/g Hippo/Honden/Confinement deck (This is why I hate where I live), which I beat both games and left with 0 lands in play. Round 2 I played some sub-par Zombie deck, meh, 2-0'd him. Round 3 was against an Affinity build that apparently the guy playing thought he could make better by taking out the good Affinity cards and replacing them with Slagwurm Armor...Yeah...2-0. Then I was the only undefeated player (duh) so I didn't have to play in the semi finals, and I would have played the Hippo deck again, but he said he would split (Because he'd get smashed again), so we each got $15 in store credit. Usually we get at least some decks that are at least decent like Iggy-Pop and Ravager Affinity. Not last night I guess...I was supposed to go a couple towns over to a more competitive tournament, but a 5 page paper and a test today said otherwise. So I stayed home and made an easy $15.

The problem with Jotun Grunt is that it doesn't stay in play too long, not long enough to abuse Jitte. The whole idea for a big threat came from seeing how incredible a 4/4 was in this deck, but wishing ever so often that the 4/4 actually stayed in play.

I would NOT replace Shades with Djinn as someone above advocated. The main reason for the 4cc threat is to bring the threat count up to 15 like Anarky's build, but have all the threats be able to stay in play so that you can replace the Cursed Scrolls with the far superior Jitte.

I think Djinn, and to a much lesser extent Scuta and Grinning Demon are the best options we have. Demon just hates getting chumped, Scuta abhores getting killed, and I can't afford Djinn.

So until the DCI prints a halfway decent black or white or gold threat that only has a single W in it's casting cost, I'll make due with running 3 Rotting Giant and wishing they were Djinn. Giant is really good against Goblins though, and if paired with a Jitte is an absolute bomb even against nongoblins aggro decks. But Djinn would be a bomb with or without a Jitte in play.

Hey guys, long time shadow lurker, but first time posting...obviously. Nice to meet you all.

After reading all these posts, I noticed people saying that it loses to big creatures found in decks such as Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, etc. On a personal note, I found out after playing with this on MWS, that once something like a SSS or an angel hits the board, I die more often than not. Since most, if not all (depending on negator build), of the creatures in the deck are small, would something like Retribution of the Meek work? Or Perish/ Virtue's Ruin? Was thinking along the lines of hunted horror + perish or forced march for 0. Or even a sunscour (obviously using the alt casting cost) and then laying down the quick threats? Maybe these ideas are leading into a different direction or too expensive?

I've actually tested all of those at one point. The -problem- with Retribution of the Meek is that it doesn't hit much outside of Exalted Angel, Sea Drake, Werebear, and Mystic Enforcer. While these are all certainly worthwhile threats, the former two are generally the only power 4+ creatures in their decks (Excluding SOFI pumps), and there's a fair chance you'll be stuck holding Retribution while they beat you down with Silver Knight / Serendib Efreet respectively. The latter two are both hit by Perish. If Retribution said "3 or greater" instead of "4 or greater", i'd run it. But not quite as it is now.

Makes one wonder if Meekstone has a place in this deck, though. Meekstone's incredibly easy to cast, comes in off a Ritual combined with Hymn/Sinkhole/Wretch/Shade/etc, and is a dynamite replacement for something like Cursed Scroll, which can generally handle anything Meekstone can't (Except for like, 2/3's) and vice versa. Shade gets around Meekstone beautifully.

Perish and the ever underrated Virtue's Ruin are both solid Sideboard options, if you can fit them in alongside Plague and STP and whatever else. Personally, however, I've been having a lot better luck merging Perish and Virtue's Ruin into Dystopia. My current quandary, however, is that Dystopia hits my own Jotun Grunts, which is making me lean back towards the more reliable Withered Wretch. Between Dystopia, Plague, and STP in board, I feel pretty equipped to handle hordes of large creatures, and I'm tempted to see if I can squeeze in a couple Meekstones now.

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Originally Posted by GamerSmurf

Hey guys, long time shadow lurker, but first time posting...obviously. Nice to meet you all.

After reading all these posts, I noticed people saying that it loses to big creatures found in decks such as Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, etc. On a personal note, I found out after playing with this on MWS, that once something like a SSS or an angel hits the board, I die more often than not. Since most, if not all (depending on negator build), of the creatures in the deck are small, would something like Retribution of the Meek work? Or Perish/ Virtue's Ruin? Was thinking along the lines of hunted horror + perish or forced march for 0. Or even a sunscour (obviously using the alt casting cost) and then laying down the quick threats? Maybe these ideas are leading into a different direction or too expensive?

