Printable View
I just saw maharis' list and it looks both fun and powerful. However, I've seen some people question some of the card choices. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for trying to further optimize his list, if possible. For example, Navsi mentioned Fierce Empath as a strong GSZ target, which makes sense. What would come out, though? I also agree that there should be more removal, but what else can come out without hurting the combo synergy?
The 2 planeswalkers are probably the only flex slots.
Mentor, Souls and the planeswalkers are all varying flavors of "don't die before you draw your combo" and Intent fodder, with various extra upside for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
The deck is pretty removal light, and leaning 100% on Decay and Deed gives you some problems sometimes - switching some Decays for Swords or Innocent Blood or Collective Brutality helps matchups like Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Not sure how good this deck's Miracles match up is though, which might be a reason to stick to Decay.
The ~12 combo cards (Rectors, Intents, Omni, Emrakul, Bounty, Mentor, extra Top) can be swapped out for a similar set of combo stuff if you want to. Nyx Fit has a similar number of primary combo cards, and uses a few enchantment creatures for support where this deck uses token makers. Sneak runs 4 Sneak, ~4 fatties, and 1-2 Empaths and doesn't really need anything else beyond that.
Random thought. Has any attempt ever been made to play Scapeshift for Marit Lage? It's not as strong as Valakut, but it also doesn't tie you to red, since white is a much stronger third color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I like the idea to try it with Ob Nyxilis the Fallen one day, even if it sounds clunky ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The problem with Scapeshift isn't being in red - red isn't that much worse than white tbh. The problem is your mana base is pretty terrible because of the number of lands that are bad to draw / losing to Wasteland. Depths has the same problems, with lots of colorless lands and having to pass turn after Scapeshift, then make a 20/20 and pass turn again, means you're two turns slower and have more trouble with getting disrupted.
Red also includes Burning Wish which is exactly what Scapeshift wants. Losing Wish makes you way less consistent.
After a year of silence, I have returned, ready to make Echelon more amazing signatures!
Legacy finally started catching on at my LGS, and I'm ready to come back to Nic Fit as a deck that is easily accessible to me, although it would be built slowly. The scene is, as far as I know, mostly Burn, with some D&T, Infect, and Reanimator. I've caught up on the primer, but still feel out of the loop a little bit. I also can't decide between Jund and Abzan. I own a single Badlands that I desperately want to play with, but I own 4 Windswept Heaths and 3 Godless Shrine (Eventually they'll be Scrublands, but it's a start!). Which version should I run, and does anybody have a list of the recommended version?
If you get 4 lands with Scapeshift you can get Depths, Stage, and 2 mana to activate Stage. So you only have to pass turn once after Scapeshift, at that point you can make Marit Lage on your turn or your opponents turn at any point. So it's 1 turn slower, but it also requires fewer lands to get started which speeds you up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
At that point you are playing an overcosted Crop Rotation. Building the Crop Rotation Version of the deck and slipping in a DD combo would be more feasible in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I would probably go for a junk list, since it has access to swords/pte and Karakas aside of the usual graveyard hate to combat Reanimator. Also DRS will be of lot of help vs both Burn as Reanimator. Having Tusk/Rhino/Courser/Scooze will also help vs Burn. Punishing Fire would be better vs DnT and Infect, but junk has a more even spread in this field. Also, if the Reanimator dude is know for it in your meta, then people would have prepared against graveyard interaction making PFire a less valid choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
Both have their merits. a lot will argue junk is better, but i suppose it is just what you'd prefer.
Yes and no. Crop Rotation is a good card, but it requires having 1 piece of the combo already (rarely can you Rotation for both) which prices you in to 3 Rotations, 3 Depths, and 2 Stages at a minimum. Since Depths doesn't provide mana, you need to consider it a spell slot. So that's 6 spells 2 colorless lands you need to include at minimum. The Scapeshift route however lets you run 1 Depths, 1 Stage, 4 Scapeshift which is 6 spells and 1 colorless land. In addition to the Depths combo it also assembles the Two Towers. This is a big improvement. Where it's worse, is that Crop Rotation opens up some more explosive T1's though Vet/Therapy/Scapeshift does allow for a T2 Marit Lage (and T3 attack) so that's explosive in it's own way.Quote:
Originally Posted by emuhell
But then you have to wait another turn to attack, so it's 2 turns until your opponent is dead, whereas Scapeshift kills instantly... Moreover, you give one full turn for your opponent to play 1 Wasteland and ruin your combo, aside from being slower it dies to StP, can be blocked by fliers, so it's a lot less reliable... I've been playing the combo with Intuition and Life from the Loam and have cut it from my deck surprised by how poorly reliable it is, and playing Scapeshift for it seems more investment for a tool with less versatility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Hi everyone,
After trying to make stone fit works, I tested snic fit but found that I was sometime light on gas, I then tested bob fit and the cards were flowing but I died too many times with my hand full.
Now my peregrinations have bring me to nyx fit.
The sheer joy of winning with standard cards :smile: (well this is nic fit so you must be used to those comments :tongue: ) , because rhino was a serious contender but nyx weaver made for some fun comments (and even funnier after I won).
