[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

I play a pretty hateful Merfolk list. 4 FoW, 4 Daze, 2 Pierce, 2 Snare, 3 Standstill, 4 Cursecatcher; the board has the 3rd Pierce and 2 Vendillion Clique.

TES is a bye. I have lost one game in about a dozen matches, and even that I would've won had I ripped a 2 drop merfolk instead of a Reejery. The key thing here is that when storm beats Merfolk, it generally does it the turn before the merfolk player is going to kill them. UB tendrils doesn't get hit by Wasteland; TES always gets hit by Wasteland. That's a turn right there. Let's not even discuss how awful Orim's Chant is compared to Duress. It's like a Duress that only works if you Duress'd them the turn before.

UB tendrils, however, is a close matchup, and variance definitely favors storm's good hands over Merfolk's. Personally I don't see how TES is in any way real; none of its matchups are better than UB, and some of them are definitely worse. It seems like the only thing it has going for it is the ability to randomly steal a game from CounterTop with an early EtW.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Let's not even discuss how awful Orim's Chant is compared to Duress. It's like a Duress that only works if you Duress'd them the turn before.

UB tendrils, however, is a close matchup, and variance definitely favors storm's good hands over Merfolk's. Personally I don't see how TES is in any way real; none of its matchups are better than UB, and some of them are definitely worse. It seems like the only thing it has going for it is the ability to randomly steal a game from CounterTop with an early EtW.

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How can you possibly think Chant is horrible? Chant is ALWAYS a must-counter. If Chant ever resolves, you win. Think of it like this, if you duress a hand with 2 counterspells, you take one, and then have to wait. If you Chant a hand with 2 counterspells, you still get rid of at least one, and you can get lucky by making them force+pitch a counter.

TES is a real deck because it has more business spells than UB Storm and doesn't have to wait until turn 3 for its rituals to stop being terrible.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

You are confusing the current builds of UB storm with a deck that depends on Ad Naus to kill, as compared to what it currently is, where Ad Naus is a matchup specific tool used to fight attrition wars and matchups where you just have to go for it as fast as possible (ie. CB-Top game ones and the mirror) as well as an enabler for the best draws to win on turn 1-2. Very specifically the swap from Mystical and Top to cantrips has enabled Cabal Ritual to be +3 mana by turn three, allowing for not only easier kills at that point through soft disruption like Daze but allowing the deck to move away from needing Ad Naus or IGG and just Tutor chaining to a kill at the cost of waiting slightly over a turn on average, which is very reasonable against decks where Force of Will is an issue for IGG. The added mana also allows for IGG kills that involve a Duress, which beats a single Force easily.

In terms of end games, UB Storm has 3-4 lines (IGG, Tutor Chains, Ad Naus, post board Chain of Vapor). TES has 5 (Empty, Ad Naus, IGG, Dim Returns). The only real gains are being able to just jam an Empty when necessary and Dim Ret providing a couple more live draws when at low life and low hand size, though just having more cantrips usually means you can power through discard before those decks kill you.

As for Chants, that versus more discard is it's own argument. Chant/Xantid is awesome in a world of tempo decks where you need to stop Snare + Stifle. Thoughtseize is where its at in a world of permanent based hate like Canonist, Teeg, Chalice, etc.

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I think you underestimate the power of being able to just go 12 Goblins, have fun dealing with this. Also, I use Chant on upkeep very often to prevent permanent hate. I also think you underestimate the life loss of Seize.

EDIT: Xantid beats Merfolk pretty hard. Also, TES can easily Ad Nauseam at like 12 life and still win a healthy amount of the time with no mana floating, or very little mana floating ince it has so man 0's

Chant is pretty boss, especially if you're going the IGG route versus a deck packing FoW. Resolved Chant = GGPO.

EDIT: Yes, Duress in an IGG loop can also get there, but there is additional setup required that you don't run into when you can simply resolve Chant.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I think you underestimate the power of being able to just go 12 Goblins, have fun dealing with this. Also, I use Chant on upkeep very often to prevent permanent hate. I also think you underestimate the life loss of Seize.

