Petal helps in krosan gripping counterbalance on turn 2 on the play and then go off with the opponent tapped out.
I'd play your manabase wit -1 Petal +1 Land (Island probably)
Printable View
Petal helps in krosan gripping counterbalance on turn 2 on the play and then go off with the opponent tapped out.
I'd play your manabase wit -1 Petal +1 Land (Island probably)
The list I've been putting through gauntlet testing plays 1 Tendrils, 1 ETW, 1 IGG, 1 Doomsday maindeck. It has 1 Doomsday, 1 Brain Freeze in the sb. I board in Doomsday#2 against heavy discard and when it's necessary to decrease the amount of cards in hand needed for combo (to fight the wars of attrition against some control decks). I'm playing 6 slots for protection in the maindeck (4 Chant, 1 Extirpate, 1 KGrip) with up to 10 of the same possible against troublesome matchups (4 Thoughtseize, 1 Abeyance, 2 Extirpate, 3 KGrip) in the sideboard. The full sideboard I'm testing looks like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
//protection
4 Thoughtseize
1 Abeyance
2 Extirpate
//removal
3 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rushing River
//alt win
1 Doomsday
1 Brain Freeze
My manabase is questionable right now. I have 17 lands, 1 Petal in this config, but I'm not quite sure about the the 8th fetch and what the 17th land should be (right now I have it as an Underground Sea). I want more basics (indeed I wish I had an 18th land, but I can't find the cut for it) and that's what the 2nd Sea or the 8th fetchland might become.
For reference:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
So far I've been very happy with it, but I'm not very far into my gauntlet. I'll know more as I approach GP: Indy after the testing sessions.
Edit: Stuff about Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal is bad against Stax because you want to get to 3 mana to play a bounce/serenity. 14-15 lands + 4 petal yields almost exactly the same amount of mana sources as 17 lands + 1 petal but the 17 land version's mana sources aren't cut off by Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void. If they don't have Trinisphere, you should be comboing anyway so the other scenario doesn't matter much.
The only compelling places Petal is better are against black LD (Deadguy, Eva Green) and against Dragon Stompy. (Although to be perfectly honest, I'm still winning 50% of my games without Serenity and without the other 3 Petals because LED and Top are just that stupid good.)
Hello,
I'm new to this deck, and I'm wondering something : how do you use doomsday stacks ? Is it the mean to brainfreeze the opponent ?
Do you think leaving green for red and empty the warrens is a good choice in a meta where ichorid, aggro loam and the rock are widely represented (along with a lot of landstills) ?
In the above metagame with Ichorid, Aggro Loam, and The Rock; I would play Red over Green as a splash in the deck. I just prefer Red over Green because it has better cards against blue control decks. I think Serenity is a fine replacement for Grip in the board by cutting green.Quote:
Originally Posted by r0ckstAr
I'm not sold on the new direction that some players have gone with this deck. I still like the first build of Fetch Land Tendrils before they added Sensei's Divining Top and Doomsday.
I hate repeating myself. Nick, if that build works for you in your meta, then by all means play it. However, it's been tested and found that Top is much better against control builds. Also, you should look at what you just said.Quote:
it's my opinion that most of you FT players don't realize something about this deck: The build you use is dependent on your meta. You don't have to mirror Emidln's build. That's the whole point of this list--versatility.
You just said to play EtW in a metagame with a relevant amount of Deed present. Moreover, you said NOT to play Grip against a deck that runs LotV, a list that uses an enchantment as a kill-spell, and then Deed...See anything wrong here? How does Serenity solve these problems? Ichorid is a wierd matchup, and heavily dependent on opening hands for both sides (this is just in my opinion, if you guys have some method of beating them, I'd like to hear it), and EtW is a worse choice than Echoing Truth, however helpful game 1. Against Deed, K. Grip is necessary if you run EtW, and since you mentioned The Rock, they run Vindicates to rid you of your Serenity. Serenity isn't really a great answer by itself. Even against Counterbalance it's worse as their 2-spot is used by Goyf and it makes their counter spells relevant, not to mention their own K. Grips.Quote:
In the above metagame with Ichorid, Aggro Loam, and The Rock; I would play Red over Green as a splash in the deck.
Don't get me wrong, I use Serenity, but K. Grip is by far the MVP when it comes to removal; you can tutor it up, and then keep it where it's at via Top until it becomes a necessary force, all while making their in-hand protection irrelevant. I run a 5-color list, and it does quite well. I use Tops also. But I do advocate others use what they need to to win. That is the point, right? Winning? Why is conformity becoming a driving force in this thread? I've never seen so many people determined to change peoples' minds into running xeroxed lists...Play what you need, discuss choices, but at the end of the day, leave it alone.