For those who have not tried it, the miracle match up is unbelievable. I've been testing this one specially, and it feels like toying with a mouse :laugh:.
There is so much value miracle can't keep up. The plan is deplete their hand, then slam starfield and enjoy !
Highlight of last week session was living plane + starfield + deed VS miracle for recurring armagedon, then nothing until I could discard to hand size and watch my poor opponent scoop.
Anyway recursive deed handle so much that the rest of the deck feels overkill.
I must say that faster matchups / matchups that attacks our mana are harder, but it's so much fun to beat miracle with such an ease.
Also congrats on the new primer !
Developing the B/G Scapeshift idea further, here's where I'm at right now. It's basically like what I've been running, but trying to up the curve a little. I'm looking towards dropping Bob entirely, but that brings back the age old 2 drop problem and I'm a little concerned I don't have enough mana here to support the curve of 3 5 drops.
Land 23
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures 16
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 The Gitrog Monster
Planeswalker 2
2 Nissa, Vital Force
Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
1 Crop Rotation
On paper I really like the Tracker, Courser, and Gitrog interactions with Scapeshift but I'm wondering if it might just be win more, you don't really need cards if you're winning the game on the following turn with Depths. On the other hand, if you just go for value with Two Towers, a whole bunch of cards is exactly what you want.
I'm a little sad I haven't found room for SDT's yet.
I feel like the list wants like a wasteland or ghost quarter. That way if they have one on board you can beat it by Scapeshitting into the combo plus the waste by forcing theirs with yours and then you get to combo in response.
Are you running Nether Void and/or other anti-combo pieces? (same question to Navsi, via PM)Quote:
Originally Posted by Plm
Remember that you are not winning the game the turn after scapeshift, you need another turn to be able to attack with Marit Lage. The interaction with Tracker is sweet though; having a bunch of cards is an excellent side effect in the very probable case that DD combo goes wrong (Wasteland appears in 44.7% of the decks and Swords to Plowshares in 29.2% by mtgtop8.com statistics). Personally, I feel that unless you are playing the combo redundantly, either by playing Life from the Loam or a bunch of DD and Thespian Stages, it isn't worth it most of the time because of how large the number of decks that can interact with it is.
On running Wasteland as a way to protect it, they can just blow your DD/Thespian while you are tapped out from Scapeshift and your combo is gone unless you run LftL or can Zenith an Eternal Witness.
Not gonna lie, I just actually read Scapeshift because I've never played it and I don't play modern. I didn't realize the lands come in tapped. What a piece of shit.
Usually that's how it works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I thought they came in untapped too. I'm going to have to think about this more now. I think it's still ok but that one turn does matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Shameless copy of Navsi's Nahiri Sneaky with some fine tuning (removing Nahiri :o) and pushing it back down to 60 cards
[14] Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Siege Rhino
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Woodland Bellower
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
[14] Core
3 Sneak Attack
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
[9] Removal
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
[1] Planeswalkers
1 Nissa, Vital Force
[22] Land
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
2 Blood Moon
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Nahiri, the Harbringer
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Inferno Titan
1 Toxic Deluge
Comments on the changes:
- I miss Abrupt Decays, I really do. It comes in swapping Nahiri out. Nahiri is fantastic no doubt but she is horrid vs Tempo and Taxation. She is awesome enough to warrant a spot in the SB.
- Prime Time -> 2 Towers comes in instead of Inferno Titan. Inferno Titan getting plowed just plainly sucks and I want the 6 drop to be the death kneel for Miracles. Red Titan can come in vs Elves and DnT.
- We got W and we got R, I see no reason to not to add in Huntmaster and Rhino :laugh:
- The threat of the combo is greater than the combo itself. Nic Fit is first and foremost a control deck seeking to prolong the game till our mana >> theirs. Sneaky serves this purpose even better as opponents hold out counter mana and play poorly due to this threat as Sneaky Fit is very uncommon. Hence I cut 1 Sneak Attack down to 3. (Basically same train of thought as Splinter Twin)
- Ooze because I am selfish and do not want to let others have fun with GY shenanigans.
- Personal preferences, I like 7 Basics 7 Fetches 6-7 Duals in my Nic Fit decks. Shifted Scrubland to Bayou because the Golgari land is more critical than the Orzhov land especially when facing Wastelands.
- I really want to have a Toxic Deluge MB but I refuse to dip into 61 card territory for a deck with a combo plan.
- SB is basically stopping myself from losing and pushing my Plan A (Nic Fit Value Town) forward. No City of Solitude as I do not play to push Plan B hard. (I board out the entire combo most of the time)
I did bring this to a local tournament with a 4-0 & 3-1 score and 3 weeks of playtesting. Looking forward to your inputs :tongue:
On a side note, After having a lot of fun with Meren and Sakura Tribe Elder together in EDH, I feel these 2 absolutely have to be paired together if we are playing Meren.
Edit: for correct [number] singletons make it hard to count =x
Welcome back!Quote:
Originally Posted by cavalrywolfpack
As for builds, or what to get first, saving towards a set of Verdant Catacombs is never a bad plan. Any version of Nic Fit will want 4 of those (and nets you some more time to make up your mind).