EDIT: Xantid beats Merfolk pretty hard. Also, TES can easily Ad Nauseam at like 12 life and still win a healthy amount of the time with no mana floating, or very little mana floating ince it has so man 0's

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I agree with you in terms of juts popping out 10-12 goblisn on T1 or T2, against most decks that goes all the way.

Vs the fancy merfolk list with way to many counters: ever faced a xantid swarm? you'll face defeat when it sticks and you only have 1 spell taht stops it: force.

Tes has a better ad nauseam than ANT does, simply because they find business faster and with a lot less ammount life lost. Also they're not depending on LED because of burning wish.
ANT is more meta- gamed right now because the 2 most played cards in the format are Force of Will and Wasteland. Wasteland can totally take down TES because of the fancy ammount of colors, ANt can combo out in a single color where TES high likely needs at least 2 (maybe even 3 because they possibly are stuck with chants instead of discard)

Chants are totally awesome, and I'm not yet decided which sideboard slot I'll be using against merfolk and tempodecks:
- xantid swarm
- carpet of flowers
- orim's chant (yup, gotta board some lands for those, manabase hardly changed)
- anything new I haven't discovered yet.

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Originally Posted by practical joke

Chants are totally awesome, and I'm not yet decided which sideboard slot I'll be using against merfolk and tempodecks:
- xantid swarm
- carpet of flowers
- orim's chant (yup, gotta board some lands for those, manabase hardly changed)
- anything new I haven't discovered yet.

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Depends what tempo decks you are facing and whether you wanna beat the tempo or merfolk decks more.

Xantid Swarm > Merfolk. Hard. However it's a bit soft to the tempo decks.
Carpet can easily win v most tempo decks but v merfolk it can be a bit weak as they can play around it with vial/fast clock
Chant is pretty much the middle ground. Still weak to force but if you play around the tax effects its the tits.

Hi,

i need help regarding Doomsday.. can anyone give me pointers on how to make a proper pile and combo on these two (2):

1. Doomsday -> Tendrils

2. Doomsday -> Emrakul.

Thanks everyone.

Everyone plays Wasteland. You still want to play close to no basics in your 15 land combo deck.

Good game.

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Originally Posted by rnightingale

Hi,

i need help regarding Doomsday.. can anyone give me pointers on how to make a proper pile and combo on these two (2):

1. Doomsday -> Tendrils

2. Doomsday -> Emrakul.

Thanks everyone.

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if you read some of the rest of the thread it's there i'd say start around 20 pages back or so, there are also other resources including, emidln's signature where he has a spread of various doomsday piles depending on the deck you are playing and that use it, or you can sit down and figure the puzzle out yourself, which is probably a lot better for you long term since making doomsday stacks on the fly is probably a good skill to have, in case you run into random hate you need to fight through.

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Originally Posted by practical joke

I agree with you in terms of juts popping out 10-12 goblisn on T1 or T2, against most decks that goes all the way.

Vs the fancy merfolk list with way to many counters: ever faced a xantid swarm? you'll face defeat when it sticks and you only have 1 spell taht stops it: force.

Tes has a better ad nauseam than ANT does, simply because they find business faster and with a lot less ammount life lost. Also they're not depending on LED because of burning wish.
ANT is more meta- gamed right now because the 2 most played cards in the format are Force of Will and Wasteland. Wasteland can totally take down TES because of the fancy ammount of colors, ANt can combo out in a single color where TES high likely needs at least 2 (maybe even 3 because they possibly are stuck with chants instead of discard)

Chants are totally awesome, and I'm not yet decided which sideboard slot I'll be using against merfolk and tempodecks:
- xantid swarm
- carpet of flowers
- orim's chant (yup, gotta board some lands for those, manabase hardly changed)
- anything new I haven't discovered yet.

