Well, my prayers are answered.*Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
*sarcasm
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Well, my prayers are answered.*Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
*sarcasm
I played in a local tourney again last night. Like last time, it went horribly. This time it was more the deck's fault than mine.
R1 BYE
I scout. Only like 10 players showed up tonight, so I go and check out what everyone's playing. 3 RUG Delver decks, 1 Grisslebrand Sneak And Show deck, other fun stuff.
R2 TES
G1 I'm on the draw. I mull to 5 for a hand that might have a slim chance. My hand is Lackey, SGC, Matron, Pyrokinesis and Wasteland. Seems better than any 4 at this point. My opponent (Tim, who shamed me for not remembering his name at the time) leads with an Underground Sea and I believe he Ponders. I Waste the Sea. He then plays a Gemstone Mine and Duresses me, getting nothing. I rip a Waste and blow up the Mine. He blanks on a mana source. I rip a Mountain, play Lackey. Lackey connects for SeigGang next turn, and I rip another land to Matron into Piledriver the following turn and Tim scoops.
So I pick up a win against TES.
Game 1
On the draw
On a mull to 5
So that about uses up all my luck for the night and I lose the next 4 games and drop.
G2 I side in a bunch of combo hate, but not enough to turn the tides in my favor. I mull to 6 on the draw and keep a hand with Lackey but no hate. I lose.
G3 My opening 7 has 5 lands. I mull to 6 for no lands. I mull to 5 and see a really slow, really shitty hand with two bad pieces of hate. So i mull to 4 and keep that one. It has some hate, but not good hate, and I lose pretty awesomely to Empty the Warrens.
R2 RUG Delver
G1 I'm on the play and keep a good 7. He has the burn for my Lackey and the Force for my Vial. I then am stuck on lands with expensive gobbos in hand. I have a Pyrokinesis, he has a flipped Delver. Had I recognized that I needed to play for the long game I would have burned the Delver 4 turns earlier. I kept sandbagging the Pyro hoping to get a 2for2 exchange. Of course the next creature he plays is a Nimble Mongoose anyway, and by the time I burn Delver it's too late for me to get back in the game.
It was a mistake to eat all the Delver damage. I should have recognized that once my Lackey and Vial were delt with that I needed to play the long game and kill Delver ASAP. That would have given me more turns to establish a board presence, OR it would have forced him to use up some countermagic on the Pyro.
G2 I mull to 5 again. I lose pretty quickly to 2 Delvers. At one point I managed to connect with a Winstigator. My opponent double Stifled the triggers. I laughed and said, "Well, take 2, Asshole!" He laughed too. This is the second time I've played against this guy with the same decks and he has just had my number every time.
Moral of the story: Against Delver squash the bug as quickly as possible. You need to NOT take damage from it because the deck actually has limitted means of dealing damage to you. They only run 11-12 creatures, so killing their threats quickly really diminishes their ability to put a clock on you.
Do you find this happening a lot? Because then I think going back towards Warchiefs might be better because it just excels you when you are at that point of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I absolutely agree here. I take the same approach to any creature out of a U/W Blade deck...they run so few that removing them usually clears the board for a couple attack phases at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
As for the rest of your report - congrats on the game 1 win vs. TES! I think I speak for everyone when I tell you to keep fighting the good fight. My personal record is abysmal vs. that deck (I've one exactly one game vs. TES in the past year), so it's nice to hear that it's actually possible.
Well, this is disapointing. Why play this over a Mogg Warmarchall?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
It's slower, only slightly bigger but cost the double MWM.
If it had a "dies" trigger, it could be nice.
It IS possible. I don't want to brag here but my tournament-record vs Tendrils-based Storm-Combo ist still positive (16-12). I've started counting back in times when Mystical Tutor was still legal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davran
nothing else needs
Warmarshall might be better costed at 2.. but this guy costs 4 which might be good for the curve. It gives you a better reason to keep Vial at 4 for Ringleaders. Perhaps it might be a good 1'of for Matron?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
I've been wrong about cards before, so the best I can say to you is, well, maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
I think if the format shifts a little, it could be good. It sounds awesome against Zoo for instance, so if they show up again, it might be good.
