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Welcome, welcome! I'm with barcode: usually it's the first cut after g1. Had some awesome blow-outs through Manabond, so untill I find something better they stay MD. Worm Harvest seems a fun option though :smile:, but not sure if they are MD-material.
EDIT: probably what Dice_Box says; SB-material.
I agree to this. I am siding them out a lot of the time but that is normally when I am also bringing in answers or effects that slow down the game. You do not have such a need to break parity with land drops once you have things like Choke or Spheres to do that effect for you. You can slow down the game and then play a more traditional style that matches the strengths of the deck. I find myself also against decks with heavy Grave hate (Like DnT) siding them out and the Canopy. In this case it is not to gain an advantage with secondary effects but to remove some of the harm that a card like RIP will do to the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
I feel like taking out Manabond game's two and three is more often than not the best idea, but that is normally because you are honing your spear point and making your decks thrust far more directed. Cutting the fat so to speak and gaining advantages in other places. It is not really necessary to play more than one land a turn once everything costs 3 and you can Wasteland over and over.
Although Manabond gets sided out most games it is great game one. It has the chance to give you the turn 2 kill which is very important against an unknown opponent. When you know what they are playing then your sideboard is often straight up better than the manabond. For example in theory you want them in the Omni matchup because of the possible velocity they give. However you have probably just brought in 12 + cards. Firstly you need space for these and secondly you don't want to discard them to manabond so the two disadvantages mean you cut two. It just feels like you don't need the card because of the number of times you are cutting it but it just doesnt interact well with most of you board.
The reason I take Manabond out is because I want to hold my K-grips (and other sideboard cards) in my hand and not discard them. I'm okay with the game going long because I will make it go long with Spheres and Trinisphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
There's nothing to be gained from going crazy in post-board games on turn 1 and risking a Loam getting extracted to a sideboard Surgical.
Thanks for the warm welcome :)
Totally agree, upon reflection, I think I've fallen into the trap of thinking "Cool, have Manabond, should be able to do something utterly broken now", and being disappointed when it blows up in my face, rather than "Cool, have a situational Exploration, should be able to do something utterly broken in a couple of turns".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Going to try running a top 8 list for a bit, see if I can get my head around when/what to mulligan.
If I'm not mistaking the last three posts are agreeing about the same thing :laugh:
Played a small tourney this weekend.
Round 1 - Affinity
I win game one after a missed tabernacle trigger wipes his board. Game two my trinisphere holds him at bay, but his tormods crypts wipe my critical pieces. I finally make token but he has lots of dudes, and kills me. Game three i made a bad choice, and gambled for a tabernacle early. It played, but i should have grabbed the trinisphere. I lose.
Round 2 - I get the dang bye. Ugh. For fun I play against someone who isnt in the tourney who borrows a goblins deck. I win pretty handily, nothing to speak of.
Round 3 - RUG delver. Game one is brutal. I mull to five and he is quickly beating me up with Goyf and a flipped delver. However, when Im at three life, he has a waste and a tropical for lands, and I waste his trop, so he wastes my taiga. I crop rotate out the taiga for tabernacle and stabilize when he has no mana to pay for his dudes. I get combo pieces and am ready to generate token. He has one turn left, and for fucks sake, he lightning bolts me. Grrr!
Game two i dont remember other than he is able to counter all of my hate and outrace me.
Round 4 - Shardless BUG. These are looooong grindy games, and I take game one after establishing a strong board and plowing through with lage. Game two takes a while, as i keep beating up his mana while i trying to stabilize and get combo. He finally gets Lilliana on board and makes me sac lage, allowing him throu with Goyf. Game three is easier. He cant use deathrite to kill my loam (i found three pretty quickly) as Im killing his mana and he needs to eat lands to do anything. I boarded in Primetime and had him out on turn six or seven, grabbed combo, made Lage and smash.
I didnt have the points to play top four (damn bye) so the day ends pretty quickly (small tourney). Still fun though, and Im slowly getting better at figuring out what calls to make when. RG lands is no joke, offering a LOT of choices, meaning a lot of room for error.
Seeing that David Long took third in Richmond gives me hope.
Trinisphere is probably one of the worst cards vs affinity on the draw. Just side in 3-4 grips for equipment, needle, or crypt. They should have their hand on the table before sphere hits and you only slow down your window for onedrops and pfire to take over the game. Get chasm, gg.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimoirePath
Agreed with 3Sphere. I wouldn't bring it in at all, I think. The matchup is just too fast. You're better off with your Chalice of the Void and Krosan Grip. Everything dies to Punishing Fire or is dealt with by Maze of Ith. I don't see how this match is losable given tight play.Quote:
Originally Posted by snorlaxcom
Thanks for the advice. After I play against a deck multiple times, i generally figure out what i need to do to consistently win. I just need that playtime against a lot of variant archetypes.
David Long makes so many top8's these days, it's almost becoming normal :), mayor props to him. I found his list with the 4 maindecked Depths very interesting, it seems that an emphasis on the combo serves Lands better than the value of a singleton Karakas or Bog in this meta. I do like it and will try this as well, although multiple Depths can clog things up.
