[DTB] U/R Delver

I run an even more oddball list that has FoW in the sideboard instead of the maindeck. Daze is way too good of a spell in a deck that operates on such a low curve. I dislike FoW main because it is so bad against fair decks, and this deck is very much dependent on having enough gas to close games out. It most certainly makes my combo matchups worse, which is the trade-off that I make to ensure that I crush everything else.

I have my list posted in the R/u Sligh thread in N&D, but since that thread doesn't get much traffic, I'll post it here as well.

Lands (18)
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
2 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring

Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast

Sideboard (15)
4 Smash to Smithereens
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Seal of Removal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle


tl;dr I'd rather cut FoW instead of Daze.

Cool list, Hanni. I'm very into burn-heavy lists like this one right now to try go under all the blue DRS decks.

I'm surprised by the 18 lands given how low your curve is. Can you elaborate on the reasoning for that vs the more traditional 16 from the UR Prowess lists? Seems like you still have the cantrips to play the xerox strategy with the lower land count and avoid flooding.


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18 lands is much better for my decks tempo. I don't want to be stuck on 1 land, and I don't want to commit early game mana on cantrips to dig for land. I want to play a creature on turn one, and either two creatures or one creature and a burn spell on turn two. 18 lands helps me to more consistently make my first few land drops naturally.

Also, the extra two lands are actually burn spells. Hitting Threshold isn't too difficult by the time you're ready to convert them.

Btw, I don't actually have the density of cantrips to Xerox the same. I'm not playing any Ponder.

Hey folks,

I'm writing a primer on the UR Delver vs D&T matchup for Thraben University. Do you all have any thoughts on the matchup that you'd like to share? I've read what you've said about the matchup in the primer, but I'm always open to hearing more!

-Phil Gallagher

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Hey folks,

I'm writing a primer on the UR Delver vs D&T matchup for Thraben University. Do you all have any thoughts on the matchup that you'd like to share? I've read what you've said about the matchup in the primer, but I'm always open to hearing more!

-Phil Gallagher

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I find D&T to be one of the hardest matchups for UR Delver - I'm 2-9 lifetime against mono-white D&T with UR, despite being 55% overall against the field. 2-1 against RW, so 28% if I combine them. So it's possible I'm playing it wrong and that's part of my issue. But, my experiences about strategy and cards:

Overall strategy:
-My most common way to lose is failing to get a basic land manabase established early. We have the basics in the deck to do this (typically 2 Island 2 Mountain), but not all draws really allow it, depending on fetch configuration. I like to keep 3- or 4-land hands against a known D&T opponent if possible in order to try to avoid dying in this first subgame. But I usually am not going to send back a really nice 2-lander, and sometimes I get punished for it.
-Some of the success I've had has been trying a "ride the Delver" strategy, particularly on the play if we get it down turn 1 and flip turn 2. Especially with the reduced number of flyers in D&T lately, using Force of Will or Daze on a Swords to Plowshares can sometimes mean winning a tempo game by attacking for 3 in the air and using our 8+ removal spells to delay the equipment game on the ground.
-We are in a really good position to take advantage of increased Mirran Crusader usage, since we can get a nice tempo advantage by bolting him.

Cards and sideboarding
-Sideboarding Cuts: Force of Will/Daze (play/draw), Price of Progress. I think Price is serviceable in the matchup, since you can usually get in a hit for 4 if you time it right. But it's lower impact than the cards we're boarding in, and a bit expensive. This is not the case for RW Taxes where I think Price is quite good.
-Sideboarding Adds: Pyrokinesis (10/10), Smash to Smithereens (9/10), Abrade (8/10), Grim Lavamancer (9/10), Forked Bolt (10/10), Rough//Tumble (7/10), True-Name Nemesis (5/10).
-I think Sulfuric Vortex (3/10) is a trap because getting to 4 noncreature mana is really tough against the mana denial. I really want free or cheap spells. I'd even love to have things like Gut Shot in the board for this matchup, but there just isn't the space for it.

Hi! I dont thik the D&T matchup is that bad for UR. I have a positive record against the deck in magic online. The matchup gets much harder if they have Aether Vial active so game 1 it´s good to counter that if possible. Post board you get Smash to Smithereens to fight Vial/Equipment and side in more removal spells. I usually keep daze in on the play even if they play Cavern because you can counter a Vial or a removal spell. D&T sometimes sides in Path to Exile against us and gives free land drops which helps us with their mana denial game. Price of Progress is a nice finisher here because you will fetch basics and they usually have 2 or more nonebasic when you cast it late game. True-Name is also a card that wins many games because it prevent´s Jitte counters and lifegain from batterskull and swings past defense for the final points of damage. I dont play Sulfuric Vortex but even if I did I would not bring it in here because it would be uncastable most of the time. I think the match up is very draw depended and even but entertaining to play from both sides.

Is the discord channel dead?

I've recently seen some "UR Threshold" lists using Stifle and Wasteland popping up and i'm inclined testing something similar to see if those decks are a viable option.
Anyone has some opinion about those lists or got some testing going on?

My opinion.

Even if UR non-prowess is better positioned on the meta than prowess version, I think you are attacking the meta with a strategy so similar to Grixis delver or RUG delver that I am unsure what are the benefits over them. I would say only the mana base is the actual benefit, Grixis and RUG have a better removal and creature package because of their color, would the mana base make up for that? I don't think so, depends on the meta. If you run the list you will probably feel it is very good, but if it is better than Grixis I'm not really sure.
If you have the base from UR and wants a more tempo oriented deck, then it is pretty fine doing it even though I think you will have a 95% Grixis/RUG delver deck in terms of efficiency, what I can tell is that even though you change like 10-12 cards, the deck style completely changes UR prowess is an aggro/combo deck, it plays completely different than other delver decks, so you should first see what style of deck you want to play also.