Pce,
--DC
@ emidln,
How do you board with that SB against:
AggroControl with CB
AggroControl without SB
Control
Cause you have so many cards that are good in that MU's
My Ichorid strategy boils down the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
1) Use Chant/Extirpate to keep Narcomoebas off the table (not always possible with Chant, but they have exactly 4 ways of non-spell card draw outside of draw step) and Cabal Therapy from smacking me in the fish.
2a) Use 2nd Extirpate/1st Echoing Truth on Ichorids (beats Ichorid completely considering without Narcos and Ichorids they'll never be able to put Golgari Thugs or Stinkweed Imps into play fast enough to race you). With Mystical Tutor or Lim-dul's Vault and 3 Extirpate postboard, this isn't terribly hard.
OR
2a) Win the game via Goldfishing (this happens more than "2a", but watching out for 2a is a good way to get easy wins).
It's not clear what you mean here, but just in case: Narcomoebas's ability puts them into play rather than let you play them, so Orim's Chant won't stop them from coming into play (although it will prevent a DR/Therapy on that same turn).Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
The not playing DR/Therapy is what I meant. The "not always possible with Chant" comment wasn't clear enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
If heavy discard has obliterated your hand, and let's say you even have a top on the board, how do you do 20 points of damage with a Doomsday stack?Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
With Doomsday in hand and Top on the board, you need either 3 other spells + BBBBBB (standard stack) or 1 other spell + 2BBBBBB (replace Petal with Top) to generate a storm count of 10. Note: Against "heavy discard" it's quite possible that you don't need to do 20 because those decks often pack Thoughtseize (also seen: Dark Confidant, Fetchlands). If they played 2 Thoughtseizes and you have Top + 3 lands in play, you only need 2 cards in your hand to win (Cabal Ritual [with 2 B-producing lands, 1 random land + Threshold] / LED [with 3 B-producing lands] + Doomsday).
Hum.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
So Petal is bad against Stax and good against Deadguy, Eva Green and Dragon Stompy. Again, those are more pros than cons. I'm still waiting for a good explanation why a playset of Petals shouldn't be played. The only reason I've heard from you so far is the Stax matchup, which on its own does not justify anything.
Lands are better than Petals vs Threshold/Fish and Landstill. In these matchups, you desperately need to use mana to setup with cantrips and tutors so being forced to mull hands with Petal, Ponder, Brainstorm and no lands really sucks. Hitting three lands against Landstill is critical to the ease of winning the matchup while hitting three lands agaisnt Thresh/Fish largely takes Daze out of the equation. These matchups are much more prevalent than any Chalice deck or black aggro deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
You play LED and Top to the board. In such a situation you would only need 0-1 Rituals and Doomsday to generate lethal storm. This is accomplished blue cantrips or with multiple tops on the table + topdeck tutors. LED on the tableQuote:
Originally Posted by moxpearl
Let's say you have the following in play:
Swamp
Island
Plains
Sensei's Divining Top
Lion's Eye Diamond
You need 2BBB + 1 spell or 1 mana to generate lethal storm with a Tendrils stack (assuming an opponent hasn't been gracious enough to assist in their death) which with a board like the sample board would let you use either Dark Rit or Cabal Rit + Doomsday as the only cards in your hand.
Dark Rit (2BBB)
Doomsday (2 + LED = 2BBB)
Draw4 (2)
LED (2)
LED (2)
Top (1)
Top (0 + LED + LED= BBBBBB)
Top (BBBBB)
Top (BBBB)
Tendrils with 9 storm
This is the stack I used for that (a basic variation of my standard Cruel Bargain/Tendrils stack):
[top]
Cruel Bargain
LED
LED
Top
Tendrils
[bottom]
Against the blue control decks, I do agree that Top is better than both street wraith and lotus petal that I currently play. Doomsday is darn right terrible though. You usually play the long game hoping that you will be able to combo out against them.
In our metagame, the board has to be totally reworked since a lot of control decks are playing Orim's Chant in the board against us, usually along with extirpate to. This is why I had to go back to green for Xantid Swarm mainly.
Also, I'm going to start testing Bitterblossom in the board against control style decks which provides another way to win since a lot of them board there removal out. Maybe its just a terrible idea, but I want to explore it further.
I have played FT twice for my last two local tournaments... First time, I got third/fourth the first time I played it... only losing to stax out of four rounds, the next tournament, I went 3-0-1 and got first, not loosing a single game throughout the tournament (2-0, 2-0, 2-0, split)...
I mainly played it because I don't have the cards to build my other decks currently (selling regulars so as to pimp my shaz).