That 1 turn can be the difference between life and death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Rhino version could be a good start, as it is extremely cheap. All its nonQuote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
-land cards cost less than…a set of Scapewish or Burnwillow.
I think set of Burnwillows cost as much as 1-2 lower end Duals :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokugawa
@Tokugawa, your location is Beijing so will you be at GP Beijing later in May? Would be travelling down and totally would not mind meeting up with a fellow Nic Fit player :laugh:
- Adding Decay is fine. I don't agree with cutting Nahiri though. Going into four color hits your consistency and if you aren't playing the good payoff cards you might as well stay in three colours. Swords is nice but it's not so much better than Innocent Blood to make the splash worth it. Nahiri adds a completely new angle of attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
- Dropping Inferno Titan feels terrible. Against STP decks he isn't what you search up anyway (unless you can sweep DnT) so he's only a problem if you draw him naturally, whereas against other decks he is a powerful sweeper, and by having one copy in the deck against Miracles you get eight copies against Elves. Getting Primeval Titan STPed is pretty bad too, towers mean any new threats are good but it's not like he got you anywhere either and he's garbage everywhere else.
- Threatening is all well and good but being able to slam threats and force your opponent to answer them is similarly powerful and actually wins you the game some of the time. Having more copies of Sneak means you can be much more aggressive with casting them. You've gone from 6 game enders (4 sneak 2 nahiri) down to 3, which makes the deck just way worse at reliability presenting a threat.
- I don't like Huntmaster and Rhino. The two guys aren't dangerous enough to end the game on their own, you don't have the critical mass of midrange threats for them to be relevant. If you're zenithing, if you need pressure you can get Empath into a monster which is less likely to get Pushed or outclassed and more likely to end the game, and if you need to stabilize Thragtusk just does the job better. Making midrange dudes just doesn't do enough to advance our game plan imo.
-Ooze is a good card.
-If you don't want to dilute the combo deck by going to 61 cards why are you diluting the combo deck by removing copies of the primary combo piece? Cutting a Sneak Attack reduces your combo consistency by way more than adding a 61st card.
- City of Solitude is fine even in valuetown. If it resolves it's an x-for1 where x is the number of counters and stifles they draw that game, which is usually pretty solid. It gets killed by enchantment removal, but then they have less answers to Sneak Attack. Sideboard looked fine otherwise - I don't think Nahiri is as good game 2 and 3 since against Nic Fit more answers to planeswalkers will be brought in by most decks if they have them. If you're sideboarding Inferno Titan in against go-wide decks you may as well have Massacre Wurm instead since it does better there. Titan is better in the maindeck because it's a faster clock against other decks where Wurm is just a 6/5, but that matters less when it's only being sideboarded in when it's being a sweeper.
- Did I use Nahiri wrongly? I mostly use her as a 4 cc removal. She sucks when I want to remove that Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
- I see your argument on Huntmaster and Rhino. No doubt they do great work vs UR Delver, RUG Delver and Burn. Rhino is sweet to bridge the gap to >5 mana. Players in my area mostly know how to play against Nic Fit at the moment and Rhino thus far has been stellar with his beefy body and 6 life point swing. Huntmaster is the most lackluster atm I will see to changing him.
- Do not seem to have any problem with Elves or DnT. Could be play patterns or opponent expertise with deck? Especially so for Elf.
- Cause Ooze is king.
- I think the argument for full set of combo piece can be likened to pure UR Twin vs Grixis Twin (really cant think of a good Legacy analogy). I feel you are on the pure Izzet route while I rather poke and scratch to win. Long story short, your Plan A is Sneak Combo mine is Valuetown and vice versa for Plan B.
- I have only 1 Nissa in my mb and the most common walker removal I meet is either Needle/Revoker or Counterspells. I like your Massacre Wurm idea.
Appreciate your response Navsi. Really see that the to and fro discussions here actually challenge bias in card selection. (I kinda forced Huntmaster as I got sweet Korean Foil of him :tongue:)
I'm probably going to be playing on Cockatrice for a while until I finish building Miracles, so cost is irrelevant for now. I'm probably going to start with Abzan because I'm more familiar with it, and I'm just starting to update my list. I'll post it later today if I get the chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
Looking forward to it!
Nahiri is ok as removal if you need it, but if you aren't under immediate pressure, ticking Nahiri up gives your opponent one turn to make a creature / two turns to find a haste guy or a removal spell, or they get killed by Emrakul. If your opponent has a Blood Moon and isn't actively attacking you, I'd happily start ticking her up and let the Moon stay there.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
- Rhino is an ok stabilizer but he never really impresses me. A 6 point life swing is a good way of putting it, but the life loss half of that isn't particularly relevant since most of the time the opponent dies in a single massive swing anyway. I would probably run the second Thragtusk before a Rhino, but if you are worried about the mana he's an option.
- Elves are pretty scary. DnT is even ish, but Inferno helps a lot there too - if they Swords him before he attacks, he's still often a 3-for-1 and six life, which isn't bad even if you're way behind on mana.
