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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Haha, that’s funny as hell. God I hope people play that Shaz in their board. The fact that you can play him as a 3/4 or better with only 3 cards in your graveyard is insane, it also takes away the need for Mental Note entirely.
This creature and Counterbalance have just rocked the archetype in a big way.
Even if they Morning Tide, he's a 1/2 that grows up again extremely quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
The thing about Crypt is that it's free and any deck can play it. Something like Morning Tide, while um, good at hating the 'goyf (which I am henceforth calling the thing), but is not going to see that much play on account of the number of decks running White (less than 40-50%). Dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by Volt
Well, yeah. Obviously, you have to be playing white. And you have to not care about your own graveyard. So that narrows the field considerably. For those decks, though, Morning Tide will be an attractive option. I'm not saying it's anything you should worry about; it's not any worse for you than Tormod's Crypt used to be. And Tarmogoyf recovers quickly anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Combine that with Counterbalance and Morning Tide is nothing. Wow, I am so happy to see that that card coming out. I will miss Werebear, but this card just looks awesome.
Got back from some playtesting. I love Tarmogoyf! The fact he comes down faster than Werebear is nuts! He may be the best answer to Goblins we've ever had in awhile, due to the fact he comes out early and doesnt need Threshold.
Versus Goblins, Goyf can
-Answers Lackey on Turn 2. Something Werebear cant do. Playing a 1st turn Cantrip on the play, and a potential fetchland from the opponent (or yours) is savage in this MU. This can potentially make the Goyf a 1/2-2/3 at that time. If it's a 1/2, it shouldnt matter. Only Swords to Plowshares can answe this guy - Moggy sucks against this teh Goyf.
-Can potentially race Vial with multiples out. Out of 10 games, my playtest partner and was trying to play around Daze if he wanted to get Vial active against me. He got it going off turn 2. On my turn 3, I played a Goyf, and then cantripped. I saw another Goyf from my cantrips and played it turn 4. I pressured him so well, I won that game in face. I had 5 cards in the Graveyard btw. Kiss the chef.
-The Incenerator range keeps going up. Yes, it takes another creature to trade-block for Goyf, and Incenerator range of this creature changes, making it even more sensitive to your opponent's game plan. The fact now, a simple Swords to Plowshares can ruin even more games.
-Clock gets faster from a 4/5 to a 5/6. Damn this is hot right here, seeing: Artifact, Creature, Sorcery, Instant, and Land all at the same time in 3-4 simple turns.
Versus Goblins, Bear can
-Give you Green mana when they get you in the Port lockdown.... honestly, it shouldnt matter if you get Goyf down early and start pressuring them. With a plethora of free-counters, why should you be afraid? Especially with cantrips to help you replace lost Beaters.
-Flex your arms while you have Werebear in play, and say, "Is it just me, or are these guns illegal? I think I should get my gun license to the YMCA, so I can excercise my rights to these bear arms."
Against Solidarity, Goyf can
-Speeds up your clock, which is always a good thing. Dropping him turn 2 and going all the way? My god, I love this card so much! <3 The Goyf.
Against The Mirror/Goyf Haters
-Walks right into the Bear when it's 4/5-5/6, and still kicks it's ass.
-Walks right into the Goose and still kicks it's ass.
-Doesnt kick the Enforcer's ass, but that's besides the point. It can kill Dragon and Tombstalker luckily.
-Bashe's your opponent's face in when he doesnt have Threshold, and if he does, you already got first blood.
Against Hanni Fish
-Doesnt fucking trade with Jotun Grunt, and doesnt fucking die to that stinky giant with his mom helping him to beat you up with parental guidence as back up incase Steve McQueen (Goyf) decided he's too badass to take this shit any longer. Oh, and Grunts ability takes for-fucking-ever. Let him eat your grave, you still have he's grave to live off of. And if he calls Swords to Plowshares with he's early Meddling Mages, good-fucking-luck winning this match-up now.
-Fucking hell yeah! Makes Confidant races so much more fun.
I say we dont name him the Goyf. He needs a more badass name. Steve McQueen dammit! The card should be named Steve-motherfucking-McQueen! Werebear had a shitty, yet badass flavour text - Tarmogoyf should have a badass name with no need for a fucking flavour text to describe he's fucking badassness. I know Werebear likes to show off he's guns but has no name, but Goyf is so fucking badass, he doesnt need some shitty flavor text to describe he's name: Steve McQueen says it all...