Here is the list I played (sub-optimal just looking at it myself, but it has done well for me).
lands//18 (OMG, that's a lot)
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
2 underground sea
1 island
1 swamp
1 plains
2 tundra
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 scrubland
spells//42
1 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 infernal tutor
4 mystical tutor
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 sensei's divining top
3 orim's chant
1 tendril's of agony
1 ill-gotten gains
1 brainfreeze
1 empty the warrens
1 doomsday
1 wipe away
1 cruel bargain
sideboard (I had to build this deck last second, really terrible sideboard...)
4 serenity
3 extirpate
3 echoing truth
2 krosan grip
1 infernal contract
1 empty the warrens
1 pithing needle (this was a place holder for abeyance, and I was supposed to have 4 chants...)
Automatic changes I would want to make are these:
-1 plains
- excess win conditions (brainfreeze & ETW... at least in MD).
3 slots:
+1 orim's chant
+1 extirpate
+1 draw 4
At least, those are the changes I am tempted to make... although you guys know more about this deck than I (played it twice, ever)... So I want to get the cuts/adds from you guys to maximize the deck...
Also, the sideboard looks really shitty, so could I get some suggestions on that as well?
Yeah, taking out one of the win conditions is the way to go, I'd say. Taking Brain Freeze to the sideboard seems just fine, as it is simply worse than the other wincons as it is there for dodging sideboard cards. Simply side it in when you need.
I'd also keep Top as a 4-of. I think it's better than Ponder as a 4-of, since it gets Doomsday running.
Keeping the basic Plains might be better than keeping the 2nd Tundra or Underground Sea. I can't really say much here, but fetching that basic for early time walks against Stax without being vulnerable to Wasteland and for playing Serenity over Moon seems worth it.
Draw4 in the sideboard makes no sense to me and Needle is just worse than Abeyance. One of the Echoing Truths should be a Rushing River for playing against Stax and Stompies -- you usually have enough lands to get the second bounce effect with no drawbacks. ETW in the sideboard also seems like a card you are never siding in, specially when you have made the cut from 3 to 2 win conditions in the maindeck.
I said the SB was terrible... which is why I asked for suggestions...
So, cut the brainfreeze for the fourth chant, and the 4th ponder for the fourth top in the MD?
I want to have 2-3 abeyances in my board (probably 2)... taking out needle and ETW... Take out the draw 4 for.. brainfreeze (moving it to board)...
The echoing truths have been good for me, but I will test one out for the river.
Thank you for the input.
While we're sharing lists for criticism...
I got 2nd place in an 8 person tournament last week using the following list:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Swamp (2)
1 [B] Island (1)
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [U] Tundra
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [U] Tropical Island
1 [U] Volcanic Island
// Spells
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [PLC] Extirpate
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [WL] Doomsday
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Duress
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [WL] Doomsday
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
The field was (and will probably be the same next time): 1 Burn, 1 BU Tog Control, 2 BR/GR Aggro, 1 BG Discard/Pox, 1 Armageddon Stax, 1 Solidarity.
My only losses were to the Solidarity player...since I don't have much experience vs. Solidarity, I just wasn't sure how to best play against it. I didn't realize what he was running round-1 until High Tide hit the table. I tried to fetch Extirpate with Mystical Tutor (I had a Top in play), but as expected, he just responded with everything on top of me tapping Top.
The changes I plan on making for next week are:
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Flooded Strand
+1 Island
+1 Swamp
I might do the following for the SB, but I'm not sure yet:
-1 Abeyance
+1 Echoing Truth
Given the competition, a singleton Plains doesn't seem necessary. Plus, I'm running less white than most other lists I've seen, so less sources are needed.
Do not drop a fetch, and 18 lands is too much. I'd stay at 16, and just drop a Sea for a basic Plains. Do drop a petal, though, and up the M. Tutor count to 4. Alternatively you could put in a K. Grip/Wipe Away main for a little help vs. stuff like chalice/CB/3sphere. In your board, I really don't think a second Doomsday or a 3rd Extirpate is necessary. I think the slots would be better as other things depending your metagame.
While I'm waiting for my regular account to get unbanned (I'm not a bot damnit!!!), I'll address some of the points:
I wouldn't be going to 18, I'd be going to 17, which is a fairly standard land count for FT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Dropping a Sea for a Plains seems bad. I've already cut half of the white cards from the deck (well, the sideboard), and replaced them with black cards, so dropping a blue and black source for a white source doesn't seem like a good idea.