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Originally Posted by Raizen884

My opinion.

Even if UR non-prowess is better positioned on the meta than prowess version, I think you are attacking the meta with a strategy so similar to Grixis delver or RUG delver that I am unsure what are the benefits over them. I would say only the mana base is the actual benefit, Grixis and RUG have a better removal and creature package because of their color, would the mana base make up for that? I don't think so, depends on the meta. If you run the list you will probably feel it is very good, but if it is better than Grixis I'm not really sure.
If you have the base from UR and wants a more tempo oriented deck, then it is pretty fine doing it even though I think you will have a 95% Grixis/RUG delver deck in terms of efficiency, what I can tell is that even though you change like 10-12 cards, the deck style completely changes UR prowess is an aggro/combo deck, it plays completely different than other delver decks, so you should first see what style of deck you want to play also.

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Thanks for your response.
I've been playing UR Prowess for almost two years now and even started playing Canadian Thresh (proxing the Tropicals) a few weeks ago so i'm aware of the different playstyles.
You have a valid point that this is probably just a worse RUG/Grixis Delver deck in disguise, tbh i have made that exact same comment when another user first asked about that UR Stifle deck a few weeks ago. I thought this style of deck was kind of a homebrew at first but i keeps putting up results so there may be something about it.
The problem is that RUG is still the best stifle deck out there and Grixis does the YP thing better so that leaves a cleaner manabase and the ability to run Blood Moon as advatages for straight UR.
I was just curious if someone has got some testing going on because if this build proves to be only slightly worse than Grixis/RUG i would not have to shell out for the missing Tropical islands to play Thresh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Medea_

Hey folks,

I'm writing a primer on the UR Delver vs D&T matchup for Thraben University. Do you all have any thoughts on the matchup that you'd like to share? I've read what you've said about the matchup in the primer, but I'm always open to hearing more!

-Phil Gallagher

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Hi! I feel that UR Delver is favoured against Death&Taxes. I believe that the number of creatures in Death&Taxes that don't block Stormchaser or Delver combined with the number of burn spells in UR Delver makes it very easy for UR Delver to get through for a lot of damage. That said though, I think from the DNT side you should aim to resolve Sanctum Prelate as early as possible. Sanctum Prelate, if landed while your life total is still relatively healthy, will just win the game. Stoneforge Mystic getting Sword of Fire and Ice is a great way to gain control of the board if you can keep your creatures alive. Umezawa's Jitte is scarier when you are trying to stabilize. Multiple Swords to Plowshares can deal with UR Delver's flying creatures and your plethora of ground creatures can stop Monastery Swiftspears. Mana denial draws with multiple Rishadan Ports and Thalia can be extremely good if the UR player is tight on mana. The same can be said if for a well timed Wasteland and a Thalia.

Those are just some spitballs, @Medea, please don't hesitate to ask more questions if you have more!

Has anyone had the chance to play with Webb's UR List? Basics with Wastelands:http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=17203&d=306430&f=LE

Its obviously a different strategy than prowess, but idk if this is thread to bring up discussion. x]

I like the fact that it has the basics so that you can still play magic (blood moon/wastelands) while also giving you solid threats like Young Pyro and TNN. You can also shift gears during the match relatively easy.

How do you guys deal with Storm decks? I think Ur Delver does not have a good matchup against Storm right? Currently I play 1 Pyrostatic Pillar and 2 Flusterstorm in the board vs. Storm. Should I play more or is is enough? Hows the matchup in general?

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Yet another small note on the storm MU:
The UR MU is my best MU at the moment.

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It's almost impossible to lose with ANT against UR if they don't bring in at least 8 useful cards.

From the rare occasions where I played UR myself against ANT, I brought in around 10 cards to fight their combo: 2 SE, 2 Flusterstorm, 3 Pyroblast, 1 Eidolon, 2 Spell Pierce.

Postboard, I'd opt rather for a faster hand than a disruption heavy because racing the combo or at least pressuring them is the best way of winning here.

I'm preparing for a couple of larger tournaments in my area and that's how my list looks like:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

1 Abrade
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage


I choosed to play the 4th Stormchaser over the 4th Chain Lightning for more consistency. I normally don't want to start with a hand full of Burn and Counters and before adding something like Lavamancer or TNN I'd rather take the 4th Stormchaser. Also flying is still a huge thing in 1.5. The rest is pretty standard. To the board:
I do expect a lot of DnT, Stoneblade, ANT and 4c builds. I think last year this 3-4 deck types were played quite a lot. Against Stoneblade and DnT I'm running 3 cards against artifacts and an additional Vortex for Lifegain. Against ANT I play 2 Flusterstorm which also help in other matchups and a Pillar/Eidolon split. Since ANT plays Cabal Therapy the split is needed here. Also Surigcal extraction should work good against ANT. I played against a couple of 4c builds and I honestly do like Blood Moon more than PoP. Reason for this is since 4c is running Wastelands I will fetch to Basics anyway and PoP sometimes does not make "that" much damage since Wasteland can target itself. Blood Moon just kills the entire deck while PoP is just an other Burn spell without being a removal. Also Blood Moon should protect me better against Lands or Aggro Loam and their Dark Depths. I think Ur Delver will not be the best deck anyway in this meta but its the only deck I can build with my cards except for Burn.