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I recommend Orim's Chant, since it is pretty good against Dredge as well. It is also just really good against all the Tempo decks instead of only TA and Merfolk.

TES is for kids!!

Just had to randomly post that 'cause it's too funny

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Originally Posted by kikoo

TES is for kids!!

Just had to randomly post that 'cause it's too funny

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Haha funny, and jet quite impressive! (although I would have sacced the LED in response to the Adn)

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I recommend Orim's Chant, since it is pretty good against Dredge as well. It is also just really good against all the Tempo decks instead of only TA and Merfolk.

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you shouldn't lose to dredge. period.

My meta is weak on merfolk but a bit more heavy on the treshhold decks in comparison, so I'm not affraid for the merfolk decks anyways since those are a fine match.

Then again need to try which one is more effective since spell snare is nearly a hardcounter and ill-gotten gains without a silence effect isn't very good.

Yep.

I realize that Dredge is a bye, but why not throw in more shit against it if it splashes?

Also, Chant is very good against Spell Snare...

It is generally advisable to _use_ facts instead of argue them.

The last three major Legacy events put a total of four UB tendrils decks, and zero TES decks, into the top16.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

It is generally advisable to _use_ facts instead of argue them.

The last three major Legacy events put a total of four UB tendrils decks, and zero TES decks, into the top16.

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TES top 8'd a Grand Prix.

Ari is a good player, he probably would've Top 8'd with TES too. Also, I think more people (that can actually play storm) play ANT over TES since they feel it's better positioned.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think that ANT is a good deck, and sometimes it's a better choice than TES, I just think that TES is more powerful and more flexible.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

TES top 8'd a Grand Prix.

Ari is a good player, he probably would've Top 8'd with TES too. Also, I think more people (that can actually play storm) play ANT over TES since they feel it's better positioned.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think that ANT is a good deck, and sometimes it's a better choice than TES, I just think that TES is more powerful and more flexible.

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Ari Lax placed 11th at the same GP with ANT

but that doesn't matter, GP was a long time ago and both Bryant and Ari proved combo is far from dead after bannings, both decks have become harder to play without mystical tutor. So less and less ppl pick the deck up because it's not that easy as they thought (not seeing certain combinations or how to cantrip succesfully). So less and less ppl use ANT + TES then after the GP in Madrid.

and actually I'm tired of talking about the differences between TES and ANT, which one is better and why, because it's no use to keep talking about it since you have to figure that shit out for yourself.

I'm here to talk about possible sideboard/mainboard ideas about ANT, new ways of approaching a difficult match-up or new sideboard techs, I'm willing to help ppl that have questions about ANT (might it be how to play or how to use cantrips/sideboard properly)

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Originally Posted by practical joke

and actually I'm tired of talking about the differences between TES and ANT, which one is better and why, because it's no use to keep talking about it since you have to figure that shit out for yourself.

I'm here to talk about possible sideboard/mainboard ideas about ANT, new ways of approaching a difficult match-up or new sideboard techs, I'm willing to help ppl that have questions about ANT (might it be how to play or how to use cantrips/sideboard properly)

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Thanks for posting this. I couldn't agree more. Just saying "my deck is better than yours" doesn't accomplish anything. We should discuss SB plans, opening hands, play sequences etc.
Though I'm a TES player. I recognise the strenghts of ANT and sometimes sleeve it up to test. Both decks have their merits.

Besides, instead of calling each others deck shit, we should respect each other: we both joined the dark side :rolleyes:

Normally I am more of a lurker. I read a lot in the internet but don't write about my thoughts that often. I have been playing combo for quite a while and last Saturday I played in a 123 person tournament and placed 6th. After starting 0-1 in the swiss I won six rounds in row and then lost my quarterfinal. I don't want to write a detailed report but instead write about my experiences with ANT and its issues in general.

