You finally made it down to one of those tournaments! It's too bad you didn't face Maverick, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Nice report.
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You finally made it down to one of those tournaments! It's too bad you didn't face Maverick, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Nice report.
21 Land with 3x Mox Diamond?!? I understand how great diamond can be, but it seems a little crazy with only 21 lands. How often does it turn on? How often is it dead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
Also, props for fitting in planeswalkers. How has she been? Have you considered Garruk Relentless?
I disagree Angels. Canonist shuts down Storm decks, yes. And I know she and Gaddock Teeg are the go-to combo hate bears. But there are a few reasons I think Thalia is actually better.
Thalia requires an immediate answer, especially from a Storm player. And that answer is probably going to come a turn later than if it were Canonist. Storm runs somewhere between 12-16 lands, none of them are basic usually. Between Wasteland and Hymn, I have a very real chance of locking them out of the game with Thalia. When all their rituals and cantrips cost 1 more, you are probably gaining at least a couple turns on them. Again, with Canonist they can still operate as normal, sculpting their hand for that one big turn, and then just bounce or kill her the turn they go off. Thalia hinders their development much much more, and the extra mana required to kill her (often 2 mana if they have to tutor the answer) can mean she sticks around just long enough for you to disrupt them or win the game.
Same is true for High Tide, Hive Mind, Reanimator and Sneak/Show plans. Canonist is nearly dead against Hive Mind and Reanimator, and isn't all that great against High Tide either (again, they just wait for the one big turn, then bounce her). Thalia shuts all those decks down just as brutally, and in combination with Choke and the Wastelands can just lock them out of the game completely. My maindeck Plan A is reinforced by Thalia and synergizes with the rest of my sideboard. Constrict their mana, rip apart their hand, and get in with beats as fast as possible.
Will she still die? Yes, but at least you got value out of her right away. She comes in against a wider range of decks (control even), and hinders their development much more than the other hate bears. I think part of the reason Maverick is so successful right now is actually because of Thalia. She's a house.
It's 23 lands Mirrislegend. I considered running 2 Moxen, but it's really most effective on turn 1 game 1, so I want 3. I only need a 2-3 land hand with a Mox to feel okay about things as long as my curve is low.
Elspeth is awesome, can't say enough about her. I've considered Garruk but I don't really need the extra creature kill, and the rest of him doesn't compare to Elspeth. She comes in at 5 with a blocker, and usually sticks for more than a turn. She wins games I had no business winning otherwise. She requires so much effort to kill her, that I can continue to draw live for a few more turns while they try and get rid of her. She's definitely the 2nd best 4-mana planeswalker ever printed in my opinion, hands down. Running 2 also ups my threat count.
I was running 2 Lilianas in the 75, but ended up cutting them for the Thalias. I'm pretty cold to a resolved Progenitus, but otherwise I'm not sure Lily was going to help much in the other combo matches. I still like her, but I think she's best when you can abuse her +1 better than your opponent.
It is 23 lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
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Interesting point on Thalia. It may be worth giving her a spin. She also provides a non-artifact threat so siding her against burn is also a real thing.
-Edit-
For the combo matches that I'd bring Thalia in, it seems as though it's mostly spells that are going out (4 Swords, x Pulses, Goyf, and possibly other things). Taxing every spell by one has been seeming like a better call the more I think about it. It also occurs to me that we can cast majority of our actual spells with our own Thalia in play (i.e. Swords costs 1W, Thoughtseize/Inquisition cost 1B). We shouldn't have much issue staying with our plan, albeit a little slower.
In most combo matches, I don't think you side out any creatures to be honest, especially not Goyf. He's one of your fastest ways to close the game.
But yes, a lot of the spells can come out. Against most combo I would probably do something like this:
-2 Elspeth
-4 Swords
-1 Darkblast
-1 Vindicate
+2 Surgical
+1 Extirpate
+3 Thalia
+2 Choke/Loam/Deed
The Chokes come in against Hive Mind, High Tide, and the other Sneak/Show decks, especially if they have a decent amount of duals. Loam comes in when I have nothing better going on and when Wastelands are relevant. Deed is actually not terrible against Storm (hits Goblin tokens and all their Mox effects), and it's probably slightly better than Vindicate. Also it's a good catchall if they happen to have a creature sideboard.
I'm actually considering running the 4th Thalia over the 3rd Choke. She's that good, and when I want to hit one, I really want to hit her. She's best on turn 1 or 2. And seeing multiples is totally fine in matchups where she matters. After playing her in my Modern Boros maindeck as a 4-of, I can tell you how awesome it is to see people struggle and squirm after she resolves. Delver decks, Control decks, Combo (U/R storm in modern basically scoops to her); all those decks have serious trouble once she's in play, especially when they don't have the 1-drop removal answer. Legacy is even more dependent on cheap and free spells, so I have no doubt she will be simply amazing. Also, people still don't see it coming. Kinda like Zombies ;)
EDIT: I forgot, Bojuka Bog comes in too, against Storm at least, probably swaps with a Maze of Ith.
I really like the thalia approach. I have to put this deck together again, especially I love the Mox Diamond!