Been newly experimenting with this deck on MTGO. Seems to me that we are advantaged in most fair matchups, particularly where PoP is hitting for at least 4.

The issue I am having is with combo/burn. It seems like we do not have enough interaction in these matchups... Not sure how to remedy the situation, but storm, show and tell, and burn seem really tough to me. We can sculpt the board to remedy this as best we can, but is there any concessions made in the main to meet these issues? Or am I just off in my assessment?

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Originally Posted by Mattincognito

Been newly experimenting with this deck on MTGO. Seems to me that we are advantaged in most fair matchups, particularly where PoP is hitting for at least 4.

The issue I am having is with combo/burn. It seems like we do not have enough interaction in these matchups... Not sure how to remedy the situation, but storm, show and tell, and burn seem really tough to me. We can sculpt the board to remedy this as best we can, but is there any concessions made in the main to meet these issues? Or am I just off in my assessment?

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I don't think Burn is as bad as you think it is. You have permission to stop some of their burn (Daze in particular being very good early) and you have enough pressure to contest their pressure and potentially out race them. Eidolon can sometimes be a pain, but can also be a pretty sharp double edged sword.

Combo decks such as Storm and Show and Tell can be difficult though. If you are looking to have some dedicated hate in the board for these matchups, your best option is probably Eidolon of the Great Revel/Pyrostatic Pillar and more counterspells.

In an mtggoldfish article ( https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...-god-of-legacy ) 3 UR Delver lists were highlighted for being in the T16 of a 265 player event in Japan. 4 UR delver decks in total made the T16 ( http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/e...ory/detail/216 )! Only one deck was the Monastery Swiftspear/Stormchaser Mage prowess build with 16 lands, while the others were all 18-land builds with 4 Wasteland. Of the bigger land builds, one splashed an Underground Sea for Cabal Therapy, one played Stifle, and the other played a pair of Spell Pierce alongside a full 8 Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. These bigger-land builds all ran 2-3 Grim Lavamancer, 1-2 True-Name Nemesis, and 3-4 Young Pyromancer. All of these decks were playing at least 2-3 basic lands in order to take advantage of Blood Moon and/or Price of Progress.

It seems like there are many builds being tested for this archetype at the moment and it would be nice to get some data as to what people have been testing and playing. What is your current build? Has anyone found success with the wasteland/stifle package? Who has been rockin' young pyromancer or even Chart a Course? Is anyone an advocate of sticking to the lean and mean prowess build? I can't help but wonder if a stifle/waste version of this deck should just be RUG, and if a young peezy/true-name version should just be grixis delver. However, the Japanese 18-land, "slower" lists did take advantage of the two-color mana base to punish opponents' mana bases. Maybe they are on to something...

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by montu15467

In an mtggoldfish article ( https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...-god-of-legacy ) 3 UR Delver lists were highlighted for being in the T16 of a 265 player event in Japan. 4 UR delver decks in total made the T16 ( http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/e...ory/detail/216 )! Only one deck was the Monastery Swiftspear/Stormchaser Mage prowess build with 16 lands, while the others were all 18-land builds with 4 Wasteland. Of the bigger land builds, one splashed an Underground Sea for Cabal Therapy, one played Stifle, and the other played a pair of Spell Pierce alongside a full 8 Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. These bigger-land builds all ran 2-3 Grim Lavamancer, 1-2 True-Name Nemesis, and 3-4 Young Pyromancer. All of these decks were playing at least 2-3 basic lands in order to take advantage of Blood Moon and/or Price of Progress.

It seems like there are many builds being tested for this archetype at the moment and it would be nice to get some data as to what people have been testing and playing. What is your current build? Has anyone found success with the wasteland/stifle package? Who has been rockin' young pyromancer or even Chart a Course? Is anyone an advocate of sticking to the lean and mean prowess build? I can't help but wonder if a stifle/waste version of this deck should just be RUG, and if a young peezy/true-name version should just be grixis delver. However, the Japanese 18-land, "slower" lists did take advantage of the two-color mana base to punish opponents' mana bases. Maybe they are on to something...

Thoughts?

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I like that list, more tempo, with young pyromancer, lavamancer and true name, but why is the reason to play that instead grixis delver?
imo if u play u/r is take advantage being more aggresive, if u want play tempo deck i think grixis delver is better
thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Kirt

I like that list, more tempo, with young pyromancer, lavamancer and true name, but why is the reason to play that instead grixis delver?
imo if u play u/r is take advantage being more aggresive, if u want play tempo deck i think grixis delver is better
thoughts?

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I have said the same thing several times. I just haven't said it much online, just in person a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by montu15467

In an mtggoldfish article ( https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...-god-of-legacy ) 3 UR Delver lists were highlighted for being in the T16 of a 265 player event in Japan. 4 UR delver decks in total made the T16 ( http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/e...ory/detail/216 )! Only one deck was the Monastery Swiftspear/Stormchaser Mage prowess build with 16 lands, while the others were all 18-land builds with 4 Wasteland. Of the bigger land builds, one splashed an Underground Sea for Cabal Therapy, one played Stifle, and the other played a pair of Spell Pierce alongside a full 8 Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning. These bigger-land builds all ran 2-3 Grim Lavamancer, 1-2 True-Name Nemesis, and 3-4 Young Pyromancer. All of these decks were playing at least 2-3 basic lands in order to take advantage of Blood Moon and/or Price of Progress.