I guess it is dependent on what you expect to face. Since you can tutor for what you place in that slot, it can matter greatly what you use it for. Not questioning success though. That man knows what he is doing and I tip my hat to him.
Quick question: how do people feel about boarding Exploration out against Miracles? Putting in multiple Sphere-effects, Choke and Boseiju.
My plan for Miracles is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
+1 Boseiju
+1 Choke
+2 Trinisphere
+2 Chalice of the Void
+4 Krosan Grip
-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond
-3 Maze of Ith
-1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Glacial Chasm
-1 Dark Depths
Exploration is very important to getting a mana advantage so you can cast Trinisphere and other hate cards. Later, being able to Loam back Stage and Depths and play both in the same turn is very powerful indeed.
True, and I have always kept Exploration in, I was just wondering if there was another possibility. I have no intention to rush things and really slowrolling manadenial them sounded like a plausible alternative.
Wenn I can, I try to keep Boujka in against Miracle too, especially if they are playing with Snappy. If not, it still makes our taxes effect + denial way more effective to avoid they to DTT, which help them a lot to find answer to our hate. But sure, I'd rather have 1 Trinisphere / Choke etc than 1 Bojuka if I had to choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
But I wonder about the -1 DD. I'd rather -1 THicket than DD in such a M-U. (unless they are playing Surgical, which is quite unusual). Or -1 P.fire.
Games are going to go long and I don't want depths jamming my hand up. One of the goals is to Chalice for 1 to stop Surgical Extraction (and thus protect Loams and other pieces). I have found that Punishing Fire is very important in the matchup since it's the way to answer Jace, Angels, Snapcaster and now Mentors. It could be right to only have 3, however! I actually have a test session in a few hours against Miracles and I'll try that one out. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkgobs
I am pretty sure 2 depths after board is correct since the game will go long and I want to leverage Thicket and dredges to find them.
You guys think Animist's Awakening has a home here?
Read back a few pages. tl;dr - not impressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer
Lands on Camera at SCGDC. Sadly its against Omni-Derp.
Bummer.
Hate that match-up.
Aaaah too late to watch, I will take a look later this week.
Played a small tournament today. There were 20 people. The list:
RGCL
Spells (16)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Punishing Fire
4 Life from the Loam
4 Gamble
Other Spells (10)
2 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
Lands (34)
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Taiga
3 Maze of Ith
3 Dark Depths
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
Sideboard (15)
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Choke
3 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Krosan Grip
The rounds:
R1 Jamie (12th at GP Lille) with ANT, 1-2 L
Not much to say. Jamie told me he kept a good hand when facing Burn or Goblins, for we know eachother for some time now, and I have played against him with those two decks. Imagine his surprise :smile: Against all odds I win the first game. In game two and three he shows he knows how to play ANT. I made big error by not siding in Bog, and unfortunately did not see any hate. I did draw a 3Sphere, which he took with Duress.
R2 Tim with 4c Delver. 1-2 L.
Here's a interesting scenario: he has two Delvers, Shaman, some cantrips, and instants/ sorceries in the GY. I have the combo assembled, together with some lands: Waste, Taiga among others. I'm on eight, he has to kill me or will face Marit Lage. He goes all in, I make a token, he plays Submerge... Too eager, not paying attention cost me the game.
R3 Jordy with Shardless Bug, 2-1(?) W
Not much to say, other than playing thight was what won me the game. It was rather amusing giving him 10+ life with Grove.
R4 Balthasar with DnT, 1-0-1 W
Game one ends rather quickly, game two goes on and on: he has RiP in play, so I decide to slow-roll this one. He manage to get me to six, I make a Witch, he plows, aaaaand we start all over again. I do manage to get RiP off the board, play Tabernacle, two Maze, and Port to keep his mana/ creatures in check. He slowly eats my lifetotal away. We go to time, I make a Witch, he plows again. Aaaaand back to square one, and 26 life. I'm able to assemble the combo, but as we are already out of time, it's a draw.
Balthasar played the new taxing pony Vryn Wingmare, which is a pretty annoying card. Still, having acces to a lot of mana, and him not drawing Port or Waste made me not worry to much. But it should be dealt with right away.
R5 Niek with Shardless Bug, 2-0 W
Game one brings me Manabond, LftL, and Wasteland. Needless to say he never got to keep lands, and he concedes rather quickly. Not knowing what he is playing ( I only saw Bayou, and U-Sea, so had a hunch) I only board some K-Grips. Game two takes a bit longer. I play it safe, not knowing what he's up to. I manage to safely keep LftL running (having Thicket as an emergency-brake), despite the fact of a Shaman online. He then procedes to build up pressure through creatures and Waste. I manage to waste one Waste. I then Loam back a DD, play it to bait a second Waste later in the game, which he quickly removes from the game with Shaman. Unknown to Niek at that point, I already had a second DD in hand. Just when he thinks he has the game, I play DD, and at the end of his turn...