- Sneak Attack is such a powerful plan (game 1 especially) that it feel pretty unintuitive to jam it and its support in the deck and then not commit to it. Like, you can sometimes jam a Rhino and ride it to victory, but if that Rhino was a copy of Sneak instead, then you have ~8 cards in your deck that cause you to immediately win the game if you draw them, and they're a lot harder to interact with than a Rhino.
- Usually if there's Needles, Revokers or Maelstrom Pulse / Council's Judgment in people's sideboards, they come in against us. Our walkers are more likely to survive in game 1 when they get more out of dodging Decays and Swords.
You got me there, I guess I will swap the Huntmaster for the Nahiri. Will try it out :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
True, but if you play it on T3 or T4 that's still a T6 win. That's a faster clock than any other win we have outside of Sneak Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Scapeshift for Valakut is probably also faster. Turn 3 Rhino, Turn 4 Rhino is only 2 damage behind Turn 3 Scapeshift for Depths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I think the big problem is that you're tapping out two turns in a row for the plan, and an opponent going undisrupted for that long is probably going to kill you. Anyone who doesn't interact with you enough to deal with Marit Lage is going to be killing you before turn five, or at least landing something that Marit Lage doesn't deal with.
You need a really compelling reason to play Scapeshift over Sneak Attack at this point if you want a combo-based Jund variant. Sneak does the same thing faster, better, with more open slots, and with better backup plans. The concept is still playable, but it's a solid tier under Sneak in my opinion.
The only update to my Sneak list at the moment has been to finally cut Meren from the maindeck. I've swapped the Tracker into the main and moved Meren to the board, because there are still matchups (Eldrazi comes immediately to mind) where Meren just auto-wins the game by herself. Tracker has basically the same run-away potential, but he runs away against more decks and has a better failcase, and being tutorable by Bellower is relevant.
As fond as I am of Nahiri as a card, I don't think I'm on board with stretching Sneak to four colors. The deck doesn't need any additional payoff.
If you want to mess with that concept, I think there's something to be said for some kind of Naya Lightsaber style deck. Something including these cards:
4 Birds of Paradise
xx fatties
3 Nahiri, the Harbinger
3 Sneak Attack
3-4 Punishing Fire
4 Ancient Tomb
3-4 Grove of the Burnwillows
The idea being that you have a million ways to get 3 mana on turn 2 between a dork (I say Birds because red source, but could easily be something else) or Ancient Tomb, and if you have land+dork into tomb, that lets you play a 4-drop on turn 2.
I have no idea where that particular rabbit hole goes, other than not in this thread (maybe a naya version of Sylvan Plug? Dragon stompy without the moons?). But basically I think that if you want to do Nahiri things (which, again, I do endorse -- the card is nuts), Nic Fit isn't really the home for her.
EDIT: Also, feed me some updated Nyx Fit lists. I'm going to proxy it up and take it for a spin at my local in a week just for something different to do.
Think this is close to the "latest" version, from Navsi on page 19.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Recruiter of the Guard is latest tech and it grabs Vet, Witness, Aegis, Spirit, and of course, Rector. I'm in the middle of a league right now with it (1-1 so far) with the changes of -1 Brutality +1 Decay, -1 Skybind +1 Starfield, -1 Cavern +1 Forest. I didn't want to spend 6 tix on a 2nd Brutality, and Decay seems too good not to remove completely. I lost to Nahiricles and have a win against Zombardment. I'll try to finish up soon.
My sideboard has 2 City of Solitude, Courser removed. 1 Thoughtseize in place of the sideboard Spirit.
Part of me wonders if 2 Brutalities should just be Swords to Plowshares? Deck still lacks early interaction. Possibly exchange Chromanticore for a 3rd Swords, I haven't played much with Chromanticore yet. Think the loss of Chromanticore for much better early interaction with stuff could be worth it. We don't care about opponent having life.
I also really want an Eidolon of Blossoms as a GSZ target...not sure what would get the cut for it though. Haven't gotten much reps with Nyx Weaver but others report he is good.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Nyx Weaver
1 Eternal Witness
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Academy Rector
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Chromanticore
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Collective Brutality
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sterling Grove
1 Starfield of Nyx
1 Skybind (he reported that it probably isn't strong enough)
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Living Plane
1 Parallax Wave
3 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
Sideboard:
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Humility
1 Seal of Primordium
1 City of Solitude
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
Edit: Can continue to confirm that people don't realize that Rector can be stopped with a DRS activation. Keep seeing people not leave up green mana and untapped Deathrite when they know I have Rector available...
Hey there, fellers. I was wondering if I could get some sideboarding advice for Burn and Shardless. I know both should be favorable, but I'm still super new to the deck. I'm playing one of Mitchell Stephenson's lists:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Eternal Witness
4 Siege Rhino
1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
3 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
2 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
sb::
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 To the Slaughter
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Painful Truths
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
For Burn I was thinking Nissa comes out because she's so slow, and Golgari Charm comes in for Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex, but I'm not sure what else. For Shardless I've been doing -4 Cabal Therapy, +1 To the Slaughter (Jace is a punk), +1 Painful Truths, +1 Golgari Charm (Strix is kind of annoying, but I'm not sure if they warrant a SB card), +1 Elspeth. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Guys,
First post here, but long time reader.