// Lands
1 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Tundra
4 [R] Tropical Island
// Creatures
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
3 [OD] Werebear
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
// Spells
3 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [OD] Predict
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Portent
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
SB: 2 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ST] Armageddon
SB: 2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [FD] Trinket Mage
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
This is a possible list with Counterbalance. I tested it quite intensive and it is very good.
- Divining Top is insane combined with Brainstorm, Serum Visions or Predict and Fetchlands; it finds you whatever you may need.
- I have never missed Counterspell, Counterbalance does much more in most matchups.
- Predict has a hit percentage of over 90% with Balance and Top (no statistics, but it should be about that), so it is very, very good.
- Counterbalance is either good or broken in every matchup except Goblins, so I want to maindeck it; even without Top you can gain much card advantage with Brainstorm or random countering; if you play against Goblins just side ot out, that's much better than siding it in in every other matchup (unless you play in the netherlands)
- Trinket Mages in the SB are really strong:
*against Goblins you have more outs against Vial without being forced to play a 3rd Needle
*in the Aggro Control Mirror it is broken because it fetches Explosives and Top, in the Threshold Mirror it can also fetch Crypt
*against Faerie Stompy and Staxx you can fetch Explosives to have an out against stupid Chalices
*they are flexible and you always find something fetch-worthy in between Top, Crypt, Explosives and Needle
That's an awesome list, but your sideboard looks rather janky, and your land line-up looks like it's gonna scoop to Wasteland.
Go for this
3 Windswept Heath
4 Blue fetches
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Forest
2 Island
Armageddons, Jotun Grunts, and Meddling Mages look rather pointless in here. I think you should replace those with a 3rd Trinket Mage, and more cards against Goblins, like Stifles.
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
I will never play nonblue lands in Threshold. If my opponents waste, then I am fine with it and replay lands. If my opponents stabilizes the board and then establish Crucible/Waste I accept my defeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But feel free to play Forests if you like to play it more safe.
Yeah, Stifle is a good idea, maybe they can be played instead of the Mages. I like Jotun Grunts: They are a mirror breaker and they beat independent from Threshold. A 3rd Trinket Mage is too much because the 2nd Mage would often have no good target.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Thats not a good reason to not play a Forest. Especially, if you are playing 3x Sensei's divining top in the main (which should be only 2 imo). I briefly tested Counterbalance in the MD last weekend and it was not bad, however I missed having the 3 extra Counterspells games 2/3 vs. Faerie Stompy, Solidarity, Red Death, and others. There are a surprising amount of 3cc cards that you have to be able to answer so I don't feel cutting Counterspell is possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Just in case anyone wants more information regarding the above list, it was taken from this article posted on Tuesday @ PlanetMTG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Yep, my Article :)Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
But I think that the German readers all know Pmtg and the others can't understand the language so it won't help anybody to post it here.
Edit:
You can try it with this, but the translation is a bit rough (maps = cards, saying=spell, grammar is nonexistant), so it is on your own risk.
http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/art...id=2703&typ=2&
http://translate.google.com/translate_t
copy the URL into "Translate a Web Page" "German to English", Google has the best free translation programm I know. Still far from perfect, though.
Edit 2:
Haha, this is funny (the Germans will know why):
Drink yourself Mage = Trinket Mage
Who Bear = Werbear
Lightning Fishing Rod = Lightning Angel
and, best of all:
the material paluschke = the real paluschke
I have always been a big fan of draw spells, I reserver 15-16 slots for them. And I am convinced, that even if your not running Counterbalance in the SB 2x Top in the main will just win some games. Top is that good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caboose
Oh, and you should be running 2x Strand and 2x Delta. It allows for more versatility when naming targets with needle while at the same time fighting the same strategy being used against you.
so any new changes to the list with future sight? Namely tarmogoyf? Can this guy replace werebear as the cheap beatstick? I know anti-american have said some things, but what do others think? I like the card a lot, but what the hell are planeswalker and rebel?
Tarmogoyf in Thresh is a done deal. The only question is how many werebears will be cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by blackguard90
I see Tarmogoyf doing better in the builds with Counter Top. With more artifacts and enchantments to potentially go to the yard (yes I'm well aware they are better in play and not in the yard), you can get larger goyf's more consistently, which is the reason to run them over Bear in the first place.