I played the following list, which isn't that different from the one Ari uses:

Maindeck (60):

1 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Swamp
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard (15):

1 Shelldock Isle
1 Thoughtseize
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Trickbind
2 Echoing Truth
2 Rebuilt
4 Doomsday
1 Ad Nauseam

Tournament matchups:

1) 0-2 Dredge
2) 2-0 Merfolk
3) 2-1 CB
4) 2-0 Zoo
5) 2-1 CB
6) 2-0 BW-D&T with both Crusaders from MBS
7) 2-0 Zoo
Quarterfinal: 0-2 Merfolk (with Stifle and Dreadnought, Mulligan to 5 first game, 2nd game slow hand vs. 2nd turn Dreadnought)

“My” decklist

As I said it's quite standard. I like playing without Chrome Mox and with the 7th discard-effect. I had one open slot in the maindeck and filled it with Chain of Vapor because I was a little bit afraid of Zoo-lists with Teeg main. In addition I played a 3rd U.Sea over the 10th fetchland. Both of these changes aren't necessary and in my next tournament I'll most likely play the manabase Ari is playing and switch the maindeck Chain for a Grim Tutor because sometimes finding an Infernal Tutor is a little bit too hard for my taste.

The Echoing Truths in the SB weren't needed at all and I will play “just” 4 Chain of Vapor in the future.

Main winning option

I won 12 games last Saturday, 1 with Ad Nauseam, 2 with Doomsday, 1 with Ill-Gotten Gains and 8 by chaining spells and killing directly with Tendrils. I really like the playstyle a lot. But in my opinion this playstyle has two problems:
1) You are more likely to keep slow hands without any of Dark Ritual, LED or Infernal Tutor.
2) Executing chaining spells for the win gets a lot harder when you have mulliganed or the opponent plays a lot of discard effects.

This leads to some thought about what starting-hands should be kept and what not.

Starting hands

I lost round one vs. Dredge partly to keeping bad hands. I knew that my opponent was playing Dredge and that he was very inexperienced with it. G1 I kept something like: 2 Lands, Thoughtseize, Ill-Gotten Gains, 2 LED, Dark Ritual (on the play). My logic was that the discard-spell should buy me some time and all cantrips and tutors should be good game. I discarded his only outlet but he drew Breakthrough in his first drawstep. I didn't draw any business and therefore lost quickly. I don't remember the 2nd game that well but I had another nonexplosive hand that I kept and lost to Iona (I brought in Chain of course).

This experience leads to some questions:

How high do you value discards-spells vs. Dredge?

What hands should be mulliganed or kept vs. fast decks like Dredge, the mirror or TES? At the moment I came to the conclusion that the starting hand needs to have at least LED or Infernal Tutor or Dark Ritual in it.

Dredge

I know that ANT is favored vs. Dredge but I still lose to it in tournaments and I hate losing to Dredge. ;) I playtested the matchup a bit and I know that it's favorable and what to do in general. But I keep getting really slow hands vs. Dredge in tournaments.
My boarding plan (depending on the maindeck) is swapping Duress for addition bounce. Would you board in the 2nd Ad Nauseam too?

Sideboarding

I really like the “new” Doomsday-SB. I read the discussion about what to sideboard vs. Counterbalance this is my current opinion (where x is depending on your decklist):
- 2 Islands
- x Preordain
- 1 Ad Nauseam
- 1 Ill-Gotten Gains
- Chain of Vapor/Grim Tutor
+ 4 Doomsday
+ x Thoughtseize
+ 1 Shelldock Isle
+ 1 Emrakul
+ 1 Trickbind

I really don't like boarding out Infernals, LEDs and the Tendrils. As I said earlier I win most of my matches with a chained Tendrils and therefore I would like to have that option still after boarding. Even vs. Counterbalance! In game 3 of round 3 I won the 3rd game by playing Tendrils for 20. I most likely would have won with Doomsday too, but it's just one slot that opens up a lot of easy wins.

The End

I know that this post is a little bit longer than usual and maybe a bit too unfocused. But I would appreciate any helpful discussion about my thoughts and issues with ANT.

Thank you in advance,

Felix