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As a rule of thumb, threats are always better than answers.

If you want more of an explanation, all the cards you listed are only good against those matchups that we are talking about. They are useless against combo and control. They also don't increase your own threat count and thus don't enable you to play Jitte over Cursed Scroll. I think the best bet is to stick with testing a creature like Juzam Djinn.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

As a rule of thumb, threats are always better than answers.

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Originally Posted by Quicksilver

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Originally Posted by David Price

There are wrong answers, but there are no wrong threats.

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I think I am forced to agree.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Makes one wonder if Meekstone has a place in this deck, though. Meekstone's incredibly easy to cast, comes in off a Ritual combined with Hymn/Sinkhole/Wretch/Shade/etc, and is a dynamite replacement for something like Cursed Scroll, which can generally handle anything Meekstone can't (Except for like, 2/3's) and vice versa. Shade gets around Meekstone beautifully.

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The really sick part? I was putting my Winter Orbs back in my Revised last night and saw Meekstone, thought "This would be awesome in Deadguy because it shuts off alpha striking with creatures Deadguy can't handle, but, alas, goblins don't care about it." and dismissed it. Tivitar's Crusade would be awsome here, if we could get to WW easier (I run 8 fetches and still sometimes have a problem getting one white mana), as Plague has been made obsolete by Dralnu's Crusade.

I've been running Perish and Virtue's Ruin in my SB to some pretty good success. The problem I've had in the past with Dystopia is that it's only hitting one creature at a time. I suppose that's ok against decks that rely on only 2-3 green creatures to win the game (Thresh), but I've also had people just continue to play out another creature and then beat in. That's why I've been enjoying just sweeping the board of whatever color is ailing me. My board at the moment is pretty much just global hating.

3 Perish (Hate on Green)
3 Virtue's ruin (Hate on White)
3 Infest (Been running this over Plague due to the absence of Goblins)
2 Swords to Plowshare (Might cut 1)
2 Serenity (Almost wanting 3 in here, it just seems that good)
2 Warmth (Random Burn and other red related whatnot)

As per Clark Kant's reply, I can see the statement of "...threats are always better than answers." in 2 ways. But thinking about that, and the aforementioned cards would almost be, if not completely, worthless against combo. Would a SB of True Believer vs combo or a forcefield against bigger threats work? I've tried the forcefield, and it seemed to work against the bigger creatures, but come against goblins or a mongoose and the like, its virtually pointless. I've even gone as far as using zombie infestations to rid my hands of seemingly dead cards and to just put more pressure on the opponent with a fairly good success. I have yet to try out the meekstone idea, but I'll make sure i try that next. Maybe my concept/ knowledge of the finer details of this deck are off, but with guidance and some feedback, I hope to gain as much as I hope to contribute to this deck and board. Ciao !

I actually did some playtesting with the following list:

Deadguy Ale v1.2 (my second modified version of this)

Manabase: 24
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine
9 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

Creatures: 16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Withered Wretch (just for the last 2 cards I couldn't decide on, I didn't want only 2 Wasteland MD)

Disruption: 20
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

SB:
4 Mutilate/Cursed Scrolls (to test viability against random aggro)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Withered Wretch
3 E. Plague
2 (missing....due to Wretch's being split between maindeck and SB)

I played about 15 games last night, all against a pretty typical Raffinity deck, just to see what a fast aggro deck with no control elements can do.

Sad to say, Affinity vs my build was not even a matchup. His maindeck vs mine was hitting probably 80/20 in his favor. The pure speed of an aggro deck that can just win in the middle of combat coupled with a possible combo outlet via Rav+Disciple is nothing short of the best matchup vs this deck.

Post sideboard, I found that Mutilate shined like mad in this deck, especially going along with StP. Nearly every time I cast Mutilate it was a 4-for-1, one time I even hit a 5-for-1 taking otu 3 of his creatures and 2 Glimmervoids. Jotun Grunt loved that.

Current thought process: Mutilate is a must in sideboard. Stuff that hurts some of our bad matchups like Thresh, Raffinity, and other random aggro/aggro control are too selective. Mutilate easily does the same thing, and typically will kill off some things otherwise left behind. Never was I short of the 4 swamps when casting it, and it never hit less than 3 creatures on the opponents side of the board, to a maximum of 2 of mine.

