Same deck went 3-1 in the Prelim: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...06-05#minest_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Packing the disruption of Esper Sentinel + Ethersworn Canonist next to the Affinity/Steel Stompy clock is interesting.
Printable View
Same deck went 3-1 in the Prelim: https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...06-05#minest_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Packing the disruption of Esper Sentinel + Ethersworn Canonist next to the Affinity/Steel Stompy clock is interesting.
Found a video of the winner in action:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1046572201
First match starts at ~4:10, finals match starts at ~6:10.
Holy crap, this deck is insane.
Did they realize Urza's Saga didn't need to literally capture the power level of the Urza's Saga block?
That's gotta be the best use of both Esper Sentinel and Urza's Saga I've seen so far.
I like how the "fail case" of the deck (G1 the first match) is putting up enough gas to beat through 4 Terminus.
That was probably the most impressive part - fighting through multiple Terminus and planeswalkers like a champ while still being a massive threat. Most other decks would have been toast long before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I wouldn't be surprised if they did miss the double activation of Urza's Saga during playtesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Trinket Mage 2U: Opponent discards a blue card from hand. If not, create a 2/2 and tutor 0-1 cmc artifact to hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Urza's Saga 0: Can't be countered. Create 2 5/5 constructs and tutor 0-1 cmc artifact to battlefield. Also, T: Add 1.
Slight power creep.
You could compare it to Pack Rat that you don't have to discard for too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Trinket Mage has less limitations in what it can fetch.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Urza's Saga is essentially a 3-for-1 since it gives two extra beaters and replaces itself, probably with something that can generate even more card advantage.
Urza’s Saga is utterly insane in artifact decks. And aside from mox opal and the artifact land, every thing else is modern legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Saga might well be the first card from MH2 that gets banned.
Esper Sentinel is also incredibly powerful as a 1 drop and is going to be a staple of most aggressive decks that play white. Its a one drop that demands to be killed asap, and requires atleast 2 mana to do it. Pure tempo. I really should get around to splashing white into Vaka Nought and testing Esper Sentinel maindeck like I posted back when that card was spoiled.
Saga compromises their mana, and artifact decks are notoriously soft to any hate. In the case of the deck that won the challenge, we note the inability to run City of Traitors, the lack of Chalice, and the lack of Karn. This deck is not nearly as scary Emry Cannon's LED/Echo exploits; on the Ancient Tomb side of things, Echo is more likely to be banned.
Their trick yesterday was putting Nettlecyst on Esper Sentinel. When you don't plan against that CA cheese, you're going to get drowned by it. Urza's Saga is there doing basically the same thing as 4 mana Karn, Scion of Urza. The only difference is that there is no interference [Chalice] for the trade-off of their Karn effect not walking into trades with opponent's blue cards in hand. This deck punishes "good card" syndrome at a time when people are trying to overload on 1-for-1 removal; I can tell you you're not going to get there if "good card" Prismatic Ending is something you've gone all-in on instead having sufficient EE/wraths.
Make no mistake though, you play artifact lands in this format and you will get burned. A deck like Anzi's could have easily won those finals with FoV played as 0 mana Rain of Salt. There is also no shortage of hosers in older sets Titania's Song, Powder Keg, Pulverize, Meltdown/Hammer Mage, Energy Flux, Humility, Gorilla Shaman/Goblin Tinkerer, Serenity, Pernicious Deed...and the list goes on and on into the new cards like KarnTGC, FoV, Ouphe, Abrade/Grudge, Wear//Tear, Dack, Dress Down, EE, Crime // Punishment, Sarulf, Realm Eater, any wrath, and the list goes on and on and on, for all colors, and all decks.
Just kill the mana surrounding the suicidal Saga, and you're gonna be okay, or just Needle it. Your focus should be more on Nettlecyst and cmc=0. You can also just cast Alpine Moon name Saga. This card isn't getting banned in a Wasteland format...