So... 3-2, good enough for 7th place. Unfortunately, there's only a T4. Still, felt good to play the deck, and while I'm not there yet the deck starts to feel more familiar.
I was very surprised to see David Long's sideboard choices on SCG coverage for his Temur Delver match. I always cut my Crop Rotations because Delver plays so much countermagic that having Rotation countered sets you so far behind (and it's probably unrecoverable).
Do other people leave Crop Rotation in their deck in that matchup? My sideboard plan is:
-3 Crop Rotation
-1 Manabond (I only play 1)
+2 Chalice of the Void
+1 Choke
+1 Trinisphere
If I suspect equipment or a Relic of Progenitus or Sulfuric Vortex that I have to deal with I cut Glacial Chasm for a K-Grip.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
I always keep CR in. Yesterday I only boarded +2 Choke, -2 Manabond. Sometimes I will take out -2 Tranquil Thicket, and -1 Karakas for +3 K-Grip.
I really never considered taking CR out.
EDIT: thinking about it, I have no idea what Timur Delver is, hahaha. I was reffering to 4c Delver.
Most of Delver's counter-magic is the soft, taxing sort which we can play around. When they have no lands at all they can only play force (and we can almost always recover against a landless Delver opponent). They can't even cast Force without land when there is a Sphere up!Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
I think I've only lost one match to Thresh, and I screwed it up. You can probably board however you want (within reason).
Lands just rocked Grixis Delver 2-0 on camera in some rather quick games. I believe lands may be in the t8 of SCGDC.
Damn! I was hoping it would slide under the radar before Champs!Quote:
Originally Posted by UnsungHero
Good afternoon,
Both Daryl Ayers and David Long had Molten Vortex in their sideboards. Do we have any data on how those cards performed? I'm assuming they were testing a replacement for Seismic Assault in the Bloodmoon matchups, with the upside of it being an easier to cast removal spell when we need a fifth Pfire.
They were also both playing a 4th Dark Depths rather than what I have come to think of as the standard three. Is this because we need to increase the chance of naturally drawing the combo vs miracles going long and having a combo opener vs fast combo game 1 ? I like a Boseiju out of the side to accompany the Chokes if I am very worried about Miracles.
Is four fetchlands now the norm? Even with 3 I have found I often get to the point very early where I have nothing to fetch for. (as did David when he cracked his fetch with the Taigas in the grave and the forest on the board. He looked so sad I wanted to give him a hug through the screen :frown: ) I understand they are there to ensure Green on turn one. But is the chance of mulligan increased so much by swapping that 4th fetch for a useful mana producer or utility land like Ghost quarter or even Horizon canopy (if we want to maintain green count) ?
Sphere of resistance seems to have left the sideboard as well. I agree totally with 4 trinisphere. It is a beating against omni and amazing if we get the time to land it vs storm. I am also aware of the slight nonbo with Sphere and Trinisphere.
Cheers in advance for some hopefully good discussion.
I can't fathom playing fewer than three Tiagas. Watching one Ayers trying to Punishing Fire down creatures and lacking red sources was a sad thing indeed.
I saw the Molten Vortex in action on camera and it wasn't impressive, it could have been a factor of his Loams being extracted or just getting overwhelmed by tokens. Overall I wasn't super impressed by the showering. It gets under countermagic more easily than Seismic Assault but I don't think Seismic Assault or Molten Vortex would have been good in that game.
Does anyone know what happened in the T8 match vs Shaheen? Why did Daryl scoop?
I've been on three taigas for a long time now and I haven't ever wanted to go back. It makes closing out games with punishing fire a bit more realistic as well as preventing feel bad moments like David Long had when he tried to fetch with his forest in play and both taigas in the bin. I think the third taiga is way better than the fourth fetch and would like to hear some opposing view points since it's not even close for me personally.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
Now I'm curious: what does your manabase look like?
Regarding 3Sphere vs SoR: I have a lot of competent Storm-plagers in my meta. 3 Sphere is just too slow. I do see the appeal of dropping SoR.
Playing with a 3 Dual base, mine looks like this:
1 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Fetches
3 Taiga
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Mox
I feel like when hedging against Storm you need speed. If your dropping Spheres for 3spheres, add Chalices.
I'm playing the same as dice except with an additional tranquil which I'm guessing is in the place of a utility land (I'm running bog and karakas in the side right now).
The benefit of the fourth fetch over a third Taiga is that we can fetch our basic vs a Moon deck. I'm not saying this makes it better overall; we have to weight the pros and cons.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
The density of Moon decks in your meta should be the biggest deciding factor I think.
My mana producers:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
4 Mox Diamond
3 Fetches
3 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Rishadan Port
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Bojuka Bog (hey, it makes mana)
1 Karakas
I will never play fewer than 3 Taigas.
You can say we have hit the stage with a bang now, people want to ban us:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Solutions.html
(Yes, that list is playing a playset of Tabernacle.)
I can't take what he says seriously; I've seen him commentating in the booth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I sort of meant beyond the obvious. Thanks for explaining blood moon though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Another lands top 8... still under the radar?