Jotun Grunt, absolute garbage without something like Jitte or Sword of Fire/Ice to back him up. If you can't kill their creatures fast enough, or pack high enough disruption, he won't survive that 3rd upkeep counter. Trust me, I was throwing cards in the graveyard on both our sides, but hitting 12 by turn 5, that's a bit farfetched. Typically he swings twice, and dies.

In this particular instance, and I know the same goes for Goblins and R/G aggro decks, Nantuko Shade shined. Following a Mutilate, he's pretty much guaranteed to beat out anything your opponent will drop, because he'll typically swing for 7+ next turn.

So at this rate, I may end up testing the Jitte. Taking out the 2 Wretch back to SB and putting them in the place, 14 creatures SHOULD prove useful enough to pack this, and after seeing all the rediculousness I could have been pulling against Goblins and Raffinity with that card, I see that it could quite possibly pull wins vs Thresh as well.

12 Disruption + 8 Land destruction: A solid number between the two. Against Raffinity, I wished I had Wasteland, but at the same time, it's not really much of a question against the remainder of the field, as they pack many more basics than Raffinity does (at 0). I could easily change the deck back to -2 Swamp -2 Verdict +4 Wasteland, so testing that will also come about.

Still, the Grunt seems to be a viable card, though Rotting Giant is seeming stronger for the staying power. Grunt + Jitte should pack good speed, and Grunt is way more useful than Giant later in the game (mainly because he can last more than 2-3 turns), and getting a Jitte on a Confidant or Hyppie seemed to be worth possibly losing them in a battle.

I've pretty much completely lost interest in Cursed Scroll. It's good, being colorless damage, a good early drop, and recurring, but it's just too damn slow, and not enough damage late game to kill off threats.

As for combo, I still need to test that out. I think this build will be much more viable, as it has 7 good sized beaters + 12 Hand Disruption + 8 Land Destruction spells. That seems really good against both Solidarity and IGGY Pop.

I think that the logic that there are never wrong threats was debunked a while ago. The entire problem with this deck is that it's full of wrong threats; it's guys can't really beat up on any other deck's guys in the entire format. Goblins will overwhelm you and pinpoint destroy creatures, whereas Thresh and whateverStompy's bigger, better equipped creatures will stomp over yours. As an aggro deck, the archetype seems to fail again and again when running up against other aggro decks; it's strictly worse in this regards than Red Death, basically. I think it's time to consider how to make either the aggro or the control part of this aggro-control deck stronger. You could try actually testing cutting some of your current disruption suite for creature- hate, losing either LD or discard, or some combination thereof. -4 Sinkhole, -4 Wasteland, -4 Vindicate for +2 Color-producing land, +4 StP, +3 additional threats, +3 Jitte, for instance. Or, if you're like Pikula and just like destroying lands, lose the Hymns and Duresses. As the deck plays right now, it's Threshold at Sorcery speed with less optimization and no line of text on your creatures that begins "Threshold-".

The problem is this isn't an aggro control deck. The creatures are just as much utility as they are damage, typically more utility. This is the main reason people can't call this Suicide Black anymore, we lost the suicide build when we put in white for control elements. The way it's built now is more along the lines of a slow control deck, that's not very good at keeping control, because the format gets past it's two key elements: discard and land destruction. After the first few turns, both LD and HD start losing their effectiveness, mainly because the solid decks in the format are all stabilizing at the same time we are.

None of the creatures have shadow. Even if any did, they'd be useless without backup, or mostly dead (because the "good" shadow creatures all have 2 or less toughness). This makes the core of Sui useless here. Also, we've come to the conclusion Negator is pretty bad here, because unlike Red Death, our removal of resolved creatures is usually clunky or too mana intensive to support him swinging every turn, and our permanent count isn't that high either.

Looking over our lists of "threats" through Gatherer, it honestly comes down to Grunt or Juzam/Grinning Demon for our beatsticks, in addition to the Shade. The Juzam vs Demon may need to be tested though, as 6 usually = a 3 turn clock now, with pretty much every deck playing a minimum of 4 fetchlands, and 5 would still most likely be 4 turns. However, in a slow game, that additional life loss coupled with Bob may be bad.

If we went with this style, I'd advocate putting in more creature destruction maindeck, and taking out some of our disruption.