I'm running 1 Lim-Dul's Vault in place of the 4th Mystical Tutor, so I'm good as far as Tutor count is concerned. I may cut LDV for the 4th MT at some point, but I haven't found a compelling enough reason yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I've already got a Wipe Away main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
The idea of Extirpate #3 was to combine with the Duress strategy in the sideboard...although, you may be correct. The third Extirpate and Doomsday may be better served by replacing them with bounce spells (Echoing Truth and Hurkyl's Recall being the most likely candidates).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
How do you guys board against different matchups, like:
-Black Discard variants (Pikula, Eva Green, MonoBSuicide etc)
-Staxx/DS
-Control (like MUC/landstill)
-Aggro Control:
* With CB
* Without CB
* When you dont know if they play CB
I hope Emidln can answer, but I dont know if he wants to answer my question, since I asked it 2 times here, and sended him a message about it on the source.. So when you read this, can you answer the question? Or maybe anyone else..
Depends on how your SB looks like.
Against CB, K. Grip works. Do it at the end of their turn, and then go off. I like to extirpate stuff like force of will which is always there if you see CB. There's also serenity. I maindeck a Grip instead of wipe away for a better matchup game 1. It doesn't require a double colored mana cost and it puts it in their graveyard as opposed to their hand, making them find another one instead of just replaying it. If you use Duress/T-Seize in your board it helps some, but I prefer to just be done with it.
By playing K. Grip in the MD, I no longer really have to worry when I don't know if they run CB. I can just play cautiously when I'm uncertain, maintaining 1 open blue mana with a M. Tutor in hand, and a fetch that I won't use until I need to go off or grab Trop.
It's my opinion that K. Grip is rarely a dead card anyway. CB, chalice, 3sphere, Deed/EE (for when EtW is being used, or when you need to go off the top into DD way), their Top, etc. Clearly it's more narrow-sighted against stuff like Mages/Teeg, but you have other outs games 2 and 3 (like bounce...).
Stax is obviously beatable with Grip, Serenity, and Thoughtseize/Duress from the board. I'm thinking about trying out Bitterblossom in my board for such a matchup. A turn 1 D. Rit into Thoughtseize and then Bitterblossom would be a decent choice against lists that go for virtual card advantage. The only question I would have is T-Seize still better when you go this strategy because of the life-loss? Would duress be better? I'm not worried about goyf, so it seems that the creature factor would be irrelevant...
I'm not very experienced in the MUC and Landstill matchups, although I do know that discard can hurt Landstill, and Chants are extremely necessary in both matchups.
The most common way I've seen to play against Discard is to play more draw-4's, or Dark Confidant. You can also try to go off very quickly, but with the way the list has progressed, it's more difficult to do so with less Petals and no SW's. This list consistantly goes off turn 3, turn 4 at the latest. When I was playing the SW version before I played DD, I went off turn 2 consistantly, even through a Hymn. You can also chant for time walks so they don't hit you with discard until you are ready to go off. If you see quite a bit of discard, I'd suggest going with 2x Abeyance in your board with a set of chants maindecked.
This is just how I play, it may not be the ideal way to handle these situations.
Pce,
--DC
I wrote this time ago about general side in/out, but I presume it's again current.
Anyway, we need your complete decklist + SB to understand the correct side in/out in this specific case. We don't know for example if you use the CB variant or not.
I don't go to tournaments from a while, but I'm trying the green version for K.Grip in SB, only to confirm to me that is a sub-optimal version of the deck.
You can do the same with Wipe Away.Quote:
Against CB, K. Grip works. Do it at the end of their turn, and then go off.
I never used Serenity against CB for its CC.Quote:
There's also serenity. I maindeck a Grip instead of wipe away for a better matchup game 1. It doesn't require a double colored mana cost and it puts it in their graveyard as opposed to their hand, making them find another one instead of just replaying it. If you use Duress/T-Seize in your board it helps some, but I prefer to just be done with it.
Wipe Away requires double blue, but: what is the most used color in this deck? Usually against decks that use CB you have the time to put into play 2 island or island+tundra /island+usea. Instead if you use your fetch early for Tropical Island, you risk that your opponent waste it and then how do you play K.Grip? or you can be in the scenario where you have K.Grip in hand but no fetch to search the green mana and you lose some turns.
Duress/T-Seize are great in the Doomsday version: the best protection after Orim's Chant.
If yur meta is full of CB decks it's ok (but in this case I prefer to use another deck like TES), but for a general meta I continue to prefer the classic E.Truth: more versatile.Quote:
It's my opinion that K. Grip is rarely a dead card anyway. CB, chalice, 3sphere, Deed/EE (for when EtW is being used, or when you need to go off the top into DD way), their Top, etc. Clearly it's more narrow-sighted against stuff like Mages/Teeg, but you have other outs games 2 and 3 (like bounce...).