I was looking at the spoiler today and saw Judge Unworthy:
Judge Unworthy -- 1w
Instant
Choose target attacking or blocking creature. Scry 3, then reveal the top card of your library. Judge Unworthy deals damage equal to that card's converted mana cost to that creature.
I like the card because it lets you dig three deep and gives you the opportunity to remove an attacker or blocker. Which I would sometimes have problems with right before I got to threshold or after losing my grave. Could Judge Unworthy possibly replace Portent or go in the sideboard as additional creature kill? Or with the addition of the 'goyf' do Thresh's creatures come online faster now making this card already obsolete?
The two biggest problems with it are that it costs 2 and can only be used durring the attack step. Besides that, I like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPC
Neither Goyf or Judge unworthy are legay at GP Columbus or any of the tournaments leading to it. I think discussion of future sight is a little premature and sidetracks the discussion.
The one thing that UGW needs to figure out is how to beat Goblins post board. The Crypt/Chalice plan still trumps anything I have seen suggested thus far.
To be honest I might look into some old tech and see if it holds up a.k.a. Chill.
I tested Absolute Law this weeked vs. Goblins and thought it sucked ass (not enough threat density on Thresh's part). For the time being, I'm back to Chill as well. As long as you can answer Lackey (easy enough done) and Vial (not as easily done), Chill should own Goblins and buy Thresh the time it needs to establish its offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Chill is at least in Thresh's main color (though REB'able) and pitches to FoW if you need to. Also double-Chill is a huge bitch, unlike, say double Ab Law.
The thing I fear is the addition of Krosan Grip. Not to mention that CotV is not affected by Chill. I think you could bring in 4 Chill and maybe 2-3 EE to answer Chalice and creatures occasionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Sad, but true. When you run Chills, you need to protect them. I change my sideboard here, and there. My sideboard currently is
1 Mystic Enforcer
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
3 Hydroblast
4 Chill
I didnt want to cut Stifle, but I ran into some problems against Goblins that ran Patron, Blood Moon, and of course, Red Elemental Blast. Needle should be enough to take care of Tormod's Crypt since Gempalm Incenerator is useless.
Versus Vial Goblin sideboards with Leave No Trace or Tranquil Domain, it's very tricky to play against. I'm usually more patient with my Chills against those decks. What I tend to do is look at their land count and my draws before I play my 2nd Chill. When they play something like that, you should expect them side them in against you Game 3. Game 3 should feature you
actually playing around their Enchantment hate, and I expect you be be able to answer them. Think like David Gearhart here..... knowing how many Enchantment hate cards they have in their hand get give you an easy win.
Although I cut Stifles, the one problem I have with that is the fact that Stifles are good at fighting TES. The fact it makes double Tendrils and EtW obsolete is what makes me love Stifle. If your metagame is heavy on Combo, you may want to run these over Hydroblasts.
Hydroblast/BEB is not all that bad against TES either. It counters Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, Seathing Songs. Thats about it, but it is still better than nothing. All you have to do is buy enough time to get Counterbalance online and the game should be over. Make sure you bring in EE against TES to deal with the quick ETW and you should be fine. Going for Tendril's early is much much more difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
As far as chills go, I think packing at least 3 pithing needles (I already have them main deck as I prefer Hatfield Thresh), in addition to chills would be the best route to go. Needle covers vial, which nothing else does, and, as Bardo addressed, as long as you can answer lackey, chill hurts them hard.
My problem is that around turn 4-5, they will go for the EtW plan against you. Having at least 3 more outs might be key in this match up. I need to ask some questions....Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
1. Against TES, do you keep them off threats or mana? If you keep them off mana, they cant do much against you, but since they have tons of Ritual effects, they can still go EtW agianst you. Keeping them off threats is hard because like their Ritual effects, they have tons.
2. Stifle or Hydroblast? Stifles hit the trouble cards, and Hydroblast hits Rites and BWish, and at times an EtW copy just to give yourself another turn to find outs.
I played this deck in a FNM tourney last friday and I was amazed of the fun I had with it. With the list Bardo provided somewhere (opening post?) I smashed B/W Confidant (Deadguy) 2-0 and got a nice match against PitchLong, yes the format was Vintage. I thougt I had a chance against Oath, but a Chain of Vapor returned the Mage...