He is awesome along with Gempalm and Chieftain, so those are plusses, but running more than 1 might clog you with too many expensive goblins.
Hope someone test it for us to see how it goes =]
My tournament record is positive versus combo as well. However, when you play against a player with a very good understanding of combo, the matchup is in their favor. Most people suck with combo, so we scrape in a lot of wins, but the matchup is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Hi all, long time lurker here decided to write a post of gratitude for the knowledge he got from reading this pages. The modern Winstigator & Cheiftain approach to the deck was a eye opener and backed up by a brilliant idea to pack 2 Pyrokinesis in the main led me to back to back wins in the last two 16 man tournaments I played in. This is the build I came up with combining the lists from this pages:
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Rishadan Port
1 Mutavault
9 Mountain
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Mogg Fanatic
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Tarefire
Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Pyrokinesis
+ 5 meta game spots
I don't play wastelands because i soled them :), but the ports have done fine in there place. The list thieves on playing the longest games possible and grinding out games in the late game. In the late game the more mana you have the beater.
I haven't seen people play mutavault bit I relay, relay recommend playing it as a one of. It helps your Incinerators, it gets bigger with Chieftain and it deals extra damage with Scrapper. If you didn't, try it out as a one of, it makes this deck beater.
I haven't played against reanimator jet but I'm a little scared, what do you to borad in and what do you play in the SB for that mach up. Is Chalice good against them ?
The above main is tuned for UW(B), Maverick and RUG
Just found this recorded game from BOM 2012.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZG_O...feature=relmfu
RB Goblins with Cavern
I think he plays a bit too less aggressive. Too much porting. Together with being manascrewed off multiple opposing Wastelands the result is quite imaginable.
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by Marshal
I personally play a lot with reanimator but our playgroup also has a goblin player, so we tested a lot against one another.
I have lost some games against goblins with reanimator and it was almost never due to specific gravehate. Our goblin player used to run 4 grafdigger's cage, but realized this was bad since I would entomb, bounce it and then wipe the board with elesh or beat the crap out of him with iona. Or I would just show and tell elesh in.
We started moving to a more broad approach against combo and now we run 4 thorn of amethyst and 2 chalice of the void. Chalice at 1 is very annoying for reanimator since it negates more than half the deck (as it does for most combo decks). If you combine this with thorn then it becomes challenging to amass 3 mana to bounce chalice (with echoing truth) and even after that the deck needs at least 4 mana to go careful study/entomb reanimate or show and tell. So if you combine this with rishadan port and/or wasteland you can gain enough momentum with goblins to overrun them before they beat you. (remember that you can use cavern of souls to prevent your lackeys from being countered by either the reanimate player and chalice at 1)
Nevertheless it will remain a difficult matchup anyway for goblins.
I don't know which list you tested against but the Reanimator MU is 50-50 at it's worst.
Chalice is a nice trick, but you need something stronger against them: Leyline of the Void.
Reanimator usually doesnt have that many bounce spells (and is not per se willing to board in more than 2 if any). Leyline is uncountarable for them which makes it way more difficult to handle. With a couple of Stingscourgers in MD (which I strongly advice now that Cavern of Souls can make them uncounterable too) S&T is just a bad joke. Even if you don't have Stingscourger ready you can sneak Matron/Ringleader into play which can find Stinger.
Those are your possibilities - of yourse you must keep your opening 7 accordingly (especially when playing with Leyline).
This was a thrashing, unfortunately. I would love to see his decklist though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamflogger
My biggest problem with leyline is that you always have to play 4 in order to be effective. Plus it is only relevant against dredge and reanimator. I feel that chalice and thorn, though not as powerful (hence the "dedicated" for leyline) they answer a lot more matchups that are potentially difficult for goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
I admit that stingscourger is generally strong vs show and tell and reanimator, but you forgot that reanimator also runs sphinx of the steel wind. So if they know you have stingscourger in hand or you are tutoring for them they can drop sphinx and you're forced to bounce one of your own creatures.