I never used Duress/T-seize against Stax. It's a CC1 card useful only in the first turn if I start. I continue to prefer Duress to T-seize. 2 lifes can be crucial in a deck with 8 fetches and a possible way to win that uses dobule half life loss (draw4 + doomsday).Quote:
Stax is obviously beatable with Grip, Serenity, and Thoughtseize/Duress from the board. I'm thinking about trying out Bitterblossom in my board for such a matchup. A turn 1 D. Rit into Thoughtseize and then Bitterblossom would be a decent choice against lists that go for virtual card advantage. The only question I would have is T-Seize still better when you go this strategy because of the life-loss? Would duress be better? I'm not worried about goyf, so it seems that the creature factor would be irrelevant...
I realize that K. Grip eot and going off on yours is the same with Wipe Away, but Grip leaves you a little more versatality if you need more time.
So with the use of Serenity, it's 2cc is unacceptable, but E. Truth is fine. I don't understand your logic. It seems a bit contradictive. I understand E. Truth can be played instantly when you find out what the top card is or whatever, while Serenity is a bit less versatile, but it doesn't mean it isn't the card to use.
The other thing about K. Grip is that you can use it while going off much better than with Wipe Away. Chalice at one can be easily resolved with Cabal Rit and a Trop. This leave B open to continue to go off with while Gripping the Chalice, say with the Dark Rit in your hand that you couldn't play before. You can use your rit mana for Grip more effectively.
A small aside is that Trop can bluff Thresh. Not a hugely relevant point, but it causes people to play differently game 1 when you do bluff.
I've been trying out Duress vs. Stax because while it's only extremely relevant turn 1, it can rip out 3spheres, and I hate to say it, but that's much scarier than a chalice. I can take a few turns to get around a chalice without much in the way of consequences, but 3sphere can be game ending if I don't hit 3 lands AND my grip.
True, but you're also burning mana that you could be using to combo out with that turn. You're more likely to have multiple blue sources available than your single green source available, so bouncing it at the end of their turn just seems like the more feasible play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Besides, the Tropical has a huge Wasteland-bullseye painted all over it. Granted, you'll hold off on dropping it until you need it...but I'd rather just have a basic Island that I can use right now.
I tried that...it only worked game-1, round-1, the first time I ever played the deck in my meta. At a big event, it's probably much more relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I've found it useful vs. discard-heavy decks as well...it's nice to be able to knock out their Duress/Thoughtseize/Extirpate before they get a chance to wreck my acceleration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
True, you can destroy the balance and then you can take a turn to setup your hand for the combo. But how many times does this situation happen? and how many times instead you destroy/bounce balance eot and the turn after you win with already a good hand? I presume that the second option it's more utilized.Quote:
I realize that K. Grip eot and going off on yours is the same with Wipe Away, but Grip leaves you a little more versatality if you need more time.
Sure, perhaps I don't explain my thought well. I play E.Truth maindeck usually.Quote:
So with the use of Serenity, it's 2cc is unacceptable, but E. Truth is fine. I don't understand your logic. It seems a bit contradictive. I understand E. Truth can be played instantly when you find out what the top card is or whatever, while Serenity is a bit less versatile, but it doesn't mean it isn't the card to use.
Well, when I find a CB deck, I side out E.truth for Wipe Away, not vice versa.
Instead you say that it's a possible to side in Serenity against this matchup.
Come on, if we must enumerate the faults of K.Grip, there are a dozens of them...Quote:
The other thing about K. Grip is that you can use it while going off much better than with Wipe Away. Chalice at one can be easily resolved with Cabal Rit and a Trop. This leave B open to continue to go off with while Gripping the Chalice, say with the Dark Rit in your hand that you couldn't play before. You can use your rit mana for Grip more effectively.
K.Grip and its Tropical Island against Moon effects of Dragon Stompy...
-1 island +1tropical island for a weaker manabase against decks that uses also balance like It's Fear, Dreadstill, UGB thresh and so on and against all decks that does mana denial like pikula or aggro loam...
and again with only a maindeck K.Grip we can say GG when opponent plays Mage or Teeg...
But I think that someone will change his opinion about K.Grip and Tropical Island only with excperience; when he will be for example in a situation with a good initial hand where he will lose the only blue mana source (the tropical island) and consequently the entire game for an opponent's wasteland and perhaps the opportunity to enter in T8.
You can bluff anyway with Ponders, Tundra, Sensei,...all cards used in many aggro-control dekcs.Quote:
A small aside is that Trop can bluff Thresh. Not a hugely relevant point, but it causes people to play differently game 1 when you do bluff.