There's no shortage of artifact hosers (UR Delver running Meltdown X=0 kills all artifact lands, constructs, servos, Ballista, Stonecoil, and Mox for a 1-mana sorcery, something the deck already wants to play. Pay 1 more to kill Retrofitter Foundry and Esper Sentinel too). The problem is these cards are very narrow, so there is a real cost to putting them in your SB over something else. If everyone starts playing Affinity, sideboards will hate out Affinity. Same thing applies to Dredge and Hogaak. But if SBs don't come prepared with very specific hate, it can blowout decks just trying to trade with fair removal because there are just too many things to remove.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Watching Anuraag's stream, the deck did more than just Nettlecyst + Esper Sentinel. That was the most standout play in one game "PAY 8???" but far from the only thing going on. The deck had too many engines to attack: Retrofitter Foundry, Emry, Sai, making cheap X/Xs, stacking multiple hatebears, 1-mana Mulldrifter. All those engines left it matching cards with a control deck running Uro, Jace, Sylvan, Teferi, infinite Terminus.... You needed a crystal ball to know you were facing this deck to pack the right narrow disruption to attack it. In the end he ran out of resources to deal with everything. Nettlecyst + Sentinel was just one of the things he ran out of answers for.
I am waiting to see what Saga can do in Emry Stompy though...
Yah it keeps blue players honest. It can be hated out if you cut surgicals, but then you are open to getting rolled by gaak. Or they cut borrowers & fov for meltdown, and they get rolled by stompy decks. Or they cut their grind cheese (klothys/quad library) and lose to bigger blue decks.
Fox, it isn't cheese. A land that creates massive tokens is very hard to deal with for control. Its the same things as field of the dead, except much, much faster.
If you're talking about Anzi's match specifically, it was overloading on Endurance & Ending at the cost of FoV and EE/wrath. He was losing the this matchup moment he clicked submit deck.
@Reeplcheep Wasteland is a control card, always has been.
Those cards were specifically why he rolled the 40% of the field that was UR delver. With your choices he would have 2-3 dropped.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
You need wasteland immediately after it ETBs, or else it is too late. Its not like FotD which gives you 4 turns to get it.
It's really not that bad, but if you're not attacking their mana or cmc zero or stocking sufficient wrath, you are going to get overwhelmed while always playing catchup whack-a-mole with 1-for-1s. You can still beat UR Delver and play a different list than Anzi played; there is very little SB cost to FoV, and if his deck wanted it Kaheera as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Aside from targeted artifact hate from the SB, Wasteland is the cleanest generic answer and you need it immediately before Level 2 (otherwise they get an X/X in response and you got 2-for-1ed). Waste & FoV on their other mana sources can manascrew them, but this is easy for them to adapt around by running more basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Wraths help, but even if you Wrath the 2 X/X tokens they still get a free Retrofitter Foundry and 2-for-1 your Wrath. Awkward. And that's if you burn a card to kill Retrofitter immediately. If it sticks around, using spot removal on Retrofitter is trading down. You have to deal with the tokens too. That's why after resolving 4 Terminus Anzi was still struggling to stabilize in one game. Urza's Saga + Retrofitter Foundry kept churning out gas without having to really use up cards and dodging all counterspells, like Field of the Dead on roids. Very few non-SB cards other than Pernicious Deed really get the job done here. That doesn't mean it's unbeatable, but like Dredge it can sure punish fair decks that don't dedicate SB space to hate it out.
I can't wait for people to use Urza's Saga to get 1-of Hex Parasite and then keep another Urza's Saga alive forever. Urza's Saga.dec: cast no spells, win with infinite Pack Rats.
Alpine moon costs 1 mana, kills all Urza's sagas you don't control and prevents future ones too. It also does double duty against post.