It seems like there are many builds being tested for this archetype at the moment and it would be nice to get some data as to what people have been testing and playing. What is your current build? Has anyone found success with the wasteland/stifle package? Who has been rockin' young pyromancer or even Chart a Course? Is anyone an advocate of sticking to the lean and mean prowess build? I can't help but wonder if a stifle/waste version of this deck should just be RUG, and if a young peezy/true-name version should just be grixis delver. However, the Japanese 18-land, "slower" lists did take advantage of the two-color mana base to punish opponents' mana bases. Maybe they are on to something...

Thoughts?

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I recently switched to this build and I can say with full confidence that this is by far superior to ANY UR Delver build in the current meta.

The deck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Chain Lightning
4 Force of Will
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stifle

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
2 Abrade
1 Price of Progress
1 Blood Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

I played 2 leagues, went 3-2 and 5-0 before I realized that this deck was absolute gas and I needed to gather data. So today I played 3 more leagues and kept the data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Just to give a little background, I've played all the flavors of delver, was really good at RUG maybe 4/5 years ago I play on and off and recently came back to playing magic again.

What makes the deck good:

Grim Lavamancer
In a meta full of Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer is king. In Grixis mirrors where you both have DRS, its a subtle dance for who gets mana/life. With Lavamancer, there's no dance, they either kill the lavamancer or lose their whole board.
I used to board 1 Lavamancer in my Grixis Delver deck just for this reason.

Basic Lands
Not getting wastelanded out of the game is a great feeling. It does inconvenience you sometimes when you brainstorm and you look at your other land and you wish it was something else. But you know whats more inconvenient? Not having lands.

Stifle
This hits a lot of stuff besides fetch lands.

The deck plays like RUG(the stifle build) except you have basics and grim lavamancers. You're losing Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose and neither is very good right now. You have more reach instead thanks to chain lightnings & Snapcaster Mage.

On the differences to the prowess builds, when playing the prowess creatures, I often had situations where you cant really trigger prowess on your turn(hand full of counters) or you draw them late and they're garbage.

On grixis, losing Deathrite is pretty big, but the tradeoff is Lavamancer, which beats opposing Deathrites. Gurmag Angler is also a card that is hard to stop, unless you have a live Lavamancer, in which case its merely a bolt away from dying. Your only real problem is TNN, which you also play, and you play stifle/daze/waste so getting to resolve a 3 mana spell should be pretty difficult. It does hurt the reanimator matchup so I play 4 surgicals in the side. That said I've played 4 BR reanimator matches and lost only 1. Dredge should be kinda bad though.

I have started working with a good friend of mine on UR Delver trying to develop the deck farther. I could have something new to show off soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tora-kun

I recently switched to this build and I can say with full confidence that this is by far superior to ANY UR Delver build in the current meta.

The deck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Chain Lightning
4 Force of Will
4 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Island
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Stifle

4 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Forked Bolt
2 Abrade
1 Price of Progress
1 Blood Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Divert
1 Spell Pierce

I played 2 leagues, went 3-2 and 5-0 before I realized that this deck was absolute gas and I needed to gather data. So today I played 3 more leagues and kept the data:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Just to give a little background, I've played all the flavors of delver, was really good at RUG maybe 4/5 years ago I play on and off and recently came back to playing magic again.

What makes the deck good:

Grim Lavamancer
In a meta full of Deathrite Shaman, Grim Lavamancer is king. In Grixis mirrors where you both have DRS, its a subtle dance for who gets mana/life. With Lavamancer, there's no dance, they either kill the lavamancer or lose their whole board.
I used to board 1 Lavamancer in my Grixis Delver deck just for this reason.

Basic Lands
Not getting wastelanded out of the game is a great feeling. It does inconvenience you sometimes when you brainstorm and you look at your other land and you wish it was something else. But you know whats more inconvenient? Not having lands.

Stifle
This hits a lot of stuff besides fetch lands.

The deck plays like RUG(the stifle build) except you have basics and grim lavamancers. You're losing Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose and neither is very good right now. You have more reach instead thanks to chain lightnings & Snapcaster Mage.

On the differences to the prowess builds, when playing the prowess creatures, I often had situations where you cant really trigger prowess on your turn(hand full of counters) or you draw them late and they're garbage.

On grixis, losing Deathrite is pretty big, but the tradeoff is Lavamancer, which beats opposing Deathrites. Gurmag Angler is also a card that is hard to stop, unless you have a live Lavamancer, in which case its merely a bolt away from dying. Your only real problem is TNN, which you also play, and you play stifle/daze/waste so getting to resolve a 3 mana spell should be pretty difficult. It does hurt the reanimator matchup so I play 4 surgicals in the side. That said I've played 4 BR reanimator matches and lost only 1. Dredge should be kinda bad though.

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Thank you for the response! Meta-influenced rationale is what I was looking for :). I've been testing a very similar version of the deck, but with main-deck Spell Pierce instead of Stifle. I think I'm going to give Stifle a try, and I know it's going to feel great getting someone on a storm trigger or a fetch activation!

