Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Viridia
The Nightmare is mainly to be able to Gifts for Witness/Nightmare/Walker/Walker(Sphinx)
I've had alot of Gifts Piles where people just gave me the Walker/Walker because else i'd also have the Nightmare/Witness engine online. It's mainly there to make sure your Walkers are never going anywhere but into hand->play.
Keiga is actually a good idea i might test that.
Also Orders into Body Double + fatty sounds good, however people probably allready side in graveyard hate :(
Do they really? Looking at your list, I wouldn't side in gy hate vs it...only if I had a lot of dead cards and wanted to trade up for marginal value. Also, even if they have gy hate, you still tutor for something to hand -- and B.Double can take things out of your opp's gy, too, if they Crypt you or some such. And that makes sense RE Nightmare -- I'd still like to see one or two other things to really get some solid abuse going, but that's certainly fair. Could also put in a 1x Green Sun to throw into Gifts piles -- people would be pretty scared of it, and it would let you go Gifts -> GSZ, Witness, Nightmare, X, ensuring that you get all 4 cards (eventually), and that you get your Witness engine set up in one shot.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackStarDeceiver
@Tao
Did you test against Goblins? It's still one of the harder matchups as far as i am concerned even if you know what to do with Therapies etc. you will eventually be overwhelmed by the green men. Chieftain + Krenko + Piledriver can one-shot you out of nowhere.
Engineered Plagues seem narrow and need to be doubled to really affect them. Is there anything else besides Crawlspace?
Good point.
Like you said G1 against Goblins is a lot about Cabal Therapy to take out their Matron/Ringleader engine. Unless you would really die to Warchief or Piledriver you should always nuke their draw engine and take a bit of damage. Thoughtseizs can also do that if they only have one.
The game is often that you take quite a bit early damage, then nuke the board and they have 2-3 turns to topdeck a Ringleader/Matron while you are busy finishing their remains and setting up your engine. If they don't and you have untapped with a stable board and Jace or Primeval in play then you win. If you can't prevent them from going nuts with Ringleaders or they kill you before you can clean the board then they win. I like the matchup, it is pretty fun and using Explorers correctly is challenging because brainlessly ramping will often result in them killing you in one big attack. Sometimes you just have to go for it, other times it is correct to hold it back.
For the SB Plague is insanely good against Goblins if you find room in the SB. Don't believe rumours it would be not good or that it is only good if you draw two of them, that is nonsence. One alone kills all Lackeys, War Marshalls, Matrons, SGC/Krenko tokens, Instigators and severely weakens the rest. Unless you draw only lands this is usually wrecking enough that you can take the game easily. Crawlspace (or any Artifact for that matter) is useless against a deck that can Matron for Tuktuk Scrapper and it is worse than Plague to begin with.
So with Goblins in the Meta in the USA I should probably replace the Virtue's Ruin with Engineered Plagues. It is also okay against Maverick / D&T. I edited my list because I forgot about the Goblin trend in SCGs.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
I tested the matchup from the Goblin side and managed to win several games against a singleton Plague, though i think it might be more shifted against some random player at a tourney who either just goes for Krenko -> win! or doesn't know how to interact with Nic Fit style decks properly.
The point you made about using Explorers correctly come up more often by now anyways, as Miracles and Blade may use the mana.
What are our opinions on Memoricide? I'd love to play Slaughter Games but i want to remain in BUG. The real threat that Miracles has against us are Entreats as we play our own Jaces. But Explosives may be unrealiable if UW plays any of them as well preventing us from setting Explosives 0 preemptively.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Damnation.
Kev Walker is an unfavorable match up for Goblins.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Sure if you follow up with the other cards and apply pressure fast enough it works, otherwise it's about the same situation as for Miracles. Enough mana and Ringleader/Matron refuel their game pretty effectively.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
somethingdotdotdot
@qweerios, I tried your previous bug list with a couple of tweaks versus a miracles deck. We did 5 test games (all preboard) and I lost each one. Some of the main problems I encountered were jace, clique/karakas combo, and ironically, counterbalance. The root of the problem all started with him landing a jace and subsequently countering my pulses. He then ended up floating a 5 and 6 with countertop in one game, basically locking me out of my threats. Another game he got by using clique/karakas to protect jace while floating a 3 with balance to counter deed/pulse.
The matchup felt rather difficult as fow basically become another hardcastable counterspell after 1-2 turns and a resolved jace just gives them enough counters to close out the game (terminus also deals with thrun rather nicely). I should mention that I didn't get to resolve a therapy in any of the matches (either not drawn at all or was locked out by balance), but I was wondering how you dealt with jace.
Another concern was that I was rarely happy to draw a liliana in this matchup--miracles have more tops than nic fit as well as a greater capacity to topdeck something amazing (entreat/terminus). In general, the symmetrical discard felt lackluster without loam or fires to break that symmetry. Perhaps I'm using her wrong as the only decks I've used her in had those elements to turn her +1 into card advantage.
G1 against Miracle is unfavorable for any control Nic Fit versions I've ever played. Explorer ramp is inherently flawed against MUs that can take advantage of those basics as well as we do.
@Ayotte,
Yes I think 2 Thragtusk is overkill. His primary purpose is to gain life and persist, not to seal a game (in some MUs its all you need sometimes). I prefer Shroud/Hexproof creatures for that purpose.