I will introduce myself first.
I started to play MtG in the Rath block and finished when they changed the frame to modern (just before Mirrodin block).
Me and my little brother did not like the changes and moved to another game, which was more entertaining (L5R).
At the end after more than 10 years I moved to another country and no one played it here.
So I decided I will give a try again to MtG. I came back at the release of Khans of Tarkir and where mostly drafting with some success.
I manage to build a modern deck to have some constructed fun (blue Tron), but did not intend to explore this further.
Couple of month ago some people started to play Legacy in my LGS, so I decided to have a look to this forum and after checking my old binders I realize I still have some staples.
So I build NicFit, which is similar to the last deck I played in the good old Extended (Type1.5):smile:
I played those decks back in the days: Suicide Black, WU Stasis, UG Opposition and Recurring/Survival. My brother on the other side was always on RED :P Sligh and Goblins.
The deck I played the most where Recurring/Survival it was a 4 colour deck with a possible oops I win finisher in the form of Pandemonium/saprolling burst.
So I decided I will give a shot to NicFit.
After reading a lot of posts in this forum and watching some youtube games, I bought some cards and went to my first Legacy tournament.
Battle Report 1.
We played 3 rounds, I do not know the field, so my sideboard is full of random stuff.
First Battle:
4c Blade:
Game 1
I am mana screwed on plains and island. I quickly die to TNN with Jitte. Nothing to say, I still have the edge my opponent does not know what I am playing.
Game 2
I start with forest into Dryad Arbor from Green sun’s zenith.
He plays shaman from a Underground Sea
I go swamp into Shaman and catch a daze.
He goes all in -> Underground sea, Stoneforge + Batterskull.
In my turn I top deck Phyrexian tower. Veteran Explorer use tower, then Cabal Therapy for Batterskull (hit) then Painful truths. Drew a second Cabal Therapy, play it, name Abrupt decay (2hit). Good Turn :tongue:
He has an empty hand, plays a Tropical Island, pass.
I have a full grip, fetch a Bayou, Green sun’s zenith for Sigarda. I leave a plains untapped for Path to exile.
He surrenders.
Game 3
I do not remember much of this game. With Cabal Therapy I kill his blades. We both have huge amount of mana he cast Nahiri Lithomancy. I play Nissa, Vital force. Then reset the board twice with Pernicious deed. We go to time. I have all my lands in play Nissa at 6, he has Nahiri at 5 with batterskull in play. Both in top deck mode.
Sideboard:
Pithing needle
Toxic deluge
Gaddock teeg
Second Battle:
W/G Enchantress
So I remember I had an enchantress deck years ago with words of wind/cloud of fairies and ambassador Laquatus as a win condition.
Game 1
He delays my attacked and development with his enchantments.
I manage to put him on 4 life with Siege rhino in play. So one swing and I am in. He draws a dozen cards and plays elephant grass, rest in peace, emrakul, helm of obedience. Game over.
Game 2
I mulligan to six.
I slow him down with Gaddock teeg killing his Argothian Enchantress during a swing.
I manage to cast Lost Legacy naming rest in peace and a second copy naming Emrakul. Now I have to draw pernicious deed to clean the board and put some pressure on him.
He plays sigil of the empty throne. I draw abrupt decay for his elephant grass and die to a horde of angel.
Sideboard:
12 cards to stop him did not work. I had some clunky draws and completely did not know how to play against it.
Third Battle:
BR Reanimator.
Game 1
He starts and goes Bloodcrypt into entomb a Grizzlybrand and I know I am trouble.
I have a good hand, so I have some chances. I fetch a Bayou and Veteran Explorer hits the table, he reads it carefully and says “OK”.
He Thoughtseize my path to exile and Thoughtseize his Sire of insanity, pass.
I play phyrexian tower, swing for one, use tower fetch 2 forests and Green sun zenith for scavenging ooze, eat both his big guys.
He draws a land I eat Veteran Explorer and proceed to kill my opponent. He drew reanimate but cannot use it (no targets).
Game 2
He mullingan to 5. He goes swamp into entomb a Grizzlybrand.
I go fetch, bayou, pithing needle on Grizzlybrand.
He thouthseize me twice killing surgical extraction and path to exile.
I Cabal therapy naming exhume (miss). He has two lands and two removal spells. I cast Lost Legacy naming chancellor of the annex (another miss) he does not play it.
He draws faithless looting, cast it, discard Iona and animate dead her, naming green. I cannot cast my Nissa, Vital force. He kills me in 3 turns. GG.
Game 3
I was tiered and after work and made some mistakes during side boarding.
He reanimate turn 2 Grizzlybrand.
Turn 3 I cast Leovold, emissary of Trest. Too late the damage was done, I did not draw path to exile and he kills me in 3 turns.
Sideboard:
Pithing needle
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Maybe duress I do not remember.
Overall I ended 0-1-2 and I am really happy with this score. First time legacy and I did not play MtG for 4 month, because of workload.