Hey guys, I will play a couple of big tournaments in January. This is the build I will play:

Main deck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Bedlam Reveler
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Price of Progress
1 Blood Moon
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Abrade
1 Sulfuric Vortex

My sideboard is designed to make my bad matchups better such as Stoneblade, D&T and Storm and ignore the ok to decent matchups. I do expect a lot of these decks and and since my matchups against most of the blue decks are fine (except Reanimator) I focus on the really bad ones. After playing UR Delver for a while now I realized that certain cards like Batterskull, Chalice of the Void, Punishing Fire or simply Storm just destroys UR because our gameplay is strictly monotonic and we are missing flexible cards like better Removal, Counter, Discard and Wastelands. This is the reason for focusing on these decks in my board. Also to add on my build:
1. Bedlam Reveler is probably the most insane creature in this build. Reveler rescued my ass sooo many times by drawing 3 new cards. In the past I played the original list with 2 Revelers -1 TNN -1 Lavamancer +1 Chain but I was missing a Lavamancer main and since Reveler doesn't harmonize good with Lavamancer I added an other TNN.
2. I play 3 Chain and 1 Lavamancer split instead of 4 Chain like the classical list. Lavamancer is also quite underestimated. He shuts down a lot of decks like Burn (their creatures), D&T and is also pretty strong against all Shaman builds since he generates a removal spell for their Shaman or 2 damage out of nothing (having cards in your GY is in this deck not a problem at all). The time I play Lavamancer the opponent always Force of Will it or removes it instantly, I think its way better than the 4. Chain Lightning. I would actually like to play 2/2 split between Chain and Lavamancer but since its not working out with Reveler that good I keep them both at 1 (maybe I will test it with 2 Revelers and 1 Lavamancer main deck and cut the TNN). The rest of the list is standard. Against most of the decks I can board at least 4 cards which I think is good. Here the way I probably board:

- Storm: +2 Flusterstorm +1 Eidolon +1 Pillar +2 Surgical +1 Hydroblast -2 PoP -1 TNN -4 Daze (Daze will not counter anything since Storm always has the mana to pay it right?!)
- Death&Taxes: +2 Smash +1 Abrade +1 Vortex -4 Daze or FoW (depends whether I'm on the play or not) -> Here you can think about taking out PoP also, depends which lands I see. Its not worth to keep for 3-4 Rishadan Ports and 4 Wateland, if I see Karakas and Cavern of Souls I keep them)
- Stoneblade: +2 Smash +1 Abrade +1 Vortex +2 Pyroblast -Daze or FoW -1-2 Gitax Probe -> also depends which version of Stoneblade and what I saw on the board allready
- Burn: +2 Flusterstorm +1 Hydroblast -2 PoP -1 FoW
- Grixis Delver: +1 PoP +1 Blood Moon +2 Pyroblast +1 Vortex (I still test that card against Grixis) -4 FoW -1 Probe
- 4c Control: Probably the same as Grixis Delver
- Reanimator: +2 Surgical +2 Flusterstorm +1 Vortex -1 TNN -1 Reveler -1 Lavamancer -2 PoP -> if its a blue Reanimator list I can think about Pyroblast also. Still Pyroblast does not have a proper target since all their reanimate spells are black so I am not sure about it. Vortex helps against Griselbrand not having lifelink, I outraced a lying Griselbrand once with a T3 Vortex followed by T4 double Bolt and double Swifstspear attack (was 10 damage with Vortex wich was enough).
- Sneak Attack: +2 Flusterstorm +2 Pyroblast +1 Hydroblast +2 Surgical -2 PoP -1 TNN -1 Lavamancer -3 Gitax Probe

I am not really sure how good my board works against decks like Elves, Goblins, Eldrazi, Dredge and other Rouge decks. I tried to focus on the decks which are played alot. Also are my board decision good against Storm or do I always keep the Daze postboard? How about Stoneblade? I am not this experienced against these 2 deck types. Would like to have some feedback :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

I have started working with a good friend of mine on UR Delver trying to develop the deck farther. I could have something new to show off soon.

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This is a list I have come to based on my friend's list. There are a few differences and I will explain some of my card choices and why I think those cards are good.

List
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Stormchaser Mage
2 Bedlam Reveler

Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Force of Will
4 Daze

Lands
1 Arid Mesa
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Since this deck is still a work in progress, I have decided I would not take too much to developing the sideboard until I have a solid main deck. This list is built to go on the "Zoo" plan that UR Delver can employ, however current lists just don't do it enough.

The purpose of Preordain in this list is to provide more ways of finding an early threat so we can begin to pressure our opponent. Preordain also helps us keep the cantrip train rolling when we have prowess creatures in play which in turn also increases the potential of very explosive turns.

Price of Progress is often icing on the cake. We don't need it. Price of Progress is also terrible from behind, especially when your opponent is committed to playing around it.

Force of Will can often drag us down. Having Force stuck in your hand with nothing to do with it is pretty terrible, due to most of your threats being pretty anemic in a vacuum. I am not sure about only 2 Forces in the main, just because of stuff like Chalice of the Void being a card that just shuts us down and combo decks also being a thing. What you do gain from cutting Forces is a much faster clock, which still gives you game against combo.

For those of you who have a taste of my opinions on this deck you likely know that I strongly believe Reveler is not a main deck card. The biggest problem I have with Bedlam Reveler is that it is fairly unreliable. It can sometimes be very difficult to cast, and sometimes it will be pretty easy to just cast it while curving out and just throw gasoline on the fire that is already burning. I believe this list has the capability to reliably cast Bedlam Reveler, because you are just casting most of your spells, and you will be able to churn through your deck with cantrips and find requisite mana, and fill up the graveyard fairly quickly and quite reliably with all those cantrips.

I play a lot of Delver and a lot of different styles of Delver, and when building my Delver lists, I generally do not go any more than 14 creatures in the main deck. I realized that UR Delver already has a higher chance of flipping Delvers just due to the higher count of fetchlands in the deck and the lower count of total lands. This has led me to believe that you could likely get away with playing a 15th creature in the deck, which I am evidently trying.