This may be the new way to go with the deck.

Here's a build I've been testing out recently:

Lands
4 Wasteland (I actually tested 3-Waste 1-Stronghold-build but noticed that the problem isn't really getting a guy to stick, it's getting a guy, period)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Scrubland (I play Tomb and Grunt, hence I really want my white mana and I don't like mana instabilities, so I play 4/4/4 Scrub/Mire/Delta to get it with some consistency)
2 Swamp

Creatures
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Jotun Grunt (experimental card #1, I find it to be awesome here, it usually sticks around long enough to pay for itself and against graveyard-strategies, it's naturally great)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bane of the Living (experimental card #2, I was analysing the list and came to the conclusion that Nantuko Shade is a problem-card since it has no role other than to beat, so I'm testing a sweeper-creature in its stead. So far, I haven't run any actual testing, just played it on MWS and the MWS-players don't like their creature-decks for a reason or another so I haven't really gotten to test it out. The fact that it's a 2/2 when Morphed is a problem, but the fact that it can be blown for 2 and it still survives makes it awesome for killing Goblins. I'm also considering Masticore, but I like how cheaply this guy can sweep the board and also be a legimate beatstick against combo)

Spells
3 Funeral Charm (experimental card #3, I try to attack the opponent's hand so just discarding a card is great as I can then go for the throat with Hymns and Verdicts to empty him. Also a Lackey-answer, a clock-speeder and occasionally allows me to 1-for-2 with a big guy (which is better than having 'em go about unanswered))
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress (only 2 to have less dead cards game 1 against a lot of decks and because of the fact that in Type 1.5, the card power doesn't fluctuate as widely as in T1, so nailing a specific card isn't quite as necessary that often)
2 Cursed Scroll (I've found 'em awesome still, clock combined with repeatable removal=superb against both, control and aggro. I actually played a mirror where my opponent played Jitte and I played Scroll. I won the game through equipped Jitte as I got the second Scroll active and just went to the town. The amount of artifact-removal and Needles is still surprisingly low MD)
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Chrome Mox (experimental card #4, I really like the fact that it allows turn 1 Sinkhole on the draw without Ritual. I can also occasionally pitch Ritual to it in a mana-heavy hand. I really find this card heavily underused in the format, I think it gives this particular deck just the added speed it needs to make its disruption effective in this format)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Gerrard's Verdict (I like the added mass discard, helps Grunt and all that)

Sideboard
1 Jotun Grunt (duh)
1 Funeral Charm (I want 8 1-cost removal-spells, 4 Plagues, 2 Scrolls and beats against Goblins. Comes in also against combo or control if I have nothing better)
2 Duress (duh)
4 Swords to Plowshares (duh)
4 Engineered Plague (1-shot removal just isn't enough against Goblins, I find the permanent removal from Plague to be the best shot)
3 Serenity (artifact- and enchantment-removal of choice for me. Blows up Moxes, too bad, but I want to have an answer to those random Stax- and Affinity-decks that are around, as well as to Survival, Humility, Scepter, etc.)


The build is just to test a few cards, I really like where it's going though. I'm very happy with Moxes here, the deck makes up for the lost cards the first Hymn or Verdict it casts and if I can manascrew the opponent, all the better. Also has a decent removal suite even before board. Then again, I haven't gotten to test it thoroughly enough to really say anything conclusive. I might want an additional land though, the deck is very manahungry and 1-landers are almost invariably unkeepable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Here's a build I've been testing out recently:

Lands
4 Wasteland (I actually tested 3-Waste 1-Stronghold-build but noticed that the problem isn't really getting a guy to stick, it's getting a guy, period)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Scrubland (I play Tomb and Grunt, hence I really want my white mana and I don't like mana instabilities, so I play 4/4/4 Scrub/Mire/Delta to get it with some consistency)
2 Swamp

Creatures
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Jotun Grunt (experimental card #1, I find it to be awesome here, it usually sticks around long enough to pay for itself and against graveyard-strategies, it's naturally great)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bane of the Living (experimental card #2, I was analysing the list and came to the conclusion that Nantuko Shade is a problem-card since it has no role other than to beat, so I'm testing a sweeper-creature in its stead. So far, I haven't run any actual testing, just played it on MWS and the MWS-players don't like their creature-decks for a reason or another so I haven't really gotten to test it out. The fact that it's a 2/2 when Morphed is a problem, but the fact that it can be blown for 2 and it still survives makes it awesome for killing Goblins. I'm also considering Masticore, but I like how cheaply this guy can sweep the board and also be a legimate beatstick against combo)