I still love GB control J
Battle report 2.
I know the field and after doing a couple of other 0-2-1 I finally know how to play the deck properly.
3 rounds weekly tournament
First Battle:
Elves 1:2
Game 1
He thinks I am on elves I open Bayou + Deathrite Shaman. He build his board quickly, Visonary, DA, crop rotation for Cradle, the bounce elf, some 1 mana guys.
I know this is my last turn and go pernicious for 1, as expected he bounce his visionary. Left with only Cradle I do not cast explorer, an go therapy for Natural order into Stoneforge mystic+batterskull. Kill him quickly
Game 2 and 3 he just go off before I can do anything. Game 3 I hit a NO with therapy he top deck a second copy :smile:
Sideboard:
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Duress
Golgari charm
Toxic deluge
Teeg
Second Battle:
Belcher 2:1
Game 1
He plays Lotus petal and pass, so I assume he is on some sort of combo. I go bayou+deathrite shaman he goes off and kill me with burning wish into tendrils.
Game2
Mulligan to 6. Bayou+ therapy naming belcher (hit). he plays LED. I go explorer pass. he goes off and put 10 goblins into play. I Abrupt Decay one goblin. Block the second one.
I take the hit go to 12. I play a deathrite shaman. He swings again eat one goblin take 8 dmg and go to 4. I play my batterskull and stabilize the board. Next turn I top deck toxic deluge.
Game 3
I mulligan to 6 go swamp therapy naming belcher (hit, lucky me). He draws some fast mana. I play savannah and pass. He goes off, I abrupt decay his chrome mox he fizzles one mana short J. We start a draw go and I am stuck on big guys and 2 lands. I kept a slow hand with early disruption. I finally manage to reach 4 mana with 3 lands and a Shaman and play Siege Rhino. He goes off again fizzle not drawing any kill condition. I kill him with siege rhino before he rebuilds he hand.
Sideboard:
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Duress
Pithing needle
Golgari charm
Toxic deluge
Teeg
Third Battle:
Enchantress 1:1
Game 1
He has double white leyline and helm of obedience me on turn 6.
Game 2
I reset the board with pernicious deeds and discard/abrupt decay his draw effects. Kill him with Rhino.
Game 3
I reset the board he plays humility turning his argothain enchantress into threat, same with my leovold and my shamans. I manage to cast a batterskull which is a 5/5 :tongue: I put some pressure on him but solitaire stops me. I finally draw another deed to reset the field keep only batterskull in play. He rebuild the board quickly. I cabal therapy for sigil of the empty throne, see Emrakul. He can cast it next turn.
Kill my germ and discard emrakul, he shuffles around 30 cards into his deck. We go to time he just drew a replenish.
Sideboard:
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Duress
Pithing needle
Rec sage
Golgari charm
Teeg
Overall I ended 1-1-1
Battle report 3.
I change my deck every week slowly tuning it into my meta and my playstyle.
4 rounds weekly tournament, a lot of new people.
First Battle:
Goblins 2:0
Game 1
Turn two stoneforge into batterskull closed the game quickly.
Game 2
Pernicious and cabal therapy remove his whole hand and board. I then play stoneforge into Jitte, and slowly control him to the win.
Sideboard:
Golgari charm
Toxic deluge
Second Battle:
UR delver a new guy 0:2
Game 1
He burns me quickly with double bolt and price of progress for 6
Game 2
I made a mistake and did not discard his bedlam reveller when I could (had to sacrifice deathrite shaman). He plays it and burns me again. Still learning.
Sideboard:
Duress
Teeg
Third Battle:
BR reanimator 0:2
Game 1
He turn one kills me.
Game 2
My opponent mullingan to 5, I go to 6 and go bayou into therapy naming reanimate (hit). he has entombed/dark ritual/ grizzlybrand. He draws a land, plays it.
I have 2 lands, green sun, cabal in graveyard. He is on top deck mode, so I go vet explorer cabal therapy (I do not know if this was the right choice), he responds with Dark ritual/entombed+grizzlybrand I discard his grizzlybrand, play stoneforge into batterskull. He top deck exhume, draws a tons of cards, bounces my board with the blue flier and kills me.
Sideboard:
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Duress
Pithing needle
Fourth Battle:
Twin+exarch 2:1 (draw)
Game 1
He turn 4 combokill me.
Game 2
I slowly kill him. He cannot go off because I have jitte with two counters to stop his exarch. Finish him with Sigarda.
Game 3
An early Leovold stops his cantrips. I put a pressure on him, the game is very grindy. We go to time, he surrender when I play sigarda. He has only 4 exarch in his deck (Lost legacy for splinter twin and Jace,TMS, snaps killed during battles against Rhino and other big guys)
Sideboard:
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Duress
Pithing needle
Carpet of flowers
Teeg
Overall I ended 2-2-0 (1-2-1)
Battle report 4
I think I have a final version of my deck. Which suits my playstyle.
3 rounds
First Battle:
Death and Taxes 2:0
Game 1
Pernicious deeds for 4 to kill all his board, it leaves Sigarda in play. Fly to the win.