Huh. So it becomes a saga without any chapter abilities and just dies on ETB. Cute.Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Saying Kaheera and wrath’s are better vs 12 1 drop delver than coatl and uro is kinda crazy. If traditional control has such a good ur delver matchup why did so well while all the other control players go negative?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
Please re-read the post where I identify Prismatic Ending and Endurance overloading as the problem. I have never stated that flying cantrip deathtouch wall and taps to draw a card and sinkhole a Delver attack is bad vs Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Overloading those made it weak to Affinity, but also crushed Delver. 7 1cmc removal is strong vs 1 drop Delver. Endurance is an absolute beating against DRC (to a lesser extent also Murkfiend, Delver and Ragavan). AnziD's build created a structural weakness against some matchups, but in exchange absolutely thrashed others. Sure he could still be >50% against UR without overloading (maindeck Carpet really says you're on a mission) but overloading pushed him even higher. With UR as the obvious DTB, that wasn't necessarily a bad metagame call. Let's not forget he went undefeated in every other match and took 2nd place, running on no sleep and making play mistakes, because his deck was so far ahead in other matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
So, generally speaking, Urza's Saga is making big waves along with other cards in the Affinity archetype. Is anybody seeing anything else really shaking things up?
Endurance is seeing quite a bit of play in Bant control or maverick as a delver hate card that also hoses graveyard or combo decks. The list of cards that profitably block insectile abberation (and don’t die to bolt or pyro like strix) below 4 mana is very short.
I see the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Affinity - Urza's Saga, Esper Sentinel, Nettlecyst, Zabaz, the Glimmerwasp
Delver - Murktide Regent, Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer, Dragon's Rage Channeler
Yorion - Sanctifier en-Vec
D&T - Sanctum Prelate
Bant - Endurance, Abundant Harvest
Post - Yavimaya, Cradle of Growth
Reanimator - Grief
Storm - Strike It Rich
I'm not sure about "really shaking things up" but there are a lot of cards with heavy potential. For example, Gaea's Will seems like the sort of card that will either do little, or get banned for making some kind of combo deck too strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I've been testing out a Food Chain Goblin list based on one I saw elsewhere, using Ignoble Hierarch and Anarchomancer, and it's actually really fucking degenerate.
Sanctum Prelate already existed. But they'll definitely be playing Esper Sentinel. Also probably Kaldra Kompleat but I think that's a meta call over Batterskull. It's probably better 60% of the time thoQuote:
Originally Posted by Cire
It depends on who you are playing against. If you know your opponent will get rid of stoneforge mystic, then batterskull is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I'm surprised that the STP on legs is not played.
No way to vial it in, and you cant recoup the card disavantage. I can see why its not played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
I played against a list running Squadron Hawk to support both Solitude and Force of Virtue, it was pretty sick tbh. Especially when you’re pumping Sentinel which recoups card advantage further.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittplayer
Ah. The old running bad cards to support bad cards argument. Idk, I would rather run Thalia, Vial, Stp, Port, Wastes, Flickerwisp, etc. I dont think running Hawks to support Solitude and FoV sounds like anywhere near competitive in legacy. A fun casual deck sure!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
So is this like. Actually unintentional, or are you being ironic here? You think cards like Port or Thalia or Flickerwisp, fucking Flickerwisp, are just objectively strong, good cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittplayer
Hey do you know what some really bad cards are? Chain of Smog. Protean Hulk. Lion's Eye Diamond. Crop Rotation.
Hell Brainstorm is pretty weak in most decks if you don't have fetchlands. You know what card fucking sucks with a low blue count, is Force of Will.
Like I don't know how to explain to you that the basic premise of deckbuilding is that cards in a deck become stronger or weaker based entirely on the context of how they interact with both the cards the opponent is likely to be playing but also the other cards in your deck. If you just stick LED in Miracles or Thalia in Storm or something they're going to fucking suck. Because the cards aren't in those decks to make those cards good.
Sure, you can put “bad” cards in a good context and “good” cards in a bad context.
The thing about the “bad” cards you listed is that they mostly either enable a cheap, game-winning combo (LED, Protean Hulk, Crop Rotation) or have no deckbuilding cost (Brainstorm).
Force of Virtue looks pretty suspect because its payoff is not that dramatic (except in already favorable board states) and its deckbuilding cost is real. Being skeptical of FoV in Legacy doesn’t betray some kind of deep ignorance about how decks work. It’s more about what seems useful in Legacy.
It’s a fair point, though, that many players would be skeptical of Flickerwisp if they hadn’t seen it in action in DnT. Some cards can be surprising, but you’re not really explaining how FoV is going to surprise people.