Plus most reanimator lists run discard in the form of thoughtseize which can pluck stingy from your hand turn 1. Hell I even reanimated a stingscourger once from an opponents grave to bounce a problematic piledriver that would've otherwise killed me.
I hate Leyline of the Void. If you play it you have to mulligan until you draw it. When mulliganing 3 times your chances to hit at least one Leyline are about 70 percent (i have done the math but it was a while ago, so correct me if I'm wrong). When you lose the first game you need to hit it 2 times in a row which is roughly equal to 50 percent. If you win the first game you need to hit it one time in two games and that's about a 90 percent chance. So to justify playing this card you have to, at least, have a 30 percent chance of wining game one and the card it self needs to literally end the game before the game starts (because you are destroying you hand by muling to it)Quote:
I don't know which list you tested against but the Reanimator MU is 50-50 at it's worst.
Chalice is a nice trick, but you need something stronger against them: Leyline of the Void.
Reanimator usually doesnt have that many bounce spells (and is not per se willing to board in more than 2 if any). Leyline is uncountarable for them which makes it way more difficult to handle. With a couple of Stingscourgers in MD (which I strongly advice now that Cavern of Souls can make them uncounterable too) S&T is just a bad joke. Even if you don't have Stingscourger ready you can sneak Matron/Ringleader into play which can find Stinger.
Those are your possibilities - of yourse you must keep your opening 7 accordingly (especially when playing with Leyline).
How good is Surgical Extraction, it looks like a virtual counterspell for 2 life and it is a broad brush card that has uses vs other decks ?
Adding Thorn looks like a good plan, but playing less then 4 chalices in my meta is wrong (lot of RUG, Burn and a few Belchers, Spiral tides)
I just thought for a second that Shrieking Mogg had flash. Thought it'd be a game changer with Cavern of Souls. Wondered why nobody plays it. Then I checked Gatherer. Then I realized he is unplayable. Now I am sad.
PS- That horrible 4 drop goblin that puts two tokens in play: Tell me why you would possibly want 1 slot in your deck to be him instead of Seige-Gang Commander. "Because he costs less" will not be considered a valid argument.
This is untrue. For reference => StingscourgerQuote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich
In my experience, splashing black moves this match-up to be slightly in goblin's favor because of Warren Weirding and Wort, Boggart Auntie.
If you don't like LotV, Faerie Macabre is an effective, uncounterable, free, non-color-binding hate against Reanimator.
(1) I think I didn't Iexpress myself properly: I was not saying that we should not play Chalice in our SB (or Chalice instead of Leyline). In fact Chalice hasnt left my board for 2 years and it is arguably the best SB for Goblins (if someone wants me to explain Chalice's value I can do it, cause I have done this a hundred times).Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich
I was saying that Chalice against REANIMATOR is cute trick compared to Leyline of the Void. Withoput Leyline the MU suck. We need uncounterable GY hate here. So... either Leyline or Faerie Macabre. Extirpate is to weak here (discarding 2 creatures with Careful study isn't all too rare).
(2) I don't think that graveyard hate is relevant in other MU than Reanimator and Dredge (yeah....and 42Lands....but you know...). So, if you want to spare 4 sllots on GY hate why not spent it on the most powerful one - the one that is [b]hardest to deal with[/card].
@Marshal: So you don't want to take mulligan on graveyard hate against Dredge and Reanimator? I begin to see why those MUs are troublesome for you. You need GY hate on your opening hand to win those MUs. they'll just dance on your graves if you are planning on landing a Relic of Progenitus on turn 3 or drawing into a surgical extraction exactly one turn after they revived one of their chicks.
(3) Stingscourger literally cannot bounce your own creatures.
//EDIT: 2 ninja-points go to ACe/Homebrew for being faster than me.
//EDIT#2: jrw is right about that "Goblin-whose-name-I-will-never-remember-because-he-isn't-worth-it"