Spells
3 Funeral Charm (experimental card #3, I try to attack the opponent's hand so just discarding a card is great as I can then go for the throat with Hymns and Verdicts to empty him. Also a Lackey-answer, a clock-speeder and occasionally allows me to 1-for-2 with a big guy (which is better than having 'em go about unanswered))
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress (only 2 to have less dead cards game 1 against a lot of decks and because of the fact that in Type 1.5, the card power doesn't fluctuate as widely as in T1, so nailing a specific card isn't quite as necessary that often)
2 Cursed Scroll (I've found 'em awesome still, clock combined with repeatable removal=superb against both, control and aggro. I actually played a mirror where my opponent played Jitte and I played Scroll. I won the game through equipped Jitte as I got the second Scroll active and just went to the town. The amount of artifact-removal and Needles is still surprisingly low MD)
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
2 Chrome Mox (experimental card #4, I really like the fact that it allows turn 1 Sinkhole on the draw without Ritual. I can also occasionally pitch Ritual to it in a mana-heavy hand. I really find this card heavily underused in the format, I think it gives this particular deck just the added speed it needs to make its disruption effective in this format)
4 Dark Ritual
2 Gerrard's Verdict (I like the added mass discard, helps Grunt and all that)

Sideboard
1 Jotun Grunt (duh)
1 Funeral Charm (I want 8 1-cost removal-spells, 4 Plagues, 2 Scrolls and beats against Goblins. Comes in also against combo or control if I have nothing better)
2 Duress (duh)
4 Swords to Plowshares (duh)
4 Engineered Plague (1-shot removal just isn't enough against Goblins, I find the permanent removal from Plague to be the best shot)
3 Serenity (artifact- and enchantment-removal of choice for me. Blows up Moxes, too bad, but I want to have an answer to those random Stax- and Affinity-decks that are around, as well as to Survival, Humility, Scepter, etc.)


The build is just to test a few cards, I really like where it's going though. I'm very happy with Moxes here, the deck makes up for the lost cards the first Hymn or Verdict it casts and if I can manascrew the opponent, all the better. Also has a decent removal suite even before board. Then again, I haven't gotten to test it thoroughly enough to really say anything conclusive. I might want an additional land though, the deck is very manahungry and 1-landers are almost invariably unkeepable.

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Interesting list. Bane of the Living certainly does help out. He also kills goose, granted he goes down too, but at least you can sweep them off. I used funeral charm in my pox deck when I played it at Philly, and oh man, that card is sooooooo sweet against Goblins. It can either 1. Rip a card from hand, 2. Kill Lacky, or 3. Help in the mirror when it comes to doing those last points of combat damage. Chrome Mox is an interesting choice too. The extra speed seems to outweigh the card disadvantage for this deck thanks to Bob. It seems like a solid list. Jotun Grunt seems kind of automatic since he's currently the hottest card in this format. Tell us how you do with it.

Feeling slightly retarded for forgetting to look at artifact creatures when looking over possible beatsticks, Masticore might just be a really useful addition. At worst he's 4 for a 4/4, which is still solid. If there's no Needle's, he becomes instant speed spot removal, and an eternal blocker. He just might be the 2 card replacement for my Cursed Scrolls that went SB.

As for Wasteland, I'm still not completely sold on them. The only decks so far that they've been good against have been Affinity and on occasion Thresh, and to be honest, they're really not good against either of those. Your helping Thresh achieve it's goal, and not slowing it down nearly enough without hitting them with Sinkhole and Vindicate to keep them off 2-3 mana for a while, and Affinity really just doesn't care. The only thing I ever really kept my opponent from casting when hitting Affinity's lands was Cranial Plating, and honestly it was merely just buying time, I was hardly in control of that matchup, ever.

Tomb and Stronghold I'm still working on playtesting, though I think with a heavier threat base, Stronghold will be a much more solid choice. Especially being able to discard additional Bobs to 'Core and then put them back on top of the library before draw step. Seems like a good "reserves" way to play around his drawback.