I’d also agree with you as far as saying that that Solitude isn’t “bad” and that Squadron Hawk is also not “bad” but really needs the right home and doesn’t have it right now (and maybe won’t ever again). Force of Virtue is just way less flexible than FoW, and Brainstorm and Ponder aren’t white.
You shut your mouth. Balustrade Spy is objectively good.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
...at your kitchen table?Quote:
I played against a list running Squadron Hawk to support both Solitude and Force of Virtue, it was pretty sick...
Idk, like I'd rather play something real then be tendrilsed to death on turn2 after making caw-caw for 1W.
All that matters is the ceiling, the floor, and the expected value of the effect. 7 mana 4/4s are not playable in legacy, but affinity just won a challenge.
The ceiling of hawk as a 2 mana super mulldrifter is insane. 8 mana for 4 1/1s is unplayable.
The floor of a 4 mana lord effect is blank cardboard. The ceiling of a 0 mana pump is good but probably bot that much better then a force of will
Force plow has a high floor but a low ceiling (plow is only 1 mana)
Overall the ceilings are pretty low on these effects so you would need to go very deep on cheap ways to draw white cards to make it consistent enough. Oketras monument, legion angel, legion conquistadors. At that probably not worth it but you can’t do it halfway.
Also you aren’t really gaining anything from legacy cards or meta here so it seems better suited to modern.
Stoneforge Mystic and Aether Vial and Mom and Recruiter of the Guard and Swords to Plowshares and Flickerwisp do nothing to stop you from being Tendril'd to death turn 2. Are you saying those are bad cards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Hack
The ceiling here is a 0 mana way to make your creatures significantly more burn resilient and make Esper Sentinel impossible to play around, on top of just winning more combats and killing opponents faster. So I'd say that's certainly worth considering. I don't know if it's going to be good enough, because I don't know what's going to be good in this meta at all after MH2, which is a stupidly overpowered set all around. Except I guess UR Delver. But I'm not dismissive of it either.Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
ThrabenU's posted some content showing Kaldra. Card is strong, and in different situations than you'd want Batterskull so D&T may just run both. It performed worst vs removal or bounce, blowing it out on tempo, so the deck probably wants 6x Mom to make better use of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Force: The ceiling is T1 2/2 Esper Sentinel. 2 mana tax is much harder for opponent to pay, especially on turn 1 and in a deck with Thalia + Waste + Port, so now Esper Sentinel is drawing free cards to compensate for the initial -2 cards. Another ceiling is countering Forked Bolt for 0 mana. The floor is pretty bad, paying 4-mana or 2 cards to make Honor of the Pure on an empty board.
Squawk: The floor of 4 1/1s is bad. The ceiling of 3 2/2s + free card to pitch is pretty good. Also good as a 1/1 Sword carrier + 3 cards in hand to insulate against discard effects or pitch to things.
These are higher variance cards but the ceilings are good when they work. There's a big reward for making Esper Sentinel a 2/2 without losing tempo. Luminarch Aspirant and Honor of the Pure could do it too, but they eat up your turn 2.
There are other ways to compensate for card disadvantage, like Ranger-Captain of Eos or Recruiter of the Guard + blink effects. Both also tutor for Esper Sentinel. A deck that can make 2/2 Esper Sentinels and compensate for the card disadvantage somehow should be able to profit, so it's just a matter of tuning to reduce variance. It may work better in a deck like this or a token deck with more anthems than trying to cram Squawks into D&T.
Edit: The InfamousBearNinja Ninja'd me.
Yeah if anything I think Force of Virtue is more tempting than Solitude, because yeah StP only costs one anyways, two at most if you have Thalia out. And obviously it does other things but just pumping Esper Sentinel at instant speed for no mana in a way that sticks around and helps the team seems really good.
The list I saw was not running Chrome Mox which if anything seems more tempting to me than Solitude unless you're doing blink stuff yourself.
I wonder how good Ignoble Hierarch + Voidwalker is going to be. You could easy go
T1: Hierarch
T2: Voidvalker, 1-mana discard
And then you could either play their best card the next turn or attack with a 4 power shadow creature every turn while hosing their GY. Sounds like a super-strong creature combo from a value perspective, especially since both are good on their own.