My friend did not send me a list with Bedlam Reveler in the main deck. I decided to take his list a step further and try to make Bedlam Reveler a main deck card in his list.
Friend's list for reference
Creatures (14)

4 – Delver of Secrets
4 – Monastery Swiftspear
3 – Stormchaser Mage
3 – Soul-Scar Mage

Spells (29)

4 – Brainstorm
4 – Ponder
4 – Lightning Bolt
4 – Daze
4 – Gitaxian Probe
4 – Chain Lightning
3 – Preordain
2 – Force of Will

Lands (17)

3 – Volcanic Island
2 – Island
1 – Mountain
4 – Scalding Tarn
3 – Flooded Strand
2 – Misty Rainforest
2 – Polluted Delta

Sideboard (15)

2 – Abrade
2 – Blood Moon
2 – Force of Will
2 – Submerge
2 – Surgical Extraction
2 – Grim Lavamancer
1 – Relic of Progenitus
1 – Price of Progress
1 – Bedlam Reveler

Now, let the discussion begin.

Hey TheManWithaPlan, honestly I don't think you need 11 cantrips and an other 4 Gitaxian Probe. With a cantrip in general and especially Ur Delver you should always ask yourself: "What do you wanna find?" either Burn, creature or a counter spell in rare cases. And this where I think Ur Delver just shines compared to other Ux Delver decks, finding Burn or creatures always seem to work fine for this deck. You dont need that much of cantrips because the gameplan of Ur is just so straight forward, Id rather have a card in hand which actually does something than a cantrip. Also playing Ponder and finding more Brainstorm, Preordain or Gitaxian Probe just doesn't seem right. I still like having a full playset of FoW in the deck. Often we play against Ub Reanimator, Sneak Attack, Food Chain or Aggro Loam and FoW is just a card we must have against combo and Chalice of the Void, especially pre board. You can go down to 3 FoW but I doubt 2 will be enough. After playing this deck now for a longer time we often loose pretty easy against unfair decks, Ur Delver is just missing a lot of flexibility so FoW is necessary to stay in the game sometimes. The point with Price of Progress is: It always hits for 4 damage which is nice. But the fear of PoP and the pressure opponents have to play around PoP makes it even better. My opponent constantly thinks about getting PoP in his face so he will keep his Wasteland untapped to sac it without a target when we have basics on the board (against D&T for example). Just for that I would keep 1-2 in the deck. About Soul-Scar Mage: It's just Swiftspear in worse. There is no need in to add it. I tested it and always hated it and I even played with Grim Lavamancer to make some tricks on the board. But Soul-Scar Mage is just not good enough. Slow and comes for 2, I really think its a weak card. I do see sometimes that problem with Stormchaser Mage, 2 mana for a 2 damage beater most of the time. But since Stormchaser is flying it does its damage consitstently so Stormchaser is still acceptable. Also you add an other 3 cantrips + an other land? I really dont like the list mate :tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Hey TheManWithaPlan, honestly I don't think you need 11 cantrips and an other 4 Gitaxian Probe. With a cantrip in general and especially Ur Delver you should always ask yourself: "What do you wanna find?" either Burn, creature or a counter spell in rare cases. And this where I think Ur Delver just shines compared to other Ux Delver decks, finding Burn or creatures always seem to work fine for this deck. You dont need that much of cantrips because the gameplan of Ur is just so straight forward, Id rather have a card in hand which actually does something than a cantrip. Also playing Ponder and finding more Brainstorm, Preordain or Gitaxian Probe just doesn't seem right. I still like having a full playset of FoW in the deck. Often we play against Ub Reanimator, Sneak Attack, Food Chain or Aggro Loam and FoW is just a card we must have against combo and Chalice of the Void, especially pre board. You can go down to 3 FoW but I doubt 2 will be enough. After playing this deck now for a longer time we often loose pretty easy against unfair decks, Ur Delver is just missing a lot of flexibility so FoW is necessary to stay in the game sometimes. The point with Price of Progress is: It always hits for 4 damage which is nice. But the fear of PoP and the pressure opponents have to play around PoP makes it even better. My opponent constantly thinks about getting PoP in his face so he will keep his Wasteland untapped to sac it without a target when we have basics on the board (against D&T for example). Just for that I would keep 1-2 in the deck. About Soul-Scar Mage: It's just Swiftspear in worse. There is no need in to add it. I tested it and always hated it and I even played with Grim Lavamancer to make some tricks on the board. But Soul-Scar Mage is just not good enough. Slow and comes for 2, I really think its a weak card. I do see sometimes that problem with Stormchaser Mage, 2 mana for a 2 damage beater most of the time. But since Stormchaser is flying it does its damage consitstently so Stormchaser is still acceptable. Also you add an other 3 cantrips + an other land? I really dont like the list mate :tongue:

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Honestly, the current prowess oriented versions of UR Delver are somewhat underwhelming to me at the moment. There is an evident problem with those lists in that the creatures are not great alone, and I have trouble getting enough pressure early enough to press an advantage. The games where UR Delver actually looks like a good deck is when it has its "Zoo" draws. The trouble I have is that traditional UR lists just don't have the "Zoo" draw consistently enough. Your threats being bad in a vacuum doesn't help this much either. This list aims to maximize the consistency of these "Zoo" draws occurring. I also feel that if I am able to reliably cast Bedlam Reveler in the main deck, I have fixed the problem of my threats being fairly bad in a vacuum. Extra cantrips are mostly meant to find your threats and try to get the zoo draw as many times as possible. Honestly a Soul-Scar Mage misses the first 2 points of a Swiftspear. I tried it a while back and I really liked it in the deck. If Czech Pile wasn't as popular, I would be playing Soul-Scar in the stock prowess lists. I was skeptical of this list at first of this list. I suggest you try it, don't be quick to dismiss it.