I think I'm gonna stick with SB Mutilate over MD Bane, I really dislike the idea of requiring so much mana to attempt a -x/-x on a single turn if I really need to draw into him, as opposed to just nuking everything whenever I topdeck a Mutilate, which is always at minimum 4. E. Plagues + StP in the SB means Goblins really aren't a problem after game 1.

Never forget that Stronghold only produces colourless, and increases mana inconsistencies if played over a coloured land, the reason I opted not to ultimately run it. In my experience, Wasteland is awesome against anything, allowing me to conditionally fill up on my LD-suite if I've got sufficient LD going on anyways (against Iggy, all kinds of Tomb-decks, Thres, Gobs, etc.) and produces mana if I don't have the tools to hit the landbase.

SB-option is definately Mutilate, but I don't like trying to win games 2 and 3, I want a shot at game 1, Bane gives me the means to kill hordes pre-board. I'd really like one that did it when it comes into play. I actually considered Kagemaro, but 5 is a lot to flip from Confidant and it costs tons to get on board (for 3 mana, Bane can be Morphed and sweep for 1 the next turn).

Going second, I've noticed that the deck REALLY wants a Ritual or a Mox-opening unless you're up against combo since you need to get your Sinkholes and Hymns online before opponent drops his hand rendering them useless.

Have you guys tried adding Pillor of Sleeplessness or Soul Link? A Soul link on your bomb creature (like Kezzerdrix) would be pretty good and the -4 life if opponent has no creatures wouldn't hurt as much.

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

Feeling slightly retarded for forgetting to look at artifact creatures when looking over possible beatsticks, Masticore might just be a really useful addition. At worst he's 4 for a 4/4, which is still solid. If there's no Needle's, he becomes instant speed spot removal, and an eternal blocker. He just might be the 2 card replacement for my Cursed Scrolls that went SB.

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Actually, there are at least two scenarios worse than him being a vanilla 4/4. 1) He's stuck in your hand because you never hit 4. 2) You're forced to discard your disruption to him instead of using it to win. Heck, Juggernaut is probably better than him.

No offense but Juggernaut is a horrible suggestion. It dies to a Nimble Mongoose or much less a lightning bolt.

I assure that Masticore is exactly what this deck is looking for. Your disruption is just to throw off your opponents initial plan. Cards like Dark Ritual, Duress, Hymn, Sinkhole or any of the 22 lands this deck runs start sucking it up in the mid and late game.

Masticore on the other hand serves many different functions, all of which this deck is lacking in. It's a resilient blocker that survives everything sans Swords (which you have Duress and 12 other potent threats to deal with), it's a solid threat, it's an extremely fast clock and it's a potent instant speed repeatable removal. Best of all it lets you run Jitte, the other card that serves a bunch of different functions that are precisely what this deck needs. Removal, clock, saving your creatures and lifegain.

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Originally Posted by Clark Kant

Ever since I built Pikula's deck, while I had been pleased with the deck's performance against combo and control, I had been displeased with it's performance against the the four main stompy decks (Fairie Stompy, Angel Stompy, Zilla Stompy and 9 Land Stompy) and more generally, it's weak performance against well built aggro decks of any form.

If you had been following the other deadguy thread, you'll note that I had been testing various different directions in which to take the deck for some time now (everything from Exalted Angel and Jotun Grunt to Juzam Djinn and Spectral Lynx).

Now after much playtime against aggro decks, primarily against the decks Fairie Stompy, Goblins, 9 Land Stompy and Zilla Stompy, I finally arrived at a deck that I have been extremely pleased with, one that is quite different from the original deck, enough that I believe it warrants a seperate thread.

First, here is the list.

Deadguy Remix

8 Swamp
4 Duals
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Jitte

4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Dark Confidant
3 Rotting Giant (Withered Wretch in a select few metas) (Originally tested Jotun Grunt in this slot)
2 Nantuko Shade
2 Masticore

Update: I just cut 1 Shade for 1 Confidant as the mana cost is more managable. You can consistently play a 1B on second turn to at the very least act as a blocker. A BB often is sometimes unplayable till third turn when you have better cards to play and already took too much damage due to your inability to block their second turn onslaught. I also cut 1 Volrath's Stronghold for 1 Polluted Delta as was my original test list before I decided that higher artifact and lower white count lets me get away with running 2 Strongholds.

The key advantage of the above build is that it doesn't sacrifice Deadguys potency against combo and control by making such changes as cutting Wastelands to make room for more aggro hate, or subbing out Duresses with Funeral Charms in order to improve the aggro match.