Game 2
I cabal therapy his hand removing batterskull after he stoneforge for it. flash back therapy and hit 3 thalia. Kill his board with deeds, play siege rhino and trample to the win :laugh:
Sideboard:
Golgari charm
Toxic deluge
Second Battle:
Bant blade 1:2 (draw)
Game 1
He plays Jace after I reset the board with deeds. I quickly die to his chains of brainstorms into TNN.
Game 2
I play correctly deed the board and kill him with batterskull
Game 3
Very long and grindy game, we go to time. Made a mistake at the end which will result to a draw instead of his win. I was tired after work and had to pee.
I hate Jace and TNN, they are so difficult to remove from the game.
Sideboard:
Golgari charm
Toxic deluge
Carpet of flowers
Pithing Needle
Rec sage
Duress
Third battle:
BR reanimator 2:1
Game 1
He kills me turn 1
Game 2
We both mulligan to 6. I keep a hand with lands and Scavenging ooze 7 turn later he is on 6 I eat my explorer he goes to 3. I green sun for rhino :laugh: love this play.
Game 3
He mull to 5 keep and keep a good no land hand. I fetch+bayou+shaman but have no pressure so I play tower, sac shaman, green sun for Ooze leaving green open. End of his turn eat my shaman. On my turn I go Plains+stoneforge into batterskull. He draws a land finally, but wait to reanimate because of ooze. I play batterskull with stoneforge. Pressure him, he draws petal. On my turn I cabal therapy my mystic name reanimate, swing. Next turn eat mystic and finish him :laugh:
Sideboard:
Surgical extraction
Lost Legacy
Duress
Pithing needle
Overall I ended 2-1-0 (2-0-1)
Blade Fit:
1 dryad arbor
2 deathrite shaman
4 veteran explorer
3 stoneforge mystic
1 glissa
1 leovold
1 eternal witness
1 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 Sigarda
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nissa, vital force
1 Elspeth, sun’s champion
3 sensei’s divining top
1 Umezawa’s jitte
1 batterskull
3 pernicious deeds
4 cabal therapy
4 green sun zenith
3 path to exile
2 abrupt decay
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 scrubland
1 Phyrexian tower
4 windswept heath
4 polluted delta
2 swamp
3 forest
2 plains
1 island
Side:
1 scavenging ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 duress
1 toxic deluge
2 lost legacy
2 pithing needle
1 reclamation sage
2 golgari charm
1 carpet of flowers
1 surgical extraction
Some explanation, about the deck:
I started with 4 rhinos, but it did not work for me.
Kaya was good, but most of the time I used her -2 and she died next turn. Giving me only a fog.
I played Gideon ally of zen. Was not impressed.
Sakura tribe elder worked fine with 4 rhinos + blue splash, but I need a better top deck in the mid game, switched to another copy of deathrite shaman.
Atraxa completely useless, waste of money and mana, if I will have to pick another card (except the one copy Leovold) for the blue splash with one blue mana I will go for Sagu Mauler maybe Edric or another Leovold.
Moved from 2 stoneforge mystic to 3 copies, after playtests.
I think jitte and batterskull are sufficient. If I will have to pick another blade I will go for sword of body and mind or light and shadow.
I reduced the path to exile number to 3 after adding jitte.
The decks attacks the enemy from a different angle.
You force you opponent to add artefact removals and waste their best cards on Mystic. Instead of keeping good counterspells/removals for the big cards.
I was surprise by Glissa especially with the weapons.
When I was playing 4 Rhinos I had some clunky opening most of the time it was
Turn 1: Land + cabal therapy
Turn 2: Land + explorer
Which left me with 2 or 3 mana open I could only green sun zenith for shaman, ooze, sakura elder, teeg to pressure my opponent and establish the board state or play a 3 mana card form my hand. It was good if I had Leovold-> instant value. To mitigate this I played 2 Phyrexian tower.
Now I can still zenith for shaman, but turn 2 mystic + batterskull instantly trigger panic mode. Especially after a successful cabal therapy. And even if they remove the Mystic wasting abrupt decay/fatal push/swords to plowshares. I most of the time can play it next turn for 5 mana and still pressure my opponent.
I have a huge problem with Jace, the mind sculptor and TNN.
For Jace I have Pithing needle, but then they build the board and I cannot trigger Deeds.
For TNN I plan to add 2 engineered plague useful against merfolks, clerics, elves, pyromancers, goblins.
Elspeth might go out of the deck for another card probably ooze/rec sage or going back to 60 cards. So far she was very useful.
I will give a try to Volrath’s stronghold probably for a Polluted delta.
Glissa might be the second card to go.
My meta:
1 Bant Blade
2 BR reanimator
1 Eldrazi
1 4c delver
1 Maverick
2 Elves
2 Storm
1 Death and Taxes
1 Goblins
2 Enchantress
1 4c Loam
1 UR counter burn
1 Belcher
1 Burn
1 Grixis Thief
Thoughts:
I was really impressed by the success of Snic Fit, but not my style of play. Why not play the red Gearhulk? 6/6 and draw 3 or 6/6 shoot you for 15 thx to Emi o_O
Did anyone tried a Nic Fit control with ”oops I win” option like: Spike feeder + archangel of Thune (eldritch evolution), pandemonium + saprolling burst (rector/nyx fit) or Yosei + recurring nightmare(rector/nyx fit)?