I have been thinking about the Vial/Chalice/Crypt thing. Has anybody ever tested 2 Annul instead of 2 Counterspell or 2 Daze after SB? They stop the artifacts at a lower cost than counterspell, they pitch to FoW and I don't think opponents expect them. When you're on the draw against Goblins, you have at least 2 extra chances of destroying the Chalice before it hurts you. Force should deal with Vial first turn, if Needle is not around. As a side effect, Annul stops equipments, Worship (mirror?), Top, Moxen, LED, Charbelcher.
It's just that most players tend to answer Vial after it resolves. Running Needle is probably better for this deck.
If you drop a pithing needle on your first turn, and have a second land in your hand (which sounds about reasonable), would it be wiser to name aether vial or wasteland?
You dont play Needles until after they play Vial usually. Usually when you call Wastelands with Needles, it should be hand dependent. I generally dont call Wasteland if I have a hand full of cantrips to find land with. If I have a Tundra and a Trop, and no other lands in my opening hand, but tons of cantrips, I might call Wasteland and mise my way digging for Needle if my opponent drops Vial. But nowadays, I dont call Wasteland with Needle anymore. I usually fetch Basics early and much much rather keep them from pumping out guys through Vial. I'm honestly more scared of Port than Wasteland, since I can find more lands to replace the ones that got Wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Binary Star
So, I've never been too keen on those maindeck Counterspell slots. Thresh is too busy spending mana to cantrip, drop guys, remove stuff all while managing Daze, in the beginning of the game (barring a very slow start). Counterspell, later in the game, is fine when you're already winning--but then, you're already winning, right? With the rise of combo, and let's say a theoretically extremely stupid combo 1-card combo deck that may be popular at the GP, what about Stifle or Trickbind in the MD Counterspell slots?
Counterspell is a way you can fight Control decks if they do take you into midgame. I also see them being "da bomb" against Angel Stompy, RGSA, and any Board Control deck. Then again, I played Counterspells everytime I picked up the deck, and I would never drop them unless I'm playing a specific MU that would much rather have me answer something earlier rather than around midgame.
@Bardo. Fuck Flash. Bring on the Stifles. They are also randomly good elsewhere too. I'm just not so sure meddling mage will pull its weight, because flash is just too fast.
Assuming this mysterious "1-card combo" deck to which you referred does make an appearance in Columbus, I would highly recommend the switch to Stifles. I also think you should consider moving the Mystic Enforcers to the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Actually, Meddling Mage is really fucking good against Flash. It's definitely one of your best weapons against the combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
Re: Enforcer. Yeah, I think I agree, Volt. -1 Enforcer, +1 Trickbind.
The reason I say this is because I've been playing with main decked bounce and reliable ways to tutor it in my flash deck. But yea, the deck can get caught without and and has to look for a few turn. It just bothers me that we can't apply we really deadly clock while they go all stupid and win.
The flash deck can drop the disciple win condition for a 4 card win and add duress’s and more bounce to improve the Threshold match. Post board massacre is another strong option to deal with multiple mages
umm.... Since Solidarity is declining in numbers, and you still want something against Goblins, shall we tryQuote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
-1 EE/Enforcer
-2 Counterspell
for
+3 Stifle?
Trickbind is two cc, that's my problem. At least on the play, you will always have a free counter backed up.
BUT, once you have 2 mana and a trickbind, you win the game.
Unless they Unmask or Duress the Trickbind out of your hand.
With all that Flash in the air, a lot of people are siding Leyline of the Void; how do you think this will affect Threshold ? In particular, do you think it would still be a good choice in the meta ?
Bardo, what is you current post-FS UGW-Thresh list (EDIT: http://mtgsalvation.com/595-what-nex...-spikes.html)? (Thanks in advance). Are Mongeese still relevant since they are, with Enforcer, the only Thresh dependent creatures in the deck ? (I'd say yes but I'd like to know your opinions). Are Mental Notes still relevant ? (Predict could replace them ?)
Or Ray of Erasure. As what's good, I still say Threshold. I mean, you dont need Geese as beatdown enablers.... you always have Mages.... and maybe a (un)threshed guy or two.Quote:
Originally Posted by aTn
Yes, Mental Note is still good. Go for Bennett Toms' list, since it features both. Predict is good against Flash, but seems late. Replace those with, umm... Ray of Erasure? Run Stifles maindeck alongside with a set of Dazes now.