Ok, ok. I don't want to change your opinion. I continue to think that side in Duress against Stax is horrible.Quote:
I've been trying out Duress vs. Stax because while it's only extremely relevant turn 1, it can rip out 3spheres, and I hate to say it, but that's much scarier than a chalice. I can take a few turns to get around a chalice without much in the way of consequences, but 3sphere can be game ending if I don't hit 3 lands AND my grip.
Anyway, I don' see many ways for the deck with the actual card pool. The deck is this: the sensei version and the street wraith version. The surplus is offered only by the ability of the player about his skill on building the right deck for his metagame, knowing how to side in/out and playing the deck properly. stop.
I'm testing this list atm:Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
// Lands
1 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [A] Tropical Island
1 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [OD] Plains
1 [PT] Island
1 [U] Swamp
// Spells
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [5E] Dark Ritual
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [6E] Doomsday
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
1 [PLC] Extirpate
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [6E] Serenity
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [FNM] Duress
Has KGrip MD become a necessity? Why not just play Death Wish?Quote:
Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ
Essentially Split Second is necessary. Given the Doomsday list wants to normally lose half of its life twice, requiring another lose half your life spell to beat a deck probably playing Goyfs doesn't seem solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
@dlevsApiJ: I understand that you want already in g1 a possible response to any hate card your opponents can propose (EtW for extirpate & mage, grip for balance and others hate cards...). I prefer a more linear and slim deck with less nails like EtW into the deck. I start with the principle that we play 3 games and I can lose the first(extirpate on ToA for exmple is gg in g1 with my list); instead I don't want to lose because for example I can't go in hellbent cause to EtW or K.Grip and so on...
Anyone has his game style and I respect them.
Usually I'm bored about questions on the deckbuilding, instead I prefer questions about game style of the players. They can help to improve our ability.
Yesterday I was playing against a my friend with Moonthresh (usual stuff: daze, stifle, magus, tarmo....no spell snare) and during a game I was in this particular situation with many ways I can take. I presume this was a fundamental choice for the game.
I mulligan to 5 and I was in a disavantage situation respect to my opponent.
It was the third or forth turn, my opponent was at 20 lifes and he had 6 cards in hand and only lands into the table.
I had 3 lands on the board (no fetches).
My hand was composed by: petal, LED, land (no fetch), mystical, ritual.
1- We were in the opponent's EOT. Well, for you what is the correct choice?
Mystical EOT for:
- orim
- brainstorm
- infernal tutor
- cruel bargain
- keep the mystical tutor in hand for later
?
2- And if my opponent has into play a Tarmo.....?
3- And if I have into hand / play a fetch....?
Plz, I don't want a response of the type: we haven't enought factors to evaluate the right choice, bla, bla, bla...I think that there are enough factors to do a choice.
I propose this question, because I see that sometimes I'm in a disavantage position with mystical in hand and with the right play of mystical I can recuperate the disavantage or instead increase my disavantage (but often in this situation the only way, I have to recuperate disavantage, is to hope my opponent fault something...).
Next post I'll write my choice.
I understand how the not enough info can be a rather annoying thing but it really matters... For example what 3 lands do you have? Could I cast the Baragain without cracking the Diamond or even the petal?
Do you run 4 Cabal rits and also have thresh... How many tendrils do you run?
This deck is a numbers game. There is a mathematical logic to our decisions and without it we cannot make the ideal informed decsion. In all likelyhood if it was my list and play style I would try and grab the bargain... Then hold it until I had a chant or felt I was able to still go off the same turn assuming the bargain is countered.
However if I had any choice I might actually grab a doomsday now that I think about it and pray for a top assumeing I couldn't actually just use one of the 5 slots to put a top in the pile. If you are feeling risky (which given the situation you shouldnt) I would opt for this since you may be able to win right there if they dont counter depending on your list.
At the described point in time we have nearly an eternity to find our god hand. Until he plays a threat we are truly golden.
One other important thing is... is this game 1 or 2? This matters because of the possible hate he may have brought in and also wether he knows what our deck is and what it runs.