What I dislike is the complete cut of GSZ, having a first turn dryad arbor boost besid Mox felt always good to me. And it makes one Gaddock Teeg reasonable and also you automatically play more Ooze and Knights. Especially a fast Ooze often helps alot in many matchups. I also don't know if Eslpeth is so awesome, sure she can break games especially against Control decks, but atm I more fear RUG, R/U-aggro-burng with avacyn restored and Maverick. At least in Maverick Eslpeth brokes a stalling game in the long run.
also thumps up for 4 Hymns and one Darkblast!!
Yes, definitely decided to run 4 Thalia. I DON'T want to lose to combo.
I didn't 'cut' Green Sun's Zenith, I just never added it in the first place. (Well to be fair, I tried a 1-of for a bit). I love the card, but I still don't like it in Junk. Being able to reliably ramp into Dryad Arbor turn 1 means you need 3-4 Zenith, and it's really not necessary next to Mox. Drawing Dryad Arbor sucks balls. And having a Fragile Forest in a field of Wastelands and burn spells makes the mana base even more vulnerable. I don't particularly like Gaddock Teeg: he helps but he's rarely won me a game. And I'm just fine with my 3/2 splits on Goyfs and Oozes and the 4 Knights. I'd rather pay 3 and draw Knight naturally than pay 4. And between Top/Library and Bob, I still usually draw the right threats most of the time. I understand the attraction to GSZ, but I've always felt it's better suited to Bant/NO Rug/Maverick decks.
It would take a lot to convince me Elspeth is just mediocre. She does very little in Combo matchups, but beyond that I think she's relevant in just about any other game. While RUG Tempo and Maverick are big decks, I'm going to see a lot more variety than just those 2 decks over 10 rounds. And in all those matchups, Elspeth still defends you well and threatens to take over the game if they can't find an answer. Clogging up the ground is just fine against Goyfs and Mongooses. Ticking her up to her ultimate is scary for any permanent-based deck. Being able to jump your 10/10 KOTR for the win is also a very invaluable play. She's so hard to remove with damage once she sticks, and if she survives for more than a couple turns you are just miles ahead on resources and tempo. I also already feel pretty confident about my matchup against RUG and Maverick. 3 Deeds out of the sideboard shores things up pretty well.
Thanks for the props on Hymn and Darkblast. I think Hymn is going to be quite a surprise for some people this weekend.
I was recently struck by a lovely little chord of paranoia: Temporal Mastery has gotten a lot of attention. If it turns out to be the real deal, it effectively invalidates Hymn by allowing players to go from zero to hero with an empty handQuote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
You mean Reforge the Soul? I'm not worried about a 5-mana Wheel of Fortune. If they do that, I'm fine with drawing 7 more cards too, as I'm probably going to hit more discard anyway. But seriously, none of the Miracle cards are all that playable in Legacy yet, it will take some work to get them into the mainstream. I'd almost prefer my opponent jam them into his otherwise streamlined deck.
EDIT: I'm not saying Miracles are unplayable in Legacy, just that no one will have had enough time to really test them out before this Sunday. Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Temporal Mastery, and possibly Reforge the Souls all seem Legacy playable, but they also require a heavy commitment to set them up properly. I'm fine with my opponents durdling around with Miracles on Sunday when I have utmost confidence in my deck and how it functions. Disruption + Pressure is still a perfectly fine plan against control and combo decks that are trying to manipulate their library to gain value. Not to mention, Thalia seems like a nasty way to punish those players relying heavily on Brainstorms, Ponders, and Personal Tutors, and adding 1 more mana to the Miracle cards, Miracled or not, makes them even less miraculous. I do think eventually Miracles will find a strong foothold within the format, it will just take a bit more time to sort out the details.
4 is maybe not needed since you run already some discard and you get a fast clock running. 3 should be enough for sure, maybe one more slot for graveyard hate. Beside Maverick and RUG, I would fear Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
Your arguments against GSZ packages sounds reasonable, I guess there are just 2 version how you can play rock.
Elspeth, is imo to slow vs RUG and vs Dredge and bad vs Combo and bad vs U/R delver-burn, don`t know, 2 seesm just one to many for me. But I have to admit it is more a feeling than anything else. ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
I really like your list, maybe I would go:
-1 Hymn
-1 Eslpeth
+2 Liliana
To those of you playing anywhere today, Good Luck. Don't get paired against combo or burn.
Also, Has anyone else outside of Matt, or I, attempted to use Timely Reinforcements?
Looking at lists, this seems to be accurate. There are the GSZ + SFM builds, then there are the straight KotR/Bob/Goyf lists. Personally, I think there are better decks if you're looking for GSZ action (Maverick) and SFM action (Stoneblade), but that's just me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorondor
Well, it's the argument of, "Why do something when something else is doing it better?"
For those of you familiar with Math or Bio, think of decks doing something well, or the good decks in general, as local maxima with unstable equilibria. As you move away from the maximum value, you roll away to a minimum. What I essentially mean is if you're close to doing something as well as them, you might as well just do that. It's also like climbing the fitness surface model in Biology.
http://www.learner.org/courses/mathi...ts/13/1763.png
Knight/Bob/Goyf decks are efficient at what they do: disrupt, drop threat, murder.