I actually played Zoo back in 2009-2010 in 1.5 and Extended (Modern nowadays) where blue was not that OP and Zoo was the best aggro beat down deck at this time. I do get your point, T1 Delver followed by Swiftspear and an other Delver in T2 and the rest Burn is the best hand you can draw. Zoo played exactly like that. I think what Ur Delver does better compared to Zoo back in the days is that its a Counterburn deck, you can actually stop unfair decks which Zoo always had bad matchups against. So the mix between being and aggro deck with Burn spells but also quite enough counter to stop unfair decks is where Ur Delver is. And cutting FoW and Burn for an other sorcery speed cantrip is just not good enough. Also I tested Soul-Scar Mage before, it really was just a bad one drop which has no place in a format next to Deathrite Shaman and Delver imho. I also agree on Ur Delver being quite underwhelming sometimes. This is actually why its not Tier 1 and as long as Deathrite Shaman stays in 1.5 Ur Delver will not become Tier 1 except they print another crazy card for that deck. I remember that one game against Reanimator which my opponent had Griselbrand on the board and he was on 2 life. I just needed any Burn spell to kill him and played Ponder, found land, Stormchaser and Brainstorm, still had a fetchland in my hand, took the brainstorm, played my fetchland to shuffle, played Brainstorm to find Delver, Probe and Ponder again. And my list plays 10 burn spells. I really don't see how more cantrips are making this deck any better. If the creatures wouldn't have Prowess I would get rid of the Gitax Probes and add even more Burn spells, but Probes really do work well with Swiftspear and Stormchaser and also in the Pyromancer builds.

I also think that Ur Prowess lacks a lot of consistency. Thats why I'm moving away from Prowess a little bit and try Ur Pyromancer. Dont have a list yet since I cannot decide between Wasteland and maybe 3 Stifle and on the other side Price of Progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I also think that Ur Prowess lacks a lot of consistency.

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This is my point exactly. I honestly don't mind cantripping into oblivion with 2 prowess creatures on board. It just means I get to go off again next turn with all the cards in my hand. A lot of times I have lost are due to me not being able to find enough creatures to press an advantage. This isn't a burn deck, we can't win the game by resolving 7 bolts. The Preordains are meant to find my creatures on turn 1 and turn 2 at the latest there should be a creature on board. The extra Preordains are meant to mitigate the number of losses I take due to not drawing enough creatures. This deck wins with creatures supplemented by burn spells that can finish the opponent off. The purpose of this list is to try to mitigate the consistency issue with UR Delver by adding more creatures and ways to find our creatures.

@IamHANDSOME:
I hope for some charted course action if you go down the pyromamcer route, maybe some TNN for another reliable attacker? I think it was Bob Huang or Jarvis Yu who pilotted a list that splashed a single usea for sideboard therapies since combo in general is a bad matchup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

This is my point exactly. I honestly don't mind cantripping into oblivion with 2 prowess creatures on board. It just means I get to go off again next turn with all the cards in my hand. A lot of times I have lost are due to me not being able to find enough creatures to press an advantage. This isn't a burn deck, we can't win the game by resolving 7 bolts. The Preordains are meant to find my creatures on turn 1 and turn 2 at the latest there should be a creature on board. The extra Preordains are meant to mitigate the number of losses I take due to not drawing enough creatures. This deck wins with creatures supplemented by burn spells that can finish the opponent off. The purpose of this list is to try to mitigate the consistency issue with UR Delver by adding more creatures and ways to find our creatures.

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Yeah I really do get it. But adding more cantrips into that list will not make the deck any better in general. Just some Prowess creature in particular. Thats why I said Ur Delver is just not Tier 1 right now. It lacks at least 1 other consistent beater like Delver. All the other builds have Deathrite Shaman and this guy is the most powerful 1 drop creature in Legacy right now. If Ur Delver makes anything better than Grixis or other Delver decks then its Burn and especially PoP. If I cut the Burn spells allready and try to make just Prowess creatures more powerful and consistens, I rather play a different deck with more powerful and consistent creatures in the first place.

Quote:

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I hope for some charted course action if you go down the pyromamcer route, maybe some TNN for another reliable attacker? I think it was Bob Huang or Jarvis Yu who pilotted a list that splashed a single usea for sideboard therapies since combo in general is a bad matchup.

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I was also thinking about this but when adding a b-splash you can just go down the road furher and where do you end up? At Grixis again :laugh: I am still a huge fan of Grim Lavamancer though, I know he isa consistent pinger and does in the right deck almost the same as Deathrite Shaman (obviously with waaaay less flexibility). Tomorrow I will test this build against Burn, Grixis and Sneak Attack and let you guys know about it:

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

@IamHANDSOME Thanks for the discussion on this list. I appreciate the feedback! Although I don't full agree with you on some points I am glad we were able to see both sides of this argument. I do ask that anyone who wishes to discuss this build of the deck actually try it, so that we can all have a solid understanding of the deck rather than just theorycrafting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheManWithaPlan

@IamHANDSOME Thanks for the discussion on this list. I appreciate the feedback! Although I don't full agree with you on some points I am glad we were able to see both sides of this argument. I do ask that anyone who wishes to discuss this build of the deck actually try it, so that we can all have a solid understanding of the deck rather than just theorycrafting.