Since the opponent might have Counterbalance in the deck, I'd stand still with that hand, hoping for more information in the following turns (read: topdecking cantrips/top). Going kamikaze does nothing for this deck. In a more desperate situation, you could Mystical for Draw4 and try to cast it off a single ritual or Petals + lands or simply lands, if possible. If your opponent let that resolve, he may have only one Force of Will in hand, possibly meaning you are in a good situation. Anyway, it could be a bluff, but letting you draw into cantrips and Chants while not putting pressure is good for you. Note: using petals for casting Draw4 might get you stuck with a single W on the table, in case he plays Magus. You wouldn't be able to cast the 2nd Chant in the same turn, wasting storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Tarmogoyf on the table hitting for 3-4 puts you in a bad situation, specially because in this example, your opponent still has 6 cards in hand. Mystical into Draw4 could get you dead one to three turns after, most likely two. You'd better hope for some nice topdecks, since it's already turn 3 and you've got zero business in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Not sure what you are saying with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
You have no Chants, no tops. You'd grab Doomsday, reveal it to your opponent, "skip" your next draw step and say go. You are forced to wait one more turn, possibly drawing into enablers for double Tendrils or double Chant (leading to lots of storm for a single Tendrils or protection for IGG) or anything that doesn't need Doomsday.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
I assume my life total is something around 20.
I assume the opponent has some sort of counterspell online with 6 cards in hand, so I'm playing accordingly.
I'd save the mystical.
That's because if the opponent plays counterbalance you can still mystical for Wipe Away. If you draw a Brainstorm/Ponder you can use the mystical as shuffle effect, if you draw an acceleration/business/protection piece you can tutor next turn for whatever you lack.
If the opponent just played a Tarmo I'd save the mystical anyway: I still have at least 3-4 turns to win.
If I got a fetch in play I'd think about it, but I'll decide anyway to save it. If I draw chaff for my turn, I'll then tutor for brainstorm.
I have not played combo in legacy for some time. This is due to the amount of threshold in my metagame. It seems that the combo decks are now being able to push through these match-ups. Now my question is why is Fetchland-Tendrills better than the other combo decks (solidarity, iggypop, and tes)???
Quote:
Originally Posted by e_hawk77
Fetchland Tendrils is not better than Iggy Pop or TES. I think Solidarity has fallen off the radar because all the other combo decks in the format and faster and more consistent.
In Legacy, I only found Dredge, Iggy Pop, or TES as the only viable combo decks to play if your looking for consistent results. I'm a personal fan of Iggy Pop b/c of the basic lands you can play.
Right now Fetchland Tendrils is a joke with SDT, Doomsday, and no Lotus Petal. I'm not sure what kind of metagame this deck actually wins, but in Syracuse it would get destroyed since its just a lot slower than both TES, Dredge, and Iggy Pop.
There's nothing stopping people from running the Lotus Petal/SW-style Fetchland Tendrils list.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
IIRC, it was a DTB before June, so it was winning somewhere.
I've been testing a hybrid list with all 4 Lotus Petals, plus the 4th Ponder (I forget what the other changes are offhand). I should be able to report it's success/failure against the field in a couple of weeks.
I'm tired of people saying stupid stuff like that. Goldfish the Top+Doomsday version and you'll se the only versions of this deck that are significantly faster are those which pack 2 IGG, but since using that is death versus recurred Dazes and Forces of Will, it shows no relevant information at all. Anyway, hail to Syracuse. Was Chuck Norris born there?Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
I don't know what's wrong with a combo that that goldfishes turn 3 80% of the time (I'm not saying 3 or earlier... I'm saying 3) and that virtually doesn't fizzle by itself (save when you are going off Draw4, which is more rare than anything else). Add this to being able to combo as fast as that without using your graveyard at all, instead of scooping to Tormod's Crypt.
Finally, you can't be serious to compare this with Ichorid. It's like comparing 43 Lands with 9 Land Stompy. Actually, you can't compare any other deck to Ichorid.
When did he compare them? All he said was that Ichorid is one of the 3 best combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
The only version of this combo that won was the Lotus Petal version and that was a while ago. I never understodd why this deck changed so much. If it aint broke, don't fix it.
This deck will not only out-control Iggy Pop, it will do so while comboing faster. I'll bet money on it. Iggy Pop was a deck virtually designed to lose to Extirpate, a tutorable card that FT plays main. Iggy Pop can't win the chant war, or even the card quality war in general. The two variants that are even similar to old Iggy Pop are SW Fetchland Tendrils and iPop Negation. Neither of these decks can consistently goldfish FT because they are deathly afraid of Chant and Extirpate. It doesn't actually get better for FT postboard, but at least iPop Negation has the *opportunity* to try to use Pacts/FoW to go off early.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Now, traditional Iggy Pop and some early SW FT lists had Xantid Swarm. This isn't actually helping the enemy combo deck any because you either get Chanted in response to the Xantid Swarm trigger or you just get combo'd because you don't have relevant responses (Chants/Abeyances of your own).
TES has a faster goldfish but cannot find its anti-combo cards as fast as FT can. This dramatically slows TES down if it doesn't win turn 1 on the play with Tendrils. ETW isn't an option due to tutorable mass bounce played by FT. If you go all in all the time like Bryant against FT you'll get embarrassed like Bryant against FT. You really need to play the Chant war, which means you're going to pray that you're playing Xantid Swarm, because the match is over with otherwise.