I was extremely impressed with the GB build that went top 8 recently. The one with Hymn to Tourach and Liliana. The deck is very well build, you attack your opponents hand when you can still abuse eternal witness or meren. Very well constructed deck, I will add Nissa vital force and volrath’s stronghold to recover more cards from the graveyard. I think this is the deck to go. I saw the stream online and the deck looks really strong.
Omni Fit looks funny, but very clunky.
Sorry for the wall of text, mistakes, other errors.
If you have questions I will try to answer.
Good luck.
I was impressed by that list too, seems consistent. Yet, what surprised me the most is how it contradicted many of the primer's tips:
- It runs Dryad Arbor
- It runs 3 Hymn to Tourach
- It runs Liliana of the Veil
- It runs Sylvan Library and no Tops
What I interpreted is that, despite omitting these tips, the list is so straightforward that it gains a lot of consistency. I would like more debate on Hymn to Tourach because from my testing it gives place to some wicked openings. If you add Hymn to an Explorer+Therapy hand, you've got a nearly hellbent opponent by turn 2 for sure. And when you don't draw Therapy, it gives you a much needed way of forcing interaction T2.
Also the argument against Sylvan Library (that it dies to Deed) applies to Scooze too, for example, and we still play it most of the time. The fact that it isn't as mana demanding as Top on the long run is pretty big in my opinion. Plus if you can pay 4 life for a card once, you come out fine even after blowing it with Deed. I'm not saying I wouldn't run tops because later in the game, you can shuffle your deck multiple times per turn and Top is really big. It's just that I feel that early one the deck cannot afford to be spinning it because our forms of interaction are more expensive than, say, Miracles'.
I love Titania, Protector of Argoth too, and I remember watching Caleb Durward playing it in straight BG in some YouTube videos and it being hell of a clock.
List for reference:
4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
16 CREATURES
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
2 Grave Titan
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
4 Veteran Explorer
16 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Snuff Out
6 OTHER SPELLS
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
SIDEBOARD
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nature's Claim
1 Pithing Needle
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thragtusk
1 Umezawa's Jitte
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14911&d=289997&f=LE
Welcome :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Matsu
I don't see Red Gearhulk being very good in Sneak Fit. We don't have a large number of top heavy cmc threats like Big Red does. Most likely, after you've played the Gearhulk, there are 2 other 6 drops + 1 Emrakul. Flipping land, top, Veteran doesn't have much impact. Slamming Inferno Titan, on the other hand, has some pretty guaranteed impact not only on the turn he comes down but on the following turns as well. Sneaking him in typically does 6 points of precision damage along with 6+red mana combat damage. Bellower likewise has both consistency (grabbing Tracker/Witness for value) or combo-kill grabbing Empath -> Emrakul.
The recent Nyx Fit lists already have some pretty consistent combo-kill, in the form of -1/-1 effect + Living Plane. Deck has access to some powerful enchantment effects that alone will turn the tide in most matches. Really need to steer away from singletons that don't do anything on their own, and that deck comes pretty close as-is. Eldritch Evolving the Rector does sound nice, but it often would give your opponent the chance to Swords the Rector or have a DRS ready - since you typically don't have 7 mana available to cast both the Rector and Evolution on the same turn. I'd rather rely on the faster and simpler Therapy or Phyrexian Tower ways of tutoring with her.
I'm currently on this list as above, -1 Skybind +1 Nissa VF.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Lots to talk about here. I'll start with Hymn. The reason Hymn isn't usually suggested is because it requires BB, this forces you to have a Bayou opening if you want to cast something like Veteran Explorer. Even a GG spell like Courser or Eternal Witness or Ooze (to activate) forces you into the Bayou. If you open on Forest for resiliency against Wasteland, you lose the ability to cast Hymn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lueseto
Next is Dryad Arbor. It's a controversial card, I think Arbor is actually really strong though because it greatly increases the range of opening hands you can keep by adding another 4 mana sources to the deck early with GSZ. Others argue that Arbor is too fragile and slow. I'm not saying the card doesn't have risks attached but what I've noticed about Nic Fit (and more broadly, Legacy in general) is that it's a format of fragile mana bases, and the person who has the more resilient/consistent manabase wins more on average. In a deck like ours with high cost cards and little to no cantrips we can't afford to not have the extra mana.
Liliana is powerful but generally not advised. There have been builds where she's good such as in the PW heavy decks. In this list in question I don't think she was very good, and it's more that the list won inspite of itself rather than won because Liliana was the right call.
Sylvan Library though can work. I don't play Library often but I think it's a really good card. It used to see more play than it does these days. Dying to Deed isn't usually an issue because you get value off of it before Deed blows it up. The main difference is that the format has gotten more aggressive and the life loss matters more. Add in other cards which cost life like Toxic Deluge and Bob (if you're as crazy as me) and we just don't have the life to spare as much anymore.