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Tomorrow Ill test the Pyromancer list I sent above and hopefully after christmas I will get to yours list ;)

Hello everyone,

I recently tested a build based on the list Bob Huang played back with Treasure Cruise just with Chart A Course instead:

Lands (18)
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic
1 USea
4 Wasteland
7 U Fetches
1 R Fetch

Creatures (12)
4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Pyromancer

Spells (30)
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Probe
4 Chart A Course
4 Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Daze
4 FoW

I also have a SB with red blasts, Blood Moon, Pithing Needle and other hate. The black splash is for 2 Cabal Therapy and eventually Surgical, although in these MUs life usually don't matter.
Despite the list was straight forward, results were underwhelming. Chart a Course doesn't work well with Swiftspears Prowess trigger and Sorcery speed for 2 Mana wasn't the same as a Treasure Cruise at all (no surprise here). The deck is simply not fast enough to outcompete Midrange decks featuring DRS and Leovold or TNN and Knight (at least you can chump block).

I agree with previous posts about Prowess lists being inconsistent. I came to the same conclusion that DRS needs to be dealt with right away and a possible inclusion will be Lavamancer as it also fights Thalia, which is super annoying to spent your removal on.
I can also see that each alteration of the Prowess list, which moves away from a Burn style deck, need to have some sort of advantage to choose over traditional Grixis. This is mainly your mana base. Playing basics is a huge upside and enables Blood Moon. Your own Wastelands imporve Daze and possible Spell Pierces as long as mana dorks are taken care of.

I will also give a more mid-game oriented Young Pyromancer build a try, with a coupld of TNNs as well as MD Jitte to see if this deck can have an edge against Grixis and Leovold lists...

Thanks for keeping this threat alive and all the input over the last couple of month!

@BigBopper:

How is Chart a Course working out with Prowess? Its kind of the opposite you want right? And why only 2 creatures? Maybe cut the Swiftspears, add 2 Lavamancer and 2 TNN for it and a single Snapcaster and I can see the Chart a Course with much better value.

To all:
Since Uw Miracles is getting better, what are board cards against it for Ur Delver? How is this matchup anyway? Anybody tested it before and wanna share their board and experiences?

I've toyed around with the following list a bit

14 lands:
4 scalding tarn
2 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
1 island
1 mountain
3 volcanic island
1 underground sea

14 creatures:
4 swiftspear
4 delver
4 pyromancer
2 TNN

32 spells:
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 gitaxian probe
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 chart a course
4 bolt
4 lightning

sideboard:
2 grim lavamancer
4 cabal therapy
2 smash to smithereens
1 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
2 flusterstorm
2 pyroblast

Tried it against a bunch of decks in the practice room before deciding whether to give it a shot in a league. Decided against it after around 10 matches. I admit this deck might need 1 more land and the sideboard might not be ideal, but I still recognized the serious flaws this deck still has: It requires too much synergy while not having good answers against common threats like strix and chalice, but also counterbalance, TNN etc.
I won two matches against burn and lost a bunch against br reanimator and 4-strix-midrange, but mostly against miracles which currently has a second rising on mtgo, now again with counterbalance.
That matchup is seriously nigh unwinnable, even with TNN.

So how has chart a course been? Two words: Clunky and underwhelming. Ask yourself: Would you play Night's whisper in UR delver if it was 1u? I think no even though the black sorcery would be better. Drawing these cards is just too big of a tempo loss, it makes this deck so slow it now has to compete with all these value-decks. The fact that you can't use the card as a draw-2 when looking for a new threat is also really annoying since it's our threats that get countered, removed and discarded on sight.

I'm back playing with deathrite shaman...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agrippa91

I won two matches against burn and lost a bunch against br reanimator and 4-strix-midrange, but mostly against miracles which currently has a second rising on mtgo, now again with counterbalance.
That matchup is seriously nigh unwinnable, even with TNN.

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How is the miracle matchup? What makes it THAT bad? What cards would you like in the miracles matchups to board in?

You definitely want Sulfuric Vortex against Miracles. Lavamancer is another strong card in that MU.

I agree to Chart a Course being cluncy, primarly since it's a sorcery. Prowess isn't the biggest drawback-I'm happy to attack with Swiftspear and fake a spell or two in my hand to do a point of damage and play Chart post combat. Just drawing into Swiftspear with Chart is an issue.

I came to the same conclusion and replaced the Swiftspears with Lavamancers and TNN (2 each). Maybe going down to 3 Charts and adding a Jitte or Snapcaster is worth a shot. I'll give it a try and post my results.

Regarding Miracles MU: Resolving Winter Orb against Miracles is a blast, Vortex is fine and I can even see a single Cavern of Souls (naming Human) for Delver, Pyromancer, Lavamancer and Snapcaster.

Well I think if you do play with Chart a Course, you aren't playing "UR Prowess", I think the card is great, but like many saw here, you are talking about a different shell, getting out of combo going to a midrangish shell. I think both are bad against Miracles, but being more midrange gives you more gas to fight the late game where UR Prowess is very soft to early wipes. I still prefer UR Prowess because of the style of the deck, and that one I don't play Chart, I think even though Miracles MU is worse, I still feel the UR Prowess list better against 4c Control and Grixis Delver which are 2 very played decks, I guess its more of a preference to what you want to play.

Looks like U/R Delver took down the SCG Classic yesterday with a Prowess + Reveler/Serpent list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=118082
I don't know for sure whether they played out the top 8 since sometimes that doesn't happen after a long Classic, but a cool result nonetheless!