Ichorid is the worst deck you mentioned. Iggy Pop is dead, but at least the modern variants have a chance to play out the combo mirror to try to gain Chant advantage. Ichorid just loses. They get chanted when they have relevant cards in they graveyard and creatures about to come into play. They get key cards Extirpated (that deck cannot "go off" without Narcomoeba or Dread Return). They lose a much more consistent goldfish that completely ignores their only hate. If I could play against Ichorid every match I would have a 90% win percentage and a 2200 eternal rating. For Ichorid to win vs FT requires so many things to fall into place that they might as well be playing Standard Burn (at least Burn might have a chance to catch me with a Doomsday/Draw4).
In short, you don't want to play a combo mirror with FT. Our anti-thresh strategy of Chant/Abeyance/Extirpate advantage is not only superior to whatever your combo deck wants to play, we can find ours faster due to better manipulation spells.
The Doomsday version plays a Lotus Petal. It's integral to the standard Sensei's Top pile. Sensei's Top provides card quality, an extended hand size, and enables Doomsday.
At the GP Indy Side event, having Sensei's Tops over Lotus Petals won me several matches that I could not have won otherwise, including a particularly brutal RB Goblins match where I escaped 2-0 despite seeing Chalice of the Voids, Leylines, multiple discard spells, and getting capped by an Earwig Squad. Iggy Pop or SW FT would have rolled over to the fast permanent disruption and discard spells before passing out to the Earwig Squad. Doomsday shrugged, manipulated its deck to get Tendrils in hand, played some rituals, looped some tops, and cast the Tendrils for lethal despite not having a true storm engine. Against Loam, staring down Leyline, Gaddock Teeg, lethal, after a turn one involving THoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, SW FT loses the game. Doomsday plays some ritual effects and casts Doomsday. The Doomsday stack finds draw, mana, mana, sensei's top, brain freeze. Doomsday wins anyway through hate that classic lists roll over to. In one of my two losses, I'm playing as an X-1. Against 4c Counterbalance Thresh with all the right cards against me, I'm horribly manascrewed. I've kgripped a couple Counterbalances, but I'm still staring at lethal. My hand is full of acceleration and my lonely ETW. The worst part is that I've yet to see a Fetchland, land that taps for black, or land that taps for red. I do have three lovely sensei's tops through. On my endstep I top into Mystical Tutor, Doomsday, and Dark Ritual (hand is Dark Ritx2, Cabal Rit x2, ETW, LED x2) and form a plan. I'm going to combo, probably through Force of Will, without black or red mana. Nothing in SW FT is going to help me here. What's going to save my ass is the power of Sensei's Top. I play LEDs, draw my Doomsday and run it into a Force. I rearrange, draw a Mystical and for Infernal Tutor. I draw my Infernal, breaking LED for black to cast it (obv with the Top activation on the stack) and go get Tendrils. It's not lethal, but my opp has to survive 2 blind flips from Dark Confidant at 1 life without me drawing relevant cards. He does, I don't and I finish at X-2. I was put into situations all day where my opponent had 2 or more hate cards online turn 1 with more getting piled on and the Doomsday deck just got me there. My losses were to a misplay on my part (the snazzy game vs Thresh was a fuckup because I misplayed that last turn and should have outright won) and drawing 1 Chant/Abeyance/Mystical/Extirpate in 30 cards vs Mono Blue Landstill in a postboard game.
I've yet to run into a reason why I should extra copies of cards like Lotus Petal that are fucking abysmal in my hardest matchups over cards like Sensei's Divining Top that shine against the hate. As far as I can tell, you (nickrit2000) are the only person who either failed during playtesting or just didn't playtest it at all. Maybe you need some help with Doomsday piles. If that's the case, I wrote a small intro to Doomsday in FT here: http://emidln.googlepages.com/doomsdaystacks
[OT trash talking]
As far as playing in Syracuse, I have no idea what gets played there, but I do know I would take in the metagame and adjust my deck to what gets played there. I can tell you that adjusting the deck would not include taking out Tops or Doomsday though. I have a feeling that people pack hate with either discard or countermagic there too (and if they don't, I'm going to wreck with SI). Seeing as every time someone from my team runs one of my combo decks (usually on very little testing on their own accord) in your town they Top8, I see little reason to believe that the trend won't continue when Jon and Chris brings it to you later this month. The only question I have about the Syracuse meta is the exact formula: "One BZK combo deck, one top8?" or "One BZK combo player, one top8".
[/OT trash talking]