Instead of replacing answers to combo and control with answers to aggro, it sought to improve it's aggro matchup by replacing previous answers to aggro with superior answers to aggro. One example of this is the replacement of Cursed Scroll with Jitte. Another such example is the replacement of Engineered Plague with Masticore. In testing, I have repeatedly found Jitte to be everything Scroll ever wanted to be, and then some. Lifegain, pump, and removal, without the conditionality of only being consistently useful if you have only one card in hand, without the limitation of only being able to kill threats with 2 toughness or less and without the need to invest 3 additional mana each and every turn makes for a far superior card.

Of course, the inclusion of Jitte required more threats and more resilient threats.

3 Ofs - Both Confidant and Shade are, though quite powerful, cards that you never want to see more than one copy of per game. Seeing as this is at it's core a controllish deck, this situation came up too often for comfort, and both cards were reduced to a 3 of.

Rotting Giant - A 3/3 for 2 mana with no drawback. The only arguement against this card is that it serves no additonal utility role. The other two replacements considered for this slot are Jotun Grunt and Withered Wretch. Jotun Grunt though an excellent creature, leaves play in just a mere two turns. Running it means that you are unable to play Jitte, and that in just two turns you run into the same situation the original Deadguy build runs into, being overwhelmed by threats. Withered Wretch on the other hand is a perfectly fine substitute in this slot as it does stay in play. In a meta with an abundance of Reanimator and Threshold type decks, Wretch is the obvious choice. In a meta with an abundance of traditional aggro, Rotting Giant deals with and trades with a far greater number of creatures. As by and far, most metas fit the latter criteria, Rotting Giant is more commonly the correct direction to go.

Nantuko Shade vs. Rotting Giant - I'll grant that overall Nantuko Shade is the stronger creature. The problem however is that early on, Giant is far better esp in the problem matchups. When you are being weenie rushed as early as turn 2 and 3, you are far better off having just cast a 3/3 on your side than you are tapping out to cast a 2/1 on your side. Shade requires a two mana pump each turn to get the same toughness that Giant has built in. Early on (the critical turns where you must stabilize against aggro) this is either not an option, or an option that disables you from playing the other threats in your hand.

Masticore - Originally tested Juzam Djinn in this slot but found Masticore all around a better choice. Testing has proved that Masticore is Jitte 3-4 in that it's every bit as potent, even more so, in wrecking aggro. The reason the card doesn't see much play in Legacy is because most decks are too fast to reliably be stopped by a 4cc creature. Deadguy on the other hand is the perfect fit, as it is the one deck that is extremely potent in slowing even the most aggressive of decks down to a more managable level. It also benefits from being one of the few decks very able to rob your opponents hands of any creature removal thus protecting your threats. The upkeep cost: discard is rarely painful, as Deadguy is notorious for having a glut of cards that though very potent early on, are far weaker in the midgame (Duress, Sinkhole, Hymn, Dark Ritual). The versatility of Masticore however is top notch. It can ping away creatures every bit as quickly as Cursed Scroll, all while dealing 4 damage to the face or providing a massive blocker. It can deal 6 damage a turn and provide a three turn clock for opponents running fetchlands. And regeneration is also quite a useful ability.

I highly encourage any previous Deadguy players or more generally, any fans of control decks, to take the above build out for a test drive.

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After speaking with a friend of mine, I'm thinking a really good idea against most of our bad matchups (typically aggro/aggro control), would actually be Engineered Explosives. Nearly everytime you're going to set it down @ 2 counters, which is enough to blow away any main threats of Thresh, Goblins, Affinity, and most of the remaining aggro based things, as well as randomly hating against Iggy (artificial manabase), and things like Survival (and most of it's utility/accelerants).

I'm considering running 2-3 in the SB now in place of E Plague, which is honestly only a solid thing against Goblins, and only if you find 2 fast enough.

Definitely keeping Masticore as a 2 of in the deck, after playtesting I never found myself running short, especially since all of us agree that random pieces of discard late game is almost always dead.

Volrath's Stronghold is still being tested in my build. Still don't have Wasteland, as I typically see Affinity, Rifter, Solidarity, IGGY Pop, Thresh, Control Slivers, RGSA, or anything else that doesn't run more than 4-8 non-basics, plus way more basics or acceleration to win around Wasteland without tempo loss.