To answer the other questions;
-Decay will definitely find a home as a 2-4of in BUG Fit
-Birds is there for the blue mana against Merfolk and a T2 ramp in the absence of a sac outlet
-E Plague helps against the recurrence of goblins. Their ability to refuel makes sweepers less than ideal
@Tao,
Welcome back! I had completely forgotten about your Trinket Mage tech that you suggested at the begining of the thread. I think Trinket is BUG's Rector and I have been looking for a way to include an Academy Ruins engine in the deck. I am looking forward to finding a good Trinket package.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Qweerios, still wondering what the birds does over hierarch or a mana elf besides block a delver or emrakul?
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
They work with Engineered Plague on Human and they make black mana as opposed to Hierarchs ^^
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
It grants double black for a T2 Liliana
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
May I ask why faith's fetters over oblivion ring in rector version? fetters doesn't do shit against omniscience and elesh norn and probably other cards too that I can't think of right now.
And for that matter, as deed doesn't blow up planeswalkers it doesn't rly matter if u have o-ring or fetters on a walker
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Fetters can hit creatures with Shroud/Hexproof, like Thrun and hitting a walker with Fetters prevents them from dropping a second one.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
litenkatt
May I ask why faith's fetters over oblivion ring in rector version? fetters doesn't do shit against omniscience and elesh norn and probably other cards too that I can't think of right now.
And for that matter, as deed doesn't blow up planeswalkers it doesn't rly matter if u have o-ring or fetters on a walker
What BlackStar put, but a few more notes too:
-) If you have a heavy Show and Tell presence in your meta, O-Ring is better. Fetters is better against literally everything else.
-) 4 life is not insignificant, and that 4 life has saved my ass on more occasions than I really care to admit. There have been games vs RUG in particular where I'd fetch it to stick on a land just to gain the life....as they topdeck a bolt that would have been lethal next turn.
-) CMC 4 vs CMC 3 is a huge deal where Deed is concerned. 3 is a commonly used number (something something KotR), whereas 4 is almost never hit. Sure, Deed won't hit 'walkers, but it will hit the enchantment that you're locking them down with.
-) As BSD noted, it shuts down the walker in question basically permanently, because since it's still "in play," the offending deck would have to play a 2nd (to legend rule the first), and then a 3rd before actually representing the same threat. If you O-Ring it, they can just drop another copy, with the 3rd still in deck. Sure, you can kill your O-Ring then to legend rule them, but it makes you jump through another hoop...and who knows what damage the 2nd copy has done while in play.
-) A fringe benefit that people -always- forget about is that you can also use it to lock down offensive lands that we otherwise have virtually no way of interacting with (Vindicate). Turning off Maze of Ith, Academy Ruins, etc can be absolutely huge.
-) Lack of ability to respond. If you're up against Miracle Top, and you really, really need to shut down their Top for some strange reason, you can do that with Fetters, but you can't with O-Ring. If you Rector O-Ring, they can respond to the trigger. If you do Fetters, it comes in attached to the permanent: if they didn't respond to the Rector trigger, there's no way for them to respond at that point. No drawing off Top, no activating Ruins in response, no Bolting their Delver so you don't gain 4 life.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Fetter is actually surprisingly good.
I see what you guys are saying about engineered plague... How many do you think I should run in GB in the SB? Last time I played at my LGS I saw 2 or 3 Folk decks and a couple of goblins as well. So about 20% of my LGS meta. Also is siding them vs Maverick any good? Naming human kills of Hierarchs and Moms while shrinking Knight
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
It grants double black for a T2 Liliana
okay got it.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
EPlague on humans also directly turns Explorer into ramp.
As far as the Trinket package go, what other maindeck 1CMC artifacts are worth it besides Nihil Spellbomb, Top, and EE? So far I have, Executioner's Capsule and maybe Darksteel Citadel
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
EPlague on humans also directly turns Explorer into ramp.
As far as the Trinket package go, what other maindeck 1CMC artifacts are worth it besides Nihil Spellbomb, Top, and EE? So far I have, Executioner's Capsule and maybe Darksteel Citadel
None I think. My list is pretty good^^
I didn't include Capsule because there is not much it can shoot that Explosives can't and I really can't find any room in the list. I wouldn't fault you for playing it, tough. It can get Knight of the Reliquary if you don't have the time or mana for EE on 3 or a random fattie like Hero of Bladehold.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
None I think. My list is pretty good^^
I didn't include Capsule because there is not much it can shoot that Explosives can't and I really can't find any room in the list. I wouldn't fault you for playing it, tough. It can get Knight of the Reliquary if you don't have the time or mana for EE on 3 or a random fattie like Hero of Bladehold.
It can lie in wait against Emrakul. It can even be fetched by a trinket mage off of an SNT
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
To take some tech from Death and Taxes, roll with Leonin Bola as a 1cc artifact to humiliate Show and Tell.
Re: [Deck] Nic Fit (GBW Explorer Zenith Control)
If we're talking Trinket Mage (and ExCap/EE), there needs to be a Glissa, the Traitor IMO. She's a 1-card engine and she's almost playable just by herself as a 3/3, Zenithable Moat.