SFM/GSZ is more about value and long term.
Straight GSZ is fine, but plays a lot more like the first K/B/G lists.
Suffice to say, I've got my list to a point where I really like it, so I'm going to run with it for a while and see how it goes. Too bad SCG won't come to Canada.
-Matt
nice explanation sdematt, but you obviously have to agree that this may only be a local stable equilibrium there could be another one on the same level or maybe even more stable. ;-)
But somehow I agree, the build without GSZ ist the more aggressive one, especially with bob and discard, it`s always good to get some dudes going (e.g. goyf, ooze, knight)
I am disappointed to see no Rock in Top32 from scg providence, only this fancy pod version which I donīt like. Also it is more like a Nic Fit version than a Rock version.
Maybe no one played it, or they had to play bad matchups all day long.
Stax placed 9th. Things can happen.
-Matt
I did run into a guy playing it in round 4, didn't see how he finished though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I've been testing my rock version on mws for a week, and realized some things.
1. Timely reinforcements is a house against burn, UR Delver, maverick or any other agroo deck, 80% of the times playing it, makes both tokens and 6 life. being a sorcerie isn't really a big deal. It makes the difference on the match, meaning 2 less bolts to the face and 3 very relevant blockers.
2. I like a lot EEx2 on md. Combinig casting cost and activation cost it is always cheaper than pernicious deed and easiest to cast and blow on the same turn. But, if we land a deed on the board, it makes our opponent to control their drops, that's something that EE doesn't do very well, anyway due to the amount of delvers and mavericks, I consider EE is so much better on md. I'm also keeping 2 pernicious on sb just in case, i'm considering to take them out.
3.After testing GSZ rock, SFM rock, GSZ+SFM rock and classic rock, well ... just in a personal opinion I preffer the GSZ version, because it's the one who sticks more to the normal sinergy of the deck and also giving it a plus of fetching relevant creatures, GSZ have respect to the deck tempo, a solid non hasty mid late game deck. SFM version seems to me like something powerfull we add just because it's powerfull : / and not because it keeps a sinergy with the deck. We are not very agroish, so why run equipments? our creatures are big enough, so why run equipments?. If our creature dies it would take some time to recast another and spend a turn equiping; agroo or agroo control decks can do it easily than us.
Sheeptoken,
What you're essentially saying is agreeing with what I've been saying for a while. I'm glad we're thinking relatively along the same lines. People agreeing with things I say gives my ego a hard-on. Thank you.
-Matt
i did not yet test timely reinforcements, but will do as i get the time to, but have no haste to do so, as surprisingly allmost noone plays burn and UR delver in my area
what i am more interested in is, how does the card work in the maverick matchup?
the thought of timely reinforcements being good in the maverick matchups seems to be a bit strange, maybe its just me, but i would allways prefer deed in this matchups
about EE, i am as well running 2 in my MD now and they are fantastic, i probably won't be going back to deed (at least in MD) for now. Deed will sit patiently in my sideboard as a 2-off.
on the GSZ and SFM, which is IMO an overdiscussed topic. But i will gladly spend my 2 cents on it^^.
I think SFM is not synergistic, hence will not be included even if its power is not bad at all. GSZ is not bad and helps the deck, but there should not be an overcommitment to this card simply because we will mostly search for either a beater to kill or a hatebear in game 2 and 3 as we do not have lots of space MD, thus making the slots for GSZ to a max of 2-3 in the MD like any utility card.
i for my part am using liliana + loam for a testrun (2 liliana + 1 loam at the moment)
i have to say i definitely love loam, but liliana is somehow a letdown, sure she is extremely strong but not as strong as i hoped she would turn out to be
thus my latest thoughts were cutting both lilianas + 1 other card and add 4th vindicate, second loam and a worm harvest to get more value out of loam. Even if worm harvest is a singleton with loam, fetches and divining top it should be fairly easy to find it when needed.
sorry for the long text, it was quite a time since i did post the last time^^
and for reference my list
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 overgrown tomb
3 godless shrine
1 forest
1 swamp
1 plains
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 volrath's stronghold
1 maze of ith (probably removing for nantuko monastery)
4 goyf
4 bob
4 knight
3 quasali pridemage (going down to 2 and adding a worm harvest in its place)
4 sword to plowshares
3 vindicate (adding 4th)
2 Engineered Explosives
2 liliana of the veil (cutting both)
1 life from the loam (adding 2nd)
3 sensei's divining top
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
the manabase should be fine, though i would like to add 1 or 2 horizon canopys in there for additional draw but the lifeloss is allready heavy, no cyclelands since i really hate CIPT lands and i would only use them if i got 3+ loams in the list with mox and a higher landcount.
maze of ith will probably no longer be needed in the list and it was bothering me quite a bit lately and i really like nantuko monastery allready because a jaceproof beater is quite nice^^.
either way tell me what you are thinking, and again sorry for the extremely long post^^