Here's what I'm at so far:

Lands/Mana:24
2 Volraths Stronghold
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Godless Shrine (or Tainted, your choice)
7 Swamp
4 Dark Ritual

Disruption:20
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate

Creatures:16
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Masticore

Sideboard:
4 Withered Wretch (may just use Crypt, with so many maindeck creatures now)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mutilate
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Still working on getting Jitte into the maindeck (may take out something like 1 Hymn and 1 Duress/Verdict), and if more aggro decks start showing up, I'm definitely going to replace 4 discard for 4 StP maindeck. For now, this seems to be a very solid run, though I'm still worried certain decks will just literally outrun me.

I'll be doing more testing over the week, and give some insight to what's going on, and any changes.

Edit: @ Lego- Both of those cases you would lose regardless of if he's in the deck or not. At the point that after turn 4 (our average for casting Masticore, without Ritual) you're afraid to pitch your discard/disruption because it's more needed than a 4-5 turn clock, you're already far behind. Same with the lacking of 4 mana, especially allowing colorless sources to cast him. Rarely will I run myself short on mana, and I cut myself back to 20 lands, 6 of which are fetches.

I think that any build that wants to run 4cc creatures, such as Masticore, pretty much has to run 22 lands atleast. Pikula's original build ran 23 lands, and his curve topped off at 3.

I can also say for certain that Jitte is worth it's weight in gold, hence why I'm running 3. Every one of it's abilities is insanely useful in this deck esp.

Unfortunately, if you want to run Jitte, you are pretty much forced to make sure that all your threats stick around for a couple of turns, hence forcing that you run Rotting Giant over Jotun Grunt.

Hey guys. Wizards of the Coast is going to print (in Time Spiral) a 4cc (2BB) 5/5 Sliver. The only catch is that it reads "all slivers gain 'during your upkeep this creature deals 1 damage to you.'" Do you think this guy is going to see play in the deck?

Probably, if they cant afford Cursed Scrolls, Jittes, or Juzam Djinn.

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Originally Posted by Team-Hero

Hey guys. Wizards of the Coast is going to print (in Time Spiral) a 4cc (2BB) 5/5 Sliver. The only catch is that it reads "all slivers gain 'during your upkeep this creature deals 1 damage to you.'" Do you think this guy is going to see play in the deck?

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Better than Juzam, hoses enemy slivers.
But this deck dosn't need Juzam

There is a chance the sliver could be used in this deck, but the problem of his constant life loss could be an issue in a standoff. 5 really isn't much better than 4 at this rate, it's still 4 turns to swing (average life loss of most decks by the end of the game is 4 due to fetches, and even more with things like Thresh running FoW in addition). Plus, it only really beats out thresh'd Werebear, whereas Masticore can block and regen, and possibly kill off something in addition with extra mana in the late game.

I would say at this point, the big difference is whether or not you see Pithing Needle. I personally consider a 4 colorless 4/4 with utility that requires colorless and has regeneration over a 2 and 2 core black 5/5 vanilla that hurts you every turn.

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Originally Posted by DeathwingZERO

Edit: @ Lego- Both of those cases you would lose regardless of if he's in the deck or not. At the point that after turn 4 (our average for casting Masticore, without Ritual) you're afraid to pitch your discard/disruption because it's more needed than a 4-5 turn clock, you're already far behind. Same with the lacking of 4 mana, especially allowing colorless sources to cast him. Rarely will I run myself short on mana, and I cut myself back to 20 lands, 6 of which are fetches.

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That's the problem with the deck: in both of these situations you would have already lost. My point was supposed to be that he seems win-more to me. By this I mean that for him to be good, you have to be already winning the game. If you've hit 4 mana, and have consistantly kept your opponent off of threats, then any creature will win you the game. If you haven't hit 4 mana, or haven't properly kept your opponent off of threats, they are going to be able to deal with Masticore, and he's simply going to slow down your game plan. What the deck needs is some way to win in these situations. I find that often on turn 4 your opponent is beginning to recover from your disruption, which is why a creature like Confidant is great because he allows you to keep disrupting while beating down. It's why Nantuko Shade is great because you can disrupt, disrupt, disrupt, and then win all at once. When you play Masticore, it seems that instead you are giving up on the disruption, going "all in" and allowing your opponent ample time